He also does his usual “I won’t vote for Trump” rant. Weird how he can’t recognize the Democrats for what they are.
Paul in Boston:
I don’t think he’s all that naive about Democrats at this point; he just can’t stand Trump. But he also is at pains to make it clear he won’t vote for Trump because then no one can accuse him of pro-Trump partisanship when he states his opinion about things like the trial. So it’s a tactical move, as well.
At this point its almost obligatory for anyone saying anything in favour of Trump to first denounce him before proceeding. Its a sad state of affairs.
Mike Plaiss, the answer to the charge that trying to help young American black children to read and write is “evaded racism” is to point out that on average black children in America raised by immigrant parents from Africa or the Caribbean do just fine in school. The problems in lower-income African-American groups are cultural, not racial.
The guy lied, repeatedly. He lied about the sqare footage of his penthouse, inflating it by a factor of 200%, and then tried to argue that square footage is subjective. He lied about the number of houses he had been permitted to develop, overstating by an order of magnitude. He lied about whether he had applied a “brand premium” to the value of his golf/country clubs. He lied about whether his NY holdings were rent-controlled. And that’s before you even get to the soft valuation decisions where reasonable minds can differ.
So, yes, Letisha James is a disgrace. This action would never be brought against anyone other than Donald Trump. It’s clearly political retaliation. It is destructive to the justice system and the whole concept of equal justice. Dershowitz is absolutely correct.
At the core of the matter, though, there is a distinction between defending someone legally and defending someone personally or politically. I think this goes to Paul in Boston’s point about Dershowitz. Dershowitz is a criminal defense lawyer. He’s very comfortable with the concept of defending somone legally without endorsing their underlying behavior. He is very comfortable with the distinction between a bad act and a crime. Just because Letisha James is wrong (and she surely is), that doesn’t mean that Trump is right.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with “recognizing Democrats for who they are.” Democrats are who they are. If we want to beat them, we need to give people an alternative who isn’t a serial liar and a scoundrel. The past three election cycles have shown us that there are a significant chunk of voters who would prefer Democrats “as they are” over Trump and his imitators. If, after eight years of Trump on the public stage you still think those people can be bullied or talked out of that position, I have a bridge to sell you.
Having a trial after the verdict seems to be an act of just rubbing the nose in it, but this is our new legal system under socialist.
well he lives in massachusetts and dc, there are no viable choices there, one might consider it a touch of virtue signaling, this is how putin seized yukos from
khodokorsky, (funny how browder laughed, until they came for him,
As Trump points out, every contract contained a “buyer beware” or “worthless” clause telling prospective lenders that the valuations contained were only estimates and that lenders and buyers would have to do their own valuations.
_______
As Mar-a-Lago is a National Historic Landmark the main building can’t be altered, but that doesn’t prohibit a wealthy sheik or oligarch or hotel corporation or foundation from buying the complex, and they would pay far more than 18 million.
_______
Some chatter on line about why a judge is deciding everything without a jury. It may be because Trump’s lawyers figured he would lose any NYC trial and an appeal based on bias could be more easily made against a judge, rather than against a jury.
_______
Reading about the eccentricities and quirks of Judge Engoron, I wonder if he isn’t narcissistic himself. I don’t say that as real diagnosis or as an attempt to single him out. It’s surprising if people in politics aren’t, or don’t appear to be narcissistic. It’s more that they live in a bubble of unchallenged self-regard. It may be a result of personal psychology, but also of political loyalties or of the position they hold.
Engoron has been a long-time Democrat and party donor.
as trumps atty explained under section 1512, he’s not entitlled to a jury trial
Concerned Conservative™ points out OMB, but says the process and the trial is ichy.
CC™ laments that if only Republicans hadn’t elected the Great Orange Whale ……, but actually, Democrats will do the same thing from now on to who ever.
Rubicon thing, you know
Bauxite said: “He lied about the sqare footage of his penthouse, inflating it by a factor of 200%, and then tried to argue that square footage is subjective.”
==========
How do you know that 200% number? Did you calculate the square footage yourself, or are you taking someone else’s word for it?
Yes, square footage is a subjective number because two different people can come up with two different amounts.
I am an architect and an engineer and have calculated building square footages many thousands of times over the last half century (twice just today and it is only 10:15am) and consider myself an expert.
Bring verifiable proof of your claim or shut it.
What Ghostsniper said; Bring it or Shut it.
Bauxite, and others like him who really, really dislike Trump, are inclined to accept any accusation against him at face value. The accusation, and the details of it, must be true, because it’s Trump.
I prefer to look at each accusation to see if it’s true. In this case, where no one at all claims to have been defrauded or not to have been repaid the loans, the accusations are foolish to begin with, and the prosecutor’s property valuations are no more valid than Trump’s. One can dislike Trump and/or support another candidate while still saying that this political prosecution is bogus from start to finish.
In 2015 when Trump was running for president, he claimed his net worth was $10 billion. Many times, more than seven.
Forbes and others estimated it at closer to $2-3 billion. Detractors of the president claimed it was less than $1 billion.
By this standard, the American people were defrauded. What should be the penalty? Prison. His companies stripped from him? Put him in the stocks?
What’s the difference between this and what is happening to him now. This is beyond an insult and travesty to President Trump. This is a distortion as to make the legal system merely a tool to punish anyone for anything deemed objectionable.
Old joke, in constitutional republics they prosecute crimes, in banana republics they prosecute men. Those New York democrats are actually banana republicans.
Kate – I am not “inclined to accept any accusations against Trump at face value.” I look at the facts and the nature of the accusation.
When your penthouse is 10k square feet, and you represent it as 30k square feet, that’s not a leftist conspiracy. When the Scottish government gave you permission to build 500 houses, and you list on the disclosure that they permitted 2000, that’s not Letisha James’ fault. And on the square footage, Trump didn’t argue that his penthouse was actually 30k square feet or that he hadn’t represented that it was 30k square feet, he argued that determining square footage is a “subjective process that can lead to lead to different results.”
Some people around here seem to think that “TDS” is some kind of magic incantation that makes facts go away. It isn’t. It’s a rationalization that gives Trumpers intellectual permission to ignore the inconvenient facts.
The defenses of Trump are starting to sound like the defenses of the socialist Rep who pulled the fire alarm the other day – i.e., “Our guy is innocent because . . . Republicans are bad.” And down, down we go.
Speaking of hear no evil, see no evil, from the liked WSJ editorial:
Yet Mr. Trump is right that Ms. James is a partisan Democrat who campaigned on going after him. The night she won the AG’s race in November 2018, she proclaimed: “I will be shining a bright light into every dark corner of his real estate dealings.” This is an abuse of prosecutorial power, targeting a person and then hunting for something to charge him with.
There is also cause to wonder about Judge Engoron’s sweeping judgment when there are no clear victims. The judge’s pretrial ruling last week would essentially strip Mr. Trump of control over assets in New York, including Trump Tower. Ms. James wants to ban him from doing business in New York. It’s hard to believe anyone not named Trump, and not so loathed by Democrats, would be facing such a sanction.
I meant “linked” WSJ editorial.
Kate – You must have missed this part of my prior comment:
“Letisha James is a disgrace. This action would never be brought against anyone other than Donald Trump. It’s clearly political retaliation. It is destructive to the justice system and the whole concept of equal justice. Dershowitz is absolutely correct.”
Other than that, sure, I’m full of “hear no evil, see no evil.”
This is not a “binary choice.” Just because James and the judge are wrong doesn’t mean that Trump is right. I struggle to understand why that is such a difficult concept.
CC™ is getting roasted so he pulled the fire alarm. Sad.
CC™ can’t conceive that the same process used against his Great Orange Whale can and will be used against any and all Republicans. But CC™ can’t acknowledge that, OMB!
Basically, would I defend Trump because he is a victim of injustice? Absolutely! Would I defend Trump’s personal or business behaviors? No thanks. Would I make him the leader of the GOP and the public face of right-of-center Americans? Again, hard pass. Am I willing to kiss away the White House for another four years because of Trump is the victim of lawfare? No way.
And, man, I’m getting tired of the whole “they’ll do this to anyone” routine. Democrats wouldn’t have even a fraction of the raw material to exploit against any of the other contenders. (Maybe pick someone who didn’t lie his rear end off in business disclosures, doesn’t jerk around with federal prosecutors when they ask for classified material to be returned, doesn’t put himself in a position where he has to pay off multiple porn stars, doesn’t burn most of his former employees and generally doesn’t behave like a spoiled teenager. It’s not that hard, really.)
Bauxite, so defend Trump on a thread about the injustice of this political prosecution, and criticize him to your heart’s content when the topic is whether he ought to be the Republican nominee.
They have in fact thrown people in jail, often for long terms, for doing nothing much at all on Jan. 6, 2021, including some people who weren’t even there. These people were not braggart NYC real estate investors. Thinking that Trump is uniquely vulnerable and “they” can’t nail other people is quite naive.
they did it to mcdonnell, to delay, to conrad black, to governor perry, to ted stevens, you want me to continue rattling names off
before perkins and coie funded the steele dossier, it commandeered the ethics complaint possible, which was only necessary in the first place, because the fbi had shepherded the fraudulent stevens indictment,
CC™ is tired of other people actually noticing the Democrat-Left behaviour.
Inconvenient, to CC™ that behaviour only can be done to The Great Orange Whale, to do otherwise would be beyond the pale.
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I know this isn’t an open thread, but occasionally you feel as if you’re staring pure evil straight in the face. The least one can do is point it out.
https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/10/02/evaded-racism-n581702
Dershowitz has an extensive discussion of the case on his YouTube channel which is quite interesting and also informative about the judge too.
https://www.youtube.com/live/299T3LVw5KA?si=zNWA0maBbQPhos3-
He also does his usual “I won’t vote for Trump” rant. Weird how he can’t recognize the Democrats for what they are.
Paul in Boston:
I don’t think he’s all that naive about Democrats at this point; he just can’t stand Trump. But he also is at pains to make it clear he won’t vote for Trump because then no one can accuse him of pro-Trump partisanship when he states his opinion about things like the trial. So it’s a tactical move, as well.
At this point its almost obligatory for anyone saying anything in favour of Trump to first denounce him before proceeding. Its a sad state of affairs.
Mike Plaiss, the answer to the charge that trying to help young American black children to read and write is “evaded racism” is to point out that on average black children in America raised by immigrant parents from Africa or the Caribbean do just fine in school. The problems in lower-income African-American groups are cultural, not racial.
The guy lied, repeatedly. He lied about the sqare footage of his penthouse, inflating it by a factor of 200%, and then tried to argue that square footage is subjective. He lied about the number of houses he had been permitted to develop, overstating by an order of magnitude. He lied about whether he had applied a “brand premium” to the value of his golf/country clubs. He lied about whether his NY holdings were rent-controlled. And that’s before you even get to the soft valuation decisions where reasonable minds can differ.
So, yes, Letisha James is a disgrace. This action would never be brought against anyone other than Donald Trump. It’s clearly political retaliation. It is destructive to the justice system and the whole concept of equal justice. Dershowitz is absolutely correct.
At the core of the matter, though, there is a distinction between defending someone legally and defending someone personally or politically. I think this goes to Paul in Boston’s point about Dershowitz. Dershowitz is a criminal defense lawyer. He’s very comfortable with the concept of defending somone legally without endorsing their underlying behavior. He is very comfortable with the distinction between a bad act and a crime. Just because Letisha James is wrong (and she surely is), that doesn’t mean that Trump is right.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with “recognizing Democrats for who they are.” Democrats are who they are. If we want to beat them, we need to give people an alternative who isn’t a serial liar and a scoundrel. The past three election cycles have shown us that there are a significant chunk of voters who would prefer Democrats “as they are” over Trump and his imitators. If, after eight years of Trump on the public stage you still think those people can be bullied or talked out of that position, I have a bridge to sell you.
Having a trial after the verdict seems to be an act of just rubbing the nose in it, but this is our new legal system under socialist.
well he lives in massachusetts and dc, there are no viable choices there, one might consider it a touch of virtue signaling, this is how putin seized yukos from
khodokorsky, (funny how browder laughed, until they came for him,
As Trump points out, every contract contained a “buyer beware” or “worthless” clause telling prospective lenders that the valuations contained were only estimates and that lenders and buyers would have to do their own valuations.
_______
As Mar-a-Lago is a National Historic Landmark the main building can’t be altered, but that doesn’t prohibit a wealthy sheik or oligarch or hotel corporation or foundation from buying the complex, and they would pay far more than 18 million.
_______
Some chatter on line about why a judge is deciding everything without a jury. It may be because Trump’s lawyers figured he would lose any NYC trial and an appeal based on bias could be more easily made against a judge, rather than against a jury.
_______
Reading about the eccentricities and quirks of Judge Engoron, I wonder if he isn’t narcissistic himself. I don’t say that as real diagnosis or as an attempt to single him out. It’s surprising if people in politics aren’t, or don’t appear to be narcissistic. It’s more that they live in a bubble of unchallenged self-regard. It may be a result of personal psychology, but also of political loyalties or of the position they hold.
Engoron has been a long-time Democrat and party donor.
as trumps atty explained under section 1512, he’s not entitlled to a jury trial
Concerned Conservative™ points out OMB, but says the process and the trial is ichy.
CC™ laments that if only Republicans hadn’t elected the Great Orange Whale ……, but actually, Democrats will do the same thing from now on to who ever.
Rubicon thing, you know
Bauxite said: “He lied about the sqare footage of his penthouse, inflating it by a factor of 200%, and then tried to argue that square footage is subjective.”
==========
How do you know that 200% number? Did you calculate the square footage yourself, or are you taking someone else’s word for it?
Yes, square footage is a subjective number because two different people can come up with two different amounts.
I am an architect and an engineer and have calculated building square footages many thousands of times over the last half century (twice just today and it is only 10:15am) and consider myself an expert.
Bring verifiable proof of your claim or shut it.
What Ghostsniper said; Bring it or Shut it.
Bauxite, and others like him who really, really dislike Trump, are inclined to accept any accusation against him at face value. The accusation, and the details of it, must be true, because it’s Trump.
I prefer to look at each accusation to see if it’s true. In this case, where no one at all claims to have been defrauded or not to have been repaid the loans, the accusations are foolish to begin with, and the prosecutor’s property valuations are no more valid than Trump’s. One can dislike Trump and/or support another candidate while still saying that this political prosecution is bogus from start to finish.
Hear no evil, see no evil, apparently.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-new-york-fraud-trial-arthur-engoron-letitia-james-49ef3200
Also, this one, that neo linked the other day:
https://themessenger.com/opinion/trump-organization-new-york-civil-case-donald-trump-real-estate-fraud
In 2015 when Trump was running for president, he claimed his net worth was $10 billion. Many times, more than seven.
Forbes and others estimated it at closer to $2-3 billion. Detractors of the president claimed it was less than $1 billion.
By this standard, the American people were defrauded. What should be the penalty? Prison. His companies stripped from him? Put him in the stocks?
What’s the difference between this and what is happening to him now. This is beyond an insult and travesty to President Trump. This is a distortion as to make the legal system merely a tool to punish anyone for anything deemed objectionable.
Old joke, in constitutional republics they prosecute crimes, in banana republics they prosecute men. Those New York democrats are actually banana republicans.
Kate – I am not “inclined to accept any accusations against Trump at face value.” I look at the facts and the nature of the accusation.
When your penthouse is 10k square feet, and you represent it as 30k square feet, that’s not a leftist conspiracy. When the Scottish government gave you permission to build 500 houses, and you list on the disclosure that they permitted 2000, that’s not Letisha James’ fault. And on the square footage, Trump didn’t argue that his penthouse was actually 30k square feet or that he hadn’t represented that it was 30k square feet, he argued that determining square footage is a “subjective process that can lead to lead to different results.”
Some people around here seem to think that “TDS” is some kind of magic incantation that makes facts go away. It isn’t. It’s a rationalization that gives Trumpers intellectual permission to ignore the inconvenient facts.
The defenses of Trump are starting to sound like the defenses of the socialist Rep who pulled the fire alarm the other day – i.e., “Our guy is innocent because . . . Republicans are bad.” And down, down we go.
Speaking of hear no evil, see no evil, from the liked WSJ editorial:
I meant “linked” WSJ editorial.
Kate – You must have missed this part of my prior comment:
“Letisha James is a disgrace. This action would never be brought against anyone other than Donald Trump. It’s clearly political retaliation. It is destructive to the justice system and the whole concept of equal justice. Dershowitz is absolutely correct.”
Other than that, sure, I’m full of “hear no evil, see no evil.”
This is not a “binary choice.” Just because James and the judge are wrong doesn’t mean that Trump is right. I struggle to understand why that is such a difficult concept.
CC™ is getting roasted so he pulled the fire alarm. Sad.
CC™ can’t conceive that the same process used against his Great Orange Whale can and will be used against any and all Republicans. But CC™ can’t acknowledge that, OMB!
Basically, would I defend Trump because he is a victim of injustice? Absolutely! Would I defend Trump’s personal or business behaviors? No thanks. Would I make him the leader of the GOP and the public face of right-of-center Americans? Again, hard pass. Am I willing to kiss away the White House for another four years because of Trump is the victim of lawfare? No way.
And, man, I’m getting tired of the whole “they’ll do this to anyone” routine. Democrats wouldn’t have even a fraction of the raw material to exploit against any of the other contenders. (Maybe pick someone who didn’t lie his rear end off in business disclosures, doesn’t jerk around with federal prosecutors when they ask for classified material to be returned, doesn’t put himself in a position where he has to pay off multiple porn stars, doesn’t burn most of his former employees and generally doesn’t behave like a spoiled teenager. It’s not that hard, really.)
Bauxite, so defend Trump on a thread about the injustice of this political prosecution, and criticize him to your heart’s content when the topic is whether he ought to be the Republican nominee.
They have in fact thrown people in jail, often for long terms, for doing nothing much at all on Jan. 6, 2021, including some people who weren’t even there. These people were not braggart NYC real estate investors. Thinking that Trump is uniquely vulnerable and “they” can’t nail other people is quite naive.
they did it to mcdonnell, to delay, to conrad black, to governor perry, to ted stevens, you want me to continue rattling names off
before perkins and coie funded the steele dossier, it commandeered the ethics complaint possible, which was only necessary in the first place, because the fbi had shepherded the fraudulent stevens indictment,
CC™ is tired of other people actually noticing the Democrat-Left behaviour.
Inconvenient, to CC™ that behaviour only can be done to The Great Orange Whale, to do otherwise would be beyond the pale.