Home » And speaking of deals

Comments

And speaking of deals — 25 Comments

  1. His story about his ‘fat friend’ buying the ‘fat drug’ in the UK was absolutely classic Trump.

  2. -Giving more of this money to patients will lower their medicine costs. Sure it will, sure: “giving more money to patients”? Typical leftist cost accounting.

  3. Healthcare in the US looks the way it does the various players involved who are usually not spending their own money on themselves.

    So here we see the pharmaceutical manufacturer trying to deflect blame onto hospitals, PBMs, insurers, everyone but them. But all these players, including employers, governments, and individuals, are all equally responsible for the mess we are in. They are all part of a system trying to do something for someone with someone else’s money. And they can all plausibly claim that they didn’t make the rules, they just are doing the best they can with what’s there.

  4. Whenever this comes up I think of all those so-called new drugs advertised on TV and their lists of warnings and side effects. I think, why would any patient take them and why would a doctor prescribe such?

    Then I recall Bernadette on the Big Bang Theory and how she worked for big pharma. She would say something like a new drug they had for arthritis, but the test mice grew a 5th leg, so the switched it to an asthma drug. The writers had big pharma nailed. I recall her company’s name was a play on Amgen.

  5. physicsguy,

    Do not take Xyxaltam if allergic to Xyxaltam.

    Do not set yourself on fire if you might react poorly to being set on fire.

    Do not wrestle an orangutan if your limbs may not stay attached.

  6. Over the last few years I’ve purchased the exact same ordinary generic drug from local pharmacies on three occasions, and from my Medicare part-D PBM.

    The prices I’ve paid: $10/pill, $1.10/pill, $3/pill from the PBM, but later $8.5/pill quoted from the same PBM (no thank you), and lastly $1.85/pill from a local CVS.

    Really? I suspect that a PBM will generally protect you from the very worst of the pricing excesses to some extent. But they have no interest in giving you great prices. They provide some conveniences if urgency is not an issue, but you pay dearly for that convenience.

  7. I hope there’s a way to do this – to bring down American prices, though I don’t believe it needs to be to the prices paid in sub-Saharan Africa (Europe is another matter) – without killing research into new drugs. Didn’t Trump either do or suggest Most Favored Nation pricing for drugs sold in the US in his first term?

  8. @TommyJay:I suspect that a PBM will generally protect you from the very worst of the pricing excesses to some extent. But they have no interest in giving you great prices.

    You are not their customer. Your part D carrier is their customer. Your part D carrier definitely wants to pay less for drugs across the board, but you specifically are only one element in that calculation. They don’t expect to, and can’t, lower prices for every individual. They negotiate with the PBM for possibly lower drug prices in aggregate. I say “possibly” because the PBMs offer blandishments that are not just lower prices, and the carrier is who gets those, not the individual.

  9. So why not fix both problems? Deal with the drug companies now, and then take on the hospitals and insurance companies later.

  10. Too many people assuming that ‘European Prices’ are fixed. Surely there are many medicines that are so important that they will pay more if that’s the only way to get them.

    In the case of poorer countries, it makes sense to allow for substantially lower prices than the US price. Most drugs have a high % of their cost in the up-front development and testing, with the incremental manufacturing and distribution cost per unit being relatively low. In businesses with this economic structure, it make sense to offer lower pricing to those who have lower ability to pay.

  11. @Abraxas:So why not fix both problems? Deal with the drug companies now, and then take on the hospitals and insurance companies later.

    Because the people who are happy with the current system will scream if they lose anything. Because hospitals and insurers are major employers with lots of money for lobbying. Because it’s all well and good for the mice to agree to put bells on the cat now and the dog later, but it’s a very different thing to actually do it.

  12. Somewhat related:
    Apparently a dynamite book on someone who survived the psych-med system…and how she did it…

    “Psych Meds And Veblen Goods”—
    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/psych-meds-and-veblen-goods
    Key grafs:

    …Psych meds are now common among adults and children. It’s a massive industry: like cell phones and TVs generations ago, they migrated through the class structure year by year.

    Now comes “Unshrunk” by Laura Delano, a book that could change everything…

    …Nothing I say can possibly prepare you for the adventure this book brings. It is perfectly crafted almost in a poetic way to bring to the reader the actual feeling of going through each stage over a decade and a half of drug cocktails, mental institutions, hospitals, and much more, and finally to her self-motivated emancipation from the whole industry…

    … most, the social-register set in Greenwich, Connecticut, descendent of a three-term president, a prep-school educated and Harvard-bound beneficiary of every financial and social privilege, one afforded the best psychiatric care available anywhere.

    She was not mistreated. She was treated. She says this herself:

    “I was once mentally ill, and now I’m not, and it wasn’t because I was misdiagnosed…. In fact, I was properly diagnosed and medicated according to the American Psychiatric Association’s standard of care. The reason I’m no longer mentally ill is that I made a decision to question the ideas about myself that I’d assumed were fact and discard what I learned was actually fiction.”….

  13. Seeing the messages so far, I just can’t resist semi-hijacking the thread on just one point – sorry:

    The odds of keeping your limbs attached
    Are not large

    Miguel cervantes
    Wrote two-thirds of a haiku

  14. There’s always been people writing on how psychiatrists are Doing It Wrong, and a religion based on that (Scientology) has been around over 70 years now. I doubt psychiatrists have All The Answers, I know for a fact they don’t, but it’s not very likely that the profession itself is completely off-base.

    Recently I learned that one of the most damning indictments of psychiatry that I had known of was most likely fraudulent. It was the one where supposedly students who had no mental health issues got themselves committed.

  15. I’ve long read complaints that the FDA blocks approval of drugs from European companies that would compete against American products.
    Maybe so and maybe not.

  16. NC

    Yup. Rosenhan was big stuff for a long time.
    One of the issues was that it seemed to fit what we thought we knew about such facilities.

    How do you tell if someone is mentally ill if all you see of him is his going through the daily routine of being in a facility? Lots of mentally ill people can learn, and can take the easy way as long as their particular Thing isn’t awakened.

    Yup. Rosenhan went along with popular and in some cases professional wisdom, so to speak.

  17. I remember a line from the first episode of The Sopranos. It’s during Tony’s first visit to his therapist, Jennifer Melfi. At the end of their appointment, Melfi says, “With today’s pharmacology, there’s no reason anyone should suffer from their psychological issues.” And she writes a prescription for Xanax.

    That one moment is an excellent indictment of the mental health business, and I’m sure it was intentional. For the next seven years, Tony takes his meds and goes to therapy, but he never gets any better, because he never faces the real problem: he’s a homicidal maniac who has lived with violence or the threat of it his whole life, going from a victim to a victimizer.

    Most people don’t have the same problems as Tony, but they have been convinced by therapists to take the drugs instead of really confronting the things that are causing their mental troubles.

    In my mind, the therapy sessions in that show are the best acting and the backbone of the show.

  18. Mitchell Strand:

    I don’t usually defend therapists, because I think so many of them are poor at what they do, and a significant number push harmful ideas such as “gender affirming therapy.” However, I take issue with your characterization.

    Any even halfway decent therapist is well aware that drugs are no panacea and often don’t even work very well. But more to the point, it’s only psychiatrists who prescribe them (or regular MDs). For the most part today, psychiatrists are pill prescribers and don’t do traditional talk therapy, but they are the least numerous of the “therapist” types out there. Psychiatrists have MD degrees. However, the vast majority of therapist have MAs or MSs or MSWs or sometimes (less otten) PhDs. They are the ones who do talk therapy or related therapies like EMDR. For the most part, they consider drugs an adjunct to talk therapy. The idea of talk therapy is to “really confront the things that are causing their mental troubles,” although its track record is varied. For psychoses such as schizophrenia, however, drugs are still the treatment of choice because the cause is thought to be largely physical.

  19. Too many people assuming that ‘European Prices’ are fixed. Surely there are many medicines that are so important that they will pay more if that’s the only way to get them.

    The thing is, there is another way to get them: break the patents. Making the drug is the cheap part of the process, and if you applied for a patent you’ve already told the government how to make the drug.

    Those lower prices are negotiated with that threat in mind, that lower prices are better than being cut out altogether.

  20. Neo–

    It was only after I posted the comment that I remembered your profession. Since you have more knowledge than I do, I won’t necessarily retract what I said, but I’ll concede that any accuracy there was in my statement was arrived at by chance, rather than by real knowledge.

    You make me think about something, though. Jennifer Melfi, while being a decent, good person, may not have been a very good therapist, which merely adds another layer of conflict to an already terrific show. In subsequent seasons, there are plotlines where we see Jennifer agonize over her therapeutic relationship with Tony. She has to go “on the lam” when the Mob learns of her existence and one of her patients kills herself in her absence. She thinks about informing Tony of her rapist’s identity after being attacked. And over the whole show, she’s conflicted about trying to help a recalcitrant criminal. It makes me admire Lorraine Bracco even more for portraying such a complex character.

  21. Mitchell Brand:

    I’m certainly not practicing, but I do know a great deal about the profession, years ago and to a lesser extent now.

    But I never got into The Sopranos. However, I find that, in general, portrayals of therapists in movies and TV shows often take liberties. Of course, therapists also sometimes take liberties.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

HTML tags allowed in your comment: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>