The hostages present a Solomonic dilemma: why say “Bring them home”?
The demonstrators in Israel for the hostages plead, “Bring them home!” But why address Israel? After all, Israel isn’t holding the hostages. And it’s been made clear for a long time that Hamas is finished negotiating, except perhaps to ask for a total Israeli surrender in exchange for the hostage release. So how can Israel “bring them home”? Aren’t the costs of such concessions unconscionable?
Israel is being addressed in these pleas, rather than Hamas, because Israel is humane and Hamas is not. Remember William Lloyd Garrison’s famous statement, “With reasonable men I will reason, with humane men I will plead … “. What many – most?- people forget is the rest of the quote, “but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost.” Negotiations with Hamas are “wasted words.”
As far as a military way to bring them home goes – Israel probably doesn’t know where they all are, and even if and when Israel does know where they are (almost certainly not in one place but in many), a military approach would be likely to kill them or precipitate Hamas murdering them.
I think the phrase that makes more sense is “Let them go!” – addressed to Hamas and the Gazans. Of course, Hamas has no more intention of letting them go than Pharaoh had of letting the Jews who were slaves in Egypt go, as in the song “Let My People Go.” It took ten escalating plagues for that to happen, and it’s not surprising it took that much to get him to relent. Perhaps you believe that’s a historical fact, or perhaps you believe it’s a legend or a story, but whichever it is it tells something true about evil and power.
I suppose if the message is to be “Bring them home!,” the words should be addressed to the world: the UN, nations, supposed “humanitarian” organizations, and the international community as a whole. If the world was united in stating the obvious fact that the kidnappings are evil and Hamas must release the hostages or face attack or severe sanctions, globally – perhaps that would be enough pressure. But in reality that is very far from happening and Hamas knows it, and knows that the world is actually far more united against Israel.
Remember this past virtue-signaling? Now we hardly even have this sort of thing:
The following video is of another excellent and comprehensive discussion from The Jerusalem Center. It centers on the terrible choices the hostage situation presents, and how well Hamas has learned what Israel’s vulnerabilities around that are. I’ve cued it up to begin with a short talk on a different and yet important topic – the tax money Israel is supposed to transfer to Gaza and the West Bank as part of the Oslo Accords, and which the Palestinians use to reward terrorists for killing Israelis. After that brief discussion the speakers segue into the subject of the hostages (again, if it’s too slow for you, go to “Settings” and increase the speed). I had written a draft of the above post before I ever listened to this podcast, and I was surprised to hear the gentleman on the left of the screen (whose name and title I didn’t catch) say much the same thing about the phrase “bring them home” as I said. But there’s much much more in their talk that’s well worth hearing:
I think that Israel must not do any more large prisoner exchanges for hostages. Israel must hang tough against such negotiation and certainly against any long-term ceasefire. But I also think I know what the terrorists would do if Israel made that position clear – plus of course there would be the terrible and yet understandable spectacle of the grief-stricken and angry families of the hostages. The terrorists would then use Israel’s stance as a propaganda point to say that Israel is heartless. The terrorist propaganda would turn the terrorists’ own heartlessness and evil inside out and blame it on the Israelis, and much of the world would stupidly buy that, as they’ve bought so much else the terrorists are selling. In addition, I think the terrorists would start beaming videos of hostage after hostage pleading and pleading, and perhaps being mistreated or even tortured, as well as possibly killed either onscreen – or probably off, the better to claim that Israel’s airstrikes did the deed.
The bottom line is that, once hostages are taken by terrorists, there is no good result except their rescue. For release, the price is too high. And because of the number of the October 7 hostages and the way they’re being held and by whom, rescue is incredibly difficult.
NOTE: Last night when I watched that Jerusalem Center video, I thought of a film I saw in a large-screen movie theater when I was a teenager. Its name was The Sand Pebbles and it featured Steve McQueen, an actor on whom I had a huge crush; that’s why I went to see it. But the film itself filled me with horror – or rather, the only scene I remember after all these years filled me with horror. It featured the torture of an Asian man whom the sailor played by McQueen had befriended and whom the audience had grown to like. The man had been captured, and a vicious crowd was torturing him, with McQueen and the other sailors watching his torture from the deck of their ship. McQueen has a rifle, and he takes aim and shoots, putting his friend out of his misery. It is a searing, awful scene. But you understand that by doing that, McQueen ended the man’s suffering – because he was going to be killed slowly and painfully anyway, in full view of everyone. The McQueen character killed him, but stopped the sadistic spectacle of his suffering.
ADDENDUM:
Here is a video of a woman who was a hostage in Gaza. She is speaking to the World Economic Forum in Davos, describing her experiences and asking them to pressure Hamas for the release of the remaining hostages. I’ve not seen that approach before, and I think it’s a step in the right direction – not that the Davos crowd is going to do what she says, however:
That’s why I said you must consider them “dead” and make your plans accordingly.
It’s terrible thing to say but it’s a terrible thing in toto.
The cooley Po-han, played by Makoto Iwamatsu (“Mako”: 1933-2006). McQueen teaches Po-han about the ship’s engine–thereby unwittingly signing his death warrant at the hands of a jealous rival–and coaches him in his boxing match with “Ski” (Simon Oakland). McQueen takes Po-han out with a 1903 Springfield after he is caught by a mob on shore and tortured in view of the crew. Tough scene. Great movie.
McQueen, who had served in the Marines, realistically adjusts the Springfield’s ladder sight for elevation before taking his shot.
Another parallel with Gaza: the heavily armed American sailors under orders not to respond with force to provocations from Chinese civilians.
I had a different take on Michelle Obama and the ” Bring them home.” I was glad she brought it up because I figured it was the first time many young people ever heard about black on black violence in Africa.
Of course today, black Muslims are sweeping black Christians out of black villages in Africa and how many young lefties even know about it? Islam continues to tighten it’s grip on Africa by force. The lines on the map where the demographic is mostly Muslim seems to be expanding.
the incoming president buhari paid the ransom, and it worked out as well as you would think, (he was david axelrods other client) buhari was a coup plotter in 1983,
previously one of the top students at ft leavenworth, and had been a troublemaker since then,
of course a lesser known accessory to this matter was mark rich’s gang who looted nigeria in the 90s, that included kurzin who might as well be a character from highlanderbut most significantly chadoury a lebanese businessman with alleged ties to hezbollah,of course judge chutkin went to bat for him what a gal, world magazine had the details,
One should always ask lefties , ” Where are the Jews in Saudi Arabia? “
I’ve long assumed on the merest surmise that the “Bring them home” rhetoric is a concoction of Israeli leftists interested in fomenting political division within the Israeli polity. Could be I’m wrong, but I’ve yet to see contradictory evidence.
Jon baker, yes, violence against black Christians in Africa is ongoing and horrifying. However, there are in fact expanding Christian conversions in Africa. The violence may be in part in reaction to increasing conversions.
Hostage-taking has been a lucrative business for Hamas for decades. If it continues to be rewarded, it will keep happening. The Israeli left needs to face this fact. My heart breaks for the remaining hostages and their families. I do not believe they will return alive.
Jon baker:
It’s just that the campaign didn’t do anything to actually free the girls, and it seemed like a bunch of celebrities telling us how caring they are, and they are silent about the Israeli hostages. One of the released Israeli hostages was a female teenager or younger child (I forget which) who had really looked up to Michelle Obama and whose mother had appealed though several channels to Michelle to say something about the Israeli hostages and the response was no response. Crickets.
Hubert:
Yes, that’s the scene. It made a deep impression on me. The helpless watching of the crew, and the McQueen character doing what he did.
“It centers on the terrible choices the hostage situation presents, and how well Hamas has learned what Israel’s vulnerabilities around that are.”
When will Israel act upon Hamas’ vulnerabilities?
Since even before Israel’s independence in 1948, Israeli’s have been both fighting jihadists and appealing to the Arab world’s ‘better’ nature. It has all been for naught.
In fact, those tactics have resulted in much of the world turning on Israel. In addition, given the indoctrination of the young in the West, there’s every reason to think the hostility will deepen and grow even more.
So, when will Israel stop doing the same thing over and over again… while expecting to finally get different results?
Hamas’, Hezbollah’s, the Iranian Mullah’s, the ‘radical’ Sunni Imams and all jihadist’s ‘vulnerabilities’ reside in their religious beliefs. Eliminate the recruitment incentive.
You deter a mortal enemy by attaching to their attacks, consequences that for them are too terrible to risk.
It seems to me that Israel, since Oct. 7, has stopped doing the same thing over and over. The Israeli citizenry now supports finishing the job with Hamas.
Geoffrey Britain:
Israel has certainly not waged “total war” at this point, so in that you are correct (if that’s what you think they should do).
However, Israel is not just doing the same thing again and again this time. They are not appealing to the Arab world’s “better nature” at all this time.
What’s more, you write, “those tactics have resulted in much of the world turning on Israel.” By “those tactics” you mean “fighting jihadis and appealing to the Arab world’s better nature.” I disagree with your contention. It is more correct to say that those tactics have failed to prevent much of the world turning on Israel. I have written several posts recently, and quite a few in the past, describing why the world has turned on Israel. It is – to summarize briefly – a result of neo-leftist “oppression” theory and the takeover of the academy, Russian propaganda of more than 50 years duration, Palestinian and Arab propaganda of similar duration, and anti-Semitism.
Richard McKenna was the author of the novel The Sand Pebbles. It is truly a masterpiece, and the winner of the 1963 Harper Prize for fiction. The novel was based on his own experiences as a “China Sailor” on the Yangtze River patrol in the interwar period.He died tragically young at age 51, just as he was hitting his stride as a writer. The Sailor’s Homer: The Life and Times of Richard McKenna, Author of The Sand Pebbles, written by Dennis Noble, makes for a terrific companion piece to McKenna’s novel. I recommend it highly. He lived an adventurous life as exciting as Jake Holman’s. To a degree, he was Jake Holman.
A promising career as a writer cut short, alas, by an early death. RIP, sailor. You were a mensch, and a great writer too.
P.S. The movie is quite faithful to the book. An excellent adaptation, maybe one of the best ever book-to-movie adaptations.
Borrell is a nasty piece of work (I would use the spanish cognate, but this is a family blog,)
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hjv6lf00tp
Neo, I think you meant to write “Solomonic” in your headline.
============================================
I believe the girls Michelle referenced were captured by the Islamic terrorist group Boku Haram, and yes, they are all black.
Jordan Rivers:
Thanks; fixed.
Viral Video – ‘Is That Seriously What You Said?!’: Ted Cruz Explodes On Democratic Senator
https://commoncts.blogspot.com/2024/01/viral-video-is-that-seriously-what-you.html
I told my Wife that if I am ever taken hostage anywhere that she should not negotiate and consider me gone.
We travel a lot to Europe and have gone to SE Asia (actually leaving in March on a cruise HK, SK and Jap.) I also travel with an Historical Tour group to Europe. Anything can happen, anywhere.
@Geoffrey Britain: I’m not sure what you mean by Israel eliminating the recruitment incentive for Hamas and other jihadis. It’s not as though Israel has the capacity to disprove their religious beliefs.
This is a very difficult issue and shows why Hamas took hostages. Whatever happens apart from rescue – and that is the one outcome Hamas will avoid happening – Israel will be weakened.
If hostages are exchanged for prisoners it looks like a Hamas victory. If hostages die, or worse are found to have been deliberately killed to end their suffering, then there will be a real backlash in Israel.
If Israel carries on with the fighting aimed at rescues then it increases the distance from other countries as the deaths mount up. Another victory for Hamas as their main aim in all this was surely to stop the improvement in relations with Arab countries brought about by the Abraham Accords.
Very difficult to see a path through this and I doubt that in a year or even five or ten years things will be any better.
Bringing the Iranian regime to an end would definitely help but that looks increasingly impossible. The Putin – Tehran – Hamas link appears like some dangerous chess move…… and it’s the pawns being sacrificed all over the region.
@ DCL – you seem to have covered all the bases.
If there is NO path to a reasonable victory for Israel, then why not shoot off all their nukes at Tehran et al. and be done with it.
“The Sand Pebbles,” yes, one of the two greatest movies ever made, the other being “Lawrence of Arabia.” What they have in common, among other things, is their cautionary message to Western powers entangling themselves in the affairs of non-Western countries. Thus, they have much to say to contemporary America. And about that “Bring back…” meme, it’s akin to the use of the passive voice. As if those hostages just somehow wandered away from home and need a lift to return. Like ordering them a cab or Uber is all that is needed. It’s the favorite dodge used when the media is attempting to describe a bad situation without blaming the obvious suspects. That’s why we have “gun violence,” when it is really an issue of human violence; the perpetrators are most often among those who shall not be named. It’s the tone and posture adopted by politicians who wish to avoid being accused of noticing.
This is a very difficult issue and shows why Hamas took hostages. Whatever happens apart from rescue – and that is the one outcome Hamas will avoid happening – Israel will be weakened.
==
If it helps you feel better, go with that.
@ Art Deco – I see your little insinuation. If that makes you feel happy go with it and don’t bother looking the reality of the situation. This is a very difficult time for Israel and it is near impossible to see a good outcome. This is something that should worry us all as Israel is a great country who could be a force for good in a troubled region.
The saying should be, “Let my people go.”
What they have in common, among other things, is their cautionary message to Western powers entangling themselves in the affairs of non-Western countries. Thus, they have much to say to contemporary America.
I don’t think The Sand Pebbles was about that at all, except en passant, any more than The Odyssey was about Mycenaean Greeks entangling themselves in the affairs of Anatolian polities.
Nonsense. The issue may be in doubt, to be sure, but it is by no means a certainty that the peril the nation of Israel finds itself in will result in its weakening rather than the opposite, its strenghtening in a unity of purpose with the resolve to end in victory. Facing the truth that America is not her ally, Israel may (in freeing herself from delusion and taking independence of action) exit this war in much better condition than she entered it. And freedom, I dare say, is something about which the Israelis know well.
DCL accepts the assumption that Hamashites will not be utterly destroyed and that Gazamites and Westbankonians won’t learn a thing from their latest barbarity. Crocodile tears are shed from acrost the
pond.
But, climate change!
om, it will take quite a re-education project for Gazans and West Bank Arabs to learn the lessons we’d like them to learn, which is that they won’t get a state or maybe even a municipality until they focus on ordinary government matters and not on killing Jews.
Neo: I first saw “The Sand Pebbles” as a kid on TV, I think in black and white. It made an impression on me too, even in that diminished form. Having shown the full version as part of our social circle’s Friday night movies, I realize that it’s actually a very sad movie. Po-han’s fate, Frenchy’s (Richard Attenborough) fate, the doomed romance between Jake Holman (McQueen) and Shirley Eckert (Candice Bergen), the sinister final scene–an air of tragedy hangs over the movie. And yet it’s an audience favorite.
Otter: there’s a fan website devoted to the movie:
https://www.thesandpebbles.com/
Includes on-set photos from a private collection and contemporary reviews from Time and other mainstream American publications of the day. Not surprisingly, many critics discerned an attempt by the director and screenwriter to draw parallels between America’s experience in China in the 1920s and Vietnam in the 1960s.
I haven’t read the novel but your comments have inspired me to pick up a copy from my favorite used book site; thanks too for the tip about Noble’s biography of McKenna. Another good naval historical novel from the same period is James Bassett’s “Harm’s Way”, which was the basis for another epic mid-1960s movie. Bassett’s later novel “Commander Prince, USN” is also very good. In fact, I prefer it to HW. It’s set in the Philippines and the Netherlands East Indies and revolves around the destruction of the U.S. Asiatic Fleet at the beginning of the war.
Steve: good points about the movie and the euphemistic language being used about the hostages.
On the topic of the Israeli hostages, America’s experience in Asia, and WWII: I’ve been looking into the fates of two alumni–a father and son–for my university’s war memorial. Both were U.S. Army officers stationed in the Philippines–on the island of Panay–at the beginning of the war. Both were taken prisoner by the Japanese after the fall of the Philippines in 1942. They were put on one of the Japanese POW transport ships–the infamous “hell ships”–and are presumed to have been killed when the ship–the Oryoku Maru–was sunk by U.S. aircraft off Olongapo Naval Base in December 1944. The descriptions of the conditions in the prisoners’ hold on that ship are horrific. It is harrowing to imagine their last moments.
Here’s the point. I don’t know offhand (perhaps Otter does) whether U.S. military planners knew that there were Allied POWs aboard those transports. Given the effectiveness of the U.S. Navy’s code-breaking operations, I suspect they did. Nevertheless, the policy was to sink all Japanese shipping. Similarly, the strategic bombing campaign against Japan was carried out with ruthless disregard as to whether American prisoners at POW camps in the targeted cities might be killed. I’m afraid that the Israelis may have to summon a similar degree of ruthlessness if they are to succeed in eliminating Hamas as a threat.
@Om if there is one lesson that the US plus allies, the Soviet Union/ Russia and Israel have learned and relearned it is that asymmetric wars are not easy to win. It is one thing to type in the ether about wiping groups of people out……. But meanwhile…….. back in the real world.
sdferr wins the thread with:
I’ve long assumed on the merest surmise that the “Bring them home” rhetoric is a concoction of Israeli leftists interested in fomenting political division within the Israeli polity. Could be I’m wrong, but I’ve yet to see contradictory evidence.
——————————-
Bingo.
The Lefties immediately co-opted the hostage families, which was easy in this case since the communities that were attacked and the people attending the rave skewed Left anyway. It does not take much prompting to get some of these people to spew nonsense about Bibi not caring – they spew about Bibi as a matter of course.
And yes – this is definitely being blown up in importance by the Left-leaning press to weaken Israeli morale.
It’s also a way for left-leaning Israelis to join in the current patriotic atmosphere without compromising their pacifist universalist bona fides. For example, the Israel Philharmonic did a Youtube video featuring the “bring him home” song from Les Miz.
Fortunately patriotic lobbies have sprung up spontaneously here in Israel, although you probably won’t hear about them overseas. This weekend’s papers have full-page ads from competing organizations of hostage families, families of fallen soldiers, reservists, families of soldiers and reservists, and others. They all call for continued war until complete victory – elimination of Hamas and Israeli control of our border regions.
In parallel, the umbrella organization for the tens of thousands of displaced Galilee/Golan residents released strong statements that they refuse to leave the hotels and hostels where the government is hosting them – until there is a decisive defeat of Hizbullah and permanent army presence on the border.
Well lawrence was a well meaning sort but he suspected the allies would betray the bedouin now the hashemites had privileges under the ottomans as well as the howeitat after 400 years they might have worn out their welcome
DCL, here is a clue, pay attention, Hamas is the government of Gaza, they need to be eradicated (eliminated, killed). The Gazamites and Westbankonians may learn a lesson from that. They have agency.
In the real world actions have consequences, burning money for global warming for example. Just Stop Oil and getting flattened on the freeway.
Keep your crocodile tears in Great Britain.
Just to add to Ben David’s recent post, it is a tried-and-true Leftist TACTIC to hijack what would appear to be a humanistic effort and use it for uber-political, uber-partisan, and ultimately ultra-divisive purposes…while making it appear as though the people perpetrating this crap have everyone’s TRUE INTERESTS at heart.
(Cf. CEASE-FIRE NOW!!)
The evil aspects of the “Bring Them Home” campaign are:
1. It appeals to people’s ardent desires to rescue those in danger.
2. It implies that it is Israel’s fault that the hostages aren’t yet home.
2a. I.e., it implies that the government has not been doing enough to bring about the hostages’ release; or worse, it implies that Bibi has either low-prioritized freeing the hostages OR that he doesn’t care about them at all.
3. It is a continuation of the earlier efforts to wage a coup against the elected government.
3a. It is a way of strengthening “Biden”‘s diabolical intentions (see also, #3).
4. It is being conducted/perpetrated during a vicious war—the cause of which is the goal of Israel’s destruction—and which could well escalate beyond what we are currently witnessing.
With regard to point #3a, this is part of the ongoing betrayal of Israel…in the name of humanity, of caring, of concern, of welfare, of practicality(!)…. OF MORALITY.
IOW, what the Left does BEST.
Its a gordian knot you note how they never showed where the hostages were released from
@ Om probably best we revisit this in a couple of years and see the consequences. Hopefully your cheery optimism will make it all work out and Israel will bring an end to Palestinian violence with this action.
If it helps I am also pessimistic about our ability to deal with, and in your case even accept, the climate crisis.
Every time israel stopped the war 2003 2006 2009 2012 2014 2021 hamas has rearmed seeing it as a hudna
Hubert:
The U.S. military did NOT know that the hell ships carried American POWS. There was no meaningful or useful intel in that regard. Also note in this regard that the breaking of Japanese codes (particularly IJN cyphers) was, in terms of results, a very mixed bag. When success was achieved the results could be and were spectacular: e.g., the Battle of Midway and the Yammamoto shoot-down. But these were exceptions that proved the rule, namely that reading enemy cyphers can be a very mixed bag, providing little or no discernible, information. Plus, breaking and reading enemy cyphers is merely a first step in the process; the next and arguably most important step is interpreting what you have. Which is a very problematic undertaking. Anyway, to repeat, we did not know that the Hell Ships carris American POWs. Had we known, we most definitely would not have attacked them.
Incidentally, I knew and interviewed many survivors of the Hell Ships, pursuant to a years-long project to write an oral history of the Provisional Tank Group on Bataan.
Finally, thank you for the head’s-up re “Commander Prince.” The destruction of the Asiatic Fleet, the Battle of the Java Sea, the fall of the Malay barrier — I am especially interested in these interconnected events, and have read a great deal about them over the years. I look forward to reading it.
And, re The Sand Pebbles, both the book and the movie: the story is indeed a multifaceted tragedy, almost unbearably sad on several levels, an epic in the classical sense, reminding me of the Odyssey, with which it shares certain thematic similarities.
McQueen, Richard Crenna, and Mako were magnificent in their roles; so much so, that one might well think that McKenna wrote his novel with those actors in mind. McQueen and Mako were both nominated for Academy Awards, and deserved to win them; Crenna was not nominated but should have been, and should have won. I have long thought that Captain Collins, commander of the San Pablo (portrayed by Crenna) was a tragic figure, in his own way as tragic as Jake Holman.
If that makes you feel happy go with it and don’t bother looking the reality of the situation.
==
Israel will not be ‘weakend’ by the destruction of Hamas as a military force.
Related:
The MESSAGE (from those who’ve been backing Iran and its friends to the hilt—but let’s pretend we didn’t know that):
“If Full War With Hezbollah Opens, Israel Will Lose: Special Analysis”—
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/if-full-war-hezbollah-opens-israel-will-lose-special-analysis
(Actually, they’re afraid that Israel might win… HOLD ON!!! WHAT DOES “WIN” ACTUALLY MEAN???)
Before haj amin replaced his brother there was some level of comity between settlers and bedouins but for more than a century since there has been strife nebi musa hebron 36 intifada
There is also the problem you could not let the japanese know we had broken their codes identify their convoys by other means same with enigma in the atlantic theatre as pointed in cryptonimocon the shootdown of yamamoto might have given the game away
Otter: thanks for the info. My usual source for USN code-breaking operations in the Pacific is Jasper Holmes’ “Double-Edged Secrets” (Naval Institute Press, 1979). Holmes was a former USN officer and professor of engineering at the University of Hawaii who was called back to service shortly before Pearl Harbor and assigned to Capt. Joseph Rochefort’s code-breaking unit. I couldn’t find anything about the prisoner transports in Holmes’ book.
However–and to my surprise, given the age of the source–I did find confirmation that the U.S. Navy and the Royal Navy knew about the prisoner transports in the Philippines by September 1944 in Chapter XVII (“Submarine Patrols, September -November 1944”) of Volume XII (“Leyte”) in S. E. Morison’s history. Page 400 in the original Little Brown edition: “The presence of prisoners was unknown to Commander Oakley’s submarines until 15 September when Pompano, passing through the waters where she had made her attack, discovered a crude raft loaded with men. Her C.O. […] sized up the situation at once and called on Sealion for help, Growler having already left the area; and as soon as Admiral Lockwood [Adm. Charles Lockwood, commander of Submarine Force Pacific Fleet at Pearl] got the word he ordered Captain Swinburne’s pack […] to assist.” The POWs in this case were British and Australian. Morison goes on to describe other POWs escaping from torpedoed Japanese transports and being cared for by natives until they were picked up by Allied submarines.
It would appear that intelligence about Allied POWs on Japanese transports in Philippine waters was available by the early fall of 1944. However, the source was submarines, not code-breaking. And, as you point out, there’s a difference between intelligence and actionable intelligence.
My late father served with the 20th Air Force on Tinian, so I know something about the strategic bombing campaign against Japan and the relentless manner in which it was waged.
It’s fascinating that you interviewed survivors of the hell ships. Was the oral history ever published?
Agree entirely with your assessment of “The Sand Pebbles”. Richard Crenna especially was an underrated actor. One of my favorite performances by him is in “Thief”, a made-for-TV movie from the early 1970s with Angie Dickinson, Cameron Mitchell, and Hurd Hatfield:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067849/?ref_=sr_t_1
Couldn’t find it on DVD. Maybe it’s available now or on a streaming service.
Also, the WWII hostages were military men. The Israeli hostages were originally predominantly civilians, including many women and children. The remaining hostages are mostly but not entirely male, and there is a higher proportion of military men (and women), but there are still also a large number of civilians and quite a few are elderly.
Different population, designed by Hamas to pull even more sadistically on the heartstrings.
There is no climate crisis.
DCL bites into lie, hook line and sinker; uses the current approved verbiage “climate crisis.”
As a goelogist, I know a little bit about climate and time, periods of glaciation, sea level elevation changes. If you choose to soil your undergarments with the “climate crisis,” that is on you.
Cease-fire NOW!
Sure thing….
“Watch: Forces discover long-range rocket launcher;
“The 99th Division forces dismantled a weapons production sites in the Zeitoun neighborhood.”—
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/383874
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Theres also the fact the ‘solution’ to this so called problem exempts china and india which are 2.5 billion people
Hubert:
As you point out, U.S. Navy submarines did not know in advance of their attacks on Japanese “Hell Ship” transports that those vessels were carrying Allied POWs. By the time this fact became known it was too late to do anything except to undertake to rescue the few men who had survived the sinkings. It was an avoidable tragedy, attributable to the overall mendacity of the Japanese in their conduct of the war — they might have draped the transports in Red Cross flags and notified the Americans, via neutral nations (Switzerland, Portugal, etc.), that the ships were carrying POWs; had they done so the Americans would not have attacked them. But that was not the Japanese way.
I have yet to write the book about the men of the tank battalions who fought in the Bataan Campaign of 1941-42. I have countless hours of interviews with them stored on cassette tapes in my closet, but for reasons I won’t go into here I just haven’t gotten around to re-starting the project, Except . . .
Except to say that at a certain point while conducting the oral history interviews, Iris Chang got in touch with me about it. Turns out she was planning to write a book on the same subject, and very graciously contacted me about it. We spoke on the phone on several occasions, and at considerable length, discussing the possibility of a collaborative effort. I even sent her a few of my interview tapes. The last time I spoke with her we agreed to meet in person, Our phone call conversations were very enjoyable, she was a really nice person — a down-to-earth Midwestern girl, graduate of the Univ of Illinois, and very, very smart. We had a lot in common: most notably, we had both written books about holocaust-type experiences, and we spoke at length about how conducting in-depth interviews with, respectively, Chinese survivors of the Rape of Nanking (her) and Jewish survivors of the Holocaust in Poland (me), had had troubling and long-lasting effects on us. I was greatly looking forward to meeting up with her. And then . . .
A few days after we last spoke, I received a phone call from a mutual friend, who told me that Iris had committed suicide.
I was, as you may well imagine, utterly devastated. It was only much later that I learned why, probably, she had taken her own life; and when I did I realized she was hinting at her very troubled state of mind in our conversations about writing those books. In any case, her death put me off writing about survivors of the Battle of Bataan and, subsequently, the Bataan Death March, the Hell Ships, and captivity as slave laborers in coal mines in Japan. I decided instead to undertake to write about the 2nd U.S. Marine Division in the Pacific War. I wanted to write about men who could take meaningful action and shoot back at the Japanese; not about helpless victims of Japanese barbarity.
And there the matter still stands, with regard to what I call my “Bataan Tapes.”
P.S. “Thief” was a terrific film. I saw it when it was first broadcast, and was floored. I wish I could find a copy.
Also, the WWII hostages were military men.
The WWII men we are discussing were not hostages, they were prisoners of war, and were not being used as hostages, i.e. as bargaining chips to gain leverage in negotiations with their enemies. The Israelis captured on Oct 7 are hostages indeed, in every sense of the word. Big difference.
THIEF, the film with Richard Crenna, appears to be available for free on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/EyIqVSmlh2I?si=UbPpQzkV7ZRBqet6
IrishOtter:
My main emphasis was on the fact that they were members of the military. I carelessly used the term “hostages” for them, but they indeed were prisoners of war.
@ Hubert & IrishOtter – thank you for the historical information on a subject that I had not previously encountered (my history reading is somewhat erratic).
What a tragic fate for Iris Chang, in the pursuit of such a worthy endeavor.
I recall reading over the years that many, if not most, veterans of the World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam resisted requests to talk about their experiences, possibly because of the emotional toll of reliving those days.
In Israel now, there is also an indication that the barbaric atrocities perpetrated by Hamas have likewise been a serious psychological trial for the people who dealt with them at the time and afterwards.
All wars generate atrocity stories, and later research often shows that many of them are either exaggerated or invented for propaganda purposes; in this case, we have incontrovertible physical and digital proof of what happened.
That anyone still denies it, with apparently sincere belief, is unfathomable for any rational person.
Those who deny it for mendacious ideological reasons while knowing it to be true are beyond despicable.
I did not know Iris Chang personally but her husband was a co-worker of mine at a Silicon Valley company at the time of her death. Afterwards he left the area to return to his native Illinois.
I recall the Beirut Lebanon situation in the early 80s. Kidnapping of Americans from the American University and other nationalities as well. The gangs/terrorists eventually got around to kidnapping a Soviet citizen attached to the Embassy. KGB had an idea of who the extended families of the terrorists were. Little parts (fingers, earlobes, etc.) started showing up in the terrorist network. Low and behold, the Russian kidnap victim showed up on a street corner, in pretty good shape, within 48 hours. I hate to say it (sort of) but the Israelis know the extended families of the Hamas leadership. Time to play hardball. The laws of war are based on reciprocity. Hamas is owed no considerations under the laws of war.
miguel, I was not aware that the infamous mufti was preceded by his brother. I looked it up (ok Wikipedia) and apparently the brother Kamil was the exact opposite – cooperative not only with the British but even with the Jews. It is tragic to think how the history of the area might have been altered for the better had he survived to be the leader of the Palestinians. Though he may have become subject to pressure to follow his brother’s more intransigent stance.
Scott Feil:
I’ll skip over the ethical questions with that idea and just get to the practical problems that made it different from the Soviet and Lebanon in the 80s. Hamas and company are far less interested than the kidnappers in 1980s Lebanon were in whether their own families live or die. Whether that’s true or whether it’s just their repeated rhetoric I’m not sure; maybe not true although they couldn’t care less about the Palestinians in general. But at any rate I have read that the Hamas jihadis’ families are down in the tunnels with them, for protection. So either they don’t much care, or they have anticipated the problem and protected their families at least to a certain extent.
Stepped Reckoning: Thank you! Very kind of you to look.
Otter: good point about the Japanese way of war. Furthermore, those transports weren’t just carrying Allied POWs. They were also carrying Japanese soldiers, munitions, and other war materiel. They were legitimate targets. The question is, Would we have attacked them if we had known for certain that POWs were also on board? From what I have read about the Pacific war–a “war without mercy” in historian John Dower’s words–and what I was told by my father and other veterans of that theater, I think we would have. You say not. You may be right.
Thanks for the background on your Bataan book and your conversations with Iris Chang. I was working at UIUC when her book on Nanking was published. As a hometown girl, she and it got a lot of attention in the local media. That was probably unavoidable, but it may not have been a good thing. I’m sure that the subject matter of her books–and her unsuccessful campaign to get the Japanese government to acknowledge the Imperial Japanese Army’s atrocities–contributed to her depression. It sounds like there were other, additional factors that pushed her to suicide.
I understand that Bataan was the site of the U.S. Army’s first tank battle of WWII. Not the place most people would think of.
Neo: yes, many of the Israeli hostages from October 7 are/were civilians–women, children, and old people. Not military men and not POWs. But the Israelis have historically been extremely reluctant to sacrifice POWs as well. My point was that they may have to run that risk if they want to destroy Hamas and the Hamas leadership.
Hubert:
I certainly didn’t mean for a moment to suggest that Israel doesn’t care about its soldier-hostages. It does, and in the past was willing to give up the sun, moon, and stars to get them back. But the hostages taken on October 7 nevertheless upped the ante considerably.
Bataan was indeed the venue of America’s first tank vs. tank clash. M3 Stuart light tanks and M3 tank destroyer half-tracks equipped with 75mm guns vs. Japanese Type 89 mediums. Most of the fellows I interviewed took part in that encounter, and they told me all about it. Fascinating, and exciting. I’ve got all their stories on tape. Say, I oughta re-start that project . . .
which came first – The Sand Pebbles ? or The Last Mohican ? didn’t TLM contain a similar scene, killing a rival about to be burned at the stake ?
yes I was looking up the Husseini clan, and how back their autonomy went back to 1843 when they had tangled with the Ottomans, Haj Amin may have gotten some of this sentiment from his father, who was not keen on Jews
I didn’t know that Bataan had been primarily a tank battle, the Imperial Army and Navy had some talented officers, like Yamamoto and Yamashita they were the more professional ones and many who were selected for their ideological zeal
Neo: agreed. I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. My point was that Israel, in its existential war against Hamas, may have to change its traditional policy of getting POWs and hostages (or their remains) back at almost any price. I used the case of American POWs in the Pacific as an example.
miguel:
The Bataan campaign was not primarily a tank battle. The clash of tanks to which I referred was a relatively brief (albeit violent and highly kinetic) engagement in northern Bataan that took place as Fil-American army was conducting its strategic withdrawal from north and south Luzon into the Bataan peninsula. The American tanks units were basically fighting a rear-guard action to delay the Japanese and buy time and breathing room for the Fil-American forces to dig in on Bataan.
I’m happy, of course, that some of the hostages were released. Happy for them and their families.
But whatever was paid to make that happen was too high a price.
We must always take into account what such a response teaches the world of terrorism about the success-rate of hostage-taking as a strategy. Every time it works, you should assume it will result in ten more identical or escalating uses of the same tactic.
Let us say that Israel traded one jailed terrorist for one hostage. Sounds like a fair deal?
No. No, it wasn’t, because that wasn’t the deal at all. The real deal was: “You give us our captured comrade, and we give you back the hostage now, and ten more kidnappings later.”
(That hypothetical deal doesn’t look so sweet once all the terms are spelled out. And of course the real deals made by Israel are usually far worse than 1-for-1 trades.)
I have told my family — sure, sure, it’s easy for me to say because it’s vanishingly unlikely the situation would ever arise, but still, I told them — that, in the event that I am ever taken hostage in a situation like that, my dearest and firmly hoped-for wish is to have the spot where I am being held hit with the fiercest possible airstrike. I would never want the terror felt, or the abuse endured, by the next ten hostages to be on MY conscience, because someone made the mistake of encouraging kidnappings on my account.
And anyway, the airstrike would probably take out at least a few of the kidnappers. Killing one terrorist is a high-value win, due to all the saved lives resulting from cutting short that terrorist’s future career. The death of each terrorist — and thus the saving of those other innocent lives — far outweighs the less-significant collateral damage of, well, me.
Again, easy for me to say, given the unlikelihood of such a scenario. But I do think it is the right call, as a matter of moral reasoning.