Beware post-Vietnam syndrome
This is certainly interesting (hat tip: Pajamas Media): a warning to the Democrats not to repeat their errors in Vietnam in the mid-70s.
And just as interesting is the fact that it was written by Lawrence J. Haas, former communications director for Vice-President Al Gore.
the horrible truth is that this statement from your link
“The world will grow more dangerous, not less. Failure in Iraq, leading to an exodus of U.S. forces, will provide merely the illusion of peace.”
is probably true.
But continued occupation of Iraq leading to the illusion of victory is equally – if not more dangerous. It is a dark situation that neo con policies have brought the world. The only route out is through international co-operation. Attempts a t International domination are not likely to work, and have th eeffect of irritating more people than they pacify.
nnc,
How can you cooperate with countries that don’t believe there is a problem? I hope you don’t believe that “We are all Americans” stuff. Read “While Europe Slept” to get an idea. I just don’t think endless discussions on the true meaning of jhihad are going to solve the problem.
well i imagine most countries recognise there is a problem. It is the nature of the problem and potential solutions that they diasagree about. My argument is that a US imposed solution is doomed.
The Security Council leaders need to step up and actually lead — ironically, this, as an only hope, is very very doubtful.
“But continued occupation of Iraq leading to the illusion of victory is equally – if not more dangerous.”
And the evidence to support this assertion is….?
“And the evidence to support this assertion is….?”
the fact that the democractic beacon that neo cons hoped would emerge in Iraq is actually a nasty little civil war
nnc:
Only G*d created the world in 7 days. It’ll take time for Iraq to settle down. I’d refrain from calling the violence there a “civil war,” in that much of it is being done by foreign fighters (Iran, Palestine) rather than local Iraqis.
stumbley: neoneoconned doesn’t need no steenking evidence. A mere assertion is quite enough, thank you very much.
neoneoconned is a troll–although not for his comments in this thread, which would fall under the umbrella of reasonable (although not necessarily well-reasoned) and polite debate. No, he is a troll because of his extremely over-the-top and disgusting words here in the past.
I leave his comments up in this thread because they, once again, illustrate certain points for me about the Left and its arguments. One, for example, is their common assertion that we know the alternative history that would have occurred but for the invasion of Iraq, and that of course we know it would have been better than what we are facing today. How do we know that? Because the Left says so, that’s why.
I’m sure that Saddam’s continued defiance of UN inspections, for example, if gone unchecked, would have immediately caused Iran and N. Korea to stop their nuclear weaponry programs.
Another case in point is neoneocon’s almost ludicrous assertion, in the face of all evidence to the contrary (yes, evidence), that the international community might somehow magically gain either the will or the wherewithal or the ability to unite against the enemy we face, in the absence of attacks on the West of extremely major proportions.
Yes indeed, it would be a wonderful way out of the dilemma if “international co-operation” would reduce the need for unilateral action. But the abysmal failure of the international community to contain Saddam when that entire community believed he had WMDs in defiance in the UN and the Gulf War armistice –its own failure to enforce its own rules–is sobering. Its failure to deal with so many other dangerous hot spots on earth is also quite clear, as well as the corruption of the UN, its most august body.
In Iraq, even many of our so-called allies in Western Europe had a lot to gain, monetarily, from the perpetuation of Saddam’s vile regime. The Oil for Food scandal is about the closest we would have gotten to international co-operaton against Iraq, I’m afraid.
I wrote the above comment of mine before reading neoneoconnned’s most recent comment, in which he advances his “evidence”–a “nasty civil war” in Iraq.
Ah, yes, as we all know, before that “nasty civil war” there was kite-flying, laughter, and joy there, a la Fahrenheit 9-11. No killings, no murders, no torture
Actually, a civil war of sorts had been ongoing for about two decades or more–the difference was that it was Saddam doing the killing of his enemies (mostly Shites). But of course we didn’t have to pay any attention to that, did we, because it was Saddam that was responsible for the killing, not the nasty neocons. The blood on his hands doesn’t count, you see.
Ask the Kurds what they think of it all. Oh, right,they don’t count either–they like America. And ignore what John Burns said about the feelings of the ordinary Iraqis.
It occurs to me that there’s a certain symmetry here–now neoneoconned is not only demonstrating the usual sort of argument we get from the left by comparing present-day Iraq to an imaginary alternative future that would be far more rosy, he’s comparing it (by implication) to an imaginary alternative past that was more rosy.
Please. You have to understand Vietnam was the highpoint of both the Democratic party and the Baby Boomer generation. If they can recreate that the world will be perfect again. If the GenX/GenY children can recreate that they will be as worthy as their Baby Boomer parents.
To streamline the argument, this is a mid-life crisis. Just like the 50-ish adult runs out and buys a sports car and has an affair to relive their youth, the Dems/Boomers are rushing to recreate their youth in the Vietnam era.
Reason and logic are not wanted here. Their world view is based on emotion and the recreation of youth is what they want
“…that entire community believed he had WMDs…“:
That is not true. Not even the whole US government believed that Iraq had WMD. For instance, the DOE spent most of 2002 rolling around the floor laughing at some of the “evidence” put about by the likes of VP Chenney and President Bush.
“No killings, no murders, no torture.“:
Saddam has been indictable since 1980.
DOE? Government employees vs. elected members of government — hmmm
“…elected members of government…“:
Congress did not get most of the “evidence”. It received only what the administration wanted them to see.
“It received only what the administration wanted them to see.” The administration does not brief Congress on intelligence estimates, the intelligence agencies do. Many of those briefers are the very “whistleblowers” you hold up as “exposing the lie”. Did these people “hold their tongues” because big bad ol’ Feith told them to? And what does that say about your heroes(Clark, et.al) when they knew they were spoon-feeding Congress “selective” intelligence contrary to their own estimates, and only said so after they were proven “right”?
And like it or not more military action is not going to improve matters.
Iraq, as an imploding state throughout Saddam’s regime, would have collapsed one day. What else could have been the product, in the most horrific way, of years of pitting ethnicities against one another? If we depart from Iraq now then the “circle” we’ve been holding will collapse, and a Rwanda-like blood bath will ensue. We have been preventing this inevitability, and to step up and help the coalition either by contributing force or personal support can only be self-evident to anyone who claims to possess some internationalist, humanists’ principles. Bush, like it or not, is the leader of the free world — sometimes you go to war with the president you have. It’s like Barney Fief negotiating the “Jones Town Massacre” as people are lining up to get their Dixie cups, it’s better than no one at all — it would seem like at least concerned citizens would step up and help — but unfortunately much of the world is drinking the Koolaid and his sort of International indifference conspicuously defines the laissez faire and parochial minded malaise of the new millennium – 20th Century, Part II, Rated R for our endless enjoyment.
What I was trying to say at the end of that rant was: The sort of International indifference we find ourselves with conspicuously defines the laissez faire and parochial minded malaise of, at least the beginning of, the new millennium.
Rationalize, rationalize, rationalize. Sorry folks, it’s a civil war, and it’s becoming far worse than Saddam’s iron fist.
Just one question for the Bush-lied-about-WMDs crowd.
So,when Billy Blythe signed the Iraqi Liberation Act in 1998 and cited Saddam’s possession of said WMDs as well as his justification for Operation Desert Fox, and many of the howlers now were saying it was all true then, well was it a lie then too or is it simply your BDS shining through?
“…was it a lie then too…“:
Yes.
Has it taken all this time to figure that out?
There is nothing to be gained from constructing an international tower of Babel.
“International co-operation” = “Check’s in the mail”
National Intelligence Estimate, Feb2, 2007: “The Intelligence Community judges the term “civil war” does not adequately capture the complexity of the conflict in Iraq, which includes extensive Shia-on-Shia violence, al-Qa’ida and Sunni insurgent attacks on Coalition forces, and widespread criminally motivated violence.” But neoneoconned says it’s a civil war wether we like it or not. (now a challenge for the lefties: the next sentence actually may support your view, but you’ll have to look it up yourselves to see what it says)
International cooperation can become possible on later stage of slipping into world wide war, as it was the case in WWII. But now we are still on Munich stage of it. Two years later, may be, when Jihad will began devour continental Europe, and Britain will make drastic measures at its home front.
Sorry folks, it’s a civil war, and it’s becoming far worse than Saddam’s iron fist.
That’s the paradox. Saddam wasn’t going to live forever — and his sociopathic son’s would have made things worse. A civil war from Saddam’s regime has always been inevitable — to bad the world, after 12 years to make up their minds, choose to ignore the situation, like they did in Rwanda, like the did for much time in the break-up of Yugoslavia.
Or, WR, are you going to go back to that tired old “WaPo says Gen. Odom says this is what the NIE says.” crap?
Neo–I suggest it is time to do some weeding.
“so save the meaningless word troll and start using English.” Well, in plain English(you actually can read English, not just simply espouse it?) I posted above the NIE’s statement that contradicts your “civil war” assertion. Debate it.
And like it or not, the current increase in military action is improving the situation as we type.
And quite frankly, neoneoconned, I am getting quite sick of you, WR, somuch, et.al. CRYING LIKE BABIES about the jokes, quips, and insults exchanged by EVERYONE in this forum. You guys ARE adults, aren’t you? You all claim you want to engage and debate like adults, well, ACT LIKE IT! I do unto others as they do unto me. I take YOUR crap, wipe it off, and throw it back on you. Then you scream “foul”? ACT LIKE ADULTS AND QUIT CRYING!!!
Wow, the word troll is “meaningless”. Now who in the world would think the word “troll” is meaningless….
Well, neo-neocon deleted neoneocons post (which some of us already read) where he points out she tolerates right wing trolls, plus homophobe remarks, and bigots, so I guess it is meaningless. He even named names.
She didn’t challenge it either. She just deletes it.
She can try to keep up deleting posts that aren’t actually trolls, but some people will see them and know the truth.
neo-neocon to somuch:I assume that you haven’t a clue as to the history of the people I’ve banned. They do. They were banned from the site long ago for excellent reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with disagreement: vile, obscene, and insulting comment directed towards me personally.
Abuse the right to be here and you lose it. These people have lost the right to be here. They know exactly what they have done and why they have been permanently banned from here. They also know ways to get around the ban, at least as long as the blog is in its present form.
Edited By Siteowner
A civil war would be an improvement. We will not see many battle “set pieces” on the earth again. Those the US could win easily with superior armament. Fourth-generation warfare plays off America’s weaknesses: use of our own popular media, lack of patience, desire to negotiate rather than kill.
We are fortunate that our military continues to do so well despite its imposed handicaps.
I notice a certain repetition in nnc and WR’s comments, which they clearly believe are killer debating points which should be continually returned to. So many things look different if one simply waits for the facts to emerge: the 2000 election, Kerry’s military record, Joe Wilson’s claims. The Bush Administration has already done quite well once the accusations can be addressed with data. The WMD’s will prove to be the same. We did not find what we expected, but neither did we find nothing. When places like Syria, Pakistan, and Iran have had a free press for a decade or two – God willing – it will not be Jack Murtha and Noam Chomsky who look prescient.
Just as a possibility, the Bush critics might read Ion Mihai Pacepa, the highest-ranking Soviet defector, about what he thinks is happening. His assessment is at least plausible, and contradicted by no known facts.
She can try to keep up deleting posts that aren’t actually trolls, but some people will see them and know the truth.
We shall over come, boohoohoo, someday yay yay-yay-yay, we shall over come, oh we shall over come, boohoohoo … crocodile tears
Neo-neocon, there wasn’t anything troll-like in that post. He was just pointing out the hypocrisy he was seeing.
Now if he was posting whatever nasty rant he had made in the past, your reply would make sense.
Eh, but you can’t argue the arbitrary Nazi rules of those who run the blog.
neo-neocon to somuch:
No, you can’t. And you are hereby banned for calling me a Nazi–I’m funny that way. What you’ve done is the blogosphere equivalent of coming to my house and spitting in my face.
But it’s true, you are so correct, I must be a Nazi–the Nazis were well-known for their insistence on civility on their blogs.
Don’t pretend to be so disingenuous about the whole process of banning, either. If people who’d been banned could come back and each comment of theirs would be allowed if it wasn’t offensive enough to cause another banning, then what purpose would banning serve? It wouldn’t be banning at all.
To reiterate: commenting on a blog is a privilege. This is true in blogs on the Left, the Right, and in-between.
Edited By Siteowner
Still crying like a baby, somuch? somuch: “WAAAAHHH! Lee called me a baby, Mommie!” mommie: “Well, somuch, what did you say to lee?” somuch: “I didn’t say nothing, really!”
Lee, your original comment including me was wrong anyway.
|quote|I am getting quite sick of you, WR, somuch, et.al. CRYING LIKE BABIES about the jokes, quips, and insults exchanged by EVERYONE in this forum.|quote|
I hadn’t made any complaints or comments about my treatment here. Or for that matter, anyone else until after your post.
Fine, somuch, then suck it up like an adult and move on.
stumbley wrote: “I’d refrain from calling the violence there a “civil war,” in that much of it is being done by foreign fighters (Iran, Palestine) rather than local Iraqis.”
“And the evidence to support this assertion is….?”
To quote myself from another comment thread:
“Back when neo simply deleted [trolls], they would squeal, for the short time their comments remained, about “censorship”, etc., but that’s just a common tactic of trolls who’s only real objective, apart from getting attention, is to so clutter up comments, derail discussions, muddy the waters, etc., as to shut down real debate — which is an irony as minor and pointless as their own lives.”
So yes, that’s a squeal you’re hearing from conned above, an old troll (for those new here) who was given miles of rope and used it to attempt to destroy any semblance of reasoned discussion. One of limited number of tactics of such types is to inject the odd note of rationality from time to time in order to lure new fish, only to resort to the usual hit-and-run, goalpost-moving, schoolyard mockery once anyone bit. In this case, if he’d really wanted to change his ways, neoneoconned would have expressed some apology for his former bad habits, and maybe picked a less deliberately insulting handle, but that’s noticeably lacking. So I’m happy to see neo return to the policy of cleaning out troll clutter, and making some room for honest debate.
Somuch, it’s Neo-neocon’s site, she makes the rules, she can delete anybody she likes. She isn’t required to put up with Neo-conned’s insults, goalpost moving and continued attempts to hijack threads, while shrieking abouse at the other posters. (Many site owners wouldn’t have let a poster on so openly mocking their name to begin with. Neo has shown incredible patience with ‘Conned.)
Stop whining.
Somuch, it’s Neo-neocon’s site, she makes the rules, she can delete anybody she likes.
She certainly can, but if she “deletes anybody she doesn’t like” she will lose credibility pretty fast in the eyes of neutral dudes like me. Of course, it is possible that she doesn’t care.
DeShawn: You just gave me a great idea. In the future, I’ll try to remember–instead of deleting the most revolting comment of a banned troll (the one that got the person the honor of being banned in the first place)–to save it and make a note of the date, time, and the troll’s name. Then if for some reason I choose to trot out the evidence for all to see, I can refer readers to the original comment itself.
Okay, DeShawn, you’ve got Neo’s answer. Is that credible enough for you?
(And, Dude, I really don’t think you’re all that neutral. And why should Neo care whether you approve of how she runs her blog or not?)
Thanks for passing this along neo. What Democrats need is more guys like this willing to swim upstream.
I think very few Dems will have the courage of conviction of a Joe Lieberman and it will cost them. It will also cost the rest of us in the long run.
Now if we can only work some back-bone into the Republicans…
More empty spaces where the mind is supposed to be…even sadder.
I love jerking around attackers that come to my blog looking for a fight. First they think everything they say is public, then I go into moderation mode, and then they tell me how they really feel now that their comments aren’t public. So after awhile, I jerk their chain again and make their comments public again.
Seriously, they expend all that energy for no gain. They are just wasting their time. Unlike Neo, I don’t have to worry about the niceties of whatever this or that.
Maybe Conned is lonely, he wants the great big family group hug, Neo. Kathy over at OperationDoubles wrote quite a lot about how narcissists lie to their loved ones for kicks and shiggles. Maybe Conned believes that this is his family.. hey?
neoneoconned is a troll–although not for his comments in this thread, which would fall under the umbrella of reasonable
I still have some of his blow the gasket comments on my blog stored. Hilarious. Because it is like Jeckyle and Hyde. Whoops, there he goes again.
Another case in point is neoneocon’s almost ludicrous assertion, in the face of all evidence to the contrary (yes, evidence), that the international community might somehow magically gain either the will or the wherewithal or the ability to unite against the enemy we face, in the absence of attacks on the West of extremely major proportions.
I said this at blackfive’s site in that people try to avoid doing things that they don’t like doing. you know, chores, killing people, paying more than they think is just or fair. They do all kinds of things to avoid such things. Pacifism, getting killed, playing around, procrastinating, lying, is just one of a grab bag of reactions.
So a person believes in the magic because… what else would they do? Personal leadership? No way. That would require action. The ability to act against fear is hard, for everyone, some more and some less. Everyone tries to avoid doing things that they dislike, but what differentiates people is whether they actually do it or not, or whether they sit around and wait for someone to die because of their negligence.
The Oil for Food scandal is about the closest we would have gotten to international co-operaton against Iraq, I’m afraid.
Europe has to find some way to make a living now that their economies are going bust.
sk the Kurds what they think of it all. Oh, right,they don’t count either–they like America. And ignore what John Burns said about the feelings of the ordinary Iraqis.
There are some indications, ala CBS 60 minutes and various other Leftist organs concentrating on Kurdistan, that speaks to me that the Left has crafted a different plan for Kurdistan. Don’t know what it is, but it won’t be for the Kurds either way.
These people have lost the right to be here. They know exactly what they have done and why they have been permanently banned from here.
But you know Neo that narcissists will never admit that they are wrong, to us or to themselves. because, the moment they go down the path of deception, they have to maintain it. Have we not seen how hard it is to tell the truth after lying for awhile in our personal lives? Entire globes of romantic relationships have fallen on the old trite incident of “avoiding telling the truth until later”. Later being too late. They have to ride the Tiger Neo, they cannot stop, they would be devoured.
They also know ways to get around the ban, at least as long as the blog is in its present form.
They expend so much personal effort on their net persona, neo. So much, and yet much of it is only a reflection off you, a distorted lie, a manipulated untruth. One of slander and libel. Of course
Of course they would keep on going and going, they have too much invested to pull out.
Ariel: Wow, the word troll is “meaningless”. Now who in the world would think the word “troll” is meaningless….
LOL 🙂
AVI: Ion Mihai Pacepa
Any links, or recommended works?
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