Home » What is the legal definition of a religion?

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What is the legal definition of a religion? — 19 Comments

  1. “We are a nation of laws, not of men,” however, “the Constitution is not a suicide pact.”

    I think that RICO laws should be used to prosecute terrorist-supporting Islamic organizations; no Muslims should be allowed to enter our country, except temporarily, under strict supervision; and all Muslims who break our laws should be deported. This would cause an outcry, but diversity is not our strength, rather it brings adversity.

    I think these measures would also cause a violent response, which would have to be responded to harshly, because the Muslim only respects the “strong horse.”

    Someone mentioned Dr. Zudi Jasser on an earlier thread, as someone who is trying to “reform Islam.” I have heard him on the radio, speaking in a flat monotone. I don’t know that his efforts have had any effect. I don’t think Islam can be “reformed,” since it commands its followers to bring Jihad to all “infidels”, and make them submit or die.

  2. I think those principles fit the definition,

    its curious how Christianity and Judaism aren’t really deemed worthy of protection but Islam is,

    Jasser wants to modernize the religion, but the purist islam the salafi current is
    militant in it’s inclinations, even among the milder Sufism that is the basis of the Turkish
    zysgy where the Sultan erdogan reigns,

    of course, the old Gods are certainly being set up for adoration

  3. A Hindu variant, or a Muslim, may not practice suttee or FMG, because they’re illegal. But he thinks it’s a good idea anyway.
    What happens if an opportunity arises because, somehow, a law got changed?

    Or if he goes to trial and there are Muslims on the jury who think those are fine ideas?

  4. Rastafari is another Abrahamic Religion, but don’t know if this Abrahamic Religion is legal in America.

    Not sure what happened to the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church—it was big news in Miami years ago…

  5. What thuckery.
    Too many criteria means no criterion at all, and for a good reason: defining religion is like defining God.
    Measure the Metagalaxy. Drain the Pacific Ocean. Extinguish the volcanoes of Iceland.

    All of us have beliefs that are not subject to negotiation. Examples? “Life is better than death”. “Violence harms”. “It’s one’s duty to raise one’s children”. “Rap sucks”. “99.(9)% of free verse written in America isn’t real poetry”.
    It’s nobody’s business how and where we picked them up.
    We are entitled to our opinions, including the ones that forbid us do certain things, irrespectively of who shares them, or has historically shared them.
    All real rights are negative rights, and all negative rights are real rights.

    We shouldn’t have to bring our God into the room if we don’t want to bake a cake for a person we don’t like. Freedom of association means that everyone has a right to refuse and no one has the right to coerce. Freedom of association shall not be infringed. As long as it is, we are not a free country. Let’s work on that rather than on carving up special privileges and special exceptions to privileges.

    A society that respects human preference needs no legal definition of religion. That’s it.

  6. neither suttee nor FMG were or are basic tenets of their respective religions.

    I wonder how one makes this determination for a religion to which one does not belong.

    For example, the mainstream LDS church, the Mormons, would say polygamy is not a “basic tenet” of their religion: after all, they gave it up. But more than one group of Mormons broke with the mainstream LDS church because they did indeed consider polygamy a “basic tenet” of their religion and still practice it. The practice of the mainstream LDS church surely isn’t how we determine if this is so or not; if it is then we’re letting the government pick sides on theological questions….

    I am sure there are Hindus and Muslims in the analogous position with respect to sati and female “circumcision”, who do indeed consider it a “basic tenet”.

  7. @Karmi: Rastafarianism is perfectly legal in America and to my knowledge always has been. They are not allowed to break the drug laws, however. Likewise it’s perfectly legal in the US to worship Tlaloc but human sacrifice is still not legal.

    Rastafarianism HAS been illegal in Jamaica, in that they did arrest people for being Rastafarian at one time, and this wasn’t over cannabis but about allegiance to the King. But the UK has an established religion, of course.

  8. interesting fgm or khald is not in the Koran and it’s obliquely mentioned in the Hadith, it’s a pre-islamic custom, which seems as present in West Africa as the Middle East, as Elizabeth George noted in one of her more recent Lynley mysteries, set in Nigerian dominant NorthEast London

  9. P.S. As of suttee, I don’t think any American jurisdiction criminalizes suicide per se.
    Most have protocols in place aimed at preventing it, or resuscitating the perpetrator, but there is no criminal liability (like there was in Nazi Germany).
    In other words, I have no objections against this particular custom as long as it does not involve coercion.

  10. Religion is essentially a behavioral protocol or model under God, gods, mortal gods (e.g. political, expert), or personal attribution. Faith is a logical domain of trust. Liberal democracies invariably operate under the Pro-Choice religion (e.g. political congruence, human rites, Diversity) and Twilight faith (“penumbras and emanations”, In Stork They Trust).

  11. LXE. Would be interesting to know how a widow refusing suttee is treated. The prospect might rise to coercion?

  12. faith is the evidence of things not seen, I assume for all faith,

    for reasons passing understanding they wI was showing life of brian, part of Python marathon, the film you could not make today in part because Python helped demolish most of the UK’s institutions, and there is the part about the crucifixion where he warbling about the ‘sunny side of life’ which is ironic in two senses, notably the fact that these overcredentialed cretins seem to have ignored Jesus’s message in the pursuit of wry chuckles, which was the redemption of humanity, without which England would not have stood for 1600 years, was Arthur indentifiably Christian, thats left for another day,

    the parts aimed at Jews probably would pass muster today,
    although probably that would be considered blasphemy by proxy, as the producers of the Noah film found out

  13. I think the American consensus has been that groups may have what beliefs they wish to have, but certain behaviors which may be called for in those belief systems are prohibited here. So, sexual mutilation of little girls, wife-beating, honor killings, and actions which attempt to restrict the legal activities of other individuals or groups are not allowed. As a voter, I am allowed to use my own judgment about religious affiliations of candidates. I would need to know if a Muslim candidate fully accepts the American constitutional framework and would not seek to suppress or commit violence against non-Muslims.

    LXE, there may have been Hindu widows who willingly went into the fire, but for the most part they did so drugged, and because a widow had no way to live once her husband was gone.

  14. Nobody expects the

    Abrahamic Religion!

    Suicide and suttee now that’s an argument. Like addadicktome (and the other trendy butchery) and the age old FGM.

  15. All religions are “unique” in the sense that they have a feature or two that isn’t shared by other religions, so denying that something is a religion is always problematic. Sure, if your religion is sitting around watching television, smoking pot and commenting on the sitcoms, you’ll have trouble convincing people that it’s an actual religion, but anything that’s been around for a millennium is going to qualify as a religion.

  16. @Richard Aubrey
    I think
    @Kate
    answered your question re: whether coercion is involved:
    > because a widow had no way to live once her husband was gone

    I’ve heard of many obsolete (or labeled-obsolete) customs in America, but in no single occasion I heard about one that would deny a widow her right to remarry, and as far as I understand inheritance laws, in most states she would be entitled to the husband’s estate automatically or next to automatically. Let alone other safety nets in existence.

    As of suicide under drugs, it doesn’t seem to be a narrowly religious problem.
    Ask Jim Morrison.

    @Kate
    > certain behaviors which may be called for in those belief systems are prohibited here

    Exactly. My approach is as follows: if my belief system called me to a certain action prohibited under the secular legal framework, I would still commit it — and accept the punishment, knowing that my God would reward me a hundredfold. (Rest assured, no “honor killings”, but I would k111 anyone who abuses my wife without remorse, and I think the sentiment is more common than it’s typically admitted.)

    However, if my belief system _prohibited_ me from a certain action, I would consider refraining from it an entitlement coming not from a particular belief system, but from a basic human right. I would still accept the punishment (e.g. from evading the draft if my religion forbids going to war), but I would consider it an injustice worth a remedy, and use every lawful way to fight back — not just for myself and my co-believers, but for every person born to be free. Which is, for every person, period.

  17. Re: IRS, religion and Scientology

    As it happens, the IRS withdrew Scientology’s religious tax emption in 1967. The IRS didn’t consider Scientology a religion, rather it was an organization operated for the benefit of L. Ron Hubbard and his family. Works for me.

    Scientology launched an all-out counter-assault on the IRS. They filed more than 2000 lawsuits against the IRS and individual IRS agents. They even had Scientologists infiltrating the IRS to gather compromising information on IRS officials.

    Scientology won. In 1993 the IRS recognized the Church of Scientology as a legitimate religion and restored tax-exempt status to Scientology and its affiliated entities.

    The details of the agreement between the IRS and the Church of Scientology were kept confidential.

    I’m not sure what the moral of this story is.

  18. Colonial Hindu: “Burning widows is part of our culture.”
    Colonial Brit: “Hanging men who burn widows is part of *our* culture!”

  19. @huxley
    > I’m not sure what the moral of this story is.

    I think the moral is that there should be
    (a) no corporate tax exemptions based on whether the government likes/endorses/approves of what the corporation is doing;
    (b) no corporate “income” tax at all. If some taxation of added value is inevitable because the “democratic government” cannot sustain itself on border tariffs and postal fees alone, it suffices to have either a uniform personal income tax or a uniform federal sales tax. The latter is preferred.
    Tax consumption, not investment. It’s that simple.

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