Duck Duck Go search of “china antisemitism” gave links to recent stories.
There was a comment the other day about the Israel-Hamashite war and Behnan Ben Taleblu’s work at The Foundation for Defense of Democracy (FDD).
Yesterday the podcast Generation Jihad Episode 111 had a segment interviewing Benjamin Ben Taleblu. The episode is 41 minutes total and the current focus is the Israel-Hamashite war.
On podcasts about the war; The Telegraph’s podcast Battle Lines turns out to be slanted in favor of the terrorists, aka, poor suffering Gazamites. Pretty much went like this:
‘Who could have expected such a harsh and cruel reaction by Israel! Gaza has been living under a blockade (forever)!’
33 years in our house and we’ve only had one trick-or-treater ever. There’s a street in town where thousands of trick-or-treaters flock to every Halloween, which is impressive as our county population is less than 38,000. The police close the street off to traffic, it’s so chaotic. The houses outdo themselves and each other each year, even building facades on the front of their homes for their decorations. The people hand out full-size candy bars. People take up collections to help the residents of the street finance the cost. It’s a crazy time.
I wanted to stand at the end of the street, dressed as an IRS agent and confiscate 20% of everyone’s candy, but I really didn’t want to get shot, so I didn’t. It would be funny, though.
I get that antisemitism is often sort of hard coded into ethnic Muslims, but its evident metastasis into non-Muslim Asians with no significant historic Judeo-Christian connection is deeply recondite to me. But to be fair I really don’t understand antisemitism in the modern age at all.
Ruth, I can’t say I’ve ever seen someone dance in swim fins before.
The accused Cornell student’s father is reported by the Daily Mail to be “a professor in a university in China,” so he may be plugged into the wave of Jew-hatred online in China referenced in that WSJ article. The parents say their son is depressed and sometimes emotionally unstable.
Nonapod:
Antisemitism serves the foreign and domestic policy of Xi the CCP and Can Do! land. Can Do! land has few Jews and some Muslims (although they are perseccuted) so it could be just another manipulation of their masses by Xi.
Nonapod, if Jew-hatred is Satanic, he’s billed as an equal-opportunity influence.
Job 1:7, “The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it”
It may be useful sometimes to remember that not all human disasters are political in origin. On this day in 1755, Lisbon was struck by an earthquake of magnitude 7.7 or higher, leading to an estimated death toll of 50,000 in Portugal alone. People were killed by a tsunami surging up from the port as well as by widespread fires following the structural collapse of houses and churches; about 85% of the buildings in Lisbon were destroyed. November 1 being All Saints Day, many people were in church when the earthquake struck around 9:40 a.m. One positive outcome of the disaster was the beginning of the modern science of seismology and earthquake engineering.
As usual, Robert Spencer minces no words in describing Islamic Jihadists as “weak men” who “lack of real masculinity” and “often also wish to deny and suppress their homosexual inclinations”.
‘Who could have expected such a harsh and cruel reaction by Israel! Gaza has been living under a blockade (forever)!’
That must be why all other Arab states refuse immigration to Palestinians.
I was sad to see a piece in the Tucson newspaper today equating both sides in this war. Tucson, of course ios deep blue. The writer asserts that Israel has to move.
Does the Tucson piece say to where Israelis should move, Mike K?
PA+Cat:
David Bentley Hart touched upon the Great Lisbon Earthquake and the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami and the greater question of God, theodicy:
I had to read (years ago now) both Voltaire’s poem on the Lisbon earthquake (alongside Candide) as well as Kant’s attempt to give a natural explanation of the earthquake. He thought it was caused by the dislocation of a large cave beneath the earth filled with hot gases. Kant’s theory was wide of the mark, but it did mark the beginning of scientific seismology.
And I do remember the Hart article; thanks for the reminder.
Playing the victim card…
…(but of course)…
“Hamas official promises: ‘We’ll repeat Oct. 7 massacre until Israel is annihilated’ ;
” ‘We are victims – everything we do is justified,’ Hamas spokesperson claims.” https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379525
H/T Powerline blog.
Looks like the civilized world (so-called) will have to make a choice.
“Biden” ‘s already made “his”, certainly…but the Master of Coverup and King of Optics is scrambling mightily trying to hide that choice…lest anyone find out—Find out TOO SOON, that is—what should have been obvious from Day 1.
I have always thought it strange when ” Christians ” are anti Jew. Jesus was a Jew. The Apostles were Jews. Most of the Biblical writers were Jews. Luke, a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul, being a probable Greco-Roman exception, which you can see as he seems to be writing to another non Jew and explaining ” Jewish” things to an outsider.
My long suspicion is that those ” Christians” who are anti Jew tend to be the type that do not get involved in PERSONAL Bible study. I am sure there are exceptions.
To be sure, the current—massive and multi-dimensional—“Biden”-engineered Global crises may well have come at “the right time”…
“Joe Biden received $40K in ‘laundered China money’ from brother in 2017, Comer says;
“Rep James Comer says James Biden paid Joe Biden $40K as a ‘loan repayment’ after receiving funds from Hunter Biden linked to China’s CEFC”— https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-biden-received-40k-in-laundered-china-money-from-brother-in-2017-comer-says
OTOH, don’t worry ’bout a thing: the Corruption-Fighter-in-Chief is fast and furiously proving to ALL OF US “his” Anti-Corruption prowess!!
My long suspicion is that those ” Christians” who are anti Jew tend to be the type that do not get involved in PERSONAL Bible study. I am sure there are exceptions.
Jon baker:
One thing I’ve noticed is that Catholics, by and large, are less versed in the Bible than Protestants. If you don’t hear a Bible passage at Mass, you pretty much don’t hear it at all.
Of course, this has a history:
_______________________________________
We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue.
–Pope Gregory IX, “Canon 14, Council of Toulouse (1229)”
_______________________________________
A distinguishing feature of Protestantism was an emphasis on reading the Bible for oneself and perhaps! even interpreting it for oneself.
Anyway. I find Protestants refreshing for their knowledge of the Bible. I concur with M J R’s observation that Bible literacy in America has dropped like a rock in recent decades.
Which is a shame. It’s a deep spiritual book which once was an important part of how America was interconnected.
Returning to Jon Baker’s speculation that personal Bible study might protect from anti-Semitism — I wonder if today’s Catholics tend to anti-Semitism more than other forms of Christianity.
I doubt it. Christian anti-Semitism has a long, complex history, but I don’t think Bible study makes the difference.
The most virulent anti-Semite I’ve known personally read the Bible deeply. He considered it “spiritual food.”
I largely agree with Elon Musk’s ascertion that George Soros hates humanity (a claim I believe Musk made months ago in a series of Tweets and repeated in his recent appearance on Joe Rogan’s podcast). I would only tweak Musk’s assessment a bit, adding a bit of specificity to the term “hate”. My guess is that Soros actually has a hateful contempt for the overwhelming majority of human beings, viewing people as little more than cattle in needing of herding. He likely makes exceptions for a certain cohort, people he views as special elites. And no doubt his heir is of the same line of thought.
Jon baker; huxley:
One of the most vicious Jew-haters was Martin Luther.
I was going to point that out, Neo, about Martin Luther. Culture has a lot to do with what people hate. European cultures had a very bad history of treatment of Jews, with which the actual Bible had little to do. The disdain continued unabated for a long time after the translation of the Bible into the common languages and their dissemination via the printing press.
What Christians will not find, if they read their Bibles either casually or carefully, is any exhortation to kill Jews in the name of Christ. This is a major difference from the third Middle Eastern-origin monotheist faith, Islam, which does contain exhortations to kill Jews in the name of Allah.
People do tend to misread the Bible or misstate what it says to suit their own purposes. A couple of years ago I endured a sermon by a Protestant preacher who said he’d always thought Jesus was “white.” He cannot possibly have read the Bible if he thought Jesus was northern European like all the Lutherans he knew in the Upper Midwest.
Kate:
In Luther’s case, it was apparently personal – which, strangely enough, has parallels with Mohammed. Both of them started out by being somewhat kind to the Jews, assuming the Jews would convert as a result of their preaching. When that didn’t happen, they turned on the Jews very viciously. It took different forms, because Mohammed was writing scripture for Islam and Luther wasn’t writing scripture. And it is my impression that Luther’s very extreme anti-Semitism was not the norm for Christian clerics of the time, although there certainly was plenty of Christian anti-Semitism.
Interesting, Neo. Not being myself Lutheran, I don’t know a great deal about Luther’s history, other than the obvious Reformation topics. I looked for when Jews were expelled from Europe, and found an extensive list of when Jews were expelled from all over. They were thrown out of England from 1290 until 1655. Pogroms and expulsions throughout Europe were contemporary to Luther’s time as well.
Since we’re delving deep into the evil men do, I’ll play devil’s advocate — or perhaps the devil himself — by bringing up the uncomfortable subject of the Hebrews’ genocidal war against the Canaanites and, later, against the Amalikites. These were ordained by God himself. And they were historical events, not allegorical tales.
I find these and other genocidal acts by the Hebrews hard to reconcile with my Catholic-Christian faith. Jews find it hard also. I have read a lot, and I mean a lot, of theological/philosophical works addressing this problem. I have yet to be satisfied with the explanations given. If I think too much on the subject, my ongoing simmering crisis of faith only intensifies.
Remember, Samuel said to Saul: “And He sent you on a mission, saying, `Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.'”
Every man, woman, and child. All their animals.
Same-same for the Canaanites.
Imagine what that entailed.
Not allegorical stories. But rather: Historical events.
I hope I have not awakened the Balrog with my preceding comments.
Yes indeed and that influenced german policy initially he was well disposed
As mass murderers go, Saul was very reluctant and conflicted.
God punished him for that.
I’ve always felt sorry for Saul A tragic figure. David, on the other hand, was morally and ethically quite compromised. Not a pleasant fellow, really.
The undeniable extremes of evil and viciousness that Muslims and Christians have visited upon Jews is prefigured, in the Bible, by the destruction of the Canaanites and Amalilikites. Ot snyone, for that matter, who stood in the path of the Hebrews in their quest to fulfill their destiny.
Did God really order them to commit genocide? Or was that their faulty interpretation of God’s will? I believe — hope — it was the latter.
Just wanted to provide a cautionary note to what seems like some self-congratulatory attitudes in this thread.
IrishOtter49, as I recall, God’s command to destroy the Canaanites was because of their debased and evil religious practice which involved child sacrifice. I’m not sure about the Amalekites. Child sacrifice was not unusual among the tribes in the fertile crescent and north Africa.
I got detoured reading about the readmission of Jews to England under Oliver Cromwell in 1655. He believed that, England having established the correct Protestant religion, it was the best possible place to convert Jews. A contingent of Jews, led by Menasseh ben Israel, petitioned for admission as a refuge from growing pogroms in Europe. Cromwell assented, and Jews were granted freedom of worship, the right to have synagogues, and a burial ground in London. There was some concern, after the Restoration of Charles II in 1660, that the legalization of the Jews would be reversed, but as it happened, some Jewish bankers on the Continent had helped Charles in exile, and he continued the policy. Since then, until the present day when many fanatic Muslims live in the UK, it has been one of the safer places for Jews to live.
The Amalekites, according to the Biblical account, instead of attacking the Israelite armed contingent, attacked the rear of the Israelite column, killing the stragglers who could not keep pace: the old, the very young, the women and the lame.
This was considered “not cricket” by the Almighty (apparently an avid cricket fan).
Amalek found out—the hard way—that it’s never a good idea to play “not cricket” against God’s people(TM).
It’s a lesson that some constantly have to learn.
(Not to worry, though. God’s people(TM) also have their own lessons to learn. Again. And again. And again. And again….)
IrishOtter:
First of all, the entire world did that sort of thing back then. That was thousands of years ago. Why would the Israelites be uniquely guilty, if in fact the story is even true?
And do you know why the Amelekites were considered enemies? Do you think the Israelites just went in and slaughtered a bunch of peaceful people for no reason? If you’re into this Biblical narrative, here’s what it says:
In Deuteronomy 25:17–19, The Israelites are specifically commanded to “blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven” once they have taken possession of the promised land in retribution for “what Amalek did to [them] on the way as [they] were coming out of Egypt.” Earlier, in Deuteronomy 7:1–16 and Deuteronomy 25:16–18, they are commanded to utterly destroy all the inhabitants of the idolatrous cities in the promised land and their livestock; scripture purports that King Saul ultimately loses favor with Yahweh for failing to kill King Agag and the best livestock of the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15 in defiance of these commandments.
In 1 Samuel 15:1–9, Samuel identifies Amalek as the enemy of Israelites, saying “Thus says the Lord of hosts: I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt.” …
According to 1 Samuel 30:1–2, the Amalekites invaded the Negev and Ziklag in the Judean/Philistine border area towards the end of the reign of King Saul, burning Ziklag and taking its citizens away into captivity. The future king David led a successful mission against the Amalekites to recover “all that the Amalekites had carried away”
What’s more, no one seems to know whether the Amalekites even existed (no non-Biblical mention of them has ever been found) or whether they are merely symbolic. At any rate, Jews haven’t been wiping out Amalekites for many thousands of years (if indeed they ever did), and they have until now shown remarkable restraint against their murderous neighbors who would like to destroy them.
According to legend, Haman—“the Agagite”—of Book-of-Esther fame, was a descendant of Agag, the Amalekite King whom Saul was supposed to have slain but who was slain, instead, by Samuel (see episode quoted directly above).
(The Biblical weigh-in on the good ole nature-nurture debate….)
neo (and the rest):
I know all that. Did you think for moment that I did not know?
Your statements constitute a form of denial. You’re rationalizing things that cannot and should not be rationalized.
And neo, it doesn’t really matter whether or not these events were historical, anymore than it mattered whether not Muhammed’s orders concerning the killing of infidels were real; whether or not Muhammed even existed.
Some of you here have quoted the Quran’s violent passages to make your points. Well, in playing devil’s advocate, I’ve quoted the Bible.
The ultimate point is this: many honest and reputable theologians, as well as those who think on these matters, are troubled by the aspect of God that sanctions genocide. They struggle with it. As do I.
It is demeaning to yourselves to say that these genocidal acts took place in a different time, if they took place at all, and the people committing genocide were merely acting in accordance with the standards of their times. Or that the Canaanites deserved what they got because t4hey sacrificed children and otherwise behave in ways that were anathema to the Hebrews. Never again mean never again, even in reverse, no less in than past than now. A thousand years from now,, people may say that Hamas was merely acting in accordance with their values. That’s an historicist argument and it’s bullshit. Shame on you for making it.
But he played a mean harp…not to mention his poetic talents…
(Actually, the Almighty would agree with you, at least partially; and that’s the reason why according to the Biblical account, David was not permitted to build the Holy Temple; THAT was built by his more peaceful, less impetuous, less sinning son, the wise king Solomon—though for a supposedly wise fellow, he had his share of weaknesses, too—ah the humanity….. Anyway, sounds like it might make a decent movie…)
Kate:
But Middle Easterners and Jews are white, in the way the word is traditionally used. So Jesus probably was, as well. When the word is used by the left, racial categories change and are not based on the old divisions. Instead, people defined as oppressed are “people of color.” So you get the weirdness of the white Palestinians being defined as “brown” whereas their genetically similar Israelis – and also very black Israelis – are defined as “white.” Being white doesn’t mean you are Scandinavian.
It certainly sounded like you didn’t know, for example, that the events might not have occurred.
Hamas is an anomaly in these times, by the way, so that particular analogy to the Israelites and Amelekites doesn’t wash.
I am not a Biblical literalist and I don’t see your point. The Jews haven’t been genocidal towards anyone for thousands of years, if they ever were. Most Jews don’t take the Bible literally either, so it’s not what’s motivating Israel. What’s motivating Israel is survival – which is actually what I think they Amelekite story in the Bible is about, although I really don’t know.
If you think the Bible not giving good counsel, that’s fine. I’m not into killing all the Amelekites either. But when people quote the Koran’s violent anti-Jewish verses, understand that the Moslems and Hamas are quoting those same verses themselves, as justification for what they’re doing and for war on present-day Jews all over the globe.
That is a huge difference between the meaning of those words for Moslems, versus how Jews view the Bible’s words about Amelekites. Israel is not following the Bible when it is trying to defend itself against one of the worst purposeful attacks on civilians in modern history.
Perhaps I overstated about Luke explaining Jewish things to a non Jewish intended audience, although there is a widespread thought process, though debated, that Luke was a non Jewish convert to Christianity and that his Gospel did seem to be aimed more specifically to non Jews than some of the others.
Your assumption is that God’s decisions were arbitrary.
Of course to even believe that, one must believe in God.
If one believes this, then it would seem that God should be the target of one’s ire.
BTW, many rabbis were also troubled…or perhaps, were uncomfortable might be more accurate.
Which might raise a question: Did God tell anyone else to slaughter any other specific group (and did God give a specific reason for it)?
Or was slaughtering another group merely a personal matter…?
Once again, does God even exist?
(And if God does exist, should one pay much heed to those extreme exigencies that God does seem, from time to time, to demand. E.g., the testing of Abraham…which also makes quite a few rather queasy, uncomfortable, angry, etc.)
Christians were just as enthusiastic at killing one another in the Middle Ages. The Albigensians which were a belief that was a reaction to corruption in the clergy,” were massacred and a plenary indulgence was the reward for killing them. The difference is that Islam is the only religion that has taken its violent past into the modern era. The Japanese took some aspects of their Shinto religion into violence but that has ended as far as I know.
the jihadi either wins and then can help himself to the property and the women of those whom he has defeated, or he loses and is killed (“martyred”), in which case he will spend eternity with the celebrated virgins of Islamic paradise. In this, the cult of jihad is much like the cult of National Socialism (that’s what “Nazi” is an abbreviation for, kids): it’s an idolatry and caricature of masculinity that appeals in particular to weak men.
Regarding my earlier statement. The passage I was thinking about specially that seemed to be explaining Jewish customs to non Jews ( or maybe less strict Jews ? ) was actually in Mark chapter 7. Even so, Luke may very well be the only non Jewish New Testament writer, which was my point about I have never understood anti Jew Christians.
Perhaps the slaughter of the Amalekites was necessary for the preservation of the Jews, and therefore Jesus, the Messiah.
Many of God’s acts are incomprehensible to humans.
Re “white,” some people, who are not White Supremacists, think it means having northern European ancestry. But many people of northern European ancestry are actually tan, brown, pink or red, depending on how much sunshine they get.
RE: Reasons for Government UFO Secrecy– continued
It makes sense that one of the main reasons that the government/DOD is so adamant about keeping whatever they know about UFOs secret, and has been and is making all sorts of efforts to tamp down citizen interest in this subject, is because any actual broad discussion and examination of this subject inevitably brings with it the realization that–for all of the trillions of dollars we have poured into our military budgets over the years, despite all of the fancy high tech hardware we have invested in, and all of the training that millions of our soldiers have undergone–UFOs go wherever they want to go, and do whatever they want to do with impunity, and our government and our military are absolutely powerless to prevent these continuous violations of our airspace—especially “restricted” airspace, of our oceans, of an unknown number of our citizens, and of our sovereignty.
It certainly appears that our “authorities,” militaries, and leaders are powerless, humanity as a whole is powerless, in the face of the reality of the technological superiority of UFOs, and who or whatever is behind them, and our leaders and our militaries don’t want to advertise it, or to have to admit it.
ToI, (no byline), “Report: Biden indicated to Netanyahu he believes his days in office are numbered”
A third US official says that the expectation within the administration is that Netanyahu would only be able to remain in power for a few more months or until the early phase of Israel’s ground incursion into Gaza ends. However, all officials acknowledged the volatility of Israeli politics, which serves as a caveat to their speculations.
As the US begins to think about a post-Netanyahu scenario, its officials have held talks with National Unity chair Benny Gantz, who joined the government after the war’s outbreak; as well as Opposition Leader Yair Lapid and former prime minister Naftali Bennett, a former US official tells Politico.
The two senior Biden officials say the administration fears Netanyahu may be linking his own political future to the war and might move to escalate the conflict at some point.
These people never stop.
are they really, see the islamic emirate of raqqua or afghanistan, in terms of large states saudi arabia, until recently did not have high regards for jews or women or nonconformist behaviors, the uae is a little ahead,
I don’t trust gantz or bennett, any more than I can throw them, many of these policies like the mass ingress of workers from gaza, game under their aegis,
I’m guessing that Neo doesn’t much care for the VDare website, but she may like this from John Derbyshire:
The Rolling Stones, Cher, the Beatles, … Yeah, yeah [ ,yeah?]. If we’re talking about later-20th-century pop music, though, I’m going to unmask myself as an unapologetic Bee Gees fan.
Barry, Robin, and Maurice were as good as it gets; I’ll brook no argument. Here is one of their sweetest….
Neo, the errant preacher I listened to seemed very much to think of “white” as “northern European.” In fact, many Americans of decades gone by did, too; as waves of Italians, Greeks, Central Europeans, and Jews came in, they were definitely not treated as part of the “white” majority, at least for a generation or two. This particular preacher’s biases were so bad that he probably meant to imply that Jesus was African, i.e, “black,” which is a preposterous idea some people hold. It was a Black Lives Matter sort of sermon. I was only there because we were visiting friends, and we didn’t walk out out of consideration for our friends. We won’t go back.
The salient point about these religious arguments is that ancient battles and massacres are not something carried forward as mandates into the modern age, except for Muslims. Islam teaches that Muhammad’s reported massacre of Jewish tribes in Arabia fourteen centuries ago is an activity that is commanded for Muslims for all time. Jews are not commanded to kill Canaanites or Amalekites today, assuming they could find any.
the Khaybar example, another temporary truce is a hudna like Hudabiya,
conversely, they make the loss by Arabs in 48, the Catastrophe, or Nakbah,
I don’t think first century jews called the losses of Masada and Bar Kochba, a catastrophe, although it probably was,
You’re going to pass an Israel-only bill, Mitch, and you’re going to like it!
I am not a Biblical literalist and I don’t see [IrishOtter49’s] point. The Jews haven’t been genocidal towards anyone for thousands of years, if they ever were. Most Jews don’t take the Bible literally either, so it’s not what’s motivating Israel.
–neo
I’m not a Bible literalist either. I’m not crazy about what happened to the Canaanites (I’ve forgotten about the Amelekites, if ever I knew), but I do note the important difference:
Long ago we are told God told the Jews to do that in one particular instance in one particular region. This has not been repeated in the past couple thousand years.
It wasn’t a blank check for the Jews to subjugate all religions in perpetuity until they dominate the entire world as with Muslims. Furthermore, as we know, for Muslims violence is not a problem.
___________________________
The Great Prophecy*
[48:28] He is the One who sent His messenger with the
guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over
all other religions. GOD suffices as a witness.*
*48:28 This important prophecy informs us that Submission
will inevitably dominate the whole world.
–Quran
Well…I was going to stick my toe in the “Luther the anti-Semite” shallow end of the pool…but boy that escalated quickly! That’s what I get for going to wait for the ambulance with my fallen neighbour…she’s up & relatively ok…thanks for asking.
Anyway…I remember an old church history professor telling us that Luther was theologically steeped in the prevailing Roman Catholic mindset of the Holy Roman Christendom church that misread Matthew 27:25 “Let his (Christ’s) blood be upon us and our children!” as a perpetual “curse” until the Jews repented and recognised Jesus as the Messiah. Evidently because Jews of his day persisted in being Jewish…Luther got viscerally riled up & let fly, which was his wont against anyone he perceived as rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ. So he railed against them with pretty vile invective. His argument was first theological but for him since his theology nearly cost him his life it went personal rapidly.
Neo’s comparison with Mohammed is mighty close to the mark…with the caveat that Luther the theologian made no pretence of speaking for God in this instance but extrapolating outward against any & all who rejected the good news, while Mohammed was laying down law for all time…hence the intractable nature of Islamic Jew-hatred.
Most reputable scholars in the intervening years, & certainly any Lutherans who want to be taken seriously (I speak for myself here), reject that Jew-hatred fully. We also are careful with Genesis 12:3 one of Abraham’s blessings from Yahweh, “I will bless those who bless you & any who curse you I will curse.” That is not a demand that for a nation to be blessed by God we must uncritically “bless” Israel. There are Christians who argue that…I would say they’re mistaken.
Back to Luther…my history professors all argued that Luther, as dedicated a Romans & Pauline scholar as he was, didn’t take the full weight of Roman 9, 10, & 11 into account where Paul laments the rejection of Jesus as Messiah by the very people who should have seen it clearly. But Paul lives in hope that the promises that belonged to the Jews from eternity to eternity, would eventually include them again.
That’s Paul’s (and the whole New Testament’s) hope because from first page to last, the Bible with which most of us have some passing acquaintance (the Canonical 66 books) details God’s intent to enjoy fellowship with the entirety of Creation…all that God has made. We’re designed to enjoy a great wedding feast at the end of the ages that even the Old Testament points toward with exciting clarity & anticipation.
How’s that? It seems I got long-winded again…I’m told I do that sometimes. 😉
he went way over the top around 1536, he was sympathetic before under previous influences and he influenced figures like john frederick,
the proper way to look at it, were the pharisees and the saducees were a regretable but necessary vehicle in the fullfillment of the covenant, as laid out in Isiah, 700 hundred years before,
Given the time and location, I think of Jesus as a scruffy looking Middle Easterner.
I have seen a Prius with a What Would Jesus Drive? bumper sticker. Implying that he would have a small, probably electric car. Jesus was a carpenter, like his Dad. I think it is safe to say that, given job requirements, and the state of roads then, that Jesus would drive a Dooley 4X4 crew cab F-350. Wood and disciples take up space!
“Wood and disciples take up space!”
That actually made me laugh! Well done!
I once attended a series of evening lectures given by a Duke Divinity OT scholar (Presbyterian, back when they were conservative). According to him, “be this upon us and upon our children!” was normally meant to be to the third generation or so, never forever and ever. That curse, even if invited by the mob that night, didn’t extend to all their people, nor to all their people’s descendants forever.
“Wood and disciples take up space!”
That actually made me laugh! Well done!
Ditto!
“That curse, even if invited by the mob that night, didn’t extend to all their people, nor to all their people’s descendants forever.”
Kate…you are 100% correct. BUT…what should be understood prima facie in the text & what some claim is in the text, are…well…not always the same thing. Scriptural interpretation is often painted in deliberately over-broad strokes.
The whole “blame the Jews for killing Jesus” is repugnant & still pops up its ugly head throughout history.
BTW – (Presbyterian, back when they were conservative) made me chuckle as well. In Australia, most still are. So there’s that. Pax vobiscum
their lips are moving, I could name half a dozen officials who would conduct that conversation,
huxley:
Yes, one of the things about Jews is that they’re a “live and let live” religion; they don’t try to convert the world or subjugate it.
And it seems they’re hated for that too.
Catholics are a varied group. Even among Roman Catholics there is a lot of diversity and differing interpretations of scripture. I doubt there is a religious group in the U.S. more evenly divided between the political parties than Catholics currently are.
To huxley’s point, when scripture comes up in conversation I often joke with my Protestant, Baptist and Jewish friends; “I’m Catholic. We don’t read the Bible.” It’s a fun joke, but, truth be told, most Catholics I know are fairly well versed in the New Testament, especially the Gospels, and I know Catholics who are very conversant in all of the Bible. Most Catholics I know, including Priests, aren’t Bible fundamentalists. It’s a common canard I hear with historical precedent, but I know of no active movement among Roman Catholic leadership to discourage independent Bible study and interpretation. Every Priest I know personally enjoys debate, even on religious topics*.
Regarding antisemitism, I don’t see it in Catholicism outside of immigrants. I heard a lot of antisemitic statements growing up in Chicago in the ’60s and ’70s, and a fair amount was from practicing Catholics, but they were pretty much all first generation immigrants from Europe. I don’t recall anyone I knew who was born in the U.S. that was antisemitic. Antisemitism was also prevalent among the followers of Chicago’s black leaders; Reverend Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan.
This seems to correlate with what I see lately on my TV and computer screen; antisemitism in immigrant groups in the U.S., England, Australia… Yes, as with the pussy hat marches and the BLM protests; there are a lot of homegrown morons marching and protesting in support, but I think a lot of young people do this out of a sense of “allyship” for friends whom they believe are marginalized.
Thinking back to my childhood, it seems antisemitism was more common among eastern European immigrants than those from the Mediterranean, or West. For example; I don’t recall Irish or Italians seeming to have any concern about Jews. But that could just be the random sample of people I encountered growing up. I was always very pro-Judaism and had a lot of Jewish heroes (Groucho Marx among them), so it was never a topic I introduced into conversation, but, unfortunately, it was not rare to hear someone say something disparaging about “Jews.” I remember being very saddened when I went to my first bathroom stall in College. I was glad to be out of the working class environment I had been raised in, and looked forward to interacting with more enlightened people at University. That stall had some of the worst antisemitic and racist graffiti I had ever seen. It was very disappointing, and unfortunately, the norm for the rest of the campus.
There is a common, odd trait that many people feel the need to comment on someone being Jewish. For example, if discussing “Indiana Jones” “Oh, did you know Harrison Ford is Jewish?” Whereas, if “Mission Impossible” comes up no one ever says, “Oh, did you know Tom Cruise was raised Catholic?” I’m not sure why that is, but it seems to only happen when someone is Jewish. Funny thing is, I think many Jews do the same thing when discussing famous people.
*I’ve found a lot of Americans who do not attend church assume there are a lot of political edicts issued by clergy. That is certainly not the case in any Catholic church I have attended. Even on the issue of abortion. The topic often appears in sermons leading up to major elections, but I’ve never heard a Priest name a political party and I’ve never, ever heard a Priest connect practicing faith properly with voting a certain way. There will often be a collective, sincere prayer offered for wisdom and guidance for our political leaders, but that’s about as specific as things get. I have heard many good sermons on moral decay, the effects of social media on people, especially youth, etc… But even then the emphasis is on individuals doing the right thing and parents getting involved in their children’s lives; not instructing parishioners to vote for certain policies or politicians likely to enact certain laws.
In re the Israel-Jews-Christians discussion:
My personal belief is that no one is accountable for the acts of their progenitors of any generation.
If they willingly continue in the same pathway to do evil, that is on their own heads.
If parents (or grandparents or others with authority) teach their children to do evil, the sin is on the heads of the parents.
Palestinian children today, and perhaps Muslims in general (and, really, everyone), are going to be a complex case, but I suspect that God can separate the willing from the duped.
Some remarks on the subject of religious denominations and the Jews from people directly concerned:
Many evangelical and mainstream protestant churches support Israel and the Jewish people, but it’s more of a mixed bag, not surprisingly.
I didn’t find any statements BY evangelical leaders, but here are some from the Jewish perspective.
https://www.newsrael.com/posts/9vp0ako21kg
“The support of members of Congress for Israel does not happen only because of their personal faith, it takes place in a space where millions of Christians define to their members of Congress the importance of supporting Israel.” by Kobby Barda Nov 1, 2023
Short and worth quoting in full, because he dismisses some of the favorite tropes about evangelicals and Jews that are found in most media.
A new academic paper published in Politics and Religion [LINK] explores the source of evangelical Christian support for Israel. There are a host of complicated religious and political factors, some of which are benign, and some of which will undoubtedly make some Jews uncomfortable–many evangelicals believe that the establishment of Israel is a necessary prelude to Jesus’ Second Coming, which according to many will involve Jews converting to Christianity.
The most important bit of information I gleaned from the study, however, is that by far the strongest correlate of evangelical support for Israel was their opinion of Jews. In other words, evangelicals who are favorably inclined toward Jews (a strong majority) are strongly inclined to support Israel, and the minority of evangelicals who have an unfavorable opinion of Jews tend not to support Israel.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that evangelical support for Israel masks an underlying antisemitism, that evangelicals only support Israel so that Jews can be gathered in one place to be destroyed as part of the Second Coming, and thus their support for Israel is actual a reflection of anti-Jewish hostility. This turns out to be wildly wrong; whatever their theological views of the Second Coming, pro-Israel evangelicals are also pro-Jewish.
My statistical skills are pretty basic, so I checked with one of the authors to make sure I was reading this right. He responded, “I agree with you 100%. They [evangelical supporters of Israel] are not antisemites, but philosemites.”
Rufus T. Firefly:
True, the Roman Catholic Church has given up its historical effort to be the Bible’s gatekeeper for people. And, to be sure there are Catholics well-versed in the Bible.
With a few exceptions the lay Catholics I’ve known didn’t know the Bible beyond what they heard at Mass. The exceptions were Catholics who had gone off the reservation into the Charismatic movement.
In parochial school we were mostly taught Catholic doctrine with occasional scriptural quotes. Perhaps that has changed.
An ex-Catholic friend I had met at an Episcopal Church said he had started a Bible study group while he was in Catholic seminary and the powers that be shut it down. There may be more to the story than I heard..
I didn’t notice politics or anti-Semitism with Catholics. It did seem just about all the Catholics I knew were Democrats and I saw lots of pictures of JFK and RFK.
Back then the Catholic Church was less ecumenical and more interested in asserting its position as the One True Church.
I can’t track down all the individual denominations, but a few searches turned up mostly formal statements and calls for prayers. Older posts sometimes mentioned an individual church or conference’s position on the Israel/Palestine situation in general, but you can find those yourself for any group you are interested in.
There was at least one group putting their beliefs into action. https://www.christianpost.com/news/texas-baptist-men-provides-thousands-of-meals-in-israel.html
“TBM volunteers are working alongside an Israeli partner in a secure location. The volunteers are rotating in and out of Israel, with 20 in place on Oct. 24 and another team slated to head there in early November.
In addition to the mass-feeding volunteers, TBM provided $150,000 to transport medical professionals from the United States to help treat people affected by the war.”
This could go on any of the Israel-Hamas war threads, because it addresses somewhat the question of why so many people have bought into the Left/Islamic framing of the conflict, as well as speaking to the recognition that many have had of watching the Western left go Nazi in real-time (Godwin’s Law has, of necessity, been placed on hold for the duration).
FM says:
November 1, 2023 at 3:45 pm
First job I had out of college one very senior coworker had been drafted into the Wehrmacht, handed a rifle, and sent to go fight Russians on the eastern front, survived that, and when thing were falling apart managed to get to where he would be captured by Americans, did the denazification thing, got to the U.S… just in time to get drafted, handed a rifle, and sent to go fight Chinese in Korea. After that he got advanced degrees in nuclear physics on the theory that with that kind of knowledge in his head he would never again be handed a rifle and sent to another really cold place to get shot at by more communists.
He said when he looked back on the political stuff he bought into back when he was a kid in Germany he just couldn’t believe he was that dumb, but when everybody is telling you the same thing, you can believe the most crazy stuff.</b.
AesopFan, “My personal belief is that no one is accountable for the acts of their progenitors of any generation” is an excellent summary of Ezekiel chapter 18.
To quote one verse, “The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
To me that excludes any racism or bigotry whatsoever! Background doesn’t matter; beliefs and actions do.
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Went to bed last night and it was October, got up this morning and it was November. Time Travel is Real!
Already read the news on various online sites, nothing new. Thank God.
Well this then. The Cornel Student is Asian, which is a surprise.
Shirehome:
China antisemitism is increasing online and, gee, gets acted out in the “real world” of the university.
https://www.wsj.com/world/china/antisemitic-comments-increase-across-chinese-social-media-6e73cf5c
Duck Duck Go search of “china antisemitism” gave links to recent stories.
There was a comment the other day about the Israel-Hamashite war and Behnan Ben Taleblu’s work at The Foundation for Defense of Democracy (FDD).
Yesterday the podcast Generation Jihad Episode 111 had a segment interviewing Benjamin Ben Taleblu. The episode is 41 minutes total and the current focus is the Israel-Hamashite war.
On podcasts about the war; The Telegraph’s podcast Battle Lines turns out to be slanted in favor of the terrorists, aka, poor suffering Gazamites. Pretty much went like this:
33 years in our house and we’ve only had one trick-or-treater ever. There’s a street in town where thousands of trick-or-treaters flock to every Halloween, which is impressive as our county population is less than 38,000. The police close the street off to traffic, it’s so chaotic. The houses outdo themselves and each other each year, even building facades on the front of their homes for their decorations. The people hand out full-size candy bars. People take up collections to help the residents of the street finance the cost. It’s a crazy time.
I wanted to stand at the end of the street, dressed as an IRS agent and confiscate 20% of everyone’s candy, but I really didn’t want to get shot, so I didn’t. It would be funny, though.
I get that antisemitism is often sort of hard coded into ethnic Muslims, but its evident metastasis into non-Muslim Asians with no significant historic Judeo-Christian connection is deeply recondite to me. But to be fair I really don’t understand antisemitism in the modern age at all.
Something nice for Neo:
https://youtu.be/1U98h__sta4?si=V0jYFUUSHMe9gM0s
3 siblings from Johannesburg cover “How Deep Is Your Love?”
Windbag, I like the way you think! 🙂
Ruth, I can’t say I’ve ever seen someone dance in swim fins before.
The accused Cornell student’s father is reported by the Daily Mail to be “a professor in a university in China,” so he may be plugged into the wave of Jew-hatred online in China referenced in that WSJ article. The parents say their son is depressed and sometimes emotionally unstable.
Nonapod:
Antisemitism serves the foreign and domestic policy of Xi the CCP and Can Do! land. Can Do! land has few Jews and some Muslims (although they are perseccuted) so it could be just another manipulation of their masses by Xi.
Nonapod, if Jew-hatred is Satanic, he’s billed as an equal-opportunity influence.
Job 1:7, “The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it”
It may be useful sometimes to remember that not all human disasters are political in origin. On this day in 1755, Lisbon was struck by an earthquake of magnitude 7.7 or higher, leading to an estimated death toll of 50,000 in Portugal alone. People were killed by a tsunami surging up from the port as well as by widespread fires following the structural collapse of houses and churches; about 85% of the buildings in Lisbon were destroyed. November 1 being All Saints Day, many people were in church when the earthquake struck around 9:40 a.m. One positive outcome of the disaster was the beginning of the modern science of seismology and earthquake engineering.
As usual, Robert Spencer minces no words in describing Islamic Jihadists as “weak men” who “lack of real masculinity” and “often also wish to deny and suppress their homosexual inclinations”.
‘Who could have expected such a harsh and cruel reaction by Israel! Gaza has been living under a blockade (forever)!’
That must be why all other Arab states refuse immigration to Palestinians.
I was sad to see a piece in the Tucson newspaper today equating both sides in this war. Tucson, of course ios deep blue. The writer asserts that Israel has to move.
Does the Tucson piece say to where Israelis should move, Mike K?
PA+Cat:
David Bentley Hart touched upon the Great Lisbon Earthquake and the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami and the greater question of God, theodicy:
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2005/03/tsunami-and-theodicy
Hart’s book The Doors of the Sea is still applicable as 10/7/2023 reminds us of profound evil in God’s world.
https://www.amazon.com/Doors-Sea-Where-Was-Tsunami/dp/0802866867
om:
I had to read (years ago now) both Voltaire’s poem on the Lisbon earthquake (alongside Candide) as well as Kant’s attempt to give a natural explanation of the earthquake. He thought it was caused by the dislocation of a large cave beneath the earth filled with hot gases. Kant’s theory was wide of the mark, but it did mark the beginning of scientific seismology.
And I do remember the Hart article; thanks for the reminder.
Playing the victim card…
…(but of course)…
“Hamas official promises: ‘We’ll repeat Oct. 7 massacre until Israel is annihilated’ ;
” ‘We are victims – everything we do is justified,’ Hamas spokesperson claims.”
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379525
H/T Powerline blog.
As more “victims” and their friends, supporters and enablers…are coming out of the woodwork as we speak!
(Yep, it’s practically a GLOBAL VICTIM CONVENTION!!)
“Signs That Iran Will Open A Front Against Israel From The Syrian Golan Heights”—
https://www.memri.org/reports/signs-iran-will-open-front-against-israel-syrian-golan-heights
+ Bonus:
“High street under attack: Pro-Palestine vandals smash windows of Starbucks and release stick insects and mice inside four McDonald’s in spree of attacks in Yorkshire and Birmingham after calls for branches to be targeted over ‘support for Israel’ “—
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697291/pro-Palestine-vandals-smash-Starbucks-window-Yorkshire.html
Looks like the civilized world (so-called) will have to make a choice.
“Biden” ‘s already made “his”, certainly…but the Master of Coverup and King of Optics is scrambling mightily trying to hide that choice…lest anyone find out—Find out TOO SOON, that is—what should have been obvious from Day 1.
I have always thought it strange when ” Christians ” are anti Jew. Jesus was a Jew. The Apostles were Jews. Most of the Biblical writers were Jews. Luke, a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul, being a probable Greco-Roman exception, which you can see as he seems to be writing to another non Jew and explaining ” Jewish” things to an outsider.
My long suspicion is that those ” Christians” who are anti Jew tend to be the type that do not get involved in PERSONAL Bible study. I am sure there are exceptions.
To be sure, the current—massive and multi-dimensional—“Biden”-engineered Global crises may well have come at “the right time”…
“Joe Biden received $40K in ‘laundered China money’ from brother in 2017, Comer says;
“Rep James Comer says James Biden paid Joe Biden $40K as a ‘loan repayment’ after receiving funds from Hunter Biden linked to China’s CEFC”—
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-biden-received-40k-in-laundered-china-money-from-brother-in-2017-comer-says
OTOH, don’t worry ’bout a thing: the Corruption-Fighter-in-Chief is fast and furiously proving to ALL OF US “his” Anti-Corruption prowess!!
“Top Dem committee accepted thousands from Menendez the same day feds unsealed his bribery charges”—
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/top-dem-committee-accepted-thousands-from-menendez-same-day-feds-unsealed-his-bribery-indictment
You know that something’s amiss when the FBI admits that it might just have to take time off from targeting school parents.
“Hamas Greatest Terror Threat To The West Since Islamic State, Warns FBI Director”—
https://blazingcatfur.ca/2023/11/01/hamas-greatest-terror-threat-to-the-west-since-islamic-state-warns-fbi-director/
But lest one get the wrong impression, “Biden” remains undeterred WRT pursuing “his” REAL PRIORITIES!
“U.S. Migrant Crisis: 5,000 March Toward The Border In The BIGGEST Caravan Of Undocumented Immigrants In More Than A Year”—
https://blazingcatfur.ca/2023/11/01/u-s-migrant-crisis-5000-march-toward-the-border-in-the-biggest-caravan-of-undocumented-immigrants-in-more-than-a-year/
Fortunately, it looks like KJP will continue to lecture everyone on the dangers of Islamophobia…
Former cybersecurity employee explains how censorship of social platforms has morphed over the years.
Mike Benz, Fmr State Dept, Cyber: What ever happened to the freedom of speech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SImz_5KzIY
My long suspicion is that those ” Christians” who are anti Jew tend to be the type that do not get involved in PERSONAL Bible study. I am sure there are exceptions.
Jon baker:
One thing I’ve noticed is that Catholics, by and large, are less versed in the Bible than Protestants. If you don’t hear a Bible passage at Mass, you pretty much don’t hear it at all.
Of course, this has a history:
_______________________________________
We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue.
–Pope Gregory IX, “Canon 14, Council of Toulouse (1229)”
_______________________________________
A distinguishing feature of Protestantism was an emphasis on reading the Bible for oneself and perhaps! even interpreting it for oneself.
Anyway. I find Protestants refreshing for their knowledge of the Bible. I concur with M J R’s observation that Bible literacy in America has dropped like a rock in recent decades.
Which is a shame. It’s a deep spiritual book which once was an important part of how America was interconnected.
Returning to Jon Baker’s speculation that personal Bible study might protect from anti-Semitism — I wonder if today’s Catholics tend to anti-Semitism more than other forms of Christianity.
I doubt it. Christian anti-Semitism has a long, complex history, but I don’t think Bible study makes the difference.
The most virulent anti-Semite I’ve known personally read the Bible deeply. He considered it “spiritual food.”
I largely agree with Elon Musk’s ascertion that George Soros hates humanity (a claim I believe Musk made months ago in a series of Tweets and repeated in his recent appearance on Joe Rogan’s podcast). I would only tweak Musk’s assessment a bit, adding a bit of specificity to the term “hate”. My guess is that Soros actually has a hateful contempt for the overwhelming majority of human beings, viewing people as little more than cattle in needing of herding. He likely makes exceptions for a certain cohort, people he views as special elites. And no doubt his heir is of the same line of thought.
Jon baker; huxley:
One of the most vicious Jew-haters was Martin Luther.
I was going to point that out, Neo, about Martin Luther. Culture has a lot to do with what people hate. European cultures had a very bad history of treatment of Jews, with which the actual Bible had little to do. The disdain continued unabated for a long time after the translation of the Bible into the common languages and their dissemination via the printing press.
What Christians will not find, if they read their Bibles either casually or carefully, is any exhortation to kill Jews in the name of Christ. This is a major difference from the third Middle Eastern-origin monotheist faith, Islam, which does contain exhortations to kill Jews in the name of Allah.
People do tend to misread the Bible or misstate what it says to suit their own purposes. A couple of years ago I endured a sermon by a Protestant preacher who said he’d always thought Jesus was “white.” He cannot possibly have read the Bible if he thought Jesus was northern European like all the Lutherans he knew in the Upper Midwest.
Kate:
In Luther’s case, it was apparently personal – which, strangely enough, has parallels with Mohammed. Both of them started out by being somewhat kind to the Jews, assuming the Jews would convert as a result of their preaching. When that didn’t happen, they turned on the Jews very viciously. It took different forms, because Mohammed was writing scripture for Islam and Luther wasn’t writing scripture. And it is my impression that Luther’s very extreme anti-Semitism was not the norm for Christian clerics of the time, although there certainly was plenty of Christian anti-Semitism.
Interesting, Neo. Not being myself Lutheran, I don’t know a great deal about Luther’s history, other than the obvious Reformation topics. I looked for when Jews were expelled from Europe, and found an extensive list of when Jews were expelled from all over. They were thrown out of England from 1290 until 1655. Pogroms and expulsions throughout Europe were contemporary to Luther’s time as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews
Since we’re delving deep into the evil men do, I’ll play devil’s advocate — or perhaps the devil himself — by bringing up the uncomfortable subject of the Hebrews’ genocidal war against the Canaanites and, later, against the Amalikites. These were ordained by God himself. And they were historical events, not allegorical tales.
I find these and other genocidal acts by the Hebrews hard to reconcile with my Catholic-Christian faith. Jews find it hard also. I have read a lot, and I mean a lot, of theological/philosophical works addressing this problem. I have yet to be satisfied with the explanations given. If I think too much on the subject, my ongoing simmering crisis of faith only intensifies.
Remember, Samuel said to Saul: “And He sent you on a mission, saying, `Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.'”
Every man, woman, and child. All their animals.
Same-same for the Canaanites.
Imagine what that entailed.
Not allegorical stories. But rather: Historical events.
I hope I have not awakened the Balrog with my preceding comments.
Yes indeed and that influenced german policy initially he was well disposed
As mass murderers go, Saul was very reluctant and conflicted.
God punished him for that.
I’ve always felt sorry for Saul A tragic figure. David, on the other hand, was morally and ethically quite compromised. Not a pleasant fellow, really.
The undeniable extremes of evil and viciousness that Muslims and Christians have visited upon Jews is prefigured, in the Bible, by the destruction of the Canaanites and Amalilikites. Ot snyone, for that matter, who stood in the path of the Hebrews in their quest to fulfill their destiny.
Did God really order them to commit genocide? Or was that their faulty interpretation of God’s will? I believe — hope — it was the latter.
Just wanted to provide a cautionary note to what seems like some self-congratulatory attitudes in this thread.
IrishOtter49, as I recall, God’s command to destroy the Canaanites was because of their debased and evil religious practice which involved child sacrifice. I’m not sure about the Amalekites. Child sacrifice was not unusual among the tribes in the fertile crescent and north Africa.
I got detoured reading about the readmission of Jews to England under Oliver Cromwell in 1655. He believed that, England having established the correct Protestant religion, it was the best possible place to convert Jews. A contingent of Jews, led by Menasseh ben Israel, petitioned for admission as a refuge from growing pogroms in Europe. Cromwell assented, and Jews were granted freedom of worship, the right to have synagogues, and a burial ground in London. There was some concern, after the Restoration of Charles II in 1660, that the legalization of the Jews would be reversed, but as it happened, some Jewish bankers on the Continent had helped Charles in exile, and he continued the policy. Since then, until the present day when many fanatic Muslims live in the UK, it has been one of the safer places for Jews to live.
https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/all/the-strange-tale-of-oliver-cromwell’s-unlikely-partnership-with-a-jew-1qGiQ3Ovr3lA6A9Ic17ARU
The Amalekites, according to the Biblical account, instead of attacking the Israelite armed contingent, attacked the rear of the Israelite column, killing the stragglers who could not keep pace: the old, the very young, the women and the lame.
This was considered “not cricket” by the Almighty (apparently an avid cricket fan).
Amalek found out—the hard way—that it’s never a good idea to play “not cricket” against God’s people(TM).
It’s a lesson that some constantly have to learn.
(Not to worry, though. God’s people(TM) also have their own lessons to learn. Again. And again. And again. And again….)
IrishOtter:
First of all, the entire world did that sort of thing back then. That was thousands of years ago. Why would the Israelites be uniquely guilty, if in fact the story is even true?
And do you know why the Amelekites were considered enemies? Do you think the Israelites just went in and slaughtered a bunch of peaceful people for no reason? If you’re into this Biblical narrative, here’s what it says:
What’s more, no one seems to know whether the Amalekites even existed (no non-Biblical mention of them has ever been found) or whether they are merely symbolic. At any rate, Jews haven’t been wiping out Amalekites for many thousands of years (if indeed they ever did), and they have until now shown remarkable restraint against their murderous neighbors who would like to destroy them.
According to legend, Haman—“the Agagite”—of Book-of-Esther fame, was a descendant of Agag, the Amalekite King whom Saul was supposed to have slain but who was slain, instead, by Samuel (see episode quoted directly above).
Hence Haman’s particular (and ultimately fatal) inclination…
(The Biblical weigh-in on the good ole nature-nurture debate….)
neo (and the rest):
I know all that. Did you think for moment that I did not know?
Your statements constitute a form of denial. You’re rationalizing things that cannot and should not be rationalized.
And neo, it doesn’t really matter whether or not these events were historical, anymore than it mattered whether not Muhammed’s orders concerning the killing of infidels were real; whether or not Muhammed even existed.
Some of you here have quoted the Quran’s violent passages to make your points. Well, in playing devil’s advocate, I’ve quoted the Bible.
The ultimate point is this: many honest and reputable theologians, as well as those who think on these matters, are troubled by the aspect of God that sanctions genocide. They struggle with it. As do I.
It is demeaning to yourselves to say that these genocidal acts took place in a different time, if they took place at all, and the people committing genocide were merely acting in accordance with the standards of their times. Or that the Canaanites deserved what they got because t4hey sacrificed children and otherwise behave in ways that were anathema to the Hebrews. Never again mean never again, even in reverse, no less in than past than now. A thousand years from now,, people may say that Hamas was merely acting in accordance with their values. That’s an historicist argument and it’s bullshit. Shame on you for making it.
But he played a mean harp…not to mention his poetic talents…
(Actually, the Almighty would agree with you, at least partially; and that’s the reason why according to the Biblical account, David was not permitted to build the Holy Temple; THAT was built by his more peaceful, less impetuous, less sinning son, the wise king Solomon—though for a supposedly wise fellow, he had his share of weaknesses, too—ah the humanity….. Anyway, sounds like it might make a decent movie…)
Kate:
But Middle Easterners and Jews are white, in the way the word is traditionally used. So Jesus probably was, as well. When the word is used by the left, racial categories change and are not based on the old divisions. Instead, people defined as oppressed are “people of color.” So you get the weirdness of the white Palestinians being defined as “brown” whereas their genetically similar Israelis – and also very black Israelis – are defined as “white.” Being white doesn’t mean you are Scandinavian.
Even Ashkenazi Jews are genetically similar to Palestinians, and mizrahi Jews are even more similar.
IrishOtter:
It certainly sounded like you didn’t know, for example, that the events might not have occurred.
Hamas is an anomaly in these times, by the way, so that particular analogy to the Israelites and Amelekites doesn’t wash.
I am not a Biblical literalist and I don’t see your point. The Jews haven’t been genocidal towards anyone for thousands of years, if they ever were. Most Jews don’t take the Bible literally either, so it’s not what’s motivating Israel. What’s motivating Israel is survival – which is actually what I think they Amelekite story in the Bible is about, although I really don’t know.
If you think the Bible not giving good counsel, that’s fine. I’m not into killing all the Amelekites either. But when people quote the Koran’s violent anti-Jewish verses, understand that the Moslems and Hamas are quoting those same verses themselves, as justification for what they’re doing and for war on present-day Jews all over the globe.
That is a huge difference between the meaning of those words for Moslems, versus how Jews view the Bible’s words about Amelekites. Israel is not following the Bible when it is trying to defend itself against one of the worst purposeful attacks on civilians in modern history.
Perhaps I overstated about Luke explaining Jewish things to a non Jewish intended audience, although there is a widespread thought process, though debated, that Luke was a non Jewish convert to Christianity and that his Gospel did seem to be aimed more specifically to non Jews than some of the others.
Your assumption is that God’s decisions were arbitrary.
Of course to even believe that, one must believe in God.
If one believes this, then it would seem that God should be the target of one’s ire.
BTW, many rabbis were also troubled…or perhaps, were uncomfortable might be more accurate.
Which might raise a question: Did God tell anyone else to slaughter any other specific group (and did God give a specific reason for it)?
Or was slaughtering another group merely a personal matter…?
Once again, does God even exist?
(And if God does exist, should one pay much heed to those extreme exigencies that God does seem, from time to time, to demand. E.g., the testing of Abraham…which also makes quite a few rather queasy, uncomfortable, angry, etc.)
Christians were just as enthusiastic at killing one another in the Middle Ages. The Albigensians which were a belief that was a reaction to corruption in the clergy,” were massacred and a plenary indulgence was the reward for killing them. The difference is that Islam is the only religion that has taken its violent past into the modern era. The Japanese took some aspects of their Shinto religion into violence but that has ended as far as I know.
Robert Spencer has some interesting things to say about male Muslims. Young Moslem men are the most sex starved males on earth as the Islamic treatment of women denies them a normal sex life.
the jihadi either wins and then can help himself to the property and the women of those whom he has defeated, or he loses and is killed (“martyred”), in which case he will spend eternity with the celebrated virgins of Islamic paradise. In this, the cult of jihad is much like the cult of National Socialism (that’s what “Nazi” is an abbreviation for, kids): it’s an idolatry and caricature of masculinity that appeals in particular to weak men.
Regarding my earlier statement. The passage I was thinking about specially that seemed to be explaining Jewish customs to non Jews ( or maybe less strict Jews ? ) was actually in Mark chapter 7. Even so, Luke may very well be the only non Jewish New Testament writer, which was my point about I have never understood anti Jew Christians.
Perhaps the slaughter of the Amalekites was necessary for the preservation of the Jews, and therefore Jesus, the Messiah.
Many of God’s acts are incomprehensible to humans.
Re “white,” some people, who are not White Supremacists, think it means having northern European ancestry. But many people of northern European ancestry are actually tan, brown, pink or red, depending on how much sunshine they get.
RE: Reasons for Government UFO Secrecy– continued
It makes sense that one of the main reasons that the government/DOD is so adamant about keeping whatever they know about UFOs secret, and has been and is making all sorts of efforts to tamp down citizen interest in this subject, is because any actual broad discussion and examination of this subject inevitably brings with it the realization that–for all of the trillions of dollars we have poured into our military budgets over the years, despite all of the fancy high tech hardware we have invested in, and all of the training that millions of our soldiers have undergone–UFOs go wherever they want to go, and do whatever they want to do with impunity, and our government and our military are absolutely powerless to prevent these continuous violations of our airspace—especially “restricted” airspace, of our oceans, of an unknown number of our citizens, and of our sovereignty.
It certainly appears that our “authorities,” militaries, and leaders are powerless, humanity as a whole is powerless, in the face of the reality of the technological superiority of UFOs, and who or whatever is behind them, and our leaders and our militaries don’t want to advertise it, or to have to admit it.
ToI, (no byline), “Report: Biden indicated to Netanyahu he believes his days in office are numbered”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-biden-told-netanyahu-he-believes-his-days-in-office-are-numbered/
These people never stop.
are they really, see the islamic emirate of raqqua or afghanistan, in terms of large states saudi arabia, until recently did not have high regards for jews or women or nonconformist behaviors, the uae is a little ahead,
I don’t trust gantz or bennett, any more than I can throw them, many of these policies like the mass ingress of workers from gaza, game under their aegis,
I’m guessing that Neo doesn’t much care for the VDare website, but she may like this from John Derbyshire:
https://vdare.com/radio-derb/regulation-boring-but-important-two-cheers-for-mr-speaker-and-midwit-metaphysics-etc
so the tactics of the nukba the elite Hamas force, much like the einzatzgruppen, isn’t accidental in 2017, they were embedded in the islamic state,
https://www.timesofisrael.com/elite-hamas-fighters-defecting-to-islamic-state/
in acres of newsprint since october 7th this has been left out,
why the sheep dogs are blind,
https://twitter.com/paulsperry_/status/1719535351478255900
Neo, the errant preacher I listened to seemed very much to think of “white” as “northern European.” In fact, many Americans of decades gone by did, too; as waves of Italians, Greeks, Central Europeans, and Jews came in, they were definitely not treated as part of the “white” majority, at least for a generation or two. This particular preacher’s biases were so bad that he probably meant to imply that Jesus was African, i.e, “black,” which is a preposterous idea some people hold. It was a Black Lives Matter sort of sermon. I was only there because we were visiting friends, and we didn’t walk out out of consideration for our friends. We won’t go back.
The salient point about these religious arguments is that ancient battles and massacres are not something carried forward as mandates into the modern age, except for Muslims. Islam teaches that Muhammad’s reported massacre of Jewish tribes in Arabia fourteen centuries ago is an activity that is commanded for Muslims for all time. Jews are not commanded to kill Canaanites or Amalekites today, assuming they could find any.
the Khaybar example, another temporary truce is a hudna like Hudabiya,
conversely, they make the loss by Arabs in 48, the Catastrophe, or Nakbah,
I don’t think first century jews called the losses of Masada and Bar Kochba, a catastrophe, although it probably was,
Impressive:
Mike Johnson doubles down on Israel-only aid package, urges Senate GOP to get on board
You’re going to pass an Israel-only bill, Mitch, and you’re going to like it!
I am not a Biblical literalist and I don’t see [IrishOtter49’s] point. The Jews haven’t been genocidal towards anyone for thousands of years, if they ever were. Most Jews don’t take the Bible literally either, so it’s not what’s motivating Israel.
–neo
I’m not a Bible literalist either. I’m not crazy about what happened to the Canaanites (I’ve forgotten about the Amelekites, if ever I knew), but I do note the important difference:
Long ago we are told God told the Jews to do that in one particular instance in one particular region. This has not been repeated in the past couple thousand years.
It wasn’t a blank check for the Jews to subjugate all religions in perpetuity until they dominate the entire world as with Muslims. Furthermore, as we know, for Muslims violence is not a problem.
___________________________
The Great Prophecy*
[48:28] He is the One who sent His messenger with the
guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over
all other religions. GOD suffices as a witness.*
*48:28 This important prophecy informs us that Submission
will inevitably dominate the whole world.
–Quran
Well…I was going to stick my toe in the “Luther the anti-Semite” shallow end of the pool…but boy that escalated quickly! That’s what I get for going to wait for the ambulance with my fallen neighbour…she’s up & relatively ok…thanks for asking.
Anyway…I remember an old church history professor telling us that Luther was theologically steeped in the prevailing Roman Catholic mindset of the Holy Roman Christendom church that misread Matthew 27:25 “Let his (Christ’s) blood be upon us and our children!” as a perpetual “curse” until the Jews repented and recognised Jesus as the Messiah. Evidently because Jews of his day persisted in being Jewish…Luther got viscerally riled up & let fly, which was his wont against anyone he perceived as rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ. So he railed against them with pretty vile invective. His argument was first theological but for him since his theology nearly cost him his life it went personal rapidly.
Neo’s comparison with Mohammed is mighty close to the mark…with the caveat that Luther the theologian made no pretence of speaking for God in this instance but extrapolating outward against any & all who rejected the good news, while Mohammed was laying down law for all time…hence the intractable nature of Islamic Jew-hatred.
Most reputable scholars in the intervening years, & certainly any Lutherans who want to be taken seriously (I speak for myself here), reject that Jew-hatred fully. We also are careful with Genesis 12:3 one of Abraham’s blessings from Yahweh, “I will bless those who bless you & any who curse you I will curse.” That is not a demand that for a nation to be blessed by God we must uncritically “bless” Israel. There are Christians who argue that…I would say they’re mistaken.
Back to Luther…my history professors all argued that Luther, as dedicated a Romans & Pauline scholar as he was, didn’t take the full weight of Roman 9, 10, & 11 into account where Paul laments the rejection of Jesus as Messiah by the very people who should have seen it clearly. But Paul lives in hope that the promises that belonged to the Jews from eternity to eternity, would eventually include them again.
That’s Paul’s (and the whole New Testament’s) hope because from first page to last, the Bible with which most of us have some passing acquaintance (the Canonical 66 books) details God’s intent to enjoy fellowship with the entirety of Creation…all that God has made. We’re designed to enjoy a great wedding feast at the end of the ages that even the Old Testament points toward with exciting clarity & anticipation.
How’s that? It seems I got long-winded again…I’m told I do that sometimes. 😉
he went way over the top around 1536, he was sympathetic before under previous influences and he influenced figures like john frederick,
the proper way to look at it, were the pharisees and the saducees were a regretable but necessary vehicle in the fullfillment of the covenant, as laid out in Isiah, 700 hundred years before,
Given the time and location, I think of Jesus as a scruffy looking Middle Easterner.
I have seen a Prius with a What Would Jesus Drive? bumper sticker. Implying that he would have a small, probably electric car. Jesus was a carpenter, like his Dad. I think it is safe to say that, given job requirements, and the state of roads then, that Jesus would drive a Dooley 4X4 crew cab F-350. Wood and disciples take up space!
“Wood and disciples take up space!”
That actually made me laugh! Well done!
I once attended a series of evening lectures given by a Duke Divinity OT scholar (Presbyterian, back when they were conservative). According to him, “be this upon us and upon our children!” was normally meant to be to the third generation or so, never forever and ever. That curse, even if invited by the mob that night, didn’t extend to all their people, nor to all their people’s descendants forever.
Ditto!
“That curse, even if invited by the mob that night, didn’t extend to all their people, nor to all their people’s descendants forever.”
Kate…you are 100% correct. BUT…what should be understood prima facie in the text & what some claim is in the text, are…well…not always the same thing. Scriptural interpretation is often painted in deliberately over-broad strokes.
The whole “blame the Jews for killing Jesus” is repugnant & still pops up its ugly head throughout history.
BTW – (Presbyterian, back when they were conservative) made me chuckle as well. In Australia, most still are. So there’s that. Pax vobiscum
Now covering the open tracks of their operatives: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/white-house-says-prospects-of-netanyahu-remaining-in-office-not-under-discussion/
their lips are moving, I could name half a dozen officials who would conduct that conversation,
huxley:
Yes, one of the things about Jews is that they’re a “live and let live” religion; they don’t try to convert the world or subjugate it.
And it seems they’re hated for that too.
Catholics are a varied group. Even among Roman Catholics there is a lot of diversity and differing interpretations of scripture. I doubt there is a religious group in the U.S. more evenly divided between the political parties than Catholics currently are.
To huxley’s point, when scripture comes up in conversation I often joke with my Protestant, Baptist and Jewish friends; “I’m Catholic. We don’t read the Bible.” It’s a fun joke, but, truth be told, most Catholics I know are fairly well versed in the New Testament, especially the Gospels, and I know Catholics who are very conversant in all of the Bible. Most Catholics I know, including Priests, aren’t Bible fundamentalists. It’s a common canard I hear with historical precedent, but I know of no active movement among Roman Catholic leadership to discourage independent Bible study and interpretation. Every Priest I know personally enjoys debate, even on religious topics*.
Regarding antisemitism, I don’t see it in Catholicism outside of immigrants. I heard a lot of antisemitic statements growing up in Chicago in the ’60s and ’70s, and a fair amount was from practicing Catholics, but they were pretty much all first generation immigrants from Europe. I don’t recall anyone I knew who was born in the U.S. that was antisemitic. Antisemitism was also prevalent among the followers of Chicago’s black leaders; Reverend Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan.
This seems to correlate with what I see lately on my TV and computer screen; antisemitism in immigrant groups in the U.S., England, Australia… Yes, as with the pussy hat marches and the BLM protests; there are a lot of homegrown morons marching and protesting in support, but I think a lot of young people do this out of a sense of “allyship” for friends whom they believe are marginalized.
Thinking back to my childhood, it seems antisemitism was more common among eastern European immigrants than those from the Mediterranean, or West. For example; I don’t recall Irish or Italians seeming to have any concern about Jews. But that could just be the random sample of people I encountered growing up. I was always very pro-Judaism and had a lot of Jewish heroes (Groucho Marx among them), so it was never a topic I introduced into conversation, but, unfortunately, it was not rare to hear someone say something disparaging about “Jews.” I remember being very saddened when I went to my first bathroom stall in College. I was glad to be out of the working class environment I had been raised in, and looked forward to interacting with more enlightened people at University. That stall had some of the worst antisemitic and racist graffiti I had ever seen. It was very disappointing, and unfortunately, the norm for the rest of the campus.
There is a common, odd trait that many people feel the need to comment on someone being Jewish. For example, if discussing “Indiana Jones” “Oh, did you know Harrison Ford is Jewish?” Whereas, if “Mission Impossible” comes up no one ever says, “Oh, did you know Tom Cruise was raised Catholic?” I’m not sure why that is, but it seems to only happen when someone is Jewish. Funny thing is, I think many Jews do the same thing when discussing famous people.
*I’ve found a lot of Americans who do not attend church assume there are a lot of political edicts issued by clergy. That is certainly not the case in any Catholic church I have attended. Even on the issue of abortion. The topic often appears in sermons leading up to major elections, but I’ve never heard a Priest name a political party and I’ve never, ever heard a Priest connect practicing faith properly with voting a certain way. There will often be a collective, sincere prayer offered for wisdom and guidance for our political leaders, but that’s about as specific as things get. I have heard many good sermons on moral decay, the effects of social media on people, especially youth, etc… But even then the emphasis is on individuals doing the right thing and parents getting involved in their children’s lives; not instructing parishioners to vote for certain policies or politicians likely to enact certain laws.
In re the Israel-Jews-Christians discussion:
My personal belief is that no one is accountable for the acts of their progenitors of any generation.
If they willingly continue in the same pathway to do evil, that is on their own heads.
If parents (or grandparents or others with authority) teach their children to do evil, the sin is on the heads of the parents.
Palestinian children today, and perhaps Muslims in general (and, really, everyone), are going to be a complex case, but I suspect that God can separate the willing from the duped.
Some remarks on the subject of religious denominations and the Jews from people directly concerned:
https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2023/10/catholics-against-anti-semitism
Outstanding essay by Mary Eberstadt.
Many evangelical and mainstream protestant churches support Israel and the Jewish people, but it’s more of a mixed bag, not surprisingly.
I didn’t find any statements BY evangelical leaders, but here are some from the Jewish perspective.
https://www.deseret.com/2023/10/11/23911456/israel-hamas-american-christians-jews-evangelicals
“Faithful Christians have long been vocal in their support of Israel, both culturally and politically” By Naomi Schaefer Riley Oct 11, 2023
https://www.newsrael.com/posts/9vp0ako21kg
“The support of members of Congress for Israel does not happen only because of their personal faith, it takes place in a space where millions of Christians define to their members of Congress the importance of supporting Israel.” by Kobby Barda Nov 1, 2023
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/01/20/why-do-evangelical-christians-support-israel/
“Because they have a favorable opinion of Jews” by DAVID BERNSTEIN | 1.20.2020
Bernstein has several posts up now about the war; click on his byline in the post.
Short and worth quoting in full, because he dismisses some of the favorite tropes about evangelicals and Jews that are found in most media.
Rufus T. Firefly:
True, the Roman Catholic Church has given up its historical effort to be the Bible’s gatekeeper for people. And, to be sure there are Catholics well-versed in the Bible.
With a few exceptions the lay Catholics I’ve known didn’t know the Bible beyond what they heard at Mass. The exceptions were Catholics who had gone off the reservation into the Charismatic movement.
In parochial school we were mostly taught Catholic doctrine with occasional scriptural quotes. Perhaps that has changed.
An ex-Catholic friend I had met at an Episcopal Church said he had started a Bible study group while he was in Catholic seminary and the powers that be shut it down. There may be more to the story than I heard..
I didn’t notice politics or anti-Semitism with Catholics. It did seem just about all the Catholics I knew were Democrats and I saw lots of pictures of JFK and RFK.
Back then the Catholic Church was less ecumenical and more interested in asserting its position as the One True Church.
I can’t track down all the individual denominations, but a few searches turned up mostly formal statements and calls for prayers. Older posts sometimes mentioned an individual church or conference’s position on the Israel/Palestine situation in general, but you can find those yourself for any group you are interested in.
There was at least one group putting their beliefs into action.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/texas-baptist-men-provides-thousands-of-meals-in-israel.html
“TBM volunteers are working alongside an Israeli partner in a secure location. The volunteers are rotating in and out of Israel, with 20 in place on Oct. 24 and another team slated to head there in early November.
In addition to the mass-feeding volunteers, TBM provided $150,000 to transport medical professionals from the United States to help treat people affected by the war.”
This could go on any of the Israel-Hamas war threads, because it addresses somewhat the question of why so many people have bought into the Left/Islamic framing of the conflict, as well as speaking to the recognition that many have had of watching the Western left go Nazi in real-time (Godwin’s Law has, of necessity, been placed on hold for the duration).
https://accordingtohoyt.com/2023/11/01/you-cant-get-there-from-here/#comment-945533
Related (Catholics)…
A remarkable testament:
“CATHOLICS AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM”
by Mary Eberstadt
https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2023/10/catholics-against-anti-semitism
H/T Powerline blog.
AesopFan, “My personal belief is that no one is accountable for the acts of their progenitors of any generation” is an excellent summary of Ezekiel chapter 18.
To quote one verse, “The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
To me that excludes any racism or bigotry whatsoever! Background doesn’t matter; beliefs and actions do.