Getting rid of Joe: let’s look at the 25th Amendment
The Democrats face a quandary of their own making. They nominated a man in 2020 who was clearly on the wane, mentally and physically. They did it not because he’d be good at the presidency but because they thought he could win or could be made to win. And win he did, whether by hook or by crook.
They also thought – or some of them thought – that his continuing decline could be covered up for enough time to figure out an alternative for 2024. The debate on June 27 changed that calculus, but the perception of Joe’s fitness had already been faltering. No number of better – not good, but better – “press conferences” or teleprompter speeches will undo what was seen at the debate.
It seems pretty clear that the majority of Democrats would like to remove Biden from contention, but he has stubbornly and egotistically refused to go voluntarily. That was part of the Democrats’ 2020 bargain, too: “stubborn” and “egotistical” are Joe’s two middle names.
And it’s not as though Joe is utterly senile. I’ve been saying for a long long time that although Joe is significantly cognitively compromised, he still has some agency and some say in things. As commenter Niketas Choniates writes:
To me it seems clear that Biden is VERY old and has good and bad days. However, he is not a vegetable, he knows he’s supposed to be President and is officially at the head of the Executive. He also knows it’s the capstone of a long career in office.
He will not resign and he will not be removed by Amendment 25, because he’s competent enough to successfully challenge using the Amendment 25 process (which folks should get really get around to reading for themselves, because media is not truthfully representing it).
I think the only way he leaves the Presidency is feet first–he won’t be voted out because Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania are fortified for democracy. A successful Amendment 25 removal would only happen if he really were a vegetable, or so senile that he actually doesn’t remember he’s President even on good days.
(If they tried to remove him in the “vegetable” scenario, I’m assuming that his staff and or his wife would produce a letter under his name challenging his inability, and Congress would insist on seeing and interacting with Joe Biden in person before voting whether to restore his powers, which would mean something like a month of no one knowing who has the powers of the Presidency.)
So let’s look at the relevant portion of the 25th Amendment:
Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department [sic][note 2][7] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
That’s a mouthful. The article goes on to add that the drafters of the amendment deliberately left the definition of “inability” vague:
… [There is] no specific threshold – medical or otherwise – for the “inability” contemplated in Section 4. The framers specifically rejected any definition of the term, prioritizing flexibility. Those implementing Section 4 should focus on whether – in an objective sense taking all of the circumstances into account – the President is “unable to discharge the powers and duties” of the office. The amendment does not require that any particular type or amount of evidence be submitted to determine that the President is unable to perform his duties. While the framers did imagine that medical evidence would be helpful to the determination of whether the President is unable, neither medical expertise nor diagnosis is required for a determination of inability … To be sure, foremost in [the minds of the framers] was a physical or mental impairment. But the text of Section 4 sets forth a flexible standard intentionally designed to apply to a wide variety of unforeseen emergencies …
It seems to me that, if enough Democrats were to come along, the 25th could be invoked to remove Joe despite his protests and/or challenges. But it would be a very bitter and divisive experience for the Democrats.
Two-thirds of both the House and the Senate is a high bar. And if Joe is still legally and medically competent, which he is, his being confused and declining might not be enough to convince a super-majority to remove him.
I don’t see this working for anything other than a major medical catastrophe or serious accident.
@Kate:Two-thirds of both the House and the Senate is a high bar.
Much higher than impeachment, which only requires a majority of the House.
In order for the removal to stick, Biden only needs 34 Senators convinced he’s just competent enough for their purposes. If he’s competent enough to call in favors and rattle skeletons in closets, he gets his powers back. If he can appear competent enough on camera, he gets his powers back.
So it’s never going to be even attempted unless they know that 67 Senators are not going to waffle, and I think that only happens if Biden really is a vegetable and not just a very old man with good days and bad days.
This scenario has been extensively gamed because they were gearing up to do this to Trump a few years ago, and you can find these analyses online but with Trump’s name instead of Biden’s.
One element of Amendment 25 that lacks clarity is if the President immediately reassumes his powers on transmitting to Congress there is no inability, only to be deprived again if 2/3 of both Houses agree on his inability. I think the plain language of the Amendment says this, but the anti-Trump lawyers have made a case to read it as he doesn’t get them back until Congress has voted (unless 4 days go by with no response to the President’s communication). I think that reading was motivated by a desire to hamstring Trump, but it hurts the Dems either way it’s read.
Certainly learning this on the fly from articles. First a point being brought up by bloggers ( I never watch Democrats Propaganda Ministry channels) is the President job is 24/7 365, if a world event takes off we can’t wait for a President’s good period to question what to do.
Let’s start there by possibility the most famous event known, D-Day the Allies invaded Europe and Adolf slept until noon and had major units at a standstill until he awakened.
Second everyone knows what a mental health test would leave, Hur tapes would bring this out and the Republicans balked and walked out of a vote to hold Garland in contempt.
It’s exactly like court cases for vote fraud, no one will touch it.
I hope he goes on his own and has no say in the matter.
I am sure I commented many times here he wouldn’t finish his term.
Don’tcha just love it?
Both before, during, and after the 2016 presidential election, Democrat ess-ohh-bees shrieked that if Trump was somehow elected, once he was installed in the presidency, he’d *never* relinquish it voluntarily.
And now, in 2024, . . .
Since there is no history, there are lots of corner questions about the 25th Amendment. For example, if the President declares he’s able, but the VP and officers say no, and congress also says no, lots of web sites say that the President is removed from office, but that’s not what the amendment says–it says only that the VP remains Acting President. So do we now permanently have a President in office who cannot discharge his powers and duties? What if the President is then re-elected as President? Or, in another direction, as long as the VP is only Acting President, he can’t nominate a replacement VP because the office of the VP is not vacant, himself being in it. So many different scenarios…
A Bitter and Divisive Experience for the Democrats appeals to me.
If I were an R senator or congress critter, I’d be sore tempted to leave Biden in office until after the election. I’d be thinking, “No, you dem-holes caused this problem, and you can damn well fix it yourselves! The man is hasn’t lost a step, smartest man in the room, sharp as a tack! What is all this fuss about?!”
There’s nothing the Democrats can do at this point.
This is a political crisis caused entirely by the Democrats, when they (1) nominated a failing older man for president and a political nonentity for vice-president, and (2) when they acquiesced to Biden’s running for a second term when the party leadership knew perfectly well he’s operating on fewer cylinders than he used to have. If I were a Republican representative or senator I’d be inclined, as “boxspeed” says, to let them stew in it.
Dead man’s switch,
I seem to remember that there were a couple of times recently that the 25th was invoked when a President had to undergo minor surgery that required anesthesia.
OFF TOPIC: Alec Baldwin, charges dismissed. He is free. Who paid off the Judge? Yes, I am that cynical.
My opinion:
1. Removal via the 25th Amendment will not happen.
2. Biden will be re-elected, by hook and by crook, aided by the ignorance/stupidity/mendacity of millions of Democrat voters.
3. Biden will die in office.
4. His vice-president/replacement will be equally if not more incompetent and destructive in his or her actions and policies as Biden.
5. The Democrats will give illegal aliens the right to vote, thus solidifying their hold on power.
6. The Left will rule, and kill the Republic.
7. America will go to hell.
8. The world will burn.
Gee, I sure hope I’m wrong.
Paul in Boston:
Voluntarily invoked by the president.
I read an article that helps explain Joe’s aggressive opposition to stepping down. To wit, Frau Doktor Jill hates, hates, HATES Kamala Harris and will do anything to prevent her from assuming the presidency. Thus, she cheerleads/harangues Joe and refuses to allow him to even consider withdrawing/resigning. Seems credible. (Any resemblance to Grima Wormtongue is entirely intentional.) As far as the goings-on amongst the democrats in general, some supporting Biden and others seeking his ouster, this illustrates how the party is a coalition of opposing, self-interested groups, coalescing only around the desire to obtain and exert power rather than the good of the country as a whole. If these opposing factions have no object of mutual hate, the coalition starts to fall apart. If Biden can weather this storm, it will be interesting to see how the schism over his continued presence will be papered over. The backtracking should be something to see!
Sennacherib (6:26 pm) said: “There’s nothing the Democrats can do at this point.”
There’s nothing* / ethical / the Democrats can do at this point. However, . . .
— — — — —
* [to possibly very little; I’m not a legal eagle]
Steve (retired/recovering lawyer) (7:04 pm) said: “I read an article that helps explain Joe’s aggressive opposition to stepping down.”
Perchance this article? . . . from U.K.’s Daily Mail . . .
“Jill Biden’s grudge against Kamala Harris Revealed:
“Power-hungry first lady’s grudge is so deep that the only thing worse than Joe stepping down is the VP replacing him.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13625323/Jill-Biden-grudge-against-Kamala-Harris-deep.html
I’m gonna wash that Joe right out of my hair’
I’m gonna wash that Joe right out of my hair
And send him on his way.
–“”I’m Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair” – SOUTH PACIFIC (1958)”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr3wH4u4xus
_________________________________________
I’m not a big musical fan, but those old ones are such great time machines.
There’s nothing* / ethical / the Democrats can do at this point.
M J R:
I’m not sure of the ethical caveat, but I still think concerted efforts to pressure him with calls to step aside, from important Democrats to rank and file, plus falling poll numbers and promises to honor him as a great man for passing the torch, can work.
There are reminders that he is becoming a laughingstock. Jon Stewart is point man there. The other day he argued that Biden couldn’t get a job as a cashier at Home Depot based on his debate performance.
There will be further leaks of his decline from staffers and insiders. Perhaps even the Robert Hur tape may drop.
There can also be threats to further investigate his and Hunter’s influence peddling.
The Joe Must Go movement is just getting started.
Moral(s) of the story: Don’t rig your primary to confer the nomination on a senile puppet, don’t steal the election to install your senile puppet in the White House, don’t preface the whole charade with the impeachment of your puppet’s predecessor for the puppet’s crimes in Ukraine . . .
Karma’s a b!tch.
huxley (8:31 pm) said: “I’m not sure of the ethical caveat, . . . .”
. . . by which I intend, those guys surely are not averse to doing something(s) that are unethical [, underhanded, etc.]. By any means necessary, whatever works, and all that.
M J R:
Unethical? You mean like Joe dying of a stroke in the middle of the night without detailed medical records?
Like Uncle Joe Stalin.
huxley (8:55 pm), exactamente.
The 25th Amendment was written for another era — maybe an era that had already passed when the Amendment was proposed and ratified. Does anybody really think that Blinken, Buttiegieg, Granholm, Raimondo, Austin, Becerra, Mayorkas, Haaland, Cardona, and Fudge (already gone) would confront Biden and tell him that he was incapable and incompetent? They aren’t Hamilton and Jefferson, or Webster and Clay or even Stimson, Morgenthau and Hull. Unless Biden actually and literally acts crazy and proclaims himself Emperor of North America and orders free ice cream for all 330 million Americans, he’s not going to be removed by the 25th Amendment.
Abraxas is more than 100% correct. The dullards in Dopey Joe’s cabinet, e.g. Buttigieg, Blinken, Mayorkas, etc., are there
because Dopey Joe nominated them, and the Dem. sheep in the Senate did as ordered by their ruler.
I doubt the 25th Amendment will be necessary. But if it comes to that, I believe Obama, Pelosi and Schumer can crack the whip on the boys and girls in the Cabinet.
It’s clear that Obama, Pelosi and Schumer are considering their options. They see the disaster that Biden 2024 will be to the party, their power, and their plans for the USA.
They are asking politely now, but that can change.
Sundowner is the cause that a very good chance the ‘Democrat/Marxists will lose the election so many factions want him gone.
There is no way the Deep State wants a vengeful Trump so it will be a life or death struggle to them.
I am positive the population wants Trump, he won in 2020 by more votes than 2016 and think he will get more votes than in 2020.
Sundowner’s cabinet are probably fine running their own fiefdom without interference by a president who is just a suit. Why toss that away.
It’s the perfect storm why this 25th Amendment will not be pulled
Biden is just the fall guy for the Left. The party didn’t do it, it was mean, senile, old White Joe Biden. 2028 is just around the corner.
“But it would be a very bitter and divisive experience for the Democrats.”
Not as bad as what they have put the country through in order to stop Trump and retain power.
But the Republicans should be careful what they wish for. The Dems have already politicized impeachment, and if they had to participate in using the 25th Amendment on Joe, they would feel completely justified using it for their own purposes thereafter!
I fear the Constitution cannot protect us against a criminal government, and that is what we have.
I just hope Trump keeps working assiduously on the draft of “The Art of Shutting Up”, but I fear he may tire of it before it is complete!
Abraxas:
Correct on all counts. The one that really raises my ire is Blinken, who was instrumental in putting together the 51 intelligence officers’ letter. That borders on treason in my book.
all of whom had active security contracts, blinken was also the front man for the penn biden center, where documents were found, money changed hands,
@ F and miguel cervantes:
It has long been held that while government employment is protected, security clearances and access to classified information is purely a privilege granted by the Executive branch and confers no rights on the clearance holder.
In short: a clearance holder can have their access revoked by stroke of a pen and have no right to redress.
I would expect nothing less than all 51 of those signatories to lose their access (and thus, their sinecures) as a literal first order of business if a Republican president is sworn in in January 2025.
I won’t hold my breath, of course.
One of the problems with the 25th Amdt is what we call in the CS world a “timing window”. The Cabinet can vote to declare the President incompetent. He can deny that, and they get another chance, except… the President can summarily fire his traitorous Cabinet members. Nothing anyone can do about that – it’s one of his core powers (as was detailed in the recent Immunity decision by the Supreme Court. He just has to fire them before they have a chance to again vote him out. He could even do it before he files his protest about his fitness to serve.
It’s clear that the 25th could be invoked, and supported by a big majority of top Dems, if VP Harris and a majority of Biden’s cabinet, his allies, agreed to invoke it.
They’re the political judges–as was kind of clear when the Dems were calling for its use only 6 or 7 years ago, with a virile and active Trump as Pres.
Harris hasn’t yet been convinced to pull the trigger – on the 25th. Not a rifle.
What would prevent Decent Joe from issuing an E.O. declaring that he’s the sanest, sharpest, most competent American president EVUH?
(Maybe attach it as a “rider” to further erasures of student loans…just to prove the point…since it IS, after all, an election year…)