An eye for an eye, and forgiveness
I keep noticing references to “an eye for an eye,” but I’ve also noticed a lot of misunderstanding around the phrase.
It was actually meant not literally but as a corrective to previous much harsher codes of justice. See this. It was not about Hatfield-McCoy vengeance, tit for tat; it was about a legal code and setting the proper compensation – which was NOT in kind. There actually weren’t eyes for eyes as far as the Jews were concerned. And yet the phrase is often contrasted with later legal developments and sometimes with Christianity, the idea being that Christian forgiveness replaced Jewish vengeance. No, it did not, because vengeance is not what “an eye for an eye” was about.
However, it is indeed true that Jewish guidance on forgiveness is somewhat different than Christian ideals. Please see this former post of mine for a discussion, but here’s an excerpt:
I’m not sure when the following distinctions began, but in ancient traditional Judaism there have been at least three different words for forgiveness, only two of which are interpersonal and the last of which (kapparah) is the realm of God only. Of the two human ones, the first is “mekhilah,” required only if the offender has taken steps to correct the wrong: “The principle that mekhilah ought to be granted only if deserved is the core to the Jewish view of forgiveness.” Another Jewish word for (and type of) forgiveness is selikhah, which is basically empathy with the transgressor. In Judiasm, it is considered wrong to withhold forgiveness (mekhilah) if the person has asked for it, shown remorse, and demonstrated the desire to act differently in the future. Short of that, forgiveness is not required, although it is certainly permitted (selikhah). The idea is that mekhilah without the person showing remorse and change just encourages further bad behavior.
Makes sense to me.
It sounds just. The transgressor has acknowledgements to make and work to do. Only then, does forgiveness become appropriate to consider.
If justice might require forgiveness of another, it also requires self-defense.
I recall a line attributed to the Talmud, words to the effect: If a man is coming to kill you, preempt him.
I would say the distinction began with the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus Christ, as recorded in Matthew 5:38-39.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-39&version=ESV
If you go to the settings and turn on cross-references, it shows footnotes that reference three passages in the Torah where the “eye for an eye” phrasing is used. Maybe it’s more “retribution” than “vengeance,” but the language is plain enough.
I really can’t comment on later developments in Judaism. Presumably Jesus was commenting on the interpretation of the Torah current at the time.
Watt:
It wasn’t a later refinement. It apparently was always the understanding. I certainly can’t say what Jesus was thinking, but perhaps he wanted to make it crystal clear it was not about vengeance. However, as I pointed out, Judaism and Christianity do differ on the subject of forgiveness.
Forgiveness does not obviate punishment. Nor retribution.The line between vengeance and retribution is fine, but definite.
In the event, I am not opposed to vengeance.
I am a very flawed Catholic.
Forgiveness is not an appropriate action.
Forgiveness is a reaction to sincere repentance.
Nor did Jesus ‘turn the other cheek’ when dealing with the money lenders in the temple. He physically drove them out of the temple…
PS; it’s worth noting that Jesus was born, lived his entire life and died a Jew.
Neo, even this non-Jewish Christian knew that ‘an eye for an eye’ was a vast Jewish improvement on ancient legal codes that went before. And I’m not even a theologian.
Any idea that Jews favored vengeance comes from uninformed ignorant people who have not studied the Scriptures themselves but rather bandy what they’ve heard from others.
Anyone who has delved into the OT and read Numbers knows about the cities of refuge as another means to tamp down ill-conceived revenge until a matter is properly heard and justice rendered.
Anyone who has read Deuteronomy knows that two witnesses are the minimum for condemnation.
I could go on…
i don’t think I could ever forgive, and certainly not forget
https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1719055385112506822
these are the people they showcase
And lest some of the Jewish faith think that Christians are all rainbows and unicorn farts when it comes to forgiveness, please understand that we are commanded, “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord”
and, “From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.”
and, “It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Just so we’re clear, we’re talking about deferral here, not absence of justice.
Bill K:
I don’t doubt that plenty of people know what it means. But over and over I hear or read the words of people who mischaracterize what it means, and so I think I am on safe ground when I say that such misunderstanding is common.
Evil of the type we just witnessed can never be justified, understood or forgiven.
Ignorance of the type one regularly hears on the subject of Israel and Palestine is understandable and forgivable, but
attempts by the ignorant to justify the evil should not be tolerated and must be challenged and corrected. Anyone celebrating the horror should be removed from civil society.
Bill K (6:57 pm) says:
“Anyone who has delved into the OT and read Numbers knows . . .”
“Anyone who has read Deuteronomy knows . . .”
“I could go on . . .”
. . . no need to [smile]. However, I observe that the general level of Biblical literacy has declined precipitously since I was a young man.
This has been brought home to me via my watching “Jeopardy!” (of all things). I observe that precious few contestants, unless they are clergypersons, appear to evidence even the slightest familiarity with the Bible. Yes, there are also the committed Christians and Jews out there, but they’re sort of non-persons these days, if you get my drift.
At this point, many, many people, including educated people, in our culture will draw zero-zilch-nada blanks when it comes to items Biblical.
(For that matter, I observe that the level of just plain basic literacy is declining / has declined of late, but whaddaya say we need not go there today?)
Draco got a similar bad rap with Draconian.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
–Matthew 18:21-22 [KJV]
____________________________
When people speak of Christian forgiveness, I think of Matthew. And what a small person I am.
Some Zen Buddhists work on themselves by meditating on koans — enigmatic sayings like “What is the sound of one hand clapping?”
Christians can keep plenty busy with forgiveness.
Hi Neo…let me humbly wade into the conversation…my apologies if this gets long. I’ll try not to conquer the world in one post.
Certainly, as you note, Old Testament “eye for an eye” was a quantum leap improvement on the unrestrained vengeance most often propagated in the Ancient Near East of pre-Biblical & Biblical times. “Eye for an eye” & the often invoked “four-fold restitution,” & even the “cities of refuge” were governors or brakes on revenge-taking. Justice was always managed by our common accountability before God…and in the end God would have the last word while human justice was expected to be enacted without prejudice.
Christian forgiveness…what I (as a follower of Jesus) forgive in another, is ultimately about neither the “crime” nor the “criminal.” When I forgive someone who has wronged me, from smallest slight to grievous harm, it is first about living in imitation of and obedience to the One who has forgiven me “while we were still his enemies.” (Romans 5:10) I forgive because I have been restored by forgiveness as a “friend” of God & now submit all of me to Him (Romans 12:1-2) to “walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4). If I cling to the “sin” of the one who has “sinned” against me, & refuse to forgive that debt he owes me, I am in jeopardy of being unforgiven. (Matthew 6:15).
It matters not if the blighter who stole my car & set it ablaze feels the slightest remorse for what he costs me. I trust there will be human justice without prejudice & ultimate Divine justice nonetheless. I forgive to set myself free from the anger, bitterness PTSD & burning desire to extract a pound or so of flesh. Me forgiving someone is not dependent on their state-of-heart. It is solely focussed on the Heart that has forgiven me & my desire for my heart to be like His.
The black church a few years back where the nut job white kid shot up a choir practice & killed a bunch of folks…their victim impact statements were rife with forgiveness. Forgiveness does not impede human justice or negate the necessity of punishment that fits the crime, but it sets free the injured party & at some level puts “paid” to my old self seeking to settle the score…in some cases a score that cannot be “settled.” Seriously…how do I “settle” with someone who savages & kills my beloved? Kill them twice? Savage them back? Then what have I become? And what do I gain in return?
Bill K rightly quotes Romans 12:19. Everything I do as a follower of Jesus is tempered first by what he has done for me…forgiving me without any preliminary change of heart on my part (while I was still sinner/enemy) & then by my knowledge that neither this world nor this life are the final arbiters of justice.
Lest someone think I believe the Hamas butchers should get off scot free…? By no means. Human justice requires Israel act to secure its citizens from any further foreseeable threat from Gaza & the West Bank. It appears the IDF is acting to do just that. Divine justice will also have its ultimate say…How? When? What? That’s above my pay grade. However I do know, “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” – Galatians 6:7 (King James for all you purists! 😉 )
Thanks Neo…appreciate your patience with me.
Hammurabi for the win! 🙂
Yes, Neo, you are on safe ground that such misunderstanding is common.
My plea is to conclude that such people are not true Christians.
So many people say they are ‘Christian’, but to be a Christian is to be a disciple of Christ. And to be a disciple is to be a follower. And one cannot be a follower without knowing what instructions to follow.
And furthermore, the NT does not cancel the OT. As Jesus said, “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” Mat 5:17
I get so tired of so called ‘Christians’ saying the OT God was an angry God, but the NT God is a God of love. No, He’s the same God. “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, the sons of Jacob, have not come to an end.” Malachi 3:6
M J R, in response to your statement, “However, I observe that the general level of Biblical literacy has declined precipitously since I was a young man”, have you considered this? “Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first.”
What do you make of that?
I want to bring the hammer down on Hamas. Maybe I could forgive them after I’ve killed them. Not one second before.
Badgers tend to agree with Otters.
And vice-versa.
I think, among some social justice types, you haven’t forgiven until you’ve bent over and asked nicely for another.
Forgiveness is, as has been said, entirely independent of steps taken to defend oneself or others, and of just punishment (Jesus can forgive a guy even before the criminal gets out of prison).
In addition, are we not sometimes to be God’s instruments of justice? How does that look different from vengeance or retribution?
Back in the day, I intervened in a couple of assaults. I wasn’t the intended victim, so I had nothing to forgive. So…where was I on the justice/vengeance/retribution spectrum?
My reading of the New Testament is that Jesus was speaking to us about our relationships to God and to each other as individuals.
He wasn’t speaking to us as nations or judicial systems.
I recall the story of the Roman centurion who came to Jesus because the centurion’s servant was sick. (Matthew 8:5-13)
Jesus did not give the centurion a lecture about being a running dog lackey for the imperialist Roman state, certainly oppressive to Jews.
Instead Jesus marveled at the centurion’s faith.
Bill K:
Yes, that’s what I’m talking about. I see it a lot.
John Guilfoyle; huxley:
I think of the difference between Christian and Jewish ideas of forgiveness as one of emphasis. At least in my understanding, Christian forgiveness emphasizes what is going on internally within the wronged person, whereas Jewish forgiveness emphasizes the effect forgiveness has on the wrongdoer who has not repented and/or changed.
Bill K (8:45 pm) asks, in response to my earlier statement, “have you considered this?”
Well, I may well have considered it at some point in my life, but not recently, to be frank. I am most familiar with the King James Bible, and I was quickly able to locate your citations as 2Thess 2:1-3, reproduced here for convenience:
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first . . . .”
Bill K then asks me, “What do you make of that?”
I make of it exactly what I see it telling me, to wit, that, as one of a gathering who are gathered together in regard to “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” I would do well to not be troubled but to maintain my composure. It is counseling me to be on guard against deceptions, because the day of the Lord shall not come until / unless “apostasy” / “falling away” takes place first.
*** All I am doing here is rewording 2Thess 2:1-3. ***
I am not sure where you’re going with this, but for now I have acceded to your request regarding what I “make of” 2Thess 2:1-3.
Your move.
“Christian forgiveness emphasizes what is going on internally within the wronged person…”
Neo this is somewhat true. But forgiveness in the life of a Christian is what first happens “to me/for me” in Jesus’ death & resurrection. The jail cell is unlocked from outside…I think that’s Bonhoeffer.
It then follows that as a forgiven person I forgive to conform my life externally and internally to Jesus but also in the hope/faith that as I forgive, the same power that transforms me will also transform the other person whom I am forgiving. But what happens for the other person is not my ultimate concern…beyond my ability to really effect.
}}} NEO: It was not about Hatfield-McCoy vengeance, tit for tat
I don’t think it’s as simple as that, however. The simple fact is, the notion of “you fuck me over now, it’ll come back at you later — either I, or someone who knows what you did, will do it to you.” This-Life Karma, if you will. Or The Golden Rule, “Do unto others”. I think this is the real intent of “an eye for an eye”.
That’s been actually, mathematically proven by the entire Game Theory aspect of the Iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma.
Which is singularly interesting, because the nature of the Single-time Prisoner’s Dilemma is pretty depressing: you’re better off screwing people over than cooperating…
BUT, when analyzed as an iterated process, which it is in The Real World — there is not just one single interaction but multiples, and thus “reputation” matters: it instead rewards cooperation.
The fact that this is tied to the edict of the Christian God (same as the Jewish God) is… interesting.
The universe of human behavior actually rewards cooperation, and doesn’t punish it. Strange. And wonderful.
}}} I get so tired of so called ‘Christians’ saying the OT God was an angry God, but the NT God is a God of love. No, He’s the same God. “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, the sons of Jacob, have not come to an end.” Malachi 3:6
My take on it all:
———————-
I would assert that what changed was not God, but the message he was putting forth to humans.
Consider the notion — the whole “Garden of Eden” thing. The Tree in question is often referred to as “The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”.
Now, consider Adam and Eve as primitive, animalistic. God, not wanting to force us to become human, gave us an actual choice. He did so knowing our nature enough that we’d make the choice he wanted us to make, but he still left it our choice.
So we ate of the fruit, and gained that knowledge — of good and evil, of justice and injustice, fair and unfair, and decency and compassion and all the other stuff that goes in with that as a gestalt.
Now, at that point, we looked around at the “Garden of Eden”, and “Holy shit, this place is hardly the paradise we’d thought it was!!” We now SAW THINGS and recognized the REALITY as we’d never seen it before. Hence, God did not “throw us out” of the Garden. It stopped being a paradise because of what we now saw, with the beginnings of Human eyes
Now, we are, still, at this time, not very civilized, pretty barbaric, and only a little better than animals.
But, with time, that improved. We became less and less animalistic, more and more civilized, and closer to what we think of as Human. And thus, the message from God — the various aspects of the Talmud, the Ten Commandments, etc., was tempered to match those marginally less brute Humans, and those marginally less brutal times. But it was still pretty brutal, all around. It was the instruction of an “Angry” God, because that was all Humans were ready to take. Life was cruel and harsh. Expecting it to be anything else was improbable and unreasonable.
I mean, you look back on 2nd Kings 2:23
: From there, Elisha went up to Bethel, and as he was walking up the road, a group of boys came out of the city and jeered at him, chanting, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” : Then he turned around, looked at them, and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Suddenly two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. : And Elisha went on to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.…
Now, I can’t speak for you guys, but… this seems a bit disproportional. Sure the punks deserved to be punished for disrespecting Elisha, but… to be ripped limb from limb by two BEARS? That seems a bit over-the-top to modern sensibilities. There’s no proportion to it.
But, if you consider in the context of a more brutal time, God’s message had to be more brutal, more savage, or else it would not be respected.
Fast forward hundreds of years, and how you have Christ speaking upon the Mount. Humans are more civilized, less brutal — still more than we are today, but certainly better than in Elisha’s time. And he starts to soften the message, and God’s expectations of Humanity are stronger, higher, more civilized. So he gives them a message that pushes them towards more civilized behavior. One inclined much more towards love, charity, kindness. Because Humans are ready for it.
And things have gone further and further — we now not only don’t accept many of the behaviors of a millennia ago, we now don’t accept the behaviors of a couple hundred years ago. Punch and Judy are no longer “funny”. We no longer want our kids to read the original Grimm’s Tales. Slavery is wrong. Racism and Sexism are wrong. Society — and God — expects better of us.
I think an awful lot of the various aspects of the Bible seem to me to be pushing and promoting us to move from those barely Human animals we were after Eating The Fruit, to a higher kind of being.
We’ve still got a long long way to go, but we are steadily improving.
FWIW, “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” refers, according to traditional Jewish commentators, to MONETARY compensation for a wrong done (we’re not here talking about murder).
IOW, the perpetrator must pay equitable damages. No more, no less.
Justice must be done.
(In other instances, a person who has a slave/servant is also obligated to free that slave/servant if the former causes the latter certain kinds of bodily injuries, e.g., eye.)
And there are also stringent laws WRT animal owners whose animals kill human beings or other animals…etc.
(Which brings up the issue of dog maulings: for the life of me I cannot understand why there are so many dog maulings still “allowed” to occur in certain Western countries…)
IMO true Evil can’t be forgiven, and there is no remorse from Islam, they tell you it’s part of their belief.
I frequently hear it asserted that “Love they neighbor as thyself” is a Christian (implicitly in contrast to Jewish) tenet from the Sermon on the Mount, neglecting the fact that it of course is from Leviticus 19:18. In addition, Hillel (before Jesus) is quoted as saying “What is hateful to you, do not do to others” is the essence of the Torah. Interestingly, per Wiki, the Muslim version is “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.” It would seem that “brother,” in practice at least, is much narrower than “neighbor,” probably only referring to fellow Muslims.
And from the “I for an I” File, (courtesy of the Narcissist in Chief)….cross-filed with the “EVERYTHING ‘HE’ SAYS IS A LIE” Dossier….
“National Archives Sued, Reveals Existence Of 82,000 Pages Of Joe Biden Emails Using Pseudonym”—
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/national-archives-sued-reveals-existence-82000-pages-joe-biden-emails-using-pseudonym
Further proof that a HYUGE swath of the Federal Government (including, alas, the Security Services and, heh, the DOJ) is a fully paid subsidiary of that International Crime Syndicate otherwise known as “Biden”, Inc. (complete with obligatory pseudonyms, to spare us the pain, anguish and discomfort of finding out the Truth, no doubt—indeed “Biden” is, to his immense credit, considerate to a fault—could it be that religious upbringing…?)….
But TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well…Jesus, along with most if not all of his followers, was—yes, rather ironically—a member of the Pharisee, as opposed to the Saducee, “Team”—which is how our illustrious “President” might put it (though maybe “camp” might be more accurate in this case).
This being the case, he (and the Apostles and those who penned the Gospels) would merely be quoting Pharisaic interpretations of the Law, such as the one you quoted; and when criticizing the Pharisees, which he/they were wont to do—yea, even vociferously—he/they were criticizing them “from the inside”, as it were….
Time for a “re-evaluation”? (To be sure, if so, we’re rather late to the party…)
M J R, here’s my take.
1. Polls consistently show a falling away from the faith (aka apostasy) in the Western world.
2. We commenters are pretty united in voicing our thoughts on the decline in morality, which I attribute to #1.
3. Western nations are increasingly ambivalent in foreign affairs (immigration, what is ‘just war’, trade relations) due to loss of moral consensus (#2).
4. The US in particular is being hypocritical now with Israeli support due to #3.
5. The US foreign affairs stance is seen around the world as a decline in its superpower status.
6. The world is now increasingly free to pursue its slide toward Jew-hatred without fear of the US.
7. Prophecy, both OT & NT, indicate an end-times that will be horrible for Israel before its recovery and glory (c.f. Gog & Magog in both Ezekiel & Revelation)
So, “the times, they are a’changin” (as in end times). And I’m increasingly hearing that not just Christians think we’re moving into those ‘interesting times’ but also adherents to Judaism as well as Islam.
That’s where I was going – America down, Israel increasingly “a flaming torch among sheaves” Zech 12:6
Barry Meislin, what makes you say Jesus was a member of the Pharisee team? I’ve never thought that, nor read that in Christian literature.
By analogy, if the Pharisees were Republicans and the Sadducees Democrats, then Jesus was an Independent.
And Barry, if I may, surely you’ve known Catholics who are Catholic in name only, as Biden is (e.g. views on abortion), the same as my medical school roommate was a Reformed Jew who kept some of the rituals (went home for Sukkot), but whom otherwise I couldn’t tell from an atheist in our various conversations.
So Biden is hiding behind the skirts of his “upbringing” as far as I can tell, because it gives him standing with drive-by voters who don’t dig any deeper.
Actually, one might look at the Pharisees as more open to interpretation and nuance (WRT the law) than the more elitist Saducees (named after the High Priest Tzadok, or Zadok) whose interpretations were more strict, i.e., less mutable (or as the saying goes, “written in stone”…).
As for not finding any mention of this in Scripture, I don’t doubt it.
(Though the reason may well be that one is SUPPOSED to view the Pharisees as da bad guys…)
– – – – – – – – – – – –
And for those atheists, agnostics and or fence-sitters out there, here’s Actual Proof(TM) of the existence of the Almighty…or Possible Actual Proof, thereof….
“Soros-Backed Activist District Attorney Gets Robbed – Becomes Victim Of Her Own System”—
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/soros-backed-activist-district-attorney-gets-robbed-becomes-victim-her-own-system
– – – – – – – –
WRT Biden’s spirituality (and I have no doubt that he believes he IS a spiritual critter, at least when he can remember to do so), I’ve always felt that he and Pelosi should get together and found a new church…
Question is, though, what to call it…
Barry Meislin:
(Which brings up the issue of dog maulings: for the life of me I cannot understand why there are so many dog maulings still “allowed” to occur in certain Western countries…)
You’ll have to elaborate on that “allowed”. i don’t think that word is accurately applied.
Barry Meislin:
“Robbed?” Certainly not! She participated in an act of righteous reparations!
All oppressors must participate and give back to the community! 🙂
Well, yes, you have a point; though I have no doubt that she would insist that she’s ENTITLED to RECEIVE reparations and object very strongly to having to actually pay them.
(Though, given her salary and life style, what are the chances that she hasn’t really thought this thang through entirely….? Unless she comes to the perfectly understandable conclusion that her muggers are tools of all those White Devils out there….)
…As “Spiked!” decides to try its hand at “Socio-Political Humour”….
“We must defend the right to hate”—
https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/30/we-must-defend-the-right-to-hate/
I believe the argument—ingenious in its own way, in fact practically irrefutable—is that since “Silence is Violence”; AND “Hamas-Supporting Protestors Are Most Definitely NOT Silent”; ERGO “Hamas-Supporting Protestors are Non-Violent”.
(Well, it makes sense to me….kinda….)
White Devils™ are everywhere, hiding in plain sight. Always up to evil …..
Bill K (9:18 am), agreed in the main; there may be devils in the details, but those are not explicit [nor should they be, lest you pen a voluminous tome of observations (which I would then be obligated to read [smile])].
“America down”, definitely, although it saddens and pains me to acknowledge it.
“Israel increasingly ‘a flaming torch among sheaves'”, a work in progress, to be certain. It remains to be seen.
I fancy myself to be Bible-literate (which is where this conversation began), but that does not mean that I necessarily buy into various Biblical prophecies concerning the end-times, including those featuring USA and Israel as key actors.
Thank you for responding!
I often think ir would be significant if we could get the poorer parts of the inner cities to embrace an eye for an eye. What an improvement that would be since violence would definitely drop.
Barry Meislin on October 31, 2023 at 9:13 am
“… and those who penned the Gospels” might very well have been Roman propagandists trying to keep the Jews from agitating and revolting again, after the 66-70 AD conquest/destruction of the 2nd Temple. It seems to have worked for many of the Gentiles, but not so much for the Jews, who still revolted again (one last time) via the Bar Kokhba revolt (132-136 AD).
See: James S Valliant & Warren Fahy, Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity [2018] https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Christ-Emperors-Invented-Christianity/dp/1949914615/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
Heh! Making the Christians the “Realist” camp?
Cute!
(Christianity trying to save Jews from themselves once again…or, actually, from the get-go!)
But why not go one step further and say “…Roman propagandists trying to subvert that [pesky] little country”…(or “pesky little religion”)…
Which is, of course, a bit of a stretch…but if so—though it’s probably just a bit too “post hoc” to be the case—it sure came back to bite Rome in the backside… But then I’m always open to wry irony…AKA “wryony”?
(Probably time to reread “Master and Margarita” one more time…. sigh…)