More evidence of the depressing increase in political polarization and hatred
I had a friend about fifteen years ago, we’ll call her Marjorie. We were fairly good friends for about seven years, and then we both moved away and ended up living over an hour from each other and the friendship slowly faded. We haven’t communicated now in a couple of years, but I still have access to her Facebook page even though I’m not active on Facebook.
When we were friends, I knew that she was a liberal Democrat (I wouldn’t ever have called her a leftist) and she knew I was on the right. It was never an issue between us, and although we sometimes discussed politics we didn’t do so often, and we never argued. It was one of those “agree to disagree” things, for the most part. Our friendship was based on other commonalities.
To the best of my recollection, we still were in touch during the Trump years, although not often. But it was just the natural attrition caused by time and distance. Every now and then I’d check her Facebook page and see what she was doing: her kids and grandkids and travels and garden and that sort of innocuous, pleasant stuff. Did she ever post anything political? I don’t recall seeing anything at all, but if I did it was of a mild sort.
But a little while ago I saw that she’d recently posted the following text, which apparently first started circulating back in 2022. I reproduce the whole thing here for you; the original had a different last sentence (which you can find at the link):
Dear Republican Party: You sold your soul. You used to stand for patriotism but sold your soul to a traitor who conspired with an enemy to destroy our democracy.
You used to stand for our armed forces but sold your soul to a draft dodger who mocked their courage and sacrifice.
You used to stand for hardworking Americans but sold your soul to a con man who made his fortune by cheating them.
You used to stand for the American dream but sold your soul to a racist who traded the Statue of Liberty for walls and cages while praising the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers.
You used to stand for family values but sold your soul to a predator who betrayed all three of his wives.
You used to stand for Jesus but sold your soul to a wolf in sheep’s clothing who has made a mockery of Christianity.
Currently under investigation for tax fraud, voter fraud, insurrection and violation of the Espionage Act, you continue to defend his lies. Whatever he paid you for your soul, I hope it was worth it. But knowing him, you’re probably still waiting for your check.
I’m not even going to bother fisking the supposed facts in the message; the falsehood of so many of them isn’t why I’m spotlighting this. I am more amazed at the fact that this previously mild-mannered and non-vitriolic person saw fit to post it with approval, as though excoriating half her fellow Americans for losing their souls to what amounts to a devil seemed an appropriate thing for her to do. I assume that she has no current friends on the right (I wouldn’t count, since we haven’t been in touch at all for four years or so).
It’s chilling because she used to be tolerant of other points of view, and it wasn’t all that long ago, and to the best of my recollection even included some of the Trump years. Her posting this makes me very sad, because it means either that she knows no one anymore who is a Republican and/or that she has no problem publicly insulting her Republican friends and acquaintances and relatives.
This behavior is very different from that of the person I used to know. But this post is not really about Marjorie. It’s that I think she’s emblematic of a great many other people. Something – and I believe it’s been the unremitting propaganda from the left, mostly based on lies but apparently very persuasive – has accomplished the transformative task.
Take a look at this long interesting Tucker Carlson interview on the Shaun Ryan show, in which Carlson makes some very interesting points as, for instance, that our ruling class is actually a very unimpressive group of people, and although they like to think they are very knowledgeable, they lack that knowledge, and basically have no skills, moreover, they are jealous of those who do, and because of their envy and jealousy they just want to destroy what they themselves are incapable of creating.*
Thus, as one example, they hate beauty, and the supposed “art” and architecture people of this class create and praise is ugly.
The conflict between those who have talent and want to create, and those who have no talent and want to take credit for, or to destroy everything which other, more talented people have created, is the eternal story. (See “The Fountainhead.”)
The vandalism we see all around us is the primitive expression of that instinct to deface and to destroy what you are incapable of creating; it is motivated by hatred and jealousy.
If I correctly understand what Carlson was saying (and I’m pretty surprised by the tack he takes), on it’s most fundamental level, everything is spiritual i.e. we here on Earth are embroiled in the eternal battle between the spiritual powers of good and the spiritual powers of evil, and every development here on Earth is an expression of that battle.
And, thus, for instance, speaking of the UFO Phenomenon, NHIs are likely spiritual entities, and such spiritual entities–the physical embodiment of higher level spiritual beings–have been with us forever, and their appearances and actions/interactions with us Human beings have been recorded in the myths and sacred texts of every religion.
* See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uElaHUSM7fI&t=9145s
TDS. It’s the REAL pandemic.
The 2020s feel a lot like the 1930s
The Democrats have been marching towards ideology & race-based genocide for a long time.
People consumed by this kind of irrational hatred are endangering their own souls, sadly. The people pushing the lies are the ones in really serious trouble.
One advantage of being a recluse is fewer opportunities for unpleasant interactions with nut bars. It also helps to just smile and nod like you might agree while resisting the urge to punch someone in the throat. Of course that didn’t help that Sandman kid.
A good chunk of polarization is the divide over election fraud being either okay or not okay. People who see Trump as “literally Hitler” probably think fraud is okay if it supports their life-and-death cause.
Speaking of which, 2024 could be a replay of 2020.
June 4, 2024:
…Our findings reveal a staggering number of counties with more registered voters than eligible citizens…
Banned Lizard:
I disagree with your first paragraph. I know tons of Democrats, and not a single one believes election fraud occurred in 2020, nor do they think it will occur in 2024.
No doubt there are some people who meet your description, but not a large percentage of the rank and file Democrats.
This is the cost of Trump. He fights. Sure, he is also an erratic juvenile who comes off as a complete jagoff to just about anyone who isn’t already in his camp. It is not at all surprising how people would find that off-putting or even threatening.
It isn’t the case that people like neo’s friend just woke up one day and decided to become polarized.
Unless he wins then they will be sure its voter fraud see 2000 2004 and 2016 it rather unsurprising their insanity
Why else did frontline air the helderman expose as well as hbo how did tapper start his career among the hanging chads of florida michael moore got to his full creosote dimensions in 2000 the late vincent bugliosi and very much alive dersh lost their minds back then katherine harris was a focal
point
12 years! After reagan they came up with the october surprise so yeah tell me about the irrationality of the right.
Neo, not that it would change anyone’s minds, but we don’t know if there was election fraud on a wide scale– since the single easiest way to cheat, and most likely method would be mail-in ballots and the signature verification process. No court has ever allowed a robust, neutral verification of signature match between the ballot envelope and the signature of record.
The other ways the election was effected was the arbitrary change to voting regulations by the judiciary.
We may be convinced based on events on the ground, but that is just wild speculation in the eyes of those who are convinced our elections are fair and secure.
I think there are a couple of reasons why changing minds is so hard. Once a person accepts that people have used unethical/immoral/illegal methods to affect the election, the person’s worldview is seriously damaged about other actions by our government.
Some don’t mind if it’s in the pursuit of a higher goal, keeping democracy safe from the authoritarian right.
I know you know all this. At some point a courageous judge will allow this verification and put to rest one way or the other what we are already convinced of.
Bauxite, these lies and irrational hatreds began long before Trump. I remember the slurs and ugliness thrown at G.W. Bush. I remember Joe Biden, fifty miles from here, telling black voters Mitt Romney was going to put them back in chains. If we’d nominated Ron DeSantis, as I hoped for, he would now be the target of all kinds of inflammatory garbage.
And has the CC™ been in dialog with the folks he knows about The Great Orange Whale, sharing the tone of moderation and discernment and absolving the left of all responsibility for demonization of a large portion of the American public?
One wonders what role CC™ has been playing.
It happened to all my friends from university immediately after the election in 2016. It was not a gradual process.
We had productive and interesting arguments about politics before that.
Afterwards, they were completely disrespectful and unhinged.
Very sad.
Bauxite:
To any objective eye and ear, Biden comes off worse.. Plus he has harmed the US and the entire world.
My friend was not posting this sort of thing until quite recently. It isn’t Trump; it’s the lies told about him. I was not initially in the “Trump camp” at all and yet I can see this. Your own TDS is getting in your way, I believe.
The easiest way is de tune the scanners so every ballot needs election worker adjudication. The election worker then decides who’s tally to assign the ballot to usually just far enough away from the observers that they can’t really tell what is going on. In some cases new ballots are printed to replace the ones that “couldn’t be scanned” in case of recount. The workers can also just move batches of ballots.
I think about 10 million votes were switched from Trump to Biden nation wide. The rest of the difference was just fabricated.
Any election under the control of donkeys is automatically suspect.
Neo,
Anyone, anyone who tells you they’re tolerant of other view points is to be considered with great suspicion.
. . . just as people who *swear* they’re “independent” as voters may as well be considered liberal — based on my subjective experience(s). Your mileage may vary.
Weve been seeing this pattern for nearly 25 years now
Quite a laundry list of complaints about DJT. Each is hyperbole.
The only one with a kernel of truth is that he’s been married three times. To accuse him of adultery because of divorces is jumping to a conclusion based on the Stormy Daniels claim. And what other Presidents may have committed adultery? I can think of three – all Democrats.
How many people still believe the Steele Dossier? Apparently quite a few. We thought the Mueller Report put that to bed. Nope.
He closed the border and attempted to get immigration under control. And that’s desecrating the Statue of Liberty? Emma Lazurus’ poem doesn’t say to cross the border illegally. It invites the “huddled masses yearning to be free” to immigrate through Ellis Island, which was where so many legal immigrants came to this country. Having a secure border is not an insult to the Statue of Liberty.
“You used to stand for Jesus but sold your soul to a wolf in sheep’s clothing who has made a mockery of Christianity.” What?? Tell me how “Lyin’ Joe Biden” is an advertisement for Christianity.
The claim that he mocked our military people is unproven. At least Trump backed our military and rebuilt it from the Obama years. Tell us how Biden has improved the military by promoting woke policies and inviting trans people to join? Why are the enlistment goals not being met with Biden as C-in-C.
The investigations and indictments. How difficult is it to see how flimsy the charges are, and to recognize that three prosecutors – James, Brag, and Willis – all ran for election promising to find a way to indict Trump?
Trump is no angel. Neither were JFK, LBJ, and Bill Clinton. Yet, Democrats found them perfectly acceptable.
TDS is an acquired malady. When Trump was a Democrat, or at least seemed to be one, they all thought he was a GREAT MAN.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/here-s-what-oprah-winfrey-said-after-donald-trump-requested-her-to-be-his-running-mate-in-2000/ar-BB1lcmWv
Her posting this makes me very sad, because it means either that she knows no one anymore who is a Republican and/or that she has no problem publicly insulting her Republican friends and acquaintances and relatives.
_______
Given my experience with friends (mostly ex-) and family on the left, I don’t think that’s quite right. Usually, it’s clear they don’t think they are insulting us. They truly believe their take is self evidently correct. And our denial of that is, per se, wicked.
I recently (and reluctantly) attempted to share my perspective on the Trump trial with a relative, and quickly found that they flatly disbelieved my assertions concerning the many questionable legalities of the charges, the objectivity of the judge and jury, and the general conduct of the trial.
I assume it is because their primary source of information is the NYT, NPR, and the local newspaper. None of the questionable aspects of the case were even mentioned in these sources, which confined themselves to expounding on the lurid nature of the prosecution witness testimony, the unique identity of the defendant, and the possible impact on the upcoming election.
They knew literally nothing about a single exonerating factor of the case, simply because their trusted sources flatly refused to mention anything that could not be made to reflect badly on Trump. Thus they assumed I was making anything else up out of whole cloth.
Neo:
You are completely correct. I’m grateful you caught my misstatement about views on vote fraud. The polarization is actually over whether fraud happened and how much evidence there is to support it.
Democrats still say there was no evidence at all. MAGA watched the fraud documentation build from voluminous on election day, to mountainous soon after, to finally oceanic.
The shenanigans were done in such a ham-handed way that our noses were practically rubbed in it. And yet Bill Maher, for example, is oblivious about it to this day.
Exactly this. I’ve told everyone I am far less a Trump fan than I am a hater of the media lies and propaganda efforts.
If the worse ever does come, forget the other politicians or side, hit the journalist buildings first. THEY are the true enemy.
My theory, FWIW. They have a visceral hatred of Trump ( and he isn’t that likeable). But by their lights hatred is an unworthy emotion, so they try to rationalize it by dreaming up crimes and sins he can be reasonably hated for.
@Kate:If we’d nominated Ron DeSantis, as I hoped for, he would now be the target of all kinds of inflammatory garbage…
When it looked like we might, in 2022, he was:
It never stops. It’s the Two Minutes Hate and one day it’s Eurasia and then it’s Eastasia, except that it’s like everyone forgot everything before last week.
And had he been the nominee, the ledes for the articles and editorials on the gay #MeToo scandal unfolding in October 2024 would be writing themselves:
“In a shocking example of life imitating art, the GOP was rocked today by allegations that DeSantis had…”
And of course we’d have to recapitulate the list of every GOP politician ever found consorting with men…
Sennacherib:
She didn’t just assert that she was tolerant. She WAS tolerant. I knew her well, and we used to sometimes discuss politics – in a calm and civilized manner. For many years.
Eeyore:
Isn’t it per se insulting to indicate someone is wicked? And has sold his or her soul to evil?
Ray Van Dune:
Show your relative the Cuomo video. Or the article in New York magazine by some guy who is a Democrat. This one, I think: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-was-convicted-but-prosecutors-contorted-the-law.html
Here’s another. Yale law professor.
I agree, though, that most people haven’t a clue what a travesty the trial was, because their usual sources of information have covered that up.
Concerned Conservative(TM) makes an appearance…anyway.
We have been going down this road for awhile. The country cannot continue on this road. I consider the progs/liberals I know to be brain dead not even considering what they believe is damaging to people in general. They don’t care as long as they win and have power. It is what it is. And I don’t think we are capable of turning back.
Regression to the mean (spirited).
They hated Goldwater, Nixon, George W. Bush, and Palin. They didn’t hate the elder Bush until after he was elected. They didn’t need hate McCain or Romney since both were ineffective politically.
They viscerally hate President Trump for manifold “reasons.” Probably most for pointing out and showing they have gone too far, that they have no limits.
neo on June 4, 2024 at 9:02 pm said:
Eeyore:
Isn’t it per se insulting to indicate someone is wicked? And has sold his or her soul to evil?
_______
Actually, I don’t think it is. More something that should arouse shame, not indignation. (I refer to wickedness. I never mentioned selling one’s soul.)
I just post this elsewhere. It’s OT, but by tomorrow I’ll forget:
I was just at Red State, listening to Larry O’Connor. He dealt with the story that Trump used The Unmentionable Word on The Apprentice. And he cited an old contestant.
That rang a bell, so I asked my wife, whose memory for stuff like that is A+. The contestant accusing him was named Omorosa (sp?), and she made that accusation against another contestant, while the season was still going. (It was the Apprentice.)
Well, Trump went through the tapes carefully, and it seems she was lying. At the time, she tried to say it was all a misunderstanding. At the reunion show he confronted her, saying “We went through it all. You’re lying.”
Now, that must be recoverable. And then thrown in the teeth of the Media scum who are currently pushing the story.
This has been the case for a LONG time. I had an American friend living in Australia who was hard left but we agreed to disagree. She had a friend visit from America and within 5 minutes of meeting her she called me EVIL to my face because I wasn’t far left. The left has long been willing to demonise other for just not agreeing with them, let alone for disagreeing with them.
Breaking it down to the basics – mind/ego, body/selfsame tree/ soul/Self:
One cannot “sell” their soul/Self.
Outsiders, like Marjorie for one example, might read this blog and think that Neo is not tolerant and/or this blog is not tolerant.
Commenter mentioned their opinion of Trump, and another commenter responds back by accusing that commenter of having TDS.
MAGA Trump supporting Republicans have pretty much made Trump the Republican party candidate again. A repeat of 2020 with a lack of tolerance and lots of hate surrounding both candidates. Yes, the Democratic party remains the ‘Party of Hate’, IMHO, but both sides exhibit hate.
I don’t vote for the Republican party – just vote against the Democratic party, i.e., I am not tolerant of either one. Such is the way of eating “sweet and sour fruits” in this life…
Funny how Republicans in the past (mostly dead ones) were OK, but the ones now aren’t. That’s been the left line for my entire 70 years of life.
And all those values listed which Republicans used to uphold were roundly mocked when held by those bygone day Republicans.
I generally find conservatives more rational than liberals, even moreso than the progressive woke.
But it’s still the Planet of the Apes to me.
Take a look at any adversarial Senate or House testimony session and think about what you are seeing. Look at an adversarial interview on a news channel of any stripe. Look at the way courtroom testimony is structured.
I’ve been thinking about this. It’s true, the polarization is bad. It’s true that it’s on both sides, although I really do thing, as objectively as I am capable of analyzing it, that the Left is worse than the Right when it comes to selective comprehension.
I think that the problem that our modern society, our modern interrogations and interactions, fail to reach resolution. We are left with a continuous set of outrages, many of them intentionally stoked – and then, before the legitimate debate happens, before the stokers are held to account and forced to defend their position, before anything is resolved – the issue is dropped and replaced by the next outrage-du-jour.
We can’t resolve anything. By not resolving anything, the miscreants can go right on doing their mischief, and coining the rewards. It’s a strategy of avoiding comeuppance, and it has evolved in modern society into more than an artform – it’s become a way of life, a pathway to success.
Until we are able to structure confrontational sessions where issues are laid out, debated, and resolved, the frustration will continue, the rage will increase, and the societal spring will continue to be wound – until the tension overcomes the restraint. If we want to survive, we have to be able to agree that we need a way to settle things.
Late to the thread this evening, but your friend Neo could be a duplicate of the friend I disconnected yesterday. The one exception is that I know he pretty much is surrounded by leftists/ liberals. He tries to say he’s even handed, but the TDS overwhelms him.
They are brainwashed to hate, and to think their hatred makes them good people.
It’s an effective program, amplified by performative engagement with social media.
As Douglas Murray said recently, in another context, “We need to stop listening to these people.”
Your post reminds me that I started to write a comment on your post about extended family size a short while ago. In explaining about the differences between my mother’s and father’s sides of the family, I mentioned a cousin (on my father’s side of the family) who my family used to be close to, but who we mostly try to avoid interacting with now that she suffers from severe Trump Derangement Syndrome. She posts things like Marjorie did on her Facebook page routinely, along with many things that are much, much worse. The interesting thing is that most of the folks in her community are conservative, as are most of her relatives. Almost no one engages with her deranged posts, but I think most of her Facebook friends and relatives have come to regard her as an angry crone who is obsessed with her hatred of Trump.
About two months ago, her conservative older sister passed away. I’ve not seen her post a word about her sister’s passing on Facebook, and my mother only heard of it because my cousin’s cousin (not a relative of ours) lives nearby and told her about it. They used to be close, but in the past two or three years became estranged for various reasons, but surely the Trump Derangement Syndrome was a contributing factor. Honestly, we are not even sure if anyone has even bothered to tell my cousin that her older sister has passed.
It’s not really “Trump” Derangement Syndrome.
It’s Republican Derangement Syndrome.
Also, I disagree with neo’s disagreement with Banned Lizard’s comment. While I’m sure that “not a single one [of my (i.e., neo’s) Democrat friends] believes election fraud occurred in 2020,” I’m sure that that disbelief arises from their abject refusal to acknowledge the “fraud” (which in my opinion includes the denial of the authenticity of the Hunter Biden laptop) that did occur.
Ira:
The issue of voting fraud is different from the issue of voting rigging (the laptop coverup would be a case of the latter). I was talking about the former. However, to a lesser extent the same holds true for the latter. I think you are underestimating how little attention most people pay to news. I know plenty of people who are only vaguely aware of the laptop or still think it was bogus, because they don’t read the details of the news (just read the headlines), read little of even the big picture articles, and take their positions in through osmosis. These people are for the most part educated and intelligent but uncurious about politics and their political stances formed long long ago.
Just to take one example, at the height of the Hunter laptop brouhaha, I started talking about it to a friend and that person had never even HEARD of the laptop. Have they heard of it by now? I have no idea, but it would not surprise me if the answer is “no.” That sort of thing has happened to me time and again on many topics. These are low information voters but they are not unintelligent people. They just would rather pay attention to other things, because they think they already know enough about politics and find it distasteful.
My tell that a lib knows the election was rigged and are just lying is when they say Trump’s FALSE claim the election was rigged. It is never just “Trump’s claim”. They always add the word false. NPR always, always adds the word false. People leave out unnecessary words. Not that one. They know.
In 2018 I spent 10 hours with my software tutor, 2 hours/wk. A highly intelligent, decent Leftist. We had 1 respectful discussion on politics wherein it was clear we were on other sides of the fence. I’ve continued to interact with her at every fiscal year-end and sporactically as things come up. Always positive. In January, a major snafu resulted in our once again extended interaction via computer. While awaiting a download, she asked me “What do you think of Trump now?” In all these years we never revisited the subject. We then had about a 30 minute discussion. She presents as her bonafides that she watches different newscasts (even Fox sometimes!) while I’m on record as relying on a few blog sites, substacks and podcasts. When she asked if I thought the election was stolen and my response was “yes”. She was incredulous. For her all of the court cases proved otherwise. She followed up with asking me if I thought the earth was flat. Instead of taking offense, I respectfully answered that I believed the earth was a sphere, but that with the way mail-in voting was enacted and carried out there was no way I could vouch for the validity of the election results. The key issue in that 30 minutes was lived experience. I work in Van Nuys and have watched the destruction of the Republic. She lives and moves in Simi Valley, relatively untainted by the breakdown wrought by Democrat policies. When I told her my support of Trump stems from my primary issues centering on abortion and our border and the explosion of crime and lawlessness, she insisted the border failure is the result of both parties–with which I agreed but then stated Trump stands alone on taking that seriously. Her son in law is finishing his PhD in criminology so she trotted out the statistics that crime is down and also the economy is fine. In each case I countered with my own personal experiences which expose the lie to the statistical facade. I always begin with the premise that Trump is a flawed man, we are all flawed. In this case I actually began with that and told her that every person that voted for Biden owes Trump supporters an apology because the man is guilty of so many of the complaints lodged at Trump. We ended as the last time respectfully. She’s a lapsed Catholic, disavowing religion but ceded that it could have a beneficial effect for some, recognizing that it is a major foundation for me. Because I don’t fit the mold of “Trump supporter” the conundrum presents. This is why the propaganda and division is so important. Get people to take the position of Neo’s friend; insult 1/2 of America, even people with whom you’ve had relationship. I understand it but publicly refuse to act on it, even though I feel the nice, deluded people are harming me and my family. Instead of cutting people off, I pray a lot.
So many anecdotal proofs of the vast and, I am afraid unbridgeable gap between the two American camps. I am not sure what unifies those on “the other side,” whom I shall identify merely as leftists, except for their animosity toward whom they perceive to be their ideological opponents, among whom I count myself. The focus of this animosity is, of course, the avatar of those opponents, viz., Trump, but he has been quite accurate in his observation that “they” aren’t out to get him; “they” are out to get “us.” This sharp-and-getting-sharper divide is exacerbated, driven, encouraged and fomented by many in politics and the media, who profit from the situation. The roots of this divide go back decades, but at this point, there is nothing to be gained by more analysis. I imagine the process like an amoeba in the act of mitosis; one sees at the beginning a single, globular entity, and then a gathering into separate halves and finally, a break in the cell wall and the emergence of two, now discreet entities. Of course, in biology, each daughter cell shares a common genetic makeup, whereas in the political mitotic act, one daughter cell contains its parent’s genes and the other contains what amounts to the opposite genetic material. One new cell wishes to retain its traditions and the other wishes to replace them with something else. I hope that our cellular division is peaceful, but I fear that is not what those in the other “cell” desire. It is no longer enough to differ and live and let live; those in the other cell wish our destruction. In that way, they are like thesis/antithesis part of the Hegellian dialectic, but lacking the eventual synthesis. It is simply war, with unconditional surrender being the only possible outcome. Despite our desire to avoid conflict, I believe it is inevitable. The sooner we recognize this and act accordingly, the better our chances of survival. But I don’t think we shall.
Kate – These are not “lies and irrational hatreds of Trump.” The man’s behavior is there for all to see. Right-of-center folks tend to either tolerate it because the alternative is worse, or rationalize it away. I fear that you’ve fallen into the “rationalize it away” camp.
Trump’s behavior is not normal. Trump’s behavior is not that of a stable, mature adult. Trump’s behavior and temperament are certainly not that of the leader of a successful majority coalition. I could go through the litany of his horrendous judgement, awful personal behavior, and downright stupid public actions again, but what’s the point? It’s been covered.
Trump is a troll. His enemies are pure evil. His enemies are also dumb enough to take the bait and show their true colors. But when your game is to deliberately goad your enemies into a white hot rage, you can’t be surprised when that result occurs.
Of course Trump’s MO is huge contributing factor to polarization. Trump’s MO is also the reason that his movement has a hard ceiling of support – a little under 47%.
I don’t know what’s going to happen in November. It could be that this ridiculous NY verdict will cause more people to swallow hard and vote for Trump as the lesser of two evils. It may be that people who aren’t really paying attention will believe that Trump finally got what was coming to him for riding the edge of legality and propriety so often. If I had to bet, I’d wager that this trial will galvanize Republicans and have little to no effect on anyone else. Trump will win about 47% and that the EC will be a toss-up, just like 2016 and 2020.
And that will be a crying shame because after four years of Biden/Harris, the 2024 election really shouldn’t be a close call.
The Dem Left cannot believe it. neo at 6:25PM (maybe 8 comments below top of this thread), writes:
“Banned Lizard:
“I disagree with your first paragraph. I know tons of Democrats, and not a single one believes election fraud occurred in 2020, nor do they think it will occur in 2024.”
You’re both dealing with the ignorant and propagandized victims. You have to step them back and examine their premise of veridicality steming from trust in The System.
Try this. Explain how secure and legitimate elections are done. But aren’t done here.
The recognized UN standard is simple, and follows the British prototype. After voting closes, all sides join on watching a pile of votes get tallied. Everyone’s side is involved in seeing a fair count.
Europeans are much like the Brits. There is a seat on the local council and sometimes a mayor or county official. Then there’s the Member of Parliament to vote for (with the party with the most votes becoming head of government, in general).
So, you have open counting and typically broadcast vote counting of a handful of representative offices, abroad. What of the US?
My first time voting was in the 1970s in a small, exurban town. The ballot was only two paper pages long, with around a dozen offices and referenda.
Ever since, the ballot has grown. After the first time, I moved to bigger cities in two more states, and I can’t recall there being less than 50 items requiring my attention.
60 and pushing 70 items, in all.
My new friends abroad remark, “so, it’s like an IQ test?” Yes. I either study for it in advance (using the newspaper or voting guide, eg, the League of Women Voters material) — or else I skip what I don’t know and mark “No” on a simple yes or no items like to retain a judge or a surprise referenda item, for instance.
I’m sure the average voter does less, and either votes party line or simply skips down ballot “off the newspaper headlines” offices.
Thus, the US ballot is over 10 times longer than internationally. And in place of truly transparent vote counting, we defer to bureaucrats and employ mechanical and bureaucratic systems with bottlenecks of discretion (eg, voter intent is “adjudicated” — recall the 2020 post-election in Florida, for those old enough).
Therefore, we are polarized over the issue: one side readily trusts bureaucrats and the system to be fair and impartial.
The other side, our side, however, knows that bureaucrats have their own interests at stake and therefore their own agenda. And in recent decades, that has metastisized into the hive minded quest for ever expanding technocratic control. Their inherent ambition meets moral superiority, and thus is blinded by hubris and herding of the masses, for their own good! Naturally.
And therefore we see wild skew on Rasmussen’s survey of the average voter versus the Ruling Class 1 percenters — highly urban, high income, two degrees education or more, etc — responding with vote cheating is A-OK to two-thirds of them, versus the alternative universe of normies and average folks with only 7% accepting vote cheating.
That’s about a 10:1 ratio of elites versus normies. It’s shocking. And it defines why there must be a war against the evil Ruling Class elites.
A different and more direct way to challenge the enemy ‘wall of virtue’ and close mindedness is that vote stealing has a long and busy history in America, especially since the colonial era. And annual tallies of vote fraud used to find convictions registering 70-80% Democrats. But even in the 1980s, it reached over 90% . (I believe the Heritage Foundation has a group tracking vote fraud that may have recent and historical data.)
Challenge Democrats to look into their misplaced trust in technocrats — it’s DELUSIONAL…. As Democrat Naomi Wolfe discovered.
Why can’t we have fair and legitimate elections like most of the world where voting has popular checking consequences? Too much comolexity creates bottlenecks that fiscally benefits the well-connected to exploit. That’s all yu need to know.
I’ll let the issue of specific vectors exploiting vote fraud for another time. But here, neo and Powerline blog cover welfare fraud, like the massive Somali $10s of millions in food fraud in Minneapolis as a segue.
CC™ could go through the loop of all The Great Orange Whale horors spining in the CC™ brain.
He could and will.
I don’t talk politics with people on the other side. Generally I don’t talk politics at all, even with people on my side. When the conversation turns to politics I either go silent, go away, or tell people flat out I won’t talk politics. I find political discussions boring and predictable. Mostly it’s about people wanting to tell you what they think. It is not about a free exchange of ideas, Everyone’s mind is made up before the discussion starts. Hence it is not a discussion per se. Example: when a person asks me what I think about Trump now I counter by asking “what do YOU think about Trump?” That person tells me and when he/she is done I nod and say “uh huh, interesting.” And that’s all I say. Some people get angry with me when I do this. I don’t care. Political discussions are a waste of time, even with people you agree with. I mean, what’s the point? The point is just to blow off steam. Which I find boring and usually unpleasant.
Thar he blows we give him chapter and verse of how dems have operated in the last quarter century and crickets
The labourites had similar problems with johnson and brexit and his successors the failure to fulfill the promises lead to the likely takeover maybe farage will derail it
Given my experience with friends (mostly ex-) and family on the left, I don’t think that’s quite right. Usually, it’s clear they don’t think they are insulting us. They truly believe their take is self evidently correct. And our denial of that is, per se, wicked.
Not only that, they sincerely believe that they are helping you see the error of your ways. They are bringing you into the light; if only you wouldn’t be so stupid and evil, you’d see that. They’re giving of themselves so that you’ll be better.
Bauxite: “I fear that you’ve fallen into the “rationalize it away” camp.” Nope. Of course Trump isn’t “normal.” Most politicians at that level aren’t the kind of people you’d want to have over for lunch. Biden is abnormal and dangerous to the nation. This isn’t an ideal choice, but it’s clear that failing to get rid of Democrat control of the central government will be disastrous for us all.
Bauxite, you might consider this comment from an old Neo thread.What Motivates Biden Voters.
Not to mention Biden’s approaches to Israel and Iran….
This guy I find a phrase some people use these days to be a clear marker as to whether they’ve drunk the Koolaid or not. The phrase is “Our Democracy “when did become common place?
On the Trump trials, I find that most of the people I know who are on the left are of the opinion that “He’s bound to be guilty or he wouldn’t be here”. I’ve only been able to talk to one person about the trial in this way; if you went to a bank to get a loan and put up your house as collateral, got the loan never missed a payment and paid off the loan. Then later a DA charged you with fraud because you over valued your house. How would you think about that?
Proud Boys and Oath Keepers
Oath Keeper means keeping your oath to the Constitution. I believe that Oath Keepers were one of the groups that maintained the calm at many of the protests.
Proud Boys are a tough group that got involved when violent leftists started using violence to shut down speech they didn’t approve of. As Tim Poole (who was on the left) noted, Proud Boys only got violent in response to violence (and this while police sat back and allowed the violence to happen).
Also, Proud Boys were warning people off the Charleville thing, it was promoted as “Unite the Right” (and organized by a Clinton supporter!), but they (PB) knew it would be a shitshow.
their approved gang, antifa and blm burned down 50-100 cities, it was an insurgency coordinated planned from the likes of the kellogg foundation,
seattle portland, minneapolis, las vegas san francisco, los angeles those are just some of the places that were targeted, they tried in Miami, they met with some strong resistance,
as it was with the Hamas cheerleaders four years later,
There was a good video of a Proud Boy facing off with an antifa thug and a female antifa. Antifa uses females at the front often since there is reluctance to hit them.
The antifa thug attempted to hit the PB with one of those collapsing batons. PB blocked it and knocked the thug out with a single punch.
Antifa girl attempted to retrieve the baton, but decided she didn’t want to push the issue.
Of course Trump’s MO is huge contributing factor to polarization. Trump’s MO is also the reason that his movement has a hard ceiling of support – a little under 47%.
——————————————-
I am so tired of this lie. So I went to https://www.270towin.com/ and did some calculations by hand. I added up the total votes then divided the Republican raw votes by it (rounding up the percentage to the tenth).
/157,351,334 = 47.2% (2020 – Trump)
/135,516,892 = 46.5% (2016 – Trump*)
/128,125,270 = 47.6% (2012 – Romney)
/129,446,839 = 44% (2008 – McCain)
/121,069,054 = 51.2% (2004 – W.Bush*)
/104,338,914 = 48.4% (2000 – W.Bush*)
/94,686,514 = 41.4% (1996 – Dole)
/103,756,701 = 37.7% (1992 – Bush)
/90,695,671 = 53.9% (1988 – Bush*)
/92,032,260 = 59.2% (1984 – Reagan*)
/86,026,610 = 51% (1980 – Reagan*)
/79,973,609 = 49% (1976 – Ford)
Gee look at that. EVERY republican has a ceiling of about 47% support except for Reagan + Bush 1, and Bush 2 in 2004.
Gee, I wonder what might have happened to give Bush 2 such great support in 2004…
Get it through your skulls, Trump doesn’t have a ceiling, the Republican BRAND has a ceiling.
yeah he did half a point less, than Romney, in a ballot avalanche, and they hadn’t even accused him of torturing dogs but they did profer the fiction he had underpaid his taxes
So the average is 48.1 with a standard deviation of 5.6. Which puts the Democrats at 51.9 with the same sd. So the Democrat “brand” also has the same ceiling. All this says is that the country is evenly split within a 68% probablility. So? It just shows the basic premise of the post: we are a truly divided country with no clear majority on either side. But one side seems to have a lot of vitriol directed irrationally at the other side. Thank the Founders that they recognized such a problem and instituted the electoral college.
Yes, my wife and I have relatives and former friends in this category. Their studied, willful ignorance is stunning to behold. They are going to be very unhappy people after November…. and probably insufferable too.
Of course Trump’s MO is huge contributing factor to polarization.
Trump is a moderate NYC Republican who at times left the party and was either independent or Democrat (due to W’s war).
Trump does express himself in a manner that does seem to upset the typical educated female establishment type (and similar people). But for the most part, the claim that Trump drives division or TDS is false. The Democrats simply seize whatever they can and drive it as far as they can.
Of course Trump’s MO is huge contributing factor to polarization.
In 2016, the Demos attacked Trump the same way they did other prominent Republicans. Like Chimpy McBush Hitler…Mitts and his dog… The difference is that, in contrast to Dubya/McCain/Mitts, Trump did not turn the other cheek, but fought back. I was not initially a Trump supporter, but he won me over by not meekly submitting to the attacks coming from the Demos.
I wonder if it’s just tje Democrats/ Marxists Propaganda Ministry working on the masses 24/7. I don’t put on tv much except Formula one races ( since 1996) and movies so I have only website reports what they do but bet it’s diatribe always.
a master course in missing the point
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2024/06/04/florida-republicans-woke-justice-maxwell/
I strongly ‘ditto’ Kate’s reply to Bauxite.
Gringo’s, too.
Like Lincoln said about U. Grant, ‘I need him. He fights! ‘
.
In Oct 2016, I had to go to a branch of Austin tax offices about a car title issue. The waiting room was full. An older woman wanted to talk, so I let her. She was caretaker of her ill husband, a recently retired Harvard graduate & judge. For some reason, she got talking politics. She made clear her HORROR at having recently seen some guys wearing t-shirts with ‘Lock Her Up’ on the front. I said something like ‘Well, she did break classified information handling laws’.
The lady stared at me like I grew a locust head!
She said ‘surely you know Clinton needs to win the WH?!!! ‘
I said “why?”
Answer: “We need experts like her, with ivy league degrees, to run the government!!”
Oh.
Media +
Infotech +
Social media +
A huge cohort that has no compunctions about lying, deceiving, censoring, covering up, cancelling, demonizing.
Combine and blend well.
Rinse and repeat 24/7.
Bake at hellish temperatures.
Voila! Blind, visceral, uncontrollable rage and hatred.
File under: Protecting OUR Democracy.
Had a Thing happen yesterday which may connect. Was in a discussion session with mostly liberal church people. Subject of Fauci’s congressional testimony came up.
I pointed out that, among other things, people who had no biological background believed with the certainty of a Galileo that HCQand Ivermectin were useless, verging on to poison. And only people stupid enough to be Trump voters knew doctors were reporting good results. And being threatened.
Now the FDA says both are effective therapeutics. So the Trump voters were right. Now what?
Nobody was happy.
One guy, always going on about SCIENCE insisted that people who are skeptical of Covid vaxxing must also oppose MMR, smallpox, polio, so forth. It’s about the fifth time I’ve had that conversation with him.
So why is it that liberal/left are so often believing the opposite of reality? What’s in it for them for trying to force it on others? Remember “The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS”? For years, we were all gonna die and no amount of evidence had any effect.
And the same is true of global warming.
And if one opposes the effort, one is hated. Perhaps it’s a two step process. Disagree with the obviously false which is believed by the left and the left hates you.
Is it possible that’s because they know, deep down, that you’re right and that’s a threat?
Because following what they think, they have the ability to force massive changes on us as individuals and as a society.
well that was fauci’s doing, and in the interim he blocked bactrim and azt as likely therapeutics that could have reduced the death count, as I recall reasonable measure taken in the bath houses in san francisco, would have prevented the epidemic, but the head of the board of supervisors mevyn silverman, who ended up the head of AMFAR the leading charity wouldn’t hear of it, so they attacked Reagan and C Everett Coop and everyone in between, and didn’t really criticise the ones who made the epidemic possible, this was one of Horowitz and Colliers awakenings, as he relates in Destructive Generation, why did they do this, they wanted a politically enraged and engaged gay community, they actually thought epidemiology followed their own social precepts, or some other notion,
Which puts the Democrats at 51.9 with the same sd. So the Democrat “brand” also has the same ceiling. All this says is that the country is evenly split within a 68% probablility.
–?——————–
And that is with the media constantly running interference and aid for them. Imagine how things would be if reporting was even remotely fair and accurate.
The Dems aren’t the enemy, the media is.
There is the fact that DJT had more votes his second election by a sizable percent
What is not very well understood with respect to ‘Election Fraud’ is that we do NOT need to prove that it happens. The other side needs to prove that it DOESN’T happen.
Why?
Cause this isn’t a court case. This is them wooing the reluctant objects of their quest. Like a young man wooing a young lady, they need to make the case that they can be trusted.
To which I say, ‘Trust Democrats? You can’t be serious.’