American Jews and “Christophobia”
[Hat tip: commenter “Cornflour.”]
Arnold Kling has written a fairly short piece entitled “Jewish Christophobia.” In it, he says:
One reason that most Jews are reluctant to move right is that they have what I call Christophobia. This is not a fear of Christ. It is a fear of Christians. Many Jews fear that Christians are either out to convert Jews or otherwise make American Jews feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.
I was surprised, though, when I read the piece, that it leaves out quite a bit. What is left out is what I’d roughly call “history,” although there are other things left out, too. So I’ll try to fill them in a bit.
(1) Many of the Jews that Kling mentions are ethnic Jews only, and as atheists or agnostics some of them fear traditional religion and the religious in general. They believe – in some cases correctly – that some people who are extremely religious are out to impose their beliefs on others. Not all Jews of the atheist variety support Israel, either, for similar reasons, nor do they identify with it. The rise of anti-Semitism post-10/7 may have given them cause to re-evaluate these points of view, because it’s not the religious Christians who are visibly anti-Semitic these days, it’s their fellow atheists and leftists. But that realization is new.
(2) And then there’s history. The history of anti-Semitism has a long long Christian phase. One doesn’t have to go all the way back to the Crusades to find it, either. Although the Holocaust and the Nazis were NOT a Christian undertaking – the Nazi leaders themselves were anti-Christian for the most part and many members of the German resistance and in particular the plot to kill Hitler were devout Christians – the truth is that the Holocaust happened in Christian nations. Most of those who participated and/or cooperated in a lesser way would probably have described themselves as Christians.
It wasn’t just the Holocaust, either. Pogroms happened in Christian countries, in particular in Eastern Europe and Russia, in times so recent that many American Jews heard grandparents or even parents talk about them, depending on the age of the listener. It’s not at all unusual for American Jews to have had grandparents or great-grandparents murdered in a pogrom, and although pogroms had many motivators one of the things that was often present was the anger of Christians at the alleged Christ-killers, the Jews. This was especially the case the further back in time you go, and it’s mostly absent today. But that’s a relatively recent phenomenon. You can read about the history here, and note that there were Jew-blaming portions of Christian liturgy until quite recently. And apparently some Christian branches still contain such things as this:
The Holy Friday liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as well as the Byzantine Rite Catholic churches, uses the expression “impious and transgressing people”, but the strongest expressions are in the Holy Thursday liturgy, which includes the same chant, after the eleventh Gospel reading, but also speaks of “the murderers of God, the lawless nation of the Jews”, and, referring to “the assembly of the Jews”, prays: “But give them, Lord, their reward, because they devised vain things against Thee.”
(3) Kling writes, “many Jews will say that ‘the only reason Evangelicals support Israel is because they believe in a prophecy that when all the Jews move to Israel they will be converted to Christianity.’” I think that’s a correct statement of the beliefs of at least some Jews, and for the most part I think it’s a false belief. But note that I say “for the most part.” It is certainly the case – I see it over and over – that at least some Evangelicals support Israel for exactly that reason. Christianity, unlike Judaism, is after all a proselytizing religion, and the goal and hope of some – not all, but a significant number of – devout Christians is that the Jews will indeed convert to Christianity some day. In the very olden days, that was sometimes accomplished by violent and/or coercive means, and these days it’s peaceful. But the idea that some Jews might still see the goal of conversion as a potential threat is neither crazy nor completely unjustified, and it is up to Christians to show otherwise.
I believe that more and more Jews are realizing as time goes on that Christians are their best friends and allies. But there are very strong reasons why this understanding has been somewhat slow in coming.
NOTE: In 2015 I wrote this long post on a related theme, entitled “On Jews disliking evangelicals.”
I think it’s broader than that. Many, many educated/urban/upper-middle-class people–not only Jews–feel contempt and fear toward those who are rural, southern, non-college, and/or Christian. I explored the reasons in my post The Phobia(s) That May Destroy America:
https://ricochet.com/548927/the-phobias-that-may-destroy-america-2/
Kling makes good points, and so do you, Neo. History makes it easy to understand why many Jews are wary of Christianity.
It’s a new generation, though, and at present fanatically Jew-hating Muslims are allied with Jew-hating and civilization-hating leftists.
Indeed, Christians need to be clear that they do NOT intend to force conversions on anyone.
I have developed a particular issue with my local Republican Party meetings. Because so many of them are Southern Baptists or independent evangelicals, gatherings are often filled with prayers and even short Bible studies suitable to those denominations. I have no criticism to offer of Baptists or evangelicals in general, but I don’t think these talks belong at political party meetings. We want Jews, and atheists, and Hindus to vote with us, don’t we? We want anyone who favors constitutional government and freedom to vote with us. If we make meetings explicitly religious, we only exclude potential allies.
Don’t forget that some evangelical support for Israel is built around a concrete self-serving belief in Genesis 12:3,”I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse…”
It’s an effort to stay on God’s good side.
I’d be curious what is so scary about the Christian imperative to mission… what you refer to as “proselytizing.” It’s certainly not at the point of an Inquisitor’s sword any longer and rooted in a genuine desire to see the promised abundant life flourish in another and the ancient promise to Abraham reach its full intention.
Jew or Buddhist, Hindu or Rastafarian or anything in between…I suspect many Christians even here among the community of Neo-philes would likely agree with Paul, Acts 26:29 “Short time or long—I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am…”
Even Penn Gillette, as an atheist, used to argue that if you believe something is as important as eternal life you’d better proselytize or you’re not serious about what you believe.
Linked earlier in another thread (by Karmi, I think?), this Tablet piece makes an interesting accompaniment to Kling’s short essay: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/live-law-die-cross-israel
Kate:
I’d be curious to know what the reaction is if you bring that up.
I may do that, Neo. I have a neighbor who votes conservative and is a Buddhist (Vietnamese refugee).
John Guilfoyle:
Let’s say there’s a group dedicated to converting you from Christianity – telling you that unless you convert you are not going to heaven and are perhaps going to hell. Would that bother you, particularly if you are a small and previously persecuted group by that larger group trying to convert you?
Is it really so hard to understand why that is scary?
Christianity is not just a proselytizing religion. In its relation to Judaism, it has historically also been a replacement religion and for some Christians it still is. Judaism is neither proselytizing nor replacement, it is an origin religion that believes in “live and let live” and that all religions and all righteous people have a place in the world to come.
And then there is the progressive Christain evangelist in our congregation who appears to be an apologist for the “Palestinians,” that is the kind of Christian a Jew should not trust. Forbearence, comity, and prudence are difficult to practice at times.
Great post, neo.
Hey, Jesus Christ was a Jew!
Westwern civilization was Judaeo-Christian inspired and led.
The Progs can try to trash that in order to become our neo-Soviet rulers. That thinking predominates New England and the Left Coast.
I live in the Southland. Our thinking is different here, and we worship our Heavenly Father and his Holy Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, with regularity. We will not fade, either. I live in the most Catholic city in the entire USA, and that ain’t Los Angeles
or Boston, either!
“Let’s say there’s a group dedicated to converting you from Christianity – telling you that unless you convert you are not going to heaven and are perhaps going to hell. Would that bother you…” – neo
Depends on whether or not I believed their God was the true Creator/Judge of the Universe.
Jesus, the Author of our salvation, commanded his followers to go out into the world and make disciples.
The message has changed from “sinners in the hands of an angry God” to “the Lord….is not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
I would suggest the commandment to make disciples became distorted by human corruption to include by any means necessary. But that is not the Gospel.
I agree with John Guillfoyle that evangelicals support Israel from that promise given to Abraham.
I emerged from a mere six years of Catholic school a Christophobe. I was rather surprised to find myself born-again thirty years later.
I can hardly blame the Jews for their Christophobia.
I still find Christians who go on with certainty about the End Times or how the Roman Catholic Church is absolutely the One True Church scary.
Somewhat O/T, but when you talk about proselytizing it’s unfair to lump all of Christianity together. My own experience is that it’s on a spectrum, with JWs and Mormons at one extreme, and (probably) Unitarians at the other. I’m Lutheran myself and the church I grew up in wasn’t especially gung ho about recruiting. I also went to an all boys Catholic high school 50 years ago, and the priests did not try to convert the 10% or so of the student body that was not Catholic so much as they let you know in ways both subtle and not-so-subtle that your belief was the wrong one.
Hey, Jesus Christ was a Jew!
Only on his mother’s side.
well certainty after Matthew 24, seems a little doubtful, what exactly are Unitarians good for, Yes he was and he simplified what had become a byzantine set of rules by some,
well the Father certainly was on the side of the Chosen people, but as it was said by Jesus on many occasions, the fate of the prophets is to be scorned and persecuted,
consider Jeremiah’s warning that were not headed, elements included in Verdi’s Nabucco if memory serves,
yes the Apocryphal segment, recorded in Las Casas, re the Carib chief Hatuey confronting the Spaniards, when he asks where are they going, he says in rejoinder, I want to be the furthest from
“Let’s say there’s a group dedicated to converting you from Christianity”
Ok…Western culture since the Gramscian march began.
My oldest daughter had a high school teacher tell her, “park your Christianity at the school curb” simply because my daughter had explained that CS Lewis’ books were the Christian gospel retold as children’s tales when another student commented on the Lion, Witch & Wardrobe as a “good” book.
My 2nd oldest just told me one of her university professors started the new term with “throw away your values & do things that don’t sit well with them.” She is daily accosted on her campus by Marxists (a student association) the Greens, & the Rainbow folks…all proselytising their ‘religion’ much more forcefully than the campus “fountain preachers” (the only place allowed on campus for such activity) back in my University days.
How many times in my 60+ years of living have those same experiences been repeated in my life, as bosses, colleagues, neighbours & friends acted out Genesis 3 in real time in my life. Hollywood? The ad market? Disney? Believe me, the Western world in all its arms & flourishes is trying to distance itself from its Christian roots & actively working against Christian faith. We’re just seeing the latest unfold around us. The Australian government is desperately pushing through legislation that would make it illegal for Christian schools to hire uniquely Christian teachers.
Worse than what the Jews have experienced? I would NEVER make that claim, but…actively trying to walk me away from what I believe? Yep. Every doggone day. And let’s pull up a chair alongside some living Iranian Christians…they might have a word to say here.
“Christianity is not just a proselytizing religion. In its relation to Judaism, it has historically also been a replacement religion…”
That’s not what the earliest disciples of Jesus thought, taught, or lived. “Replacement?” How about “fulfilment”? That’s the New Testament’s language. The reality to the shadow that came before. The apostles always pointed to the Hebrew Scriptures as being fulfilled in Jesus.
Judaism is “live & let live,” only in its post-exilic framework. The Seven Nations of Canaan would like a word. (tongue firmly in my cheek) But seriously…Israel was intended to draw all nations to Jerusalem…to the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob who lead ultimately to Jesus. The last words of Genesis 3 point to a universal solution to a universal problem…and that universal solution emerges through a particularly unimpressive Abraham & his descendants.
Why would I withhold from you or anyone else directions to water in a thirsty world or a dry moment in your life? I would expect no less from you if I were in need & you knew where that need could be met.
“I still find Christians who go on with certainty about the End Times or how the Roman Catholic Church is absolutely the One True Church scary.”
You & me both!
John Guilfoyle:
The people who are trying to talk you out of being Christian never were into murdering Christians, nor are Christians a small group these days.
Also, both “replacement” and “fulfillment” are more or less the same to Jews, who do not consider Christianity a “fulfillment” of Judaism. Are you aware that Islam considers itself a “fulfillment” of Christianity? And Jews do NOT believe that “Israel was intended to draw all nations to Jerusalem…to the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob who lead ultimately to Jesus.” They do not believe that Christianity is the reality and they are the mere prelude, the “shadow that came before.” Do you not see why that sort of language would be offputting – to put it mildly – to Jews?
Sgt. Joe Friday:
You are certainly correct that not all Christians are interested in proselytizing, and not all types of Christianity are equally proselytizing. But in general Christianity is a proselytizing religion in that it actively seeks converts, and it is commonly believed by many Christians that Christianity is the only path to salvation.
Judaism is very different. As I already wrote, it believes that all righteous people have a place in the world to come. It does not proselytize or seek converts. It accepts converts, but they must be very motivated.
“the end times” so forth. Scary? Murderously boring. What am I missing?
God had a plan: We have an odd number of digits on our hands. This allows for a middle finger. I try not to be that rude.
There is/are a host or reasons historical and cultural that so many Jews vote as they do. But why is it lost on them that it’s frequently against their best interests?
A friend posted a big deal on Facebook about “character” and Trump.. Is character important to you? Implication is you don’t vote for Trump if character is important to you.
What would follow to a rational person is what the alternative is and what it means. And what “character” is there.
But that is entirely lost on this person.
Not sure she’s deeply, deeply committed and has made a choice knowing the alternative. Or she’s lightly indulging her feelings because…she’s always done that.
I know a number of Christians, or raised Christian and have gone agnostic or something, who partake of the “bumpkin” caricature of conservatives. They have to vote the opposite way or they’d be….uneducated, gap-tooth bumpkins.
I don’t know enough Jews well enough to figure out what it is that puts a wall between them and knowing the actual results of their voting.
But we live in a huge, complex society with any number–uncountable–of factors coming and going, reinforcing or cancelling one another, with various institutions required to take the edge off various contingencies. The actual result, good or bad, of our vote might not come back to bite us with our ballot attached. So perhaps indulging our feelings, however we came by them, seems a low-risk operation. Something will happen, or not, regardless.
The cost of being “true to oneself” isn’t as high as in the old novels or the moral instructions in some ancient myths.
“Many Jews fear that Christians are either out to convert Jews or otherwise make American Jews feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.”
Admittedly anecdotal but in all my 75 years on this spinning ball, I have yet to have a proselytizing Christian knock on my door and react with anything other than politeness when told, ” thanks but no thanks”. Nor have I ever been witness to a Christian indicating an obvious intent to make a Jew uncomfortable and unwelcome.
Jesus was born a Jew. Nowhere in the New Testament does it state that Jesus ever left the Jewish faith. He died a Jew. Jesus did speak of the necessity to change and become as a little child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He did say, “no man cometh unto the father but through me”. So embracing what he embodied is necessary for salvation. It’s not formal membership in the Christian club that gets you through the door but picking up your ‘cross’ and following him. And our cross consists of all within that keeps us from embodying the palpable trust that little children show when they have a loving father.
“The people who are trying to talk you out of being Christian never were into murdering Christians …” Well, in both India and Egypt, this wasn’t true. And while murdering people for being Christian isn’t in vogue in the US, it’s not unheard-of; think Nashville last year. That murderer was crazy, but many Islamist murderers are not clinically insane.
I’m not disagreeing with you, Neo, on why many Jews are uneasy about Christians. I think many Christians and Jews today, from their differing perspectives, are beginning to realize that we’re all in this together. “First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people.” Christians MUST defend Jews in this fight, first, because it’s right and moral, and second, because we’re next.
“Are you aware that Islam considers itself a “fulfillment” of Christianity?”
So do the Mormons but neither can back that claim up from our common Scriptures.
“And Jews do NOT believe that “Israel was intended to draw all nations to Jerusalem…to the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob who lead ultimately to Jesus.” They do not believe that Christianity is the reality and they are the mere prelude, the “shadow that came before.” ”
Of course not…but that was precisely the witness of the Jews who were the first followers of Jesus and who turned to the Hebrew Scriptures to support their claims AND their joy. And who took that message and that joy to the world. Non-Jewish Christians fail in our mandate when we operate from pride or bigotry. But when we acknowledge our being undeservedly welcomed into (“grafted” as Paul says) “the true vine” we become part of what began as a promise in the Garden but was carried out through Abraham & his descendants.
And the words “mere prelude” are yours. Not mine & not those of the early church, Jews who found in the Law and the Prophets and the promises something much bigger than “mere.”
Now…Jew or Non-Jew finds hope & fulfilment in some other faith pursuit or non-faith pursuit…good on ya’…but I’m not going to stop pointing to the One who offers living water & promises a quenching like no other…and who really is, according to the Hebrew Scriptures, (“proclaimed in every city & read in the Synagogues every Sabbath”) what Abraham & Sarah, Isaac & Rebecca & Moses & the others “glimpsed & welcomed from a distance.”
What’s your overarching tag? “A mind is a difficult thing to change.”
Nobody ever said mission, what you call “proselytizing” (a word I don’t like at all by the way) was easy…nor should it be perhaps. A lot is at stake.
I’m happy to leave it there.
So they embrace the left. Who dont want to make them uncomfortable. But will happily exterminate them by siding with Hama’s
As far as the conversion. I guess there is less intellectual baggage when you have no choice. But it seems an odd way to go about it
I think Jews worrying that modern American Evangelical Christians might want to forcibly convert them is about like being African and worrying that people in South Carolina may want to enslave you. (An African today is many times more likely to be enslaved in Africa, of course.) It is not a rational fear.
The pogroms, forced conversions, and Jew-baiting of one kind or another were certainly once features of Christianity as practiced in Europe, but if you could find any example of that happening in North America outside the Spanish-settled areas, I’d be very surprised. There’s no connection between that history and American Evangelicals.
As for proselytizing, people are trying to proselytize all kinds of things: climate change, trans issues, you name it. No HR department is going to require you to attend Bible study, nor will they give you a bad performance evaluation if you don’t go.
Niketas Choniates:
I don’t think anyone is worrying about Christians in the US trying to FORCIBLY convert them. Nothing I said indicated they were, so I don’t know where you got that idea. I said, however, that there is a long long history of that in many other places between Christians and Jews. And many Christians voice the idea today that Jews will not be going to heaven unless they convert, which is not the sort of thing that’s likely to endear such Christians to Jews, even if well-meaning.
John Guilfoyle:
I’m obviously talking about how present-day Jews look at it, not how the Jews who became Christians looked at it.
@neo:…there is a long long history of that in many other places between Christians and Jews.
If America were or had ever been such a place pogroms or other persecution would not be such an irrational fear. I’m still working on the analogy: like not wanting to visit Canada in case King Charles III decides to tax my tea and quarter soldiers on me? I don’t know.
And many Christians voice the idea today that Jews will not be going to heaven unless they convert, which is not the sort of thing that’s likely to endear such Christians to Jews, even if well-meaning.
There can be many Christians found saying anything. Where I live, Christian churches have rainbow flags and signs saying “Black Lives Matter”, anyone thinking Christians in general are aligned with (say) Southern Baptists is pretty ignorant.
Committedly secular people (such as those who dominate the area where I live), not just Jews, seem to resent Christians thinking anyone needs to live a certain way in order to go to heaven and say “You think I’m going to hell” as though they have been offered a deadly insult.
It’s true that “You’re going to hell” can be offered in the spirit of an insult, but it can also be offered in the same spirit as “you will fall off that cliff if you go too close to the edge”, but committedly secular people in my experience don’t recognize that distinction. (It’s not as though they are not judgmental, though they often think they are not…)
I’ve spent most of my life conspicuously in a religious minority every place I went, and I guess I don’t understand resenting anyone who thinks you might need to convert to what the majority thinks. Perhaps that’s just my handicap. On no occasion did I convert to the majority faith whatever it was, needless to say, and the attitudes about your failing to do so which you encounter quickly sort your acquaintances into those worth your time and those not.
As for silly questions about my faith, it was worthwhile being patient if asked in a sincere desire for knowledge and not for the sake of mockery. And people from Hawaii get asked if they live in grass huts, or complimented on their skillful English, so it’s not just religion of course.
Because of our small numbers Jews have been and always will be particularly vulnerable. I don’t believe John is trying to equate persecution of Christians to the historical persecution of Jews including the Holocaust but only that the disparagement and persecution of Christians is real. And as Kate points out can indeed be murderous. This should be a point of unity between Jews and Christians, not division.
Being Jewish I understand the historical anxiety about persecution by Christians and more generally from the right (not all of which is Christian eg Nazis). I may have been disabused of this earlier than most Jews ironically because I lived in San Francisco for a long time where I became well aware of leftist anti-Zionism and antisemitism. It didn’t immediately convert me to the right because at the time it felt like an outlier knowing that SF was way to the left of even most Democrats then. But I am sure it paved the way for my later political conversion.
Neo, there’s a troubling undercurrent to your comments. But “you’re a formidable riddler and I’ll not match words with ye.”
Make of that what you will.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Or the comfy chair.
IrishOtter:
I don’t know what you are implying. What is this undercurrent?
I am trying to explain the reasons for a certain point of view.
I don’t know a lot about modern Jews, but as most here know, I am a strong supporter of Israel. Most of my research on Israel has been AND is done at the Jewish Virtual Library.
Judaism: The “Chosen People”
IMHO, it all started with – ‘We are God’s Chosen People.’ To the ancient Arab people, and/or who ever else was around back then, that must’ve sounded something like the Germans proclaiming they are the ‘Master Race’ prior WW2. Claiming to be ‘God’s Chosen People’ might not be proselytizing (NOTE: have never been to a blog where I spend so much time looking up words), but I doubt many people want to be hearing either.
Enter: Abraham
Absolutely no non-biblical evidence that Abraham ever existed, but many noted ancient civilizations had been writing from around 4000 BC. Many of those same civilizations kept incredibly accurate records, but as far as I know none ever mentioned Abraham.
Abrahamic Religions. God supposedly gave each of those religions their very own religious scriptures. Have they ever been at peace with each other?
Fast forward to 2024. Jews and Israelis have a right to worry…Jeez!? But to worry about Christians and their proselytizing?!?!? Israel seems to have some good Arab/Muslim friends & allies. Iran is the main problem for Israel and the west, but America can’t come up with a strong Leader to bring Iran to its knees.
@FOAF:Being Jewish I understand the historical anxiety about persecution by Christians and more generally from the right (not all of which is Christian eg Nazis).
I’m asking in a sincere desire to understand, not to be combative or dismissive, so if you can be patient with me…
I have a phobia of spiders. All spiders, not just black widows and such. Only spiders, not insects, daddy longlegs, centipedes. In my childhood I learned to suppress my panic at the sight of one, and I educated myself on spiders generally and the tiny minority that present any real danger. I will never be entirely comfortable around them, but I do not try to persuade others that spiders are scary and dangerous and they should be uncomfortable around them. When I get together with others I know who are afraid of spiders we don’t talk about how scary and dangerous spiders are. I don’t refuse to go to places where spiders are found, or freak out when I see someone keeps a spider as pet. I am aware that I have an irrational fear and I don’t spend any time trying to explain or justify it to others or myself.
FOAF, you say you’ve overcome your anxiety about Christians and the Right (in the US I assume). Would you say, that an American Jew has any more rational ground to fear American Christians or the American Right any more than I have to fear spiders? Or that an American Jew should think that Nazis or antisemites represent a significant presence among American Christians and the American Right, analogously to thinking most spiders are like black widows or brown recluses?
If you do think so, I’d be interested to know what case you’d make. Right now I think that for American Jews who do think this, it’s rooted in obsolete or inapplicable stereotypes and isn’t rational. I’m open to being persuaded that this is not the case.
As I said earlier, I’ve been a religious minority, sometimes in places where it’s not 100% okay to be one, but I’ve never been Jewish.
Niketas Choniates:
You write:
If you don’t know, perhaps this will help – not with an analogy, but with a further explanation to try to convince you that it is not irrational.
Jews have been persecuted around the world in country after country after country, sometimes murderously and sometimes less so. Sometimes the lesser varieties of anti-Semitism turn almost overnight into the murderous variety. Germany is the prime example, but other countries in Europe participated in sending Jews to be slaughtered during WWII when previously their anti-Semitism was of a milder variety. What happened in Germany was not really that long ago, and until Hitler came to power Germany was one of the best countries in the world for Jews. Anti-Semitism existed but it was relatively mild and the Jews of Germany were highly assimilated and successful in many professions, unlike the poorer and more isolated Jews of Eastern Europe. And yet it was in Germany where the most vicious and violent anti-Semitism came to fruition. Two-thirds of German Jews managed to escape to other countries, but many of them had gone to other countries in Europe that were overrun by Germany – often very suddenly – during the war and they were trapped and hunted down in those countries, often with the cooperation of the population of those countries.
The US has been much better. The US is not Europe. Anti-Semitism in the US has been of the milder variety, but it nevertheless has been present and it is still present. Even when I was young, there were plenty of places where Jews were not welcome, and although that has gotten much better there is still visible Jew-hatred on both left and right, but growing more and more vicious on the left.
One can resent and be afraid of Jew-hatred even if it doesn’t transform into pogroms and violence. However, could the anti-Semitism on the right and/or the left in the US grow into the violent type? Hopefully not, but there is definitely precedent for such transformation in the advanced countries of Europe, and therefore any such fear would not be irrational.
@neo: I think we crossed posts. Anything I might have wanted to say in response to your last is in my reply to FOAF, and the analogy to my phobia with spiders.
In a spirit of trying to understand, tl dr I’m afraid of spiders and I know it’s irrational. There are deadly spiders in the world, and a few medically significant in the US, but it’s not rational for me to fear spiders generally or persuade others that they should fear spiders generally or think that black widows or that deadly one in Australia are broadly representative of spiders. I think I had a duty to educate myself out of ignorance and fear of spiders and I don’t try to justify or explain the fear or spread it.
And I’m having a tough time seeing how American Jews are in a different position relative to the American Right or American Christians. Some of these American Jews would have no patience or understanding for someone who talked about a racial, ethnic, or sexual minority the way they talk of Christians and conservatives. Certainly the secularizing people who form the majority where I live would not, either.
And my faith was persecuted in large parts of Europe too, also for centuries, and I don’t fear their descendants or coreligionists in the US, as annoying as some of them may have been that I wasn’t willing to join them. I’m not trying to draw an equivalence in experience, just saying that there’s more than one faith of which that can be said that they were persecuted in other countries by people sharing the faiths found in American today.
“I’m obviously talking about how present-day Jews look at it, not how the Jews who became Christians looked at it.”
And yet, whether present-day Jews (secular, cultural, atheist, devout) like it or not, they are rooted in the same sacred story and the same sacred texts from which Jesus and the first followers of Jesus emerged and from which Non-Jew followers of Jesus still find our faith ancestors and our lineage of hope in the promises of God.
John Guilfoyle:
Yes, I think it’s safe to say that the vast majority of Jews and Christians are aware that they share roots. But then there was a bifurcation. So I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Jews and Christians both acknowledge that they have common roots.
The comfy chair is more pleasant.
But it pays to be aware of your surroundings, historically speaking.
Who would have thought the Ivies and the elites would be so easily captured by the oldest hatred?
Fascinating discussion. One of the reasons why religion is a verboten subject in Navy wardrooms (Officers mess) is that it can become quite heated. I find this discussion to be mostly centered on good manners and good intentions.
The problem with religious faith is that faith = “strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.” What appears to be true to one person is not always clear to another.
Christians have the New Testament, and the Jews have the Old Testament as guides to their beliefs. And these books present many lessons about how to live a righteous life and how to have a relationship with the Creator. Yet, no one can prove these things. They must be taken on faith.
And when two people have differing perspectives on faith is where the arguments begin. What seems as true as the sun in the sky to one person can seem to be a cloud over the sun to another.
I love the title of the song, “What’s It All About, Alfie,” because it asks the age-old question that everyone seeks an answer to. We want to know what the plan is. Or, if there is a plan. And we come to our conclusions based on experience, reading, study, and faith.
It’s one thing to say, I want to share my views of Christianity with you. I think it’s good news, and maybe you will think so too. It’s another thing to say, my Christianity is the only path to Heaven, and you better get on it.
We’re all picking our paths through life, seeing through a glass darkly. Can we all treat one another as we would like to be treated? A Jewish carpenter said that was a good rule of thumb. Experience has shown it to be true, but difficult to follow.
God bless us one and all.
Niketas Choniates:
I’m going to assume you read my comment at 11:26 PM. I would have thought you would have found something in it that spoke to your analogy about spiders and irrational fears and convinced you that the fear Jews in the US have about anti-Semitism is more rational than you originally believed.
Two-thirds of the Jews of Europe – for the most part Westernized, post-Enlightenment, industrialized, highly-developed Europe – were murdered during the 1940s. Merely for being Jews. At the same time, the US did not offer them refuge, except for a very small number. At the time of the WWII Holocaust, most Jews on earth lived in Europe, which was home to 60% of the Jews in the world. The murder of 2/3 of them means that, during those few years, 40% of the Jews on earth were murdered. And that’s in a population that was very small – about 15 million – to begin with.
Had you gone to Germany in 1925, nothing would have told you such a thing was even possible, and yet it happened, and not just in Germany. And although I believe that the US is the last country on earth where such a thing would EVER happen, I would have thought almost the same of Germany back then. Germany had some anti-Semitism, but so does the US, and in Germany Jews were very much part of many professions such as medicine, law, and academia, and intermarriage was fairly common.
I don’t see any analogy to spider bites.
In addition, I don’t think that most Jews in the US are wary of Christians, but for the ones who are, probably very few are afraid that anti-Semitism here would ever turn into a Holocaust-type situation. The problem is more that Jews have reason to be generally wary and to never really feel safe, and such a fear is not irrational.
I’m going to think about this some more.
While wondering whether it’s rational for American Jews to be worried about American Christians due to their history in other places, I’m also wondering about something else.
I can’t claim a vast personal knowledge of antisemites, and never done a survey. But in my experience they fall into two kinds: foreign-born and American-born.
The foreign-born ones come from countries where antisemitism is common and ongoing, so it doesn’t really need explaining. The American-born ones, though, are not antisemites because of the history of their family or religion in the old country or anything. They’re generally people with bees in their bonnets, or college radicals, or something like that, and their antisemitism is personal to them and not broadly shared among their friends and relatives and coworkers or what not.
@neo:I would have thought you would have found something in it that spoke to your analogy about spiders and irrational fears and convinced you that the fear Jews in the US have about anti-Semitism is more rational than you originally believed.
I did read your reply, but I did already know the history. Which is why I’m still not closer, sorry, there’s not new facts there for me.
If you don’t like the spider analogy that’s fine. I’m reluctant to draw a closer analogy to real populations that experienced persecution and genocide elsewhere historically, but not in the US, because such analogies are often misunderstood as invidious.
There is of course a population within the US–arguably more than one, but I’m thinking of only one–that experienced persecution and genocide over hundreds of years, in the US, as part of US history, official government policy in fact, as well as in foreign countries where some of these things continue today. Not only that, they do suffer from the prejudices and ignorance of others as well as severe socioeconomic disadvantages. I don’t think it would be a rational fear for them, either, to expect that violence against them could start up in the US (again) at any time, based on that history.
“Jews and Christians are aware that they share roots.”
No. It is more than that. And you know it. Jews & Christians share a sacred story and sacred texts.
And I assume by “bifurcation” you mean “Jesus.”
Absolutely…and a whole stack of 1st century Jews (and plenty since) saw that “bifurcation” as something grander: the absolute universal fulfilment of every hope & promise they’d received since Abraham…the heart of their sacred story and sacred texts. Every sermon those 1st century Jews preached drew on the sacred story & sacred texts that connected them to the dawn of Creation & linked them to God’s ultimate fulfilment in ages to come. Paul would say that the “wall of hostility” separating Jew & Gentile is demolished…that we have no reason to be a threat to one another any longer. (Have we always lived that out to full effect? Sadly…no)
Of course people of every stripe of faith reject that…but that does not diminish its grandeur nor its veracity nor its invitation and accessibility to all.
My point…to simply allay this fear: “But the idea that some Jews might still see the goal of conversion as a potential threat is neither crazy nor completely unjustified, and it is up to Christians to show otherwise.”
“Threat”? If you or anyone else (Jew or otherwise) finds the same hope as the original followers of Jesus…discovers the same life-transforming joy as Paul (a good Benjaminite Pharisee no less) the same strength, peace, contentment…as generations since…Good Lord how is that a threat?!?
This isn’t about adding scalps to one’s belt or even butt’s to one’s pews…but what I quoted from that wild-eyed Pharisee earlier…Acts 26:29 “Short time or long—I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am…” To find a wholeness available nowhere else & a fulfilment that can’t be ripped from your heart. If that scares you…then forgive me…but I can’t do other than offer.
What a different United States we live in. My wife was watching an old Tonight Show episode where Johnny was interviewing Billy Graham. Billy talked about a crusade he had just completed in Korea– where the message of salvation through faith in Jesus was resonating.
Billy shared the message of salvation, and the prospect of punishment for those who reject Jesus.
The interview was probably close to 1/2 hour.
Proselytizing has been going on for a long time.
Here is what Paul said in his letter to the church at Rome:
Paul’s ministry was to the Gentiles– but his heart ached for his fellow Jews.
“But in my experience they fall into two kinds: foreign-born and American-born.
What they all have in common is that they hate Jews.
A quarter century before my birth there was a Democrat national convention which was dubbed “the Klanbake” because a large plurality of the delegates were members of the KKK. A huge hooded KKK gathering was held nearby, and a resolution to condemn it was defeated at the convention. The KKK targeted blacks, but also Catholics and Jews. In 1913 a Jewish man in Atlanta, Leo Frank, was dragged out of jail and lynched by a mob for a crime he probably didn’t commit. On a milder note, Jews were excluded from many universities, and from many social clubs.
What worries me is that the undercurrent of Jew-hating now bubbling up mostly on the left will become massively violent. There have already been some synagogue shootings by some sick people. At this point the hatred and violence are not coming from good Christian people like those who haunt this blog, and I am sure we won’t become like that, those of us here. But in Germany, in recent history, good people did acquiesce in atrocities. Jewish nervousness is not irrational, even in America.
Amen, sister Kate! Amen.
Kate.
Agree as to nervousness. But. A certain portion of that nervousness should be general. Always be looking over your shoulder. No matter who you are.
And over your neighbor’s shoulder.
To which it is legitimate to add fear of Jew-hate.
But what is the connection with what seem to be counter productive political views and voting patterns?
Richard Aubrey:
As huxley has often said, people aren’t entirely rational.
J.J.
Not to nitpick, but you make a common assumptive error. In John 13:34 Jesus says; ‘A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.’
This is NOT the same as ‘treat one another as we would like to be treated’*. Not even close. It is much more profound and demanding. We are commanded to reach beyond our human limitations and extend to each other the grace and mercy God has given us.
LOL. I often think that Jews have their greatest struggle with the 1st commandment and Christians with the 11th.
And Kate is right, despite our differences, we have to stick together, because there is a force in this world that wants to wipe out ALL the commandments. ‘First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people.’
*What if you hate yourself and think you deserve punishment?!
Molly Brown, thanks for the correction. I’ make no claim to be a Biblical scholar, and now recognize how much harder it is.