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Julian Assange plea deal — 30 Comments

1. On still another hand – I’m up to three hands now

   That’s the “gripping hand”. One the one hand, something, on the other hand, something else, on the gripping hand the thing that’s more important than the others. From a couple of science fiction novels by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, featuring aliens with three hands. I’ve seen people use it online, maybe because Pournelle sometimes used it in his Chaos Manor blog and columns?

2. you know everytime they have tried to apply the espionage act, I wonder, against Jeffrey Sterling who leaked to James Risen, that we had pulled a Doc Brown against the Iranians, yet they apparently reversed engineered and made considerable progress, against James Rosen re Korean sanctions, against Bradley Manning well he was pardoned right for opening gentlemen’s mail,re Snowden you have a easier case, he did reveal sources and methods but a myriad of publication published them from spiegel to the wall street journal, so weren’t they accessories, they went after guccifer previously because he broke into some of hillary and colin powell’s dirty laundry, notably that back channelwith two former spies murray and drumheller, who had curious allegiance to unreliable narrators in French and German intelligence,
   to sid vicious blumenthal, who had been their mariner,now among those clucking in the Torygraph was james clapper, who did commit aggregious abuses of communications
   intercepts, probably at the same standard as the Minaret and Shamrock NSA collection programs. So did GHCQ, their opposite number
   and he was part of the 51 intel operatives, so when do they go to trial, 12th of never, same with morell mentioned upthread, in a perfect world, he would rely on what information they disseminate, but this is the world of the Russian hoax and any number of artifices, now when Phillip Agee worked with the Cuban government and the East Germans to compromise active intel operatives, along with a German publication Geheim,that was a different issue, but no prosecution really worked in his case, did it, Agee curiously coedited Sid Blumentha’ls collections of conspiracy theories, Government by Gun play,

3. Pentagon Papers.

4. Isn’t the “real” crime that he refused to say who gave him the papers? He didn’t steal them, he received them. The discussion should be about if the government can coerce a witness into testifying against their will. I propose a simple test: if the papers prove to be accurate and embarrass or implicate the government, the receiver should be let go.

5. no the real crime was giving up hillary’s dirty laundry, so further why no prosecution of the Panama Dubai and Paradise papers that affected many more people, I just find the double and triple standards bewildering,

6. I am in favor of transparency of our government and its operations. Who benefits from keeping government activities secret, the people, the government, both? Rarely, if ever, the people.

7. The outing of information that could have endangered people I have issues with. Supposedly the document dump included names of people working for the U.S. as informants.

   The over reach of U.S. prosecution overseas troubles me. The Swedish charges sound pretty flimsy. The U.S. prosecution seems more retaliatory.

8. miguel cervantes on June 25, 2024 at 6:29 pm . . .

   OMG, that was all one sentence! Bro, Henry James has nothing on you!

9. As discussed, there is a judgment to be made. I see no issue in the publishing of embarrassing information, no matter how secret the government claims. I do take issue with the publishing of secrets that literally weaken national security.

   The problem is the government uses its power and authority to define all secrets as necessary for national security. I disagree with this. Governments would better serve the people if there were less secrets and especially if politicians couldn’t avoid accountability by hiding behind claims of secrecy.

10. Invisible Sun:

    Exactly. And who gets to decide? I don’t trust the government, necessarily, but I definitely don’t trust journalists either. This was information about wars during wars.

11. SHIREHOME:

    Ah, yes, the Pentagon Papers. I’ve written quite a bit about that. Interestingly, what was in them was misrepresented by the press. Please see this post.

12. You know I suspected some of this, yes the Gulf of Tonkin was a response to on going operations around Hainan island, why would the Johnson administration have decided to bomb the North at that time, Ellsberg for his own reasons, filtered the cables to shape a narrative, and the Times reporters sifted them further,

    why did Nixon go so hard after Ellsberg, it seems it was Kissingers prodding representing the consensus of many people in and out of government, re Ferguson’s bio, he had a minor consultant role in 1967 leading into 68, so he had some cursory understanding of the situation, Ellsberg had been with Lansdale with Conein all of the ones who were deep into the operations in Vietnam, then he had a change of heart,

    so Sterling and Risen, whoever leaked to Rosen, about upcoming sanctions,
    Brennan and those he leaked to at the AP and CNN including Richard Clark
    and another fellow, the DOJ found ways to pin the leak on everyone else,
    the Senate ‘torture’ report that Jones had compiled which also crafted a narrative,

13. I’m very hazy on the Assange details, but here’s a question: why was this decision, to free Assange, made at this time? By the Biden administration.

14. Niketas Choniates on June 25, 2024 at 6:26 pm…

    From https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/392/what-is-the-origin-of-the-phrase-on-the-gripping-hand

    So it seems that “on the gripping hand”, originally an allusion to the Mote in God’s Eye, had become an idiomatic expression to a few English speakers (presumably SF fans); Niven then had the idea (or coincidentally happened) to give more prominence to the gripping hand in his 1993 sequel, and the expression grew in popularity after that.

15. Is it possible that Assange has had to secretly agree to some restrictions on his freedom to discuss certain topics like the DNC leak, or face extradition to the U.S. from Australia?

    I can see Australia agreeing to that as a popular victory for the government, and the U.S. agreeing to give them such a victory to silence Assange without having to resort to “wet work”, especially if the UK court was showing some inclination to deny extradition to the U.S. anyway!

    I believe the freedom of speech is not explicitly guaranteed in Australia, just as it is not in Canada, but is only “implicitly” recognized… i.e. it is at the convenience of the government of the day.

16. On the question of journalism and freedom of the press I most enjoy the movie Absence of Malice. The scene with Wilford Brimley setting everyone in their place is one we all wish a real judge could deliver.

    Here’s a taste of the scene:
    https://youtu.be/btqBJJF2yvE?feature=shared

17. Matt Taibbi addresses some of the questions raised in the comments, and has a very full and clear report on the entire affair.
    https://www.racket.news/p/assange-is-free-but-never-forget

18. Given This administration is hyper political and are laser focused on the election.

    My hypothesis is to weaken a potential attack by Trump at the debate.

19. I make a distinction between leaking classified info about a specific government action that the public arguably needs to know about and leaking an entire archive of classified documents with no particular purpose in mind other than hoping the leaked documents cause damage to the nation and its government. From my understanding of the facts, Assange’s case was much more like the latter than the former.

20. On it being mentioned to Assange that he’d provided info on Afghans helping the Americans, he said the locals know how to treat their enemies. Not sure if that was just part of the pile leaked or if it was a deliberate act, but he what he thought about it is despicable, irrespective of the rest of the case.

21. Thank you for the first reasoned, logical response I’ve read on this yet.

22. Invisible,

    That was a great scene. For a short, stubby kind of guy, Brimley always had a commanding presence in anything he was in.

23. Assange got punished for disclosing DNC and Hillary material. At least he didn’t get the Seth Rich treatment.

24. I suspect this is more about Wikileaks than Assange and that the IC no longer views Wikileaks as a threat. A decade ago they viewed Wikileaks as more of a fledgling intelligence service than an established publisher. As the IC gained access and some would say control of the internet’s pipelines and publishers Wikileaks appears to have ceased being a problem set that had to be worked. It hasn’t published any IC products since 2018. Compare the speed with which the Otis ANG chatroom leaker was IDed and apprehended compared to Manning, the CIA vault leaker, etc.

    If it’s true that the IC believes they know what Wikileaks knows, how it knows it and how to prevent future collection by Wikileaks with or without Assange’s cooperation, his continued confinement doesn’t gain them anything it only elevates his martyrdom.

    Whether in writing or not, I also suspect his freedom depends on not revealing the unpublished info both parties are aware of, ie the 2016 DNC leaker if there was one.

25. After reading the plea agreement https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nmid.6474/gov.uscourts.nmid.6474.2.0.pdf it appears that for all practical purposes Wikileaks is dead, the DNC’s secrets have been returned to the IC for safekeeping and future leaks will be to the major media outlets as the Beltway’s power brokers prefer it.

26. Biden administration abandoned these informants when he ran from Afghanistan.

27. As I recall, over 3/4 of Assange’s “leaks” were US military data, not the US government spying on Americans. (As if we didn’t already know.) Notice that Assange successfully found asylum in Russia. I never had much sympathy for him.

    Here’s the late great Jerry Pournelle on the 91,000 documents released to WikiLeaks by Assange with particular focus on the Afghan War:
    ______________________________________________________

    My firm conclusion is that the Wikileaks are an act of treason. They release the names of Afghan allies: villagers who have been converted to the notion of liberal democracy, and clan leaders who decided that the Allies are in Afghanistan to stay, and can eventually win, and that it is better for their clansmen to cooperate with the Allies than with the Taliban. Those names are now released, and those identified are doomed, as are their families.The Taliban and al Qaeda have long memories, and there is much to be gained by making examples of those those who collaborate with the West.

    A corollary conclusion is that the current US goals in Afghanistan cannot now be achieved. This is a direct consequence of the Wikileaks. I hasten to add that I have always had grave reservations about those goals, largely because I was pretty sure that something like Wikileaks would happen: the names of collaborators is such an enormously attractive target that it would attract a lot of effort, not only by the Taliban and al Qaeda, but also by the intelligence services of countries who do not want the US to succeed in the Great Game in Afghanistan, and also by free lance secret sellers. The Taliban and al Qaeda would have paid enormous sums for the information now available on Wikileaks; only now they don’t have to, and they can apply those resources to other objectives including making hideous examples of the collaborators and their families. It may take weeks, it may take longer, but the atrocity stories are already in the making.

    There are several conclusions.

    First (and of lesser importance), this was an act of treason. The US cannot of course try the Australian editor of Wikileaks for treason, but I do wonder if Australia doesn’t have a case. The Aussies have lost troops in Afghanistan and if they stay around they will lose more. In the US treason consists of levying war against the United States or giving aid and comfort to its enemies. I put it to you that when the Legions are committed and the costs are billions, this is war; and little that anyone could do would give more aid and comfort to our enemies than giving out the names of our friends, converts, and informants in Afghanistan. Of course, as a matter of honor we are obliged to offer aid and sanctuary to our friends and allies and their families .

    Second and more importantly, the war is now unwinnable under our present definition of win. Therefore, we need a new set of goals and a strategy for Afghanistan, and we need to start adopting it now. Whether or not establishment of a liberal democracy centered in Kabul was ever possible, it is not possible now. The Wikileaks have made it clear that Afghans who cooperate with the US must do so openly and be prepared for the consequences: you will not do so covertly. We also know from Wikileaks — of course we knew it all the time — that the presence of armed US soldiers in Afghanistan are great causes for resentment. We need to get them out of there. Up to now we have been able to generate some cooperation by means of raining benefits on those who cooperate. After the coming atrocities that’s going to be a lot tougher.

    –Jerry Pournelle RIP

28. My other grudge against Assange was his website, IQ.org. (Nice domain snag!) Another bright hacker guy in love with his own imagined brilliance, hitting the nitrous oxide tank too hard

    IQ.org can still be found on the WayBack Machine. Here are few of the shorter entries.
    __________________________________________

    Tue 13 Mar 2007 : Do electric sheep dream of f16’s?

    In the morning, the call to prayer rises from mosque to citadel, the sun lights the haze into a furnace, glowing and aglow, casting long golden shadows into dusty streets, where swallows swoop on blinking gendarmes, while above them young girls water roof top sheep and pigeon boys climb their hutches to wave great checkered flags at distant points in the sky.

    Mon 17 Jul 2006 : Pit and pendulum

    Intelligence and sadness may sometimes be correlated, but it seems far more in the application than in the possession for while the mind is a rope to pull one out of the pit and those in it sometimes show it to desperate degree once free and on the surface the same rope can also scale heights of love and accomplishment invisible from the narrow confines below.

    Mon 17 Jul 2006 : Female mathematics

    Mathematics is a systemization of communicable human thought created by brain architectures that have male-type spacial abilities and extremised by the extremes within that group. Extreme female brain architectures would create a different sort of mathematics. It won’t be created by the females currently in mathematics because they need a male type brain to thrive in the existing mathematical world. Perhaps a good cognitive neuroscientist will do it for them.

    –Julian Assange
    https://web.archive.org/web/20071020051936/http://iq.org/

29. My opinion is similar to huxley’s. Assange and the leaks may have had their uses in checking abuses of power by the US and others, but frankly that was incidental to his overall objective of being a useful tool for anti-Western goons. Whatever intellectual or ethical merit he had went out the window when he had many people murdered by the Taliban.

    Moreover to be blunt there are many times when I honestly do not WANT to know that our military or political leadership are fumbling or do not have a clear plan to win the war, because if I know it means almost everybody with the right contacts and an internet connection knows. Sometimes – especially in ugly terrorist hunt conflicts – you’re going to be muddling through and trying to figure things out. In hindsight it is fairly clear a lot of that did not help at all (especially toleration of massive corruption and “Bacha Bazi” from the so called Afghan Republic), but I fail to see how Assange’s leaks on those grounds helped.

    Indeed, they very likely hurt us and were invaluable to our enemies by doing the counter intelligence work of Al Qaeda and the Taliban for us, while he gloated about how they would murder informants.

    Assange deserves to die in exile, or face the hangman. Whether the interests of the American Constitution or the law would deserve or be best served by that is another thing, but that’s a moot point since who believes that is why Biden and co are doing this?

    Moral of the story: You can betray and cause the deaths of countless innocent people, but don’t dare leak the DNC’s dirty laundry.

30. I would say the largest impact was triggering the so called Arab Spring in Tunisia then Egypt and Libya, revealing the corruption in those three allies who were against the Brotherhood, bin Ali, Mubarak and Qaddafi in their own way, all three had by degrees opposed the Brothers, and as such had cultivated cadres of dissidents among their foreign nationals, the Tunisians were considered among the most brutal,

    but this was as much Google, Brin and Facebook Zuckerberg, fanning a color revolution, so Bin Ali had worn out his welcome, as Bourguiba had thirty years earlier, during similar food riots, another key faction, of the Egyptians like Zawahiri, ali Mohammed, Mohammed Atef Seif Al Adel the last is still alive and has taken over Al Queda

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