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Home » Open thread 8/30/23

Open thread 8/30/23

The New Neo Posted on by

Yesterday I put up a video about The Odyssey. And then last night I happened upon this fresco from Pompeii, depicting Penelope and the newly-returned Odysseus, disguised as a beggar. It’s so extraordinary:

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Open thread 8/30/23 — 71 Comments

  2. A careful reading of the Odyssey reveals that Penelope recognized Odysseus despite his beggar disguise, but kept up the pretense of not knowing his true identity in order to further his aim of reclaiming home, hearth, and wife from the rapacious suitors. The two spar back and forth, engaging in clever repartee, with Odysseus obviously knowing that she knows, and Penelope knowing that he knows that she knows. This is presented with some of the subtlest, nuanced and charmingly comical writing you are likely to encounter in any literary work from any time and place.

  3. “i don’t think it would have taken ten years.”

    Not if he took a direct path from Troy to Ithaca. But his path was anything but direct. He dallied for lengthy spells with alluring females he met along they. As well Poseidon, whom he had offended, saw to it that his journey would be long and arduous.

    Also: IT’S A WORK OF FICTION!!!

  4. That fresco is haunting.

    Well, it’s a work of fiction, but it also is a remembrance, possibly preserved for a time by oral histories, of a campaign that happened.

  5. Report from Jax, power still on. My backyard weather station has 0.40″ rain, and given the radar, that may be all we get. Backyard sustained 15mph gusts to 25, though we have walls of trees about 75 yds away on 3 sides. Airport reporting 25kts, gusts 45kts which is about 8 miles away crow distance.

    Forecast is still for worst winds at around noon to 2pm. Winds increasing in the last half hour. Against my normal pessimism, we may get through this without too much problem. Should know by about 4pm.

    Jax TV stations reporting that there is a big staging of about 300 power crews near The Villages from all over the country. They were supposed to roll out at 9am but were held and will probably be redeployed north to Big Bend area as the damage areas are reassessed. Looks to me like the state government was well prepared. Of course, I’m sure the Ds will find something to hit DeSantis with. Maui fire…eh…no big deal as the Ds were in charge.

  6. Interviewer: Can you explain this 10-year gap in your resume?

    Oddyseus: It’s a really long story…..

  9. physicsguy–

    Good to hear that you’re okay so far and that Hurricane Idalia may not be as severe as feared– although of course the MSM are doing their best to hype the storm as “catastrophic.” Please keep us posted if you can.

  10. I dunno…
    It only took Leopold Bloom 24 hours…
    (BTW, WTH is Telemachus when ya’ really need ‘im.)

  11. My pessimism once again confirmed…power just went out..LOL.

    It is a rural area, so I bet a weak tree on a line, just like CT. JEA says 130pm restoration.

    From initial reports things are bad in the Big Bend. Hope it’s not as bad as Ian, but that area hasn’t had a storm in over 125 years.

  12. the power always goes out at the same node, across the street, behind the neighbors house, but it always takes them a week to spot it,

  13. Kate, re “it also is a remembrance, possibly preserved for a time by oral histories, of a campaign that happened.”

    More like innumerable campaigns. The Eastern Mediterranean in the Late Bronze Age was rife with conflict exacerbated by widespread political instability. This was particularly the case in Western Anatolia, where alternating periods of war and peace characterized the interactions between the Hittite Empire and its tributary kingdoms (e.g., Troy/Wilusa) and the Ahhiyawan/ Mycenaean confederation which had long dominated the western coastal regions.

    And there’s this from the great Nancy Sandars, in her landmark study of the period, The Sea Peoples: Warriors of the Ancient Mediterranean: “In the memory of Iron Age Greeks the Trojan War is a paradigm of many sieges, many quarrels, many flights and many returns. . . . Achilles and Agamemnon are not so much memories of the Mycenaean princes who had lived in palaces, in comfort and security, as of their near descendants: disinherited men whose comings home were either tragic or endlessly delayed.”

  14. Power out from a fallen tree will get fixed a lot faster than a coastal area where the whole grid is on the ground. The power company won’t start repairs until the winds drop, though, for the safety of their people, so it may be a few hours, physicsguy.

  15. WTH is Telemachus when ya’ really need ‘im.

    He stood shoulder-to-shoulder with his father in the epic’s climactic scene, when Odysseus casts aside his beggar’s garb and commences the slaughter of the Suitors.

  16. Until the late nineteenth century, scholars thought Troy itself was mythical. I have stood in the ruins looking down on the Dardanelles.

  18. Late Bronze Age scholars are in general agreement in identifying Troy as the capital of the Kingdom of Wilusa, a tributary kingdom of the Hittites and a frequent bone of contention between the mainland Greeks (Mycenaeans/Ahhiyawans/Danaans) and their Anatolian proxies on the one hand and the Hittites and their subject polities on the other. Troy VIIb was found to have been destroyed by fire sometime between 1220-1180 — a period more or less contemporaneous with the turmoil associated with the Sea Peoples migrations and the so-called Bronze Age Collapse — and is therefore a very likely candidate for being the Troy of the Trojan War tradition.

  19. Kate, yeah I really think the restoration will be much later. Winds really kicking right now. Crew can’t be up in bucket truck in these winds. The airport still reporting gusts to near 50mph.

    Funny, we are getting breaks of sun as the clouds whip by.

  23. IrishOtter49 – So was Troy destroyed by the Greeks or the Sea Peoples? I’ve always found it to be fascinating that we know so much, and yet so little about the Sea Peoples.

  24. sea people thesis was fleshed by maspero, some time after schliemann, and durand,

  25. Bronze Age Greeks were almost certainly a component of the mass movements, really a series of völkerwanderungen by numerous disparate and displaced peoples known collectively as the Sea Peoples, that transpired in the Late Bronze Age and which brought about the effective collapse of the Bronze Age “international system.” The 19th century French Egyptologist Gaston Maspero coined the term in an 1881 paper, and he based it on Egyptian accounts of the Sea Peoples invasions in the reign of Ramesses III (r. 1186-1155). As follows:

    “The peoples of the sea . . . made a conspiracy in their islands. All at once the lands were on the move, scattered in war. No country could stand before their arms. Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alashiya. They were cut off. A camp was set up in one place in Amor. They desolated its people and its land was like that which has never come into being. They were advancing on Egypt while the flame was prepared before them. Their league was Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh, united lands. They laid their hands upon the lands to the very circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: ‘Our plans will succeed.’”

  26. I think there are new ideas on who and what the Sea Peoples were. I read something about them in the last yr or two.

    cb, already in my local bird cage liner. Gen up the fear.

  31. Re: Fresco

    I know what a fresco is and this is extraordinary but I find it very difficult to “read.” It’s like a collage Rauschenberg put through various printing techniques.

    Are we viewing the restoration of a fresco centuries after a volcanic explosion?

  32. Mike Plaiss – You jogged my memory!
    We watched the series “In Search of the Trojan War” with great enthusiasm the summer I was pregnant with our son. Strangely he grew up to major in Ancient Greek at Chapel Hill and teaches The Odyssey at a prep school in MA. Oh, and his dog is “Argos.”
    A neat coincidence. Old-time granny-ladies would say I imprinted it on him!

  33. huxley:

    Pompeii is loaded with frescoes, tons of them. They were in a remarkable state of preservation because of the volcanic ash that covered them. See this.

  34. One of my favorite moments in all of the Odyssey is after Odysseus has retaken his household from the suitors. The neighborhood is in an uproar over all the killing. So Odysseus heads out with his father, Laertes, and his son, Telemachus, armed to the teeth. Odysseus and Telemachus start trash-talking each other as to which of them will kill the most neighborhood upstarts. Laertes praises the gods that he has lived to see his son and grandson contest with each other for martial glory. I just love that reaction from Laertes. It really tells what Homer’s people wanted to hold up for praise, and shows what, perhaps, our day needs more of.

  35. I am touched by the pic of the Pompeiian fresco of Odysseus and Penelope: such a realistic rendering of figures who were more than myth.

    I am also touched by the quality of the commentary here, where I am learning a lot about Troy and the Bronze Age.

    PS: “miguel cervantes,” is there anything you DON’T know? Such a generous sharing of knowledge! Thanks.

  36. You should read The Authoress of the Odyssey by Samuel Butler, for a convincing interpretation that explains the very different perspective from that of The Iliad. It is free on gutenberg.org.

  38. Rs Senate leader McConnell has had another another mini-stroke-like “glitch,” as happened four weeks ago.

    Via Zerohedge:
    McConnell Malfunctions: Senate Minority Leader Glitches Hard In Shocking Second Incident
    Tyler Durden’s Photo
    BY TYLER DURDEN
    WEDNESDAY, AUG 30, 2023 – 10:30 AM
    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell froze up on Wednesday in the second recent incident involving cognition.

    After being asked about running for reelection in 2026, the 81-year-old McConnell mumbled something, stared off into the distance, and then couldn’t recover despite an aide repeating the question. The aide then ended the event.

  39. Huxley, the online Great Books class I took through Hillsdale College used the Robert Fagles translation. The instructor thinks he is the best and although I have no experience, I found Fagles to be easy to follow.

  40. “Peleset” would be consonant with the P’lishtim (i.e., “Philistines) of the Bible, the fierce sea people who conquered and settled the SW coast of what became known as the Holy Land, and whose military prowess was the reason why the Israelites who left Egypt did NOT take the shortest path back “home” (as it were), according to the Biblical account—IOW, did NOT take the Mediterranean coastal route tracking from SW to NE but instead trekked southeastward into the interior of the Sinai Peninsula en route to entering the Holy Land from the Peninsula’s NW interior (Kadesh Barnea, about a quarter of the way down from the current diagonal Egyptian-Israeli border)
    “P’-leh’-shet” (one word) indicates “invade” or “overrun” in Hebrew—though it may, in fact, be a word borrowed from the name of that particular sea people—appearing as “P’-lah-shet” (one word) in the “Song of the Sea” (Exodus 15:1-18, the short “e” (eh) of Peleshet converting to the elongated “ah” for reasons of Biblical Hebrew grammar/vocalization.
    There is, of course, the antagonistic relationship between early post-conquest Israel and the Philistines, who caused great fear and anxiety amongst the former (Goliath being their best-known warrior), defeating the Israelites and slaying King Saul and his sons on Mt. Gilboa (which is actually pretty far to the northeast interior of the country, just west of the Jordan River and slightly SE of Mt. Tabor), as well as the complex relationship between the not-yet-king David and the Philistines, the latter ultimately being defeated by the former.
    To be sure, when Hadrian quelled the Bar Kochba revolt in 135, he razed and renamed Jerusalem, exiled its people (those who remained following the revolt of 67-70) and may have been responsible for renaming Judea “Syria Palestina”, echoing the name of its former invaders from the sea, whence the geographical term, “Palestine”.

  41. He [Odysseus] dallied for lengthy spells with alluring females he met along they.

    A year sharing a bed with Circe and seven more years with Calypso only leaves two years for the rest of The Odyssey.

  43. Correction “…the Peninsula’s NW interior” should be “…the Peninsula’s NE interior”…
    (Continued…)
    The plan to enter via the encampment of Kadesh Barne’a (which is situated in a narrow, fertile valley with a permanently flowing stream—still cultivated by the Bedouin to this day) were cancelled due to the sin of the 10 (of 12) spies sent by Moses to scout out the land.
    Thus instead of entering the Holy Land within a year or so from the SW, they stayed at the encampment for about 38 years, until traveling SE and then north, skirting the Dead Sea on the height on its east side (the “King’s Road”) and crossing the Jordan from the east, to the north of the Dead Sea, just opposite the walled city of Jericho, this after conquering the lands to the east of the Jordan and the Dead Sea (though not Edom).

  44. “…only leaves two years for the rest…”

    Does anyone know what he actually told Penelope about his trip…when things settled down?
    (Or did she have to read about it in the book…or the papers?)

  45. The Peleset/Philistines may have been Mycenaean Greeks, possibly from the Pylos region. There is strong circumstantial evidence to support this theory. Certainly they were an Aegean people. The ongoing and broadening research into the mystery of their origins increasingly points to a mainland Greece homeland.

    As for translations of Homer’s epics: Richmond Lattimore’s are still widely regarded as the best; better, IMO, than Fagles.

  46. Re “Does anyone know what he actually told Penelope about his trip…when things settled down?”

    No. But we may hope that, come what may . . . they lived happily ever after.

  47. Indeed.
    And one imagines she finally got around to knitting him that toga or sweater, or whatever it was supposed to be…as they sat around the hearth (though one might wonder for how long O. could possibly have sat around a hearth…).
    Thanks for the information on the mainland Greeks. I had always been led to believe that they were Aegean islanders, though I suppose there’s no real contradiction.
    No doubt the pottery and shards found at various levels in SW Palestine—there were said to have been five prominent Philistine cities, among them the city of Gaza—and Ancient Greece have been studied extensively…though keeping in mind that huge volcanic explosion that supposedly destroyed Atlantis, which some say occurred on Santorini (and is responsible for its shape)—and how THAT affected the peoples of the Aegean—with others claiming it occurred at precisely the time of the Exodus from Egypt. Lots of conjecture…all very fascinating…
    (By the way, is there any mention of that explosion in Greek literature?)

  49. Here is an Odyssey-inspired poem that takes my breath away. There are several translations from the original Greek. This one is my favorite.

    ITHACA
    Constantine P. Cavafy

    When you set out on your journey to Ithaca,
    pray that the road is long,
    full of adventure, full of knowledge.
    The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
    the angry Poseidon – do not fear them:
    You will never find such as these on your path,
    if your thoughts remain lofty, if a fine
    emotion touches your spirit and your body.
    The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
    the fierce Poseidon you will never encounter,
    if you do not carry them within your soul,
    if your soul does not set them up before you.

    Pray that the road is long.
    That the summer mornings are many, when,
    with such pleasure, with such joy
    you will enter ports seen for the first time;
    stop at Phoenician markets,
    and purchase fine merchandise,
    mother-of-pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
    and sensual perfumes of all kinds,
    as many sensual perfumes as you can;
    visit many Egyptian cities,
    to learn and learn from scholars.

    Always keep Ithaca in your mind.
    To arrive there is your ultimate goal.
    But do not hurry the voyage at all.
    It is better to let it last for many years;
    and to anchor at the island when you are old,
    rich with all you have gained on the way,
    not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches.

    Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage.
    Without her you would have never set out on the road.
    She has nothing more to give you.

    And if you find her poor, Ithaca has not deceived you.
    Wise as you have become, with so much experience,
    you must already have understood what Ithaca means.

  50. Re: Odyssey translations

    IrishOtter49, Mike Plaiss, Mongo, Steve Maginas:

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    When I was in high school I conned my mother into buying a set of “The Great Books.” I did read some, though not much, of them. I did find the Syntopicon feature useful for a primitive topic search in those pre-Google days.

    I eventually realized the “Great Books” translations were all old and out of copyright, so not necessarily all that good. The “Illiad” translation I read was by Samuel Butler, the 19th author of the utopia classic, “Erewhon.”

    The books also had very small print, even for a high school student, and the bindings had sharp corners which were uncomfortable to hold and could put one’s eye out in a type of unfortunate accident which I worry about overmuch.

    So, while I still cherish the vision of the Great Books, I look for more modern translations when I gin up the ambition to tackle a Great Book.

  51. RE: The Onrushing War with Russia

    A couple of hours ago Tucker Carlson was interviewed on Adam Carolla’s show *–

    By way of illustrating how the almost thoroughly corrupt MSM lies news media lies, Carlson talked about how Larry Sinclair’s claim of having gay sex with Obama and smoking dope with him was true– that everybody in Washington knew it was true–but that the MSM buried the story.

    Carlson also went on to say that the MSM does the bidding of the DOD and Intelligence agencies, and reports things that they know to be lies because they are told to do so by these agencies.

    Carlson talked about how he believes that, since no matter what they have thrown at him the deep state has been unable to stop Trump—and, in fact, the more they attack him, the stronger and more widespread his support gets–their next logical step will be to try to to assassinate him.

    Carlson also sees a deep recession in our future.

    But the most distressing/frightening thing Carlson said was that he believes the deep state wants to hold onto power so badly that to accomplish this –within the next year–they will start a hot war with Russia to justify declaring Martial Law (as a way to postpone the election?) and to hold onto that power.

    * See https://adamcarolla.com/tucker-carlson-5/

  52. Re: Cavafy / Ithaca poem

    Mrs Whatsit:

    I never got a line on Cavafy before.

    But that is fine, very fine.

  53. Snow on Pine. I would not be surprised if the Democrats had Mr. Trump assassinated. He is what Nancy Pelosi would call, ” An Enemy of the State “.

    Barry Meislin. If Goliath was one of the great warriors of the Sea People, that would mean that David did not just slay a Giant, he slew a Giant Marine, which is even more impressive!

  54. @ Snow on Pine. Tucker may have been thinking of this ‘change’ put in place by Obama: “In the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (Obama’s term): REPEALED the 1948 Smith-Mundt Act: allowed the same propaganda disseminated by our government to foreign publics, to now be released in the U.S. for the very first time. OUR government is now ALLOWED to CREATE PROPAGANDA tailored specifically for U.S. public consumption, using ANY media as it sees fit, while remaining ANONYMOUS as to the source of the material being reported.” https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Smith-Mundt+modernization+act+2012&va=b&t=hr&ia=web

  55. They call it an Open Thread, baby,
    Gonna say my piece and step aside.
    _________________________________

    Not to brag (well, a little) I’m reading Hemingway’s “The Sun Also Rises” in French, which means I go over each sentence 5-12x. I’m experiencing the novel in slow motion.

    My god, this is a sad book. All those intriguing character details aren’t just local color about complicated Modern People, but indictments. And Hemingway didn’t exclude the first-person narrator, obviously himself.

    “The Lost Generation” wasn’t just a catchy tag for the book blurb. These people (except for Bill Gorton) are truly lost. They are never going to find happiness. They are never going to stop looking for love in all the wrong places.

    They are all “gradually, then suddenly” bankrupt. That wasn’t a great throw-away line either.

    Then there’s the killer ending:
    _____________________________________

    “Oh, Jake,” Brett said, “we could have had such a damned good time
    together.”

    Ahead was a mounted policeman in khaki directing traffic. He raised his
    baton. The car slowed suddenly pressing Brett against me.

    “Yes,” I said. “Isn’t it pretty to think so?”

    –Ernest Hemingway, “The Sun Also Rises”

  56. Mrs Whatsit,

    Thank you so much. Took my breath away as well. Reminds me of a long, difficult, and wonderful journey I recently took. I cherish the hardship!

    Pray that the road is long.

    Exactly right. Anyone who doesn’t understand hasn’t truly lived. I know that sounds pompous, but I don’t care.

    Huxley, The Sun Also Rises is, in my opinion, Hemingway’s best novel. I wish I could unread it so I could experience it again for the first time.

  58. One final comment from me on the Odyssey. Recall Odysseus recounting an episode during his travels when he and his men conducted what can only be regarded as a piratical raid on the Nile Delta. Odysseus describes how, after despoiling the area for a brief spell, the Egyptians rose up in mass and drove the Achaean raiders back to the sea. It has been suggested that this is a fictionalized imagining of an historical event, namely the Sea Peoples invasion of Egypt. Or it may just as well be an accurate if fictionalized representation of a raid by Aegean pirates, a not infrequent occurrence. The Bronze Age Greeks — known variously as Mycenaeans, Achaeans, Danaans, Ahhiyawans, Ekwesh, (Ahhiyawan was the Hittite name for them, Ekwesh was the Egyptian name) — were the Vikings of their time and place, notorious as raiders, plunderers, mercenaries, and “sackers of cities” who delighted in war and seafaring.

    BTW, all the Greeks of that period, mainlanders and islanders alike, were Achaeans.

  59. Re the Cavafy poem, “Ithaca”:

    Most of us who already know the poem first encountered it in 1994, when it was read at Jackie Kennedy Onassis’ funeral Mass by her longtime companion, Maurice Tempelsman: At her funeral at St. Ignatius Loyola Roman Catholic Church on Park Avenue five days later, he stood alongside her children and read out a poem, Ithaka by C.P. Cavafy, to which he added his own addendum. “And now the journey is over, too short, alas, too short,” Tempelsman said at the service. “It was filled with adventure and wisdom, laughter and love, gallantry and grace. So farewell, farewell.” . . . After all, though Tempelsman was most often noted in print as a “companion” or “frequent escort” the reality to those who knew them had long been obvious: Maurice Tempelsman had been Jackie’s last great love, her third husband in all but legal terms for the last decade of her life.

    Photo of Tempelsman with Jackie’s two children and son-in-law at the link:

    https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a27243432/jackie-kennedy-onassis-maurice-tempelsman-relationship/

  60. As long as we’re revisiting Homer and the long line of translations of and works inspired by the Odyssey, I’m a bit surprised that no one has yet mentioned Tennyson’s 1833 poem, “Ulysses.” When I was in high school back in the Dark Ages (I turned 75 yesterday, so we’re talking the mid-Sixties), we were expected to read a lot of Victorian prose and poetry. “Ulysses” contains a number of lines that have become catchphrases, so here goes:

    It little profits that an idle king,
    By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
    Match’d with an aged wife, I mete and dole
    Unequal laws unto a savage race,
    That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
    I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
    Life to the lees: All times I have enjoy’d
    Greatly, have suffer’d greatly, both with those
    That loved me, and alone, on shore, and when
    Thro’ scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
    Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
    For always roaming with a hungry heart
    Much have I seen and known; cities of men
    And manners, climates, councils, governments,
    Myself not least, but honour’d of them all;
    And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
    Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.
    I am a part of all that I have met;
    Yet all experience is an arch wherethro’
    Gleams that untravell’d world whose margin fades
    For ever and forever when I move.
    How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
    To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
    As tho’ to breathe were life! Life piled on life
    Were all too little, and of one to me
    Little remains: but every hour is saved
    From that eternal silence, something more,
    A bringer of new things; and vile it were
    For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
    And this gray spirit yearning in desire
    To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
    Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

    This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
    To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle,—
    Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
    This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
    A rugged people, and thro’ soft degrees
    Subdue them to the useful and the good.
    Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
    Of common duties, decent not to fail
    In offices of tenderness, and pay
    Meet adoration to my household gods,
    When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

    There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
    There gloom the dark, broad seas. My mariners,
    Souls that have toil’d, and wrought, and thought with me—
    That ever with a frolic welcome took
    The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
    Free hearts, free foreheads—you and I are old;
    Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
    Death closes all: but something ere the end,
    Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
    Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
    The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
    The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep
    Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
    ‘T is not too late to seek a newer world.
    Push off, and sitting well in order smite
    The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
    To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
    Of all the western stars, until I die.
    It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
    It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
    And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
    Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    Pace IrishOtter49, Tennyson depicts Odysseus/Ulysses as not content to stay at home with his “aged wife” and son, but rather as eager to take off on new travels and adventures.

  62. huxley–

    As always, you’re more than welcome. How is your French coming along, by the way? Been wondering if you’ve found a new tutor who won’t vous poser un lapin.

  63. huxley, The Sun Also Rises is, in my opinion, Hemingway’s best novel.

    Mike Plaiss:

    It is a beauty. I agree it’s Hemingway’s best. After that I go to his short stories.

    “For Whom the Bell Tolls’ was suitably epic, but missed the mark. The romanticism went too far.

    Back in the 90s I saw “The Bridges of Madison County” with a girlfriend. I thought it was obviously a riff on “For Whom the Bell Tolls.”

    Stranger passing through Madison County named Robert Kincaid who shoots photos of bridges versus stranger passing through Civil War Spain named Robert Jordan who blows up bridges. Both have ultimate romantic affairs with local women.

    Hmm…neither wiki article for the book nor the film mention a Hemingway angle. Am I ahead of my time?

  64. Been wondering if you’ve found a new tutor who won’t vous poser un lapin.

    PA+Cat:

    I think so for Friday.

    At any rate we’ve got a horse-and-buggy email connection as last resort.

    Otherwise I’m going to finish building a voice-to-voice ChatGPT channel for stupid French conversations, stock up on salami, crackers, cheese and box wine then see who comes out alive.

  65. “Ithaca” by Claire North is strongly recommended. Penelope is the centre of the tale as she weaves (and unweaves) the blanket for Laertes. Hera is the narrator, so there’s plenty of fun with the gods, and the intrigues of Orestes and Electra as they track down Clytemnestra, slayer of Agamemnon, are riveting.

  69. Huxley and Mike Plaiss, I’m so glad that the Ithaca poem speaks to you too. Pa+Cat, I didn’t know the Jackie story — thanks for sharing it. And thanks also for sharing the Tennyson Ulysses poem. We read the last few lines at my father’s funeral, who was “made weak by time and fate” in his later years by a terrible progressive illness and yet hung on to what life could still offer him as long and bravely as he could. Maybe it wasn’t exactly the kind of heroic journey Tennyson had in mind, but the poem was right nonetheless. I’m glad to visit it again.

  70. Luis Rodrigues, thanks for “The City.” It’s almost the opposite of “Ithaca” in its hopelessness — but I think the connection is in the Ithaca lines about carrying enemies within your soul. Maybe. Anyway, it’s given me something to think about on this fine morning.

  71. Various thoughts: Rosemary Sutcliff, author of much YA hist fic plus Sword at Sunset, imo, the best fictional treatment of Arthur based on what is known, did “Black Ships Before Troy” and “The Wanderings of Odysseus”. Both stick to the story quite well but are shorn of “aegis-bearing Zeus” and “rosy-fingered dawn” and such like. Good reads.
    As regards the Iliad, one author I couldn’t find since mentioned the prevailing winds will embay a ship up against the Troad–how’d you like to live in a place called “the Troad”–thus giving the Trojans opportunity to rob shipping, tax it, sell overpriced supplies. In any case, sailors would be annoyed on one hand and convinced that the treasury was probably pretty fat.
    So Homer took the story of what one writer referred to as a “boat load of Rhodian pirates”, added in some six-hundred year old war stories from the Bronze Age, and made a novel of it.

    As to the upsets of the era, one item is that the old writers usually exaggerated the numbers of practically anything. It’s said a million men fought at Chalons, for example. Impossible.

    So take David and Goliath. David’s a shepherd. He is a slinger. A sling is a vicious weapon and it has two big advantages over other projectile weapons. It’s cheap. Compared to a decent bow, it’s not even chump change. And you can practice for hours. And hours and hours every day and not have to pay for a single arrow. May as well, passes the time watching sheep and might come in handy if there’s a fox sneaking around.
    So comes the battle. David shows up expecting to be a slinger in the back row. The Philistines have this pituitary case up front. Okay. He’s armored, so that’s good, except if he chases David he loses. And David can sling at him all day, eventually shooting high when the shield goes low.
    The Philistines, shorn of their giant champion, have no chance against the Hebrews.
    In any organized army of even a small size, David would be given a medal Or maybe even made a sergeant without having to go to NCO school.
    Here, he’s now king. Can’t read or write.
    How did this happen?
    The Philistines are nobody wihtout their giant and the Hebrews have nobody more impressive as a potential king than David, a shepherd.

    Maybe a dozen guys on a side? If so, if even remotely close, you have to wonder how, in the midst of all this, the similarly small band of Hebrews maintained their cohesion, existence, and cultural continuity. When so many others didn’t. Help from above, maybe?

    Pretty much any tale can have an allegory imposed on it if the author’s dead, whether the author meant it or not.

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