Tyrants don’t care about their people
I’m up to episode number five of Jordan Peterson’s series on the Book of Exodus. It’s on YouTube, and it’s a fascinating in-depth analysis of the Biblical story in tremendous detail, along with philosophical and even political ramifications. I haven’t finished that particular video yet, but this part stood out when I heard it. It’s a discussion of the orientation of tyrants towards the people in their own countries, and it rang true to me. Here’s the clip:
And then later I read this observation from commenter “JJ” on the post about Biden’s non-remarks concerning the fire victims in Maui:
I’s really hard to believe that Biden isn’t trying to make some political capital for himself by leading the charge to get help to Maui. He doesn’t care. Not enough Democrat votes to worry about in Maui.
The I realized that they want this to be really bad. They can claim that climate change is responsible, and it demonstrates that climate change is an existential crisis. Cunning and despicable.
The Democrats really are the deplorables.
No compassion, no morals, and only a lust for power. When will the moderates and low information voters wake up?
When the power of corrupt men and women becomes entrenched, they can take their masks off and end the pretense of caring. In Joe Biden’s case, it’s probably helped along by his cognitive issues. But for Joe it’s not just an effect of creeping senility, and maybe not even primarily that.
My reading of Biden is that his motivation to become a politician has always been to get power and perks. Politics is pretty much the only adult life he’s ever known, and even in his early 20s he said he intended to become president, but that desire didn’t seem to have been in the service of any special goal involving the US and its destiny. That’s why he’s the perfect vessel for the leftists who control the Democratic Party these days.
But say what you will about the flaws of Trump, I don’t think it’s ever been in doubt that he cares deeply about America and Americans. Yes, he’s also a narcissist, but he was living a great (and narcissistic) adult life for a long long time before entering politics. He didn’t have to do run for the presidency to become famous or to earn tons of money or to marry a beautiful woman; he already had all of that and more. He became a presidential candidate because he felt America and Americans were sinking, and he thought he could make things better – could make America great again.
“They want this to be really bad.”
Yes, the “climate emergency” is one piece of it. I’ve been even more alarmed by all the rhetoric of “endangered” trans or gay or black people. My copy of the Audubon Society magazine came a month or two ago: there was a huge spread on how a black ornithologist had trouble following her profession because it was so “dangerous” for her to go into parks and forests where she might run into white supremacists. A ridiculous example of Wokeness, or a chit being laid down in a “civil rights” Federal government expansion of powers?
Some major retailer (can’t remember who — I was so enraged, I instantly deleted it, but a large one) recently sent me a promotion: buy something and they’d donate to a charity. Which charity? A “rainbow railroad” charity dedicated to extracting gay and trans people from states where they were endangered and relocating them where they’d no longer have to fear for their lives.
I may be paranoid, but I see the same hand at work there: a “civil rights” emergency, justifying….
Not just too few votes to worry about, mostly locked in as Democrats, at the federal level for sure. Once the Dems think they own your vote they begin to despise you.
That is why I can’t understand Republican and/or conservative Never-Trumpers.
Ira on August 15, 2023 at 11:41 am
Many of the anti-Trump Republicans are the part of the party who are snobbish about many things. They can’t stand being associated with a man with such low taste. He drinks Diet Coke and eats McDonalds not just without complaint but with zest. Even though he has always had money he is just so déclassé. Plus many of them are also there for the perks, power, and money. Trump looked like he might derail the gravy train.
Remember that David French, the ultimate pharisee wannabe, praised the character of Joe Biden and denounced Trump as being so horrible in character that no one should vote for him.
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30 MILLION Americans say violence is justified to keep Trump from power: UChicago study
This is disturbing. It says so much about the absence of any redeeming virtue in the average Democrat.
Where are the honest, moral, patriotic Democrats? It’s not possible to view what is going on, in total, and not figure out that the party is totalitarian. Not even bias is enough to explain their applause for fascism.
This is an important topic IMO.
1) Politicians are either very capable liars or, at a minimum, the impulse and payoff to go that route on occasion is strong.
2) This point is a crucial and sometimes subtle distinction: Does a leader or gov. system really consider the value of an individual human life to be precious or sacrosanct?
There was an old Wall Street Journal article where someone had a long train-ride conversation with a couple Chinese students perhaps in the early 1990’s, not long after China opened up. Query: What is the most significant thing that you notice about America? Answer: The respect for an individual’s rights and life.
An example of a subtle version of this: The NICE management system for U.K. healthcare. If one is older or less than very functional, then they are more expendable in that system.
3) The obvious and no doubt somewhat valid main point of neo’s post is that, they just don’t care you or human lives in general. On the Democrat side, they are primarily grifters. A couple of my favorite movies about grifters, which I think have valid lessons in them, are “Grifters” (1990) and “House of Games” (1987).
Grifters is such a dark movie, but has great performances. In both films, the grifters take some pride in the notion that they are not violent people. And yet they are riding a very tricky edge and very bad things will happen. Caused primarily by them. In House of Games the “mark” maybe be a worse person than the grifter, but don’t lose sight of the fact that the grifter is a very bad person, and the motivation for the whole sequence of events.
4) I believe that many of the power brokers in the Democrat party universe really believe the Malthusian nonsense that the planet has maybe twice the human population than the “sustainable” level. This is an ultra dangerous attitude.
Here is a tiny example:
https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2023/02/21/james-cameron-i-can-relate-to-marvel-villain-thanos-killing-billions-of-people/
The original director’s cut ending to Cameron’s movie “The Abyss” has half the world’s population being killed off in a series of mega-tsunamis.
The simplest explanation for never-Trump is the best- follow the money, prestige, and lifestyle.
I’m a pure-bred deplorable, but I recognize that a good chunk of my very upper middle class lifestyle is due to government programs. Programs such as Soc Sec, Medicare, other deficit spending that my grandchildren will be paying for , one way or the other. My very cushy retirement plan is built on tax breaks over the past several decades, and now allows me to live the rest of my life without worrying about running out of money, and will likely be able to leave a good chunk to my kids. I attended a state supported professional school, and state action allowed me to earn a much above average salary for many years, putting me in a very good place financially.
I’m not about to unilaterally give it up, but will cheerfully give a good chunk of it up if Trump or someone similar tells the truth about it and starts to dismantle the whole thing before it collapses. I want my grandchildren to have a life that is at least as good as mine has been.
Democrats, never-Trumpers? They are the ones who want the current candy store to stay open until they die, or are doing their best to insulate themselves from the consequences when the current system collapses of its own weight.
Follow the money.
This is where stan jumps the shark:
Does stan actually know if the 6% who are all in on violence against conservative Americans are representative of the average Democrat?
Probablly not, but that’s just IMO.
That is why I can’t understand Republican and/or conservative Never-Trumpers.
When someone says it’s not about the money, it’s about the money. The donor class has run the party since Coolidge. Maybe since Lincoln. When their interests coincide with the middle class, like small business owners, they are helpful. When, like now, they don’t we will see a situation like we have now. Trade with China, open borders all sound fine to them when the financialization of the economy has taken place. The billionaires don’t make anything anymore. Apple = China. Black Rock = China. The middle class is not important.
Trump disrupted that pattern and has to be destroyed. His history is full of stories where he valued workers and is comfortable with them.
I think this will end with at least an attempt at assassination. That 30% of the population really hates him. The comparison with Huey Long has some validity. I’ve read a biography of Long. Long’s economic ideas were wrong but not unusual for the time.
“Liberalism is a Mental Disorder” … their complete lack of ’empathy’ proves it. imo
Peterson’s one heckuva natty dresser!
“…David French, the ultimate pharisee wannabe…”
Great line, stan!
Trump was never going to become a tyrant. His life wasn’t focused on politics or power (or ideology). He did a lot of good for the country. He was also having fun.
I suspect that for the NeverTrumpers, anyone who didn’t receive the Establishment stamp of approval was a potential threat. They didn’t see or want to see how much of a threat the Establishment itself could be.
The idea of the tyrant as someone who can’t control his impulses may have influenced the NeverTrumpers, but it’s the people who can control, direct and focus their impulses on attaining and consolidating power who are more dangerous. Trump was disciplined enough to accomplish things as president, but he was never focused on crushing his enemies and consolidating power. His opponents are.
_______
What is an “average Democrat”? An average voter, average activist, or average officeholder? The average voter may only be marginally involved or interested in politics. The average Democrat activist or congressperson may be someone who would have been regarded as a fanatic 40 years ago.
I’m really looking forward to watching this series.
I don’t know folks. Trump had money and fame. The only thing he didn’t have was power. And it not like he hadn’t had his eye on power for some time – witness his Reform Party presidential run in 2000, more than twenty years ago and sixteen years before he ran for the Republican nomination.
Love Trump or hate him, I don’t buy the argument that he had to be in it for the right reasons because he was already rich. Folks who become fabulously wealthy while on the public payroll deserve a special kind of contempt, but don’t underestimate the allure of power, even to the wealthy.
Interesting, I just commented in an email that, When the political power structure flaunt their corruption rather than hiding it, it is time to really worry. We have gone a long way down the road to Banana Republic status.”.
West Texas Intermediate Crude; My position is similar to yours, only add USN retirement to the mix. Of course that was paid for in sweat equity., and not being home when children were born or graduated, etc. SS was paid in to for over 40 years–although I tricked the actuaries by living so long. Medicare may be a good deal, but it is not free. We all pay into Medicare (even though my USN “contract” promised that I would have life time health care from the DOD). The 401K & IRA tax breaks were nice; but required individual initiative–and I have paid a tax on them every year for over 15 years. But like you, I would have forgone parts of that package in exchange for a simple tax system with no loop holes for anyone, rich or poor.
BTW, “Never Trumper” has become the invective of choice by his supporters. That is not an accurate description of everyone who does not want Trump to be the GOP nominee. For instance, unlike Trump, I pledge to vote for the GOP candidate. But, I do not think Trump can win a general election, and if he should the nation will remain divided, perhaps fatally so, for the foreseeable future. Any one who looks at the situation fairly, will admit that Trump exacerbated the antipathy toward himelf with his gratuitous insults to friend and foe alike. Like a cancer this has metastasized to a large segment of the electorate . No, I am not excusing the DOJ and the other sleaze balls who are using the Courts to attack him. I simply believe there are better choices, and do not understand the “Only Trumpers” who are willing to go down a very treacherous slope with him.
Om,
silly rabbit. We could spend all day and enumerate all the sick, nasty, vicious policies that Democrat voters embrace which kill millions of people around the world every year, deny basic human rights, and support totalitarian fascism. But what’s the point?
You want to excuse them by explaining that they are all too stupid and too ignorant to be held responsible for the hell on earth that they support. I have more respect for their intelligence than you. So I hold them responsible for the results they cheer for and celebrate.
Difference.
Maybe I haven’t been paying attention, but the cause of the Maui fire hasn’t been disclosed yet, has it? The longer this goes on, the more I think it’s probably going to turn out to be something that’s inconvenient to the left, e.g. arson, maybe even by some climate fanatic.
Incidentally, I thought Biden was going to to make some “climate emergency” declaration this week. What I expect will go along with that will be an address echoing Carter’s “moral equivalent of war” horses**t, and a plea to voluntarily inconvenience ourselves by driving less, setting our thermostats to 78 or above (and 55 in the wintertime), eat less meat, and so on. Of course, there will be an implied threat that if we don’t do these things, they will be made compulsory. And if they find they can’t actually throw you in prison for not going along, get ready for $10 a gallon gasoline, your smart thermometer not allowing you to adjust its settings, a “sin tax” on meat (just like cigarettes and alcohol), etc. etc.
Hi. Very interesting posting.
“Tyrants don’t care about their people”
Yes, well sometimes “the people” ask for it. They beg for it. They bloody well insist upon it.
Lucky for them they were just told to go to their cities …
I was incredibly impressed by Trump’s strict adherence to Federalism, especially during the pandemic. I can’t imagine a recent President who would not have used the pandemic to implement emergency actions beyond the enumerated powers. On more than one occasion Trump voiced disagreement with a path a state was taking in the pandemic, but he never interfered with state sovereignty.
Trump is the battlefield where America lives or dies.
We don’t always get to fight on the ideal battlefield. Especially when we are attacked. When attacked we have to fight where we are with the people and weapons that are at hand.
The forces of darkness have chosen to make their torture of Trump the final act in their gutting of the constitution and their imposition of totalitarian rule. If Trump goes down, the republic cannot stand. There will never be another honest election in our lifetimes.
Anyone whose decision as to whether or not to fight for America is predicated on whether they find Orange man a wee bit too icky is neither a patriot, nor a person worthy of any respect.
Sgt. Joe Friday:
“the cause of the Maui fire hasn’t been disclosed yet, has it? ”
I heard yesterday, some are blaming the electric company which was supposed to shut off some power whenever the wind got above a set threshold.
They did not.
So perhaps wind damaged power lines, etc., sparked fires.
That sure happens in California.
I’m very much enjoying the Exodus series. I was particularly interested in the discussion about the idea that the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and how that translation and interpretation was more akin to ‘strengthening” his heart, and not removing Pharaoh’s free will at all.
I do wish I better understood some of what Peterson is speaking about when he goes into details about psychology and Jung, etc.,, but the good thing about these videos is that I can re-watch them.
Gingrich:
‘We are drifting towards the greatest constitutional crisis since the 1850s. This indictment is a desperate effort by a corrupt machine to destroy their most dangerous opponent, in a way which obliterates the Constitution.”
Even icky people have rights.
stan continues with his shark jumping but needs a puppet or Charlie McCarthy to speak for all Democrat voters, because stan deals in us (stanites) and them (non-stanites). Black or white, easier that way.
“pm” is “om” fat fingers on the smartphone
Political violence seems to be the left or the lost. Democrats don’t temper their extremes and both parties silence the lost.
Martin said, “Once the Dems think they own your vote they begin to despise you.” I think that summarizes the Dem party’s attitude towards black Americans.
“‘pm’ is ‘om’ fat fingers on the smartphone
Obvious to us regulars. 🙂
Very apt, DNW. We humans don’t seem to be quick learners.
Rufus T Firefly:
Just trying to help stan so he doesn’t misdirect his outrage. 🙂
Time for the lunchtime walk, 100 degrees +, but minimal humidity!
There is the power to get things done, which one assumes people in politics probably want. If they didn’t want that power what’s the point of voting for them? Then there is raw power for power’s sake, and the power to crush enemies. And then there is the empty pomp and the prestige of being Number One.
Trump wanted and attained the power to get many things done for the country, and he wanted the attention that came from being president and being on television all the time, but I never saw him grabbing for power or trying to suppress opposition. He didn’t want to do that, probably didn’t know how, and didn’t care to learn how. Indeed, Trump liked jousting with the press and the Democrats. A day when he didn’t hear what CNN and the NYT were saying about him and couldn’t comment on it was a day wasted for Donald Trump.
Maybe most Democrats don’t support violence against their opponents. But they are not pushing back against those that do. When I quit voting Democrat, around the same time as neo, I noted that not only had the hard leftists taken over the party’s agenda but that the party “elders” who should have known better were letting it happen for political reasons. Biden himself, good ol’ “lunchbucket Joe”, is an iconic example of this.
om,
Have a good walk. About to go on a long bike ride. We are having a spate of glorious weather in my neck of the woods. Usually hot and humid in August, but so far, so glorious!
The trouble with arguing about whether “tyrants don’t care about the people they rule” is that, if you take the skeptical position, you end up getting the No True Scotsman response.
Who is a tyrant, and who isn’t? Usually the answer will contain one who doesn’t about his people, and that makes it tautological. The debate over Julius Caesar, alone, would fill several libraries.
@DNW:And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
Only the TENTH! Sign me up! For anyone in the top 50% of household income it’s way more than a tenth.
I’m skeptical that tyrants “don’t care about their people” in general, or that their tyranny would be mitigated if they did.
The kind of “care” that someone even in a position to be a tyrant could possibly act on, on a national scale, is a care for abstract classes of humans*. In their personal capacity they may well be loving and kind to those immediately around them. But that doesn’t really matter, because the decisions they make, no matter how well intentioned, are of a kind that can hurt or kill individual humans.
Even the most moral and personally kind of US Presidents have made decisions that hurt or killed large numbers of people they never saw.
*”Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient’s soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary… Think of your man as a series of concentric circles, his will being the innermost, his intellect coming next, and finally his fantasy. You can hardly hope, at once, to exclude from all the circles everything that smells of the Enemy: but you must keep on shoving all the virtues outward till they are finally located in the circle of fantasy, and all the desirable qualities inward into the Will. It is only in so far as they reach the will and are there embodied in habits that the virtues are really fatal to us… All sorts of virtues painted in the fantasy or approved by the intellect or even, in some measure, loved and admired, will not keep a man from our Father’s house: indeed they may make him more amusing when he gets there.” –Screwtape
DNW goes straight to the proper source material…but flip to the prophets as well and see how well the story ends for the self-appointed “elites.”
Human pride will be brought down, and human arrogance will be humbled.
Only the Lord will be exalted on that day of judgment.
For the Lord of Heaven’s Armies has a day of reckoning.
He will punish the proud and mighty and bring down everything that is exalted. – Isaiah 2:11-12
I suspect there’ll be some other kinds of “reckoning” between now and then…but reckoning there will be.
I’m humbled that Neo selected my comment to make her [point about politicians and tyrants not caring about people who they can take for granted.
The depth of philosophical and theological knowledge here is amazing. It’s nice to be in such company.
Part of my point was about how the Democrats take their voters for granted. The other part was how they will allow their voters to suffer if it’s to make a bigger point. I have no doubt that they are going to use this as a symbol of apocalyptic climate change. It goes like this:
“The Earth has a fever and it got out of control in Maui. If we don’t eliminate CO2 emission, your island, city, county, etc. will be next. We must get rid of fossil fuels NOW!”
We’ll see.
“When the power of corrupt men and women becomes entrenched, they can take their masks off and end the pretense of caring. In Joe Biden’s case, it’s probably helped along by his cognitive issues.”
That there’s little to no concern by Biden’s ‘advisers’ with Biden’s callous indifference to the plight of Lahaina’s residents is proof that the democrat leadership, both elected and non-elected are now convinced that “they can take their masks off and end the pretense of caring”.
Ira states, “I can’t understand Republican and/or conservative Never-Trumpers.”
Martin responds, “Many of the anti-Trump Republicans are the part of the party who are snobbish about many things.”
It is not in their financial interest nor in their perceived status to support a populist movement.
Bauxite,
“Love Trump or hate him, I don’t buy the argument that he had to be in it for the right reasons because he was already rich.”
Trump’s motivation was not and is not one of power for power’s sake. Rather, he saw the Presidency as an opportunity. To confirm to posterity his greatness by leading the fight to make America great again. As always its about ego combined with his deep concern with where the country has gone wrong and his certainty that he is the man who can show the way to America’s restoration. Given his goal, I can easily overlook his egotism.
“I do not think Trump can win a general election, and if he should the nation will remain divided, perhaps fatally so, for the foreseeable future.” Oldflyer
Whomever the President, the nation will remain divided. Our differences are not just fundamental, the Left will not settle for less than total domination. There is nothing too depraved, no action too unthinkable for them. The end justifies whatever the means. It takes two sides to make peace but only one to make war. The left is at war with not just we on the right but with any liberal not fully on board with the agenda/narrative. Liberal’s willful blindness, like Dershowitz… are enabling the fashioning of the woke chains intended for humanity’s future enslavement.
Following up to GB:
There is a concept that the highest form of politics is to use it to get bad people to do good things- one need not worry about what good people do, and there are always bad people…
So, even assuming that PDJT is guilty of all that he is accused (i believe none of it, but for the sake of argument…), that makes him a bad person who did and will do a lot of good things. Furthermore, all the bad things he allegedly did were directed against worse (than him) people, so I don’t hold any of it against him.
My only concern about him winning the R nomination is that he would lose a race that some other R could win.
We can draw all the circles and arrows we want, and convince ourselves one way or the other, but the answer to that is unknown and unknowable and IMO not worth worrying about. Maybe the D’s are indicting him because they think it makes him more likely to be nominated and they really believe that he’ll be easier to beat than RDS. I’m not about to take advice from them under any circumstances; it’s just as likely that all the legal troubles will sideline him, or that he would actually win more votes than RDS, etc.
GB, perhaps your response to my prediction is valid. On the other hand there are faint indications that segments of the “silent majority” may be coming awake, and nudging the pendulum to swing ever so slightly.
I have some hope that the right person can capture that force. The Democrats, and the (progressive) crazies who have no allegiance can be crushed. But it will take someone who can mobilize a great force. It is out there, intimidated and dormant at present.
Obviously, I don’t think that Trump can do it. He has a guerilla army that is very loyal; but, it is inadequate for the great conflict.
I see a lot of references to Trump’s motivations. I grant the possibility that they applied to his initial entry into politics. I don’t see the evidence to support that they apply to his current actions. I see a gargantuan ego that overshadows everything. His tormentors have attacked his ego and he will scorch the earth rather than relent.
There was a President who loved the country. He was a productive President, but a controversial figure. When the dynamic surrounding him reached the point that a continued fight to hold on to power would damage the country, he resigned. His name was Richard Nixon.
Even LBJ, although no one can be sure of his motives, stepped aside when it became clear that his time was past.
Trump is not the issue, although many want to believe he is. If he stepped aside, who would be in their sights next? Trump is a symbol of the issue. The issue is who will control the levers of power? If Trump steps aside, will they go easy on the next frontrunner? Will they not try to rig the elections? Will they not prosecute or persecute other Republicans for political activity, which they deem criminal? Do you see a bed of roses ahead if Trump stepped aside? You have more confidence in the good will of the elites who are running things in the Democrat party than I do.
I say that all people who love liberty and a justice system that is fair, should be enraged by what is happening to Trump. He’s not a likable person to many (I find him to be hard to like), but he’s not a criminal. I am on his side in the fight against the Democrat lawfare and I’m on the side of whoever wins the GOP nominations. If it’s Trump, he has my support. If it’s any other GOP candidate, I’m supporting him/her.
This is about not criminalizing political activity. If they can do it to Trump, that will make a mockery of our Bill of Rights and the end of free speech as we have known it.
The authoritarian elite want to control our lives in detail. Are we going to let them because we don’t like Trump? I know what my answer is. NO!
@ Geoffrey > “Trump’s motivation was not and is not one of power for power’s sake. Rather, he saw the Presidency as an opportunity. To confirm to posterity his greatness by leading the fight to make America great again. As always its about ego combined with his deep concern with where the country has gone wrong and his certainty that he is the man who can show the way to America’s restoration. Given his goal, I can easily overlook his egotism.”
On the open thread, T-Rex linked a post by Naomi Wolf, a portion of which directly addresses this point.
https://naomiwolf.substack.com/p/on-hearing-president-trump-in-person?r=b9bca
Rufus T. Firefly on August 15, 2023 at 2:40 pm said:
Sometimes the ground that conditions events, and that includes the moral and psychological character of the participants or parties, just cannot be ignored.
Why do we have this or that situation? Well there are any number of questions that may come to mind without one going into full critical theory mode; which in its pursuit of underlying conditioning factors can result in a fruitless infinite regress. A regress which ultimately leads to a brute fact material determinism rather than to any answers having explicative moral value.
But this deal with the tyrants also reminds me somewhat of the posting Neo put up about the mother who was trying to train toxic masculinity out of her son. You know the post …. the one where on the face of it Neo seemed to have been taken in by a parody.
But I looked the subject author up. And she seems to be real. And she seems to be nothing like a mentally normal or healthy woman, who is just trying to guide her son. She is a person who has apparently been mentally disturbed, by at least a profound depression, for many years.
I’d say she is acting out her internal deficit and resentment on her son. It almost looks like a kind of psychological displacement, doesn’t it.
Thus we have what is by implication, a clinically disturbed person, at least moderately, and who is probably upset with her own psychological condition; involving her son in a blame and responsibility shifting activity … possibly to his permanent detriment.
“You can make mommy stop crying by using your unearned boy privilege against the patriarchy in a way mommy approves.”
What harm might a crazy mother who implicitly blames men – even if indirectly – for her condition, do to her own son?
Perhaps Neo’s remarks concerning the motivations of some, repeat “some” , males who wish to “transitiion” to females might resonate here.
And what harm might members of a populatiion who crave inclusion and security through the elevation of an alpha dog above all others, do to the liberties of other members of that population?
We already know the answer to that last one.
By the way I read the link AesopFan provided to the Naomi Wolf substack article.
Her’s looks a brave act and an astonishing admission. But I just cannot process the pat [even though probably true] explanation for it. That is to say that: ‘My social group conditioned me to respond that way and all my sources of information were in accord with it.’
How can intelligent persons be such effen herd animals? Don’t they have some reactance trait or at least a neutral skepticism?
Maybe some just do not. Or not enough to make a practical difference.
DNW.
WRT your comments on Naomi Wolf:
It’s sort of what I wonder about democrats. How can they look at the current crapstorm and vote for more? Even if the car-storm doesn’t directly affect them, or not much, how can they vote for more of it to affect others not so well placed?
It’s not a rhetorical question. About the most rational thing I’ve heard is reciting all the Trump failings as if things were worse when he was POTUS;
employment, prices, wars, so forth. Either they actually believe this, in which case their views are rational (a charitable view of Wolf’s earlier positions) , or they know better and are trying to hide something they know is probably going to be seen as vile and self-serving.
Or, and I thought this during the Covid thing and seeing the continuing climate hysteria, they want to see others made to do stupid stuff, want to see others immiserated. Feeling holy is a lot better when it’s built on others’ suffering. “It’s a price we have to pay,”
There is no logical reason based in fact to vote against Trump.
Richard Aubrey:
I think I’ve answered that question in many many posts.
A summary: many people aren’t paying much attention to the details, plus they are convinced that the Republicans are the personification of evil. Practically everyone around them – all the nice people, all the smart people – agree. So they stick with the devil they know.
neo
Some cases, maybe. But they have to pay the same for groceries as the rest of us. Same for gasoline. They know we weren’t at war or close to it when Trump was POTUS. It’s not a matter of energy independence or not. It’s what’s right in front of them.
Is it possible to miss the exploding crime and ruination in the big cities?
Do they really think having guys leering at girls in the locker room is a good idea? (Maybe some do.). Is that a detail they miss?
They may make rationalizations for the “details”–I’ve heard a few–but I can no longer buy the idea that someone smart enough to get out of bed in the morning doesn’t know better. They’re okay with it. And they’re extra okay with it, whatever it means to others less fortunate, if it means they’ll GET TRUMP!!
They are not innocently ignorant. “Oh, I don’t know anything about THAT!”, as if they’ve earned a cookie is bogus. It simply means they don’t have to address it. Which would be convenient.
Neo is right that she had addressed this matter many times; even back when, and probably after, I used to frequent her blog regularly.
But, although I grant much of the context she set out, I don’t agree with the conclusion as sufficient to explain the result in moral terms; as if – though she makes no such claim – it is the more or less to be expected upshot when applied to a human population which is assumed to be more or less fungible and morally alike at root. “Everybody I knew thought this, therefore I naturally assumed …”
Because even the leftists, despite all their rhetoric about equality and justice as if these concepts were principles derivable from nature, believe in no such thing. And there were plenty of old slogans used by “liberals” which admitted precisely that. For example, along the lines of, “Nature is not fair, but we can make society so”
There is no doubt that what they instead believe or assume is that they are part of a moral and ethical evolutionary social vanguard; whether the signal trait and demonstration of that status is supposedly manifest as intelligence, or sensitivity, or collectivized commitment, or supposed altruism.
And I think, in my considered opinion, that there is a significant element of vainglory, and of barely disguised malice and contempt toward others that goes along with the self-satisfaction of being, as they imagine, one of nature’s supposedly anointed … even if they quickly concede that there is no purpose to nature or real anointing taking place.
One of the most particular drivers of the people we tend to label “left” is their obsession with community, inclusion, and relative social status. This indicates to me that they have truly internalized – or perhaps naturally instantiate – a fundamentally nihilist, Nietzschean psychology (which if it were developed intellectually, would become a kind of metaphysics), in a way and to a depth which the “bitter clingers” cannot ever quite process or grasp.
But, if we grant that there is no reality outside of the sacred circle of our particular in-group of appetite entities – albeit special, kindly, caring, sharing, bags of appetite of superior intellect – then their attitude falls into perspective.
It is my conviction, that the average “believer” on the other hand, be he a current or past believer, has no conception whatsoever of the deep cynicism and dis-inhibition of the leftist mind he encounters. And if there were such a thing as a spiritual realm that encompassed us all, you would have to say that it had a distinct spiritual aspect to it.
Now, some of this may be biologically impelled too. How much, I cannot guess. And I think it is related to personality traits at some fundamental, perhaps genetic or inheritance level.
Yet, I still don’t believe that anyone is ever completely unaware, or oblivious and unquestioning. Some persons, of extremely diminished intellect or suffering from some other deficit might be, I guess.
But by and large, I think their indifference to distributive political liberty and to honest impartial governance is a conscious decision based on comparative personal advantage and even existential antagonism … and thus representing as much of a moral choice as any of us ever have.
Richard Aubrey:
In addition, some people are willing to make concessions on a local level – for instance, voting to recall a Soros DA when crime rises – because the cause-and-effect is more clear and the area is smaller. But they don’t extrapolate to a larger arena, and in particular not the federal one.
Neo.
I was optimistic when that happened. Be interesting to see what those voters do going forward.
@ DNW > “One of the most particular drivers of the people we tend to label “left” is their obsession with community, inclusion, and relative social status. This indicates to me that they have truly internalized – or perhaps naturally instantiate – a fundamentally nihilist, Nietzschean psychology”
This study seems to run along the same lines as your speculation, for a specific character trait, if it’s not another of those unreplicable ones.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90935920/cognitive-science-selfish-coworkers-office-life
witness his Reform Party presidential run in 2000,
So, someone way up-thread uses this as an indication that Trump wanted power, having already achieved wealth and notoriety.
I would tend to think that a VERY quixotic third-party run indicates the opposite. There is no third-party path to power in the US in the modern era.
What I’m getting at is that I’m willing to entertain the idea that Trump was or is power-hungry, but available evidence – a third-party run, a Republican run in a year in which pretty much everyone expected that to be quixotic, his adherence to federalism while President as someone pointed out above, and, not trivially, the fact that his kind of money already comes with significant power and influence – makes me look elsewhere for his motivations. And his personal style (you know, the gold plating, the McDonald’s), or rather, the fact that his personal choices don’t even nod at what “his class” is supposed to like, aligns with the vast body of Americans whose support he sought and won. So it seems to me that he may have been motivated by love of America, or he may have been motivated by a desire to stick a thumb in the eye of the Brahmins, but it doesn’t make sense to me that he was looking for power.
Just trying to look at the available evidence rather than just make assertions about Trump’s state of mind. In other words, trying to stand out from the people around me at the moment, a bunch of friends who literally cheered at the latest indictments – one said, “With four indictments, they’re bound to get him for something this time!” – and then stopped to stroke their chins worriedly about whether, if the Great Satan Trump doesn’t run, the actual nominee might be worse (?!).
Sometimes I really don’t like my friends.