The hunt for Hamas leaders: hostages as human shields
Here’s a highly informative video from The Jerusalem Center on the topic of Israel’s hunt for Hamas leaders, both in Gaza and elsewhere. It answered some of my questions about how they got Arouri and what that might mean. They also discuss the human shield/hostage question. Watch as little or as much of the video you want, but I found the entire thing fascinating (once again, if you would like it to go faster, just click on “settings” and adjust the speed). Below the video I’ll discuss many points related to it.
(1) I continue to be astounded at the ability of certain modern weapons to take out a single part of a building and leave the rest intact.
(2) I think it is correct to emphasize the importance of taking out the terrorist leaders, but the speakers are also correct that the rank-and-file jihadis must continue to be taken out as well. The leaders can be replaced, of course, although their expertise and experience cannot. The rank-and-file can be replaced as well, but meanwhile if there could be some sort of re-education program it might slow that replacement process down and make it more difficult.
A great many people used to think (or still think) that the Palestinian conflict is a territorial one for the Palestinians – and I suppose in a way it is, if you consider their “territorial” aspirations to be every speck of Israel as well as whatever is considered Palestine. But it has also become more and more clear that the Palestinian goal and the Iranian goal and the goal of Iranian proxies (Hezbollah, for example) is to kill the Jews – and not just those in Israel. And for a long time it’s been clear that they are proud of seeking martyrdom and death for their own people.
I can’t offhand think of another enemy like that. At the end of WWII, Hitler thought the German people hadn’t measured up to the glorious plans he’d had for them, and so he didn’t care if they died. And he himself committed suicide rather than fall into Allied hands. But neither suicide for the German people nor for himself were part of his original goals; they were late developments when all was lost and even he seemed to know it. As for the Japanese during World War II, their kamikaze forces were willing to die in the act of taking down Allied ships, but I don’t think the majority of the general Japanese population could compare to the jihadis in terms of willingness and even extreme eagerness to die. The fact that the Palestinians openly speak of it, and state their desire to have large numbers of children in order to martyr them, means that Israel and Israel’s supporters can’t make the usual calculations or rely on the usual assumptions made when fighting enemies with more conventional values about life and death.
(3) Before October 7 I was aware that Gaza and the West Bank and Hezbollah had networks of tunnels. But this war has revealed a tunnel network far larger and more sophisticated than I ever thought existed. Perhaps it’s larger and more sophisticated than even the Israelis had previously thought existed. The Gazans and the Arabs in the West Bank had long been the recipients of enormous amounts of money from the UN and other “humanitarian” agencies, with the idea that they would use the funds to help their population and also build infrastructure. The money went to build infrastructure all right – but not the kind most societies construct. Instead, it went to what amounts to vast underground cities. This underlines the fact that Palestinian society is utterly dedicated to war on Israel and its leaders care next to nothing about their own people except as potential victims to show the world in order to stoke even more hatred towards Israel and more sympathy for the Palestinian “resistance.” This is so depraved and perverse that, once again, I can’t think of another culture that’s done anything resembling that, certainly not on a large scale (however, in the Vietnam War the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese also used a large network of tunnels, but not as enormous, widespread, or sophisticated as those of the Palestinians; they also sacrificed their children at times, but to nowhere near the same extent).
This sacrificial Palestinian use of their own children is hardly new, and anyone paying attention should have noticed it long ago. I wrote this lengthy post about the phenomenon back in 2007, for example, and this one in 2006. The situation has only gotten worse since then. And yet so many people in the West seem either unaware of it and/or uncaring about what it means.
(4) The hostages represent a horrific dilemma for Israel. That’s exactly why the terrorists took them and have kept most of them alive so far (I assume most are still alive). They learned the enormous value of hostages years ago. It is ironic that this is so because as much as the Palestinians value death, the Israelis value life and in the past were willing to engage in exceedingly lopsided prisoner exchanges that only encouraged the taking of more hostages. Just as in the past, the families of the October 7 hostages are demonstrating and pressuring the Israeli government to do just about anything to get them back. The families are suffering intensely, and one can hardly blame them for their actions, but if the government submits the repercussions will be dire and even suicidal as far as Israel’s very survival goes.
The speakers in the video say that Sinwar and the other Gazan leaders are of course well aware of this dynamic and feel smugly safe from being killed because they are currently holed up in the tunnels surrounded by the remaining hostages. They are counting on Israel being unwilling to kill the hostages in order to get to the Hamas leaders. And those leaders may indeed be correct that the presence of the hostages does guarantee the safety of Sinwar and the others. I don’t know what is going on in the Israeli leaders’ minds concerning the hostages, but the situation is horrendous and there seems to be no good solution – unless the Israeli leaders have tricks up their sleeves that I can’t even imagine at this point. I certainly hope they do.
Those who worshiped Baal in the Middle East practiced child sacrifice (Carthaginians, Cannanites, Phillistines), confirmed by modern archaeology, so it isn’t a libel by the Israelites or Romans. So the current “Palestinians (Gazamites and Westbankonians) may just be reviving and living as in the good old days.
Are they irredemiably evil, them and the Iranian mullahs? Close enough for cluster bombs, i.e., yes, for all practical purposes.
Minor quibble: the Philistines did not practice child sacrifice, or human sacrifice for that matter. They did not worship Baal. They were an Aegean people, from mainland Greece, basically Mycenaean in ethnicity and culture. Some scholars posit that they were from [the kingdom of] Pylos, home of old Nestor in the Iliad, and that they were the people whom the Egyptians identified as the Peleset in their Sea Peoples texts. It bears noting in this regard that King David, before he became king, fought as a mercenary captain for the Philistines. It is highly doubtful that he would have hired out to the Philistines if the latter had practiced child sacrifice — David could be a son-of-a-bitch, but I believe he would have drawn the line at associating with people who murdered children ritualistically.
That video, can’t remember where I saw it, circulating a few days ago showing how the Palis indoctrinate their kids to hate. 4 year olds talking about killing all the Jews. Mothers saying their greatest joy is to have their children martyred. Truly a death cult..the Israelis should give them what they desire most.
physicsguy:
You saw it here.
An item related to this interests me: How many westerners know the Hamas use of civilians as human shields and think it’s a great idea? More dead civilians, more innocents to peddle to the unknowing.
Do they have a moral problem? To the extent that their work extends the fighting, the more death is at least partially on their account.
Like Neo states, there is no good solution, which would be release of all Israeli hostages and death of the Hamas honchos. At least that solution seems rather unlikely.
There are solutions with tradeoffs. I can’t answer for Israelis, though I have met some Israeli relatives of friends of mine. One whom I met, when he was a teenager, is a member of a tank crew in Gaza. One solution: release of the remaining 100-150 (132?) Israeli hostages and liberty for the Hamas honchos holding them hostage. Another solution: death for both the remaining Hamas honchos holding the Israeli hostages, and for the hostages.
Seems to me that the death of the Israeli hostages with the death of the Hamas honchos is a fair tradeoff. Though it is quite possible that one outcome could be all the martyrs killed while the Hamas honchos have fled the scene. That tunnel system probably has a lot of surprises built into it.
Seeing the children of Gaza reciting the martyr narrative does not endear the Gazans to me. I wonder how many of the Hamas-supporting youth in the US have seen videos of Gaza children reciting the martyr narrative. Not very many, I’d predict.
Hamas’ leaders are ‘devout’ Imams. Hezbollah’s leaders are ‘devout’ Mullahs…
In Genesis 16:12 God warns of Ishmael’s nature:
“He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
Islam claims to descend from Ishmael.
Old Arab Bedouin saying: “I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world.”
“There are two races of men in this world but only these two: the race of the decent man and the race of the indecent man.” Viktor Frankl.
Thanks Neo…senior memory. 🙂
IrishOtter49:
Thanks for clearing up my mistake regarding the Phillistines.
the tribes to the north, in the levant were of a different nature, those were the phoenicians, who centuries later would settle malaga and what would be gibraltar,
Israel is more justified in demanding the unconditional surrender of Hamas, and arguably the Palestinians, than we were of Japan or Germany.
miguel:
The Phoenicians were Semites. Thus, Hannibal, a Carthaginian, was a Semite (the Carthaginians were Phoenicians who colonized North Africa and part of Iberia),
In the forthcoming biopic “Hannibal,” Denzel Washington plays the titular character. This is a terribly egregious instance of race-swapping (not to mention historiographical stupidity).
Another example of the woke, racialist, dumbing-down of our culture.
Anyway . . .
true, but who would you cast in the role, someone like the keeper of the high table, Taghimout, sic Denzel is also too old he might be Hasdrubal
I would cast an actor with classic Mediterranean features in his late 30s or 40s. Oscar Issac would be a good choice.
In addition to being black, which should disqualify him from the role, Denzel is, as you pointed out, too old. Hannibal was probably in early middle age when he went to war with Rome.
Hannibal was not a person of color, any more than the Hebrews of antiquity (also Semites) were people of color. Phoenicians’ complections probably ranged from olive-hued to lighter (i.e., “white”) coloration.
He could not play Hasdrubal because — must I say it — Hasdrubal was not black.
I hate race-swapping in movies: first, because its wrong (and, racist, and stupid); and, second, because it’s a one-way street. I mean, you’ll never see, e.g., Brad Pitt playing Shaka Zulu. But having a black man play Hannibal? In woke Hollywood, sure thing, no problem!
Re: Hamas tunnels
I lived in Boston for five years. I always took the subway. I spent a fair amount of time studying the transit maps.
I would love it if Israel would provide a detailed map of the Gazan tunnels thus far.
That would be vivid!
There is no group of people, no civilization currently living on Earth, that comes close to Gaza — where an entire population has no aspirations or self-determined purpose to achieve anything other than slaughter of their neighbors.
Can you imagine living in an urban neighborhood and every several blocks there was an entrance to an underground maze of tunnels used by terrorists?
Wouldn’t that be strange?
Is this the 21st Century or what?
Happy New Year! Israeli army footage of Hamas tunnel’s destruction in the Gaza Strip | AFP Video
https://commoncts.blogspot.com/2024/01/happy-new-year-israeli-army-footage-of.html
Fascinating and horrifying:
–“Israeli Video Shows The Webbed World of Hamas’s Terror Tunnels Underneath Gaza”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6EIK7p8Uj0
Tunnels?
Without mentioning N. Korea?
Hezbullah, too, seems to have gotten into the act…
As has the Palestinian Authority, at least to some extent.
(By the way, if you want to know what the West Bank will look like—underground that is—when/if Israel agrees (or is forced to agree) to giving even more of it back than it already has….)
Apparently, not all hostage families are demanding Israel prioritize the recovery of their loved ones. I live in the middle of a large Jewish population in L.A, many have relatives in Israel, come from there, talk regularly with people there, or visit there regularly. One woman I talked to said that many families are looking at the Israeli war dead, and understand that more are dying in the war than were killed on Oct 7. Some are therefor calling for Israel to prosecute the war in a way that minimizes Israeli deaths, even if that means sacrificing their loved ones.
“…more are dying in the war than were killed on Oct. 7…”
1200+ were killed on Oct. 7.
Is she saying that more than 1200 Israelis have been killed since Israel began its subsequent campaign against Hamas (including the hostilities on the northern border)?
If that’s what she’s saying then she’s wrong. However if she’s ALSO referring to the wounded then she’s more accurate, keeping in mind that there were many, many wounded on Oct. 7, including many emotionally.
To be sure the number of Israelis killed (approximately 200) so far is heart-wrenching … and there will be, alas, more…
That, decades later, they hate the Jews even MORE than they did when she said that says plenty about the essential nature of the Arab psyche and Islam in general.
Gilliland is a now-somewhat obscure SF writer of the late 70s/early 80s who wrote about a revolution in an O’Neil colony, as it broke away from its builder, the USA. It’s an interesting story, with some interesting dialogue, as he occasionally gets into “discussions” like this one about Marxism and Religion.
IIRC, it was General Curtis LeMay who said “if you kill enough of them they stop fighting.”
That works in societies, and cultures, that are “rational” by western standards; there comes a point at which even low levels of rationality determine that there is such an insufficient opportunity to achieve success further that further resistance is not “fighting for the cause” but simple suicide, and salvaging whatever is left by surrendering is a rational choice.
That condition of rationality does not exist with Hamas, Hezbollah or probably Iran; if only one person is still breathing it is their duty to exterminate Jews.
I’m afraid in this circumstance “if you kill enough of them they stop fighting” means “kill all of them.” I doubt the Israelis, or Jews anywhere, have a different option, at least not until hard evidence exists to confirm an alternative position. At which point the veracity of such position must, somehow, be confirmed to the satisfaction of the intended victims. I would assume that will be a very high bar to reach.
Were that it not so, but Reality is a very hard, unforgiving bitch.
“…Reality is…”
Not for this fellow!
“Top EU Diplomat Meets With Hezbollah Terror Group As War in Lebanon Looms”—
https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/top-eu-diplomat-meets-with-hezbollah-terror-group-as-war-in-lebanon-looms/
For him, extreme wishful thinking—IOW DENIAL—is the be-all and end-all of existence….
(To be fair to him, though, he’s a Spanish socialist…)
Yes borrell is a dhimmi
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1745044216697201131
Ann:
Apparently, not all hostage families are demanding Israel prioritize the recovery of their loved ones.
——————–
That is correct. The hard Left was already positioning itself to co-opt the hostage families as the first reports came in October 7th… the nerve center of the anti-government protests in Tel Aviv was quickly recast as the “protest tent” for the families of hostages… Many of these families felt uncomfortable with this segue and some even started their own organizations – which of course were ignored by the left-leaning media.
It has not worked out as the Left planned – although many of the families are themselves left-leaning, many Israelis are appalled by the manipulation of these peoples’ distress. And they have been countered by many parents who – at least in the Israeli media – have expressed support for the rigorous prosecution of the war.
In addition, families of fallen soldiers have unfortunately learned the drill – and almost every one of them calls for continued war until victory. Particularly pointed are the calls of parents that “our son’s loss not be for nothing, as it was for those who fell in the previous ‘limited engagements’ that did not solve the problem”. Ouch.
The return of some hostages – and the unfolding revelations of their abuse – has taken a lot of the urgency out of this issue. I must admit that it increases doubt that many have survived – and there is a slow reduction in the official count as more bodies from October 7th are identified.
Taking the larger view, many Israelis are disgusted by the Left’s political maneuvering during war – on the hostages, on the judicial reform issue, attacking Bibi but ignoring the Left-wing generals who precipitated the worst aspects of the attack. Et cetera.
Barry Meislin:
To be sure the number of Israelis killed (approximately 200) so far is heart-wrenching …
————————
If it were not for the hostage issue, Israel could be carpet-bombing.
Instead they are deploying infantry soldiers trained for urban conflict – as in the ineffectual “limited engagement” wars that targeted the terrorists and left the “innocent” civilians.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel-s-wars-and-operations
Does anyone remember those names? Historians will call them “the Oslo wars”… this is the 5th or 6th depending how you count.
For many Israelis the Army is fighting the last war – based on the false Oslo “conceptzia” that we have partners for peace – and causing needless casualties.
And the urban-style conflict is the source of most of the casualties… the cities are being leveled anyway, so what’s the point?
The people are way ahead of the Army and bureaucracy in changing their attitudes and goals. And in being willing to take the bien-pensant gloves off.
Some people here have even expressed the grim notion that the failed rescue attempts we’ve seen will slap the Army out of heroic Entebbe-type pipe dreams and direct their attention to the work at hand.
The Israelis should make citizenship conditional on allowing their death at the hands of the IDF (as collateral damage) if they are held hostage by Muslims.
I know it is a difficult concept, as these people have spouses and families, but the leverage the Muslims hold would be nullified.
Gaza should be carpet bombed. They are not signatories to the Geneva Convention, so can be legally carpet bombed.
Erronius
It is a recurrent good to me to see your comments on the vital political views you are experiencing in Israel Ben David. Greedily I yearn for more, yet wish no imposition. Anyhow, many thanks.
Thanks as always to Ben David for comments from inside Israel. I have the deepest sympathy for hostages’ families, and for the hostages themselves, those who still live.
With regret for them, I think it’s time for the IDF and government to stop playing the hostage game with Hamas or any other terrorists.
My husband was a fairly high-level executive with a large multinational company. He went all over the world. I think his company had clandestine kidnapping insurance. However, he told me clearly and emphatically that I was never to pay ransom for him if he were taken. On occasion his business visits were done accompanied by guards with machine guns.
Cavendish – “That condition of rationality does not exist with Hamas, Hezbollah or probably Iran; if only one person is still breathing it is their duty to exterminate Jews. ”
Oh, they’ll stop fighting. They’ll plead for peace, and even agree to it. And that peace will last right up until they think your attention has started to wander. Then they’ll once again go for the Israeli (and it’s not just Jews; any Israeli, regardless of ethnicity, is seen as a valid target by these people) throat.
It happens every time.
It’s important for me to remember that not all Muslims, (not even all Palestinians), subscribe to the death cult of Hamas and other hardliners.
SteveS:
Unfortunately, in the Arab world in particular, polls and surveys indicate that most do adhere to it. It is also common, but to nowhere near the same extent, in the non-Arab Muslim world.
The fact that there are moderate Muslims and even apostate Muslims doesn’t change these sobering and very dangerous facts.