Home » Decision time in Iran: what now?

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Decision time in Iran: what now? — 17 Comments

  1. “Regime change” is so easy to say, compared to how hard it is to actually do. Whose military is going to invade and occupy Iran, and how?

    Of course the people of Iran can change their regime if they really want to, but they have the same power to do that as they ever had. When the thugs stop taking orders, the regime, or any regime, is over. That happens when the thugs lose confidence, and that’s up to the thugs fundamentally. When the thugs feel like other thugs can’t be relied on to guard their backs against the people, it will be over, and not before. That’s not easy to arrange from the outside.

  2. The Crown Prince has a following and I believe is capable of western oriented non-apocalyptic government. They surrender, international “occupation” to dismantle remaining nuke program and removal of excessively enriched uranium. Other restrictions on technology to be removed over time. Make them the Japan of the 21st century.

    Tucker Carlson has lost it.

  3. Iranians are not Arabs; however a learned Arab friend of mine observed that the Muslim cultures are probably better suited to benevolent monarchies than to American-style representative democracies. The current Egyptian regime meets this model; al Sissi is not a king, but rules in a similar fashion. Perhaps the Shah and some kind of parliament might work in Iran.

  4. If we could wave a magic wand and make Iran a constitutional monarchy without getting tens of thousands of people killed I’d be on board. Easier to talk about than to arrange from outside.

    Once upon a time all the Mice met together in Council, and discussed the best means of securing themselves against the attacks of the cat. After several suggestions had been debated, a Mouse of some standing and experience got up and said, “I think I have hit upon a plan which will ensure our safety in the future, provided you approve and carry it out. It is that we should fasten a bell round the neck of our enemy the cat, which will by its tinkling warn us of her approach.” This proposal was warmly applauded, and it had been already decided to adopt it, when an old Mouse got upon his feet and said, “I agree with you all that the plan before us is an admirable one: but may I ask who is going to bell the cat?”

  5. To my understanding the Ayatollah Khamenei has responded directly to Pres. Trump’s demand of “unconditional surrender”, saying (I gist here): *No. Never. Iran cannot and will not surrender but will fight to an end.*

    Very well then. What is next?

    Well, what is prior? 1) The US decision maker will not accept Iranian nuclear weapons possession, and 2) Iran will not acceed their aim toward nuclear weapons production.

    Israel, in turn, aims to destroy in detail all elements of Iran’s nuclear weapons production. All. However, though Israel may be capable in this regard, yet it may prove not (with the buried Fordow facility most prominent here).

    The US may have the answer to the Fordow complex. Perhaps, after allowing Israel to embark upon an attempt to destroy Fordow, and supposing Israel is dissatisfied with their efforts, I believe then (and only then) the US may strike that site in order to destroy it.

    If the US does strike that site, Iran has declared it will attack US interests and allies in turn. That act, the US has declared, would be a terrible mistake on Iran’s part, bringing further destruction upon Iran from the US.

    Regime change, I think, is simply a non sequitur as regards US policy. Israeli policy is another matter altogether.

  6. I think we want to account for all the uranium. Hard to do after you blow the place up. The regime is the proper target now.

  7. I’ll repeat what I said last week, which is that the Shah was pro-American, secular, and benevolent toward non-Muslims (Jews in particular) in Iran. Granted he was not so benevolent toward those who threatened his regime, but I think he was as good as one could hope to get in that part of the world. The crown prince in exile seems to have a similar bent, as well as a popular following. So I think the best possible outcome would be his triumphal return, with a major housecleaning of all the zealots, and a return to secular rule. If that’s “regime change,” so be it, but I would call it more of a restoration.

  8. Two thoughts: It doesn’t make much sense to start what Israel has started without finishing it. Set the Iranian nuclear program back to zero. I hope that Israel can take out Fordow or, if they cannot, that we do.

    Also – re: regime change – just make sure that whatever regime is in power after this lacks means to threaten its neighbors.

  9. The Crown Prince has a following and I believe is capable of western oriented non-apocalyptic government. They surrender, international “occupation” to dismantle remaining nuke program and removal of excessively enriched uranium. Other restrictions on technology to be removed over time. Make them the Japan of the 21st century.

    –Chases Eagles

    Maybe so, but that isn’t really the issue.

    Regime change is not automatically a failure, but it almost always does require occupation and substantial investment in ground forces. South Korea, West Germany and East Germany, Japan, etc. Success is possible but not guaranteed, because if you want your occupation to be temporary you have to install some kind of replacement regime. It doesn’t have to be a liberal Western democracy, but it does have to be functional.

    Attempts at regime change without occupation almost invariably fail. Libya comes to mind. Gaddafi was removed but the only result was chaos and an armed power struggle to replace him.

    Occupying Iran would be a huge challenge, even for Israel and America working together, and the leftists in both countries would reflexively side with the mullahs, as we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan and Russia during the Cold War.

    (The only reason Western lefties support Ukraine is because it initiated under Biden and Trump has not gone all-in on it. If Trump did, they would find an excuse to side with Putin.)

    So, I don’t see such an occupation as a particularly realistic option. But if we just knock the mullahs out and leave, there’s no guarantee they won’t rise again, or be replaced by something worse.

    It’s probably impossible to 100% eliminate Iran’s nuclear program. But it can be beaten down and down and down.

    Now, maybe if the mullahs make a pragmatic conclusion that it’s become more trouble than it’s worth, something might be worked out. But I’m not sure that’s a realistic possibility either.

    It’s a messy situation that may simply not have a good solution.

  10. I’ll repeat what I said last week, which is that the Shah was pro-American, secular, and benevolent toward non-Muslims (Jews in particular) in Iran. Granted he was not so benevolent toward those who threatened his regime, but I think he was as good as one could hope to get in that part of the world.

    One of America, and Iran’s, and the world’s great misfortunes was that the President of the United States in 1979 was Jimmy Carter. Carter had truckloads of sincere good intentions, and to his credit, he recognized several serious problems with how things were being done. To his discredit, he had utopian visions of solutions. He wanted American foreign policy to be based purely on moral considerations, with no pragmatic compromises, and he just couldn’t bring himself to accept that reality isn’t that way.

    He backed the Shah enough to enrage anti-Western elements in Iran, but not enough to let him defeat the mullahs. He was so force-averse that by 1979 the world had dismissed him as being weak. (Even a President who genuinely wants to avoid war has to at least project the impression that he might be willing to kill his enemy.)

    But to be fair to Carter, the U.S. military was in a sad state in the late 1970s, mostly because of political failure in Washington, D.C. So Carter’s reluctance to use force was not without foundation, too.

  11. Although the tragedy of desert one regretably helped out carter he showed no better judgement in the future notably with arafat and co also elements in south africa along with others

    Of course they learned all the wrong lessons when it came to libya effectively empowering al queda operatives like belhaj and bin qumu

    This was the so called arab spring

  12. People forget there are more examples of regime change than usually recalled, when great powers get involved. I couldn’t begin to list the S American cases we’ve done just that. Or worldwide, where the Brits did. (It’s too often forgotten that the Second Afghan War was a British success.)

    The outcomes have been mixed, of course. But the 100% negative portrayal is just as inaccurate as the rosy optimism of Bush II.

  13. Disraeli would not have been tossed out if the Afghan war had been such a success, ironically gladstone came in and invaded egypt and that had 70 years of impact till nasser

    South america operations also hit and miss for every good result like chile there was forbes burnham who adopted marxism (and welcomed jim jones)

    The soviets thought disposing of amin would solve their problem as they would do the same with dudayev nearly 20 years later

  14. There is almost zero appetite on either side of the US political spectrum for Nation Building in Iran. Neither the Israelis or the Europeans have the military for it.
    It’s a pipe dream.
    Knock out that Nuke site and let the chips fall where they fall.

  15. @Eeyore:I couldn’t begin to list the S American cases we’ve done just that. Or worldwide, where the Brits did.

    Iran has 85 million people. More than France or the UK, about the same as Germany. It’s not a banana republic where you can fly El Caudillo Sleazo into Hawaiian exile and replace him with El Jefe Maximo whenever United Fruit feels like it.

    Perhaps you should go through that list and look for any external regime changes done to nations of comparable size to Iran in the last 50 years.

  16. Do not assume that since you do not see how Israel alone can take out the Fordow facility, that it lacks the ability to do so. Many military capabilities are unseen until exposed through use. Also, sabotage could render the facility uninhabitable. Not necessary to destroy a facility to render it useless.

  17. No one is arguing for nation-building in Iran.

    The Pottery Barn Rule — You break it, you bought it — has expired.

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