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The debate: in the eye of the beholder — 34 Comments

1. Am I the only Republican voter whose top concern is the deterioration of free speech protections?

   Where was the discussion of the weaponization of the DOJ?

2. I have the debate recorded. Do I have to watch it? I haven’t yet.

   Of course, the candidates will play all sorts of silly games. A few might be effective. However, it really irks me that the people who own the microphones and cameras keep taking the obnoxious gamesmanship lower and lower. I refused to watched CNBC after the debacle that they called a presidential debate, years ago.

3. Doug+Purdie:

   I’m doing this from memory because so far I haven’t seen a transcript, but the topic was taken up at least briefly by both DeSantis and Ramaswamy.

4. Like Neo, I don’t have much of an appetite for political “debates.” Dueling stump speeches and cross talk irritate me. But I have two suggestions:

   1. The Republican candidates would agree to one graphic that compares inflation, interest rates, crime, and oil prices from 11/20 to 8/23 and each one should state that Biden is a train wreck and that all candidates agree with the need to change management in our country. Then they can argue about the 10% they disagree about.

   2. Put each candidate in a sound isolation booth (they can hear, but only speak when their mike is live). One mike is live at a time and a “chess clock” counts against that candidate when his/her mike is live–everyone gets the same amount of time to speak–uninterrupted by their rude colleagues. The moderator asks simple, open ended questions: what is your plan to address abortion? what is your view of the Ukraine? do you support affirmative action? Reparations? Border security? People who can articulate conservative positions concisely and clearly will find conservatives flocking to them. Say nothing stump speeches will identify the poseurs. When you’re out of time, you’re done and the people who gave concise answers will have unrebutted air time.

   Hey–what we have doesn’t work–let’s try something different.

5. TommyJay:

   Yes, the Fox people and Fox’s approach in general was often obnoxious and counterproductive.

6. “it seems like we’ve been at this so long that the idea of the election still being close to a year and a quarter away seems mindboggling.”

   Not so for everyone. I’m paying attention but not taking any of this stuff seriously until the actual voting begins.

7. Chad King:

   Good ideas. They won’t be implemented, alas.

8. After reading many debate “postmortems” today, I agree with Neo…just a lot of “hurray for my guy/gal”. Goes along with my perception after watching, no real winners, and maybe a couple of also runs. Long ways to go.

9. I didn’t watch it, but I have seen clips. I did watch most of Trump’s interview with Tucker, which was pretty darn good; but Neo is right…entirely different format.

   Much of the spin is entirely expected:

   1. Trump supporters insisting he’s the big winner because the challengers just tore into each other while Trump’s interview got tens of millions of views.

   2. DeSantis supporters insisting he was the “big winner” I don’t understand how, but spin is…well…spin.

   3. Lots of piling on Vivek from the chattering classes. But how will it play in Peoria?

   My cards on the table: I like Burgum. He’s my number one choice. I like him because his record is solidly conservative but he’s not a bomb thrower. I like him because he was a very successful businessman who got rich starting his own tech company, and then got into politics; so not at all a career politician I like him because his big issue is energy, specifically fracking (which is huge in North Dakota).

   I know there are plenty of rejoinder to everything I just said and I’m well aware his chances are minimal. But I am well beyond weary of the social media inspired personality cult candidates. That’s Trump, but it’s also DeSantis at this point. Yes, DeSantis has his own personality cult (albeit smaller than Trump’s) mostly among the conservative chattering classes. I don’t like that.

   Yes, I fully agree if ‘deus ex machina’ DeSantis were installed as President (and with solid GOP Congressional majorities), he’d likely accomplish more than Trump, Burgum or any other candidate. But it doesn’t work that way. His campaign has been mediocre and he needs to win over more than conservative talking heads to get the nomination, let alone win the Presidency. So far, he’s not doing it.

   Can Burgum do it? No idea. But I like what I’ve seem, heard and know so far.

10. Ackler:

    You write that DeSantis is preferred “mostly among the conservative chattering classes. I don’t like that.”

    Mostly? Am I a member of that class? Are the DeSantis-preferring commenters here of that class? Is Ace of Spades, who clearly has preferred DeSantis so far? And perhaps many people in the actual “chattering classes” prefer DeSantis because they think he has a better chance of winning in the general?

    The campaigns have barely gotten started, and DeSantis has had to fight against continual attacks (and lies) from Trump and Trump-supporters, which the other contenders have not had to do nearly as much. Nevertheless, in the poll averages and most of the polls, DeSantis is still the opposition leader. The fight against Trump is uphill for all the people on the debate stage, but DeSantis is doing the best of the group.

11. “Lots of piling on Vivek from the chattering classes. But how will it play in Peoria?” Vivek will not play well in Peoria I would imagine. I agree with Neo on him and would add that he is an Isolationist. I know he is old enough to be President, but he is also too young to be President. Maybe with some seasoning and maturity but he really is very full of himself. Of course so many of the others are too.

12. Neo,

    Perhaps I phrased that poorly. I meant to say the ‘chattering classes’ on the right seem to love DeSantis to the point of a personality cult. That includes people like Mark Levin, who you cited.

    That’s not to say there aren’t others who like or support him. Of course there are. But I’m noticing a DeSantis love-fest among conservative activists (including a friend of mine who just posted a long tribute to DeSantis’s debate performance on Facebook). I don’t like that. Not with him or Trump or anyone else.

    I’m not anti-DeSantis. I prefer him to Trump, without a doubt. And as I said, he’d probably accomplish more as President than any of his GOP competitors. But his campaign so far has been unimpressive. It’s has to get a lot better for him to win the nomination…and…the Presidency.

13. “…that we will get Biden versus Trump”

    I highly doubt that. Biden can barely talk or walk, and Trump likely has his own health problems, not to mention he’ll be in court for the next 5 years. His followers are a rowdy lot, but they won’t prevail in the end.

    Barring something tectonic, I’m leaning towards DeSantis v. Newsom.

14. The Dog Did Not Bark ^^

    A) Video Shows Ron DeSantis Checking Other Candidates Before Raising His Hand

    https://www.newsweek.com/ron-desantis-raise-hand-trump-convicted-crime-debate-1822133

    B) TRUMP-TUCKER INTERVIEW MAKES HISTORY WITH 200 MILLION VIEWS AND COUNTING

    https://www.rsbnetwork.com/news/trump-tucker-interview-makes-history-with-200-million-views-and-counting/

    C) DeSantis’ Twitter Launch Got 3.4 Million Listens In A Day. Trump’s Tucker Interview Got 75 Million In 20 Minutes

    https://dailycaller.com/2023/08/23/desantis-twitter-launch-trump-tucker-debate/

    D) How Trump Won the Debate He Shunned

    https://time.com/6307881/shunning-the-gop-debate-for-tucker-carlson-trump-reveals-his-campaign-strategy/

    E) Yes, some of Tucker’s questions were loaded; however, Trump choose to defuse rather than inflame.

    • Tucker Carlson (07:28): And now indictment. I mean, the next stage is violence. Are you worried that they’re going to try and kill you? Why wouldn’t they try and kill you? Honestly?

    •Tucker Carlson (44:22): Do you think we’re moving towards civil war?

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/tucker-on-x-debate-night-interview-with-donald-trump-transcript

    ^^ = “Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention? To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time. The dog did nothing in the night-time. ‘That was the curious incident, remarked Sherlock Holmes.”

15. that guy:

    Oh, no! DeSantis looked around! Forgive me for not caring; I would have looked around, too. DeSantis has proven time and again that he’s not afraid to say and do controversial and bold things, either.

    As far as Twitter views go, of course Trump draws viewers. However, you are also comparing apples and oranges. See this:

    Look, I don’t doubt that a lot of people watched the interview. But was it really 160 million? Let’s just get this right out of the way: No.

    Let’s put this into perspective. One hundred sixty million is roughly half of the population of the United States, and let me assure you that half of the country did not watch Trump’s interview with Tucker Carlson.

    As I’ve previously noted, Twitter, which is now called X, doesn’t have nearly the same reach as television. Roughly 97% of households have at least one television, while only 23% of American adults use X. Heck, X, despite being a popular platform, doesn’t have the same reach as YouTube, Facebook, or even Instagram, which are used by 81%, 69%, and 40% of adults respectively.

    If half the country isn’t even on X, how is it possible for Trump’s interview to have so many views? Easy. That’s because the number of views attributed to a video includes those who watch the entire video, just a portion of it, or even scroll past it on their feed without even looking at it. Multiple views by the same user are also counted as unique views. You don’t have to take my word for it, either. That’s information coming straight from X.

16. “I suspect none of it really matters – that we will get Biden versus Trump and a repeat of 2020 in terms of the results.” neo

    At this point, that is a possibility that cannot be dismissed. Of course, the stresses in conducting a ‘vigorous’ campaign may do Biden in or… in desperation a ‘rogue’ actor may assassinate Trump.

    Other possibilities are that Sovereign Bankruptcy may finally make its way to Jerusalem… A new scamdemic may force Biden’s Uni-Party to cancel the election. But of course, only until WHO declares the emergency to be over.

    I still see Newsom as the dem’s 2024 nominee. If not, at least Biden’s new VP.

17. Erasmus:

    You could be correct, but I don’t think so. See this as well as this.

18. Oh noes, the “election cancelation trope” has now moved from a progressive/leftist fear-propaganda directed at the pseudo evil OMB, to the actually evil Brandon junta.

    Election “fortification” as done in 2020 is the continuing threat to this country. 2020 was bad enough, it could be worse in 2024.

19. Ackler:

    Personally, I haven’t seen any of that sort of over-the-top praise for DeSantis. Then again, I don’t read Mark Levin much, if at all. Of course DeSantis has a lot of work to do to win anything. But it’s early.

    I do think that people like Levin find DeSantis’ style a refreshing change from Trump, and think he would be more effective. That’s what I see happening. But again, I probably don’t read the people you’re talking about. Do you have a link to a typical piece of that sort? I’d be curious.

20. “President Trump, I believe, was the best president of the 21st century. It’s a fact,” Vivek stated…

    So true…
    *swoon* *faint*

21. @ Neo

    A) “However, you are also comparing apples and oranges.”

    • 100% agree that the writer at PJ Media is attempting to compare apples-to-oranges – by restricting his “analysis” to a reality that does not exist – i.e., only people in the USA can view the Tucker & Trump interview on Twitter.

    • To be fair, others are comparing Trump views to DeSantis views – on the same platform with the same worldwide reach – which strikes me as an apples-to-apples compare. Some may disagree.

    B) “Oh, no! DeSantis looked around! Forgive me for not caring; I would have looked around, too. DeSantis has proven time and again that he’s not afraid to say and do controversial and bold things, either.”

    • 100% understand that you would not want to dwell on it, but that does not mean it was a good look for DeSantis – on an issue important to many Republican voters – or that it did not generate unflattering headlines for him.

    • His action/ inaction was not a defining moment for the debate or the DeSantis campaign – but it was a moment that was noticed.

    • I’ll add that I have seen other critiques of DeSantis’ debate mannerisms, expressions, smile, etc., but after watching the FL debate with Crist I was well aware that he is “challenged” in that regard – the above was different. Some may disagree.

22. FWIW, I think Trump lost ground. His interview with Tucker was full of softballs… where was the hardball Tucker we all know and love? Trump’s only real selling point is that he’s a fighter, but here’s a fighter who won’t fight, and who insists on kid glove treatment from his interviewer. Too much like Biden on CNN. The other candidates answered a range of questions, from abortion to UFOs, in front of God and everyone. Maybe DJT really is old and tired.

23. Banned Lizard:

    That quote of Ramaswamy’s about Trump being the best president of the 21st century – well, of course he is. There are only three other presidents as competition: Bush, Obama, and Biden. So it’s a no brainer to say what Vivek said.

24. Neo @ 8:10 PM, was that reported number from US subscribers only? Or is the world more interested in what Trump says than what his Republican Pretenders say?
    Shirehome @ 6:33 PM, personally, as someone who lives just outside figurative Peoria, Vivek played. He had ready answers to every attack and was occasionally allowed to answer by his competitors and the moderators. And every attack on him diminished his attacker and increased his standing as a serious conservative candidate with a wicked smile. So thank you Chris Christie.
    All, I will not support a weasel for President, even if it means four more years.

25. The Democrats aren’t going to cancel the election. They will do everything else to win, but they recognize that election cancellation is something they can’t get away with.

    I’ve always thought Michelle Obama would never run for president. She’s not interested. But it occurs to me that if she ran for vice president with Newsom, it would solve a lot of problems for the Democrats.

    Trump will have to debate sometime. If he doesn’t, it will be a sign that he doesn’t really want to win but is just gratifying his ego. Not debating in the primary season would also put a lot more pressure on him when he has to debate the Democratic candidate (which he will have to do if he wants to win). So maybe DeSantis will shine, or maybe Trump will, or one of them will falter. That’s when the nomination race will be decided. It’s a problem if Trump sweeps the early primaries so well that the others give up without debating him. It would be comical if the one Trump had to debate would be Ramaswamy.

    Headline on J. Podhoretz’s commentary: “Haley Dazzles, Vivek Annoys Effectively.” He may have nailed Vivek’s role in the campaign, but did he think he was watching a beauty pageant?

26. Jerry:

    I don’t know who the weasel is that you’re referring to – Christie? Everyone but Trump or Vivek? But it seems you prefer Biden to whoever this weasel is. Fascinating.

    I don’t know about the way Twitter counts the views in terms of US versus the world. The article didn’t say. I’m going to assume it’s a worldwide total as opposed to the TV debate total which is in the US, but I don’t know. The main point for which I offered the quote had to do with how views themselves are counted; apparently, it doesn’t have to be much of a view to be counted. If I am reading the Twitter rules correctly, “multiple views may be counted if you view a Tweet more than once,” That would mean that a person could inflate the number of views by clicking on the video over and over and over again. That can’t be done with the debate view numbers.

27. So Vivek said the US munitions being sent to Ukraine should be kept in the US to protect our borders. Yep there is an imminent threat posed by Canada that is in need of 155 mm tubes and rounds, HIMARS rockets, M1A2 tanks, Bradley IFVs, Javelin and TOW ATGMs, Patriot missile systems, and so forth. And Mexico is even more of a threat. Otay.

    Vivek knows how to pander to the Tucker club, but other than that his ignorance is manifest.

    Making a bundle in biotech only goes, not far enough.

28. Vivek reminds me of many good fighter pilots I have known. He’s confident and cocky. It’s something that annoys a lot of people. But let’s face it, he has accomplished a lot in his short life. I like him and his willingness to take unpopular positions and defend them. On the other hand, I’m beginning to see some holes in his ideas. He’s got grandiose ideas (Get rid of the DOJ, FBI, IRS, and more!) that I doubt he can deliver on. If he could deliver on 10% it would be great, IMO. Anyway, I still like him as an idea man and speaker of truth, but he may not be ready for the big time. As Neo says, it’s a long time until the 2024 election.

    What the national GOP needs to be doing is getting the people in place in the swing states and counties to fortify the election. It will take some big bucks but is worth the effort to stop the steal.

    The Democrats have many NGOs, union members (mostly teachers and government employees), and paid employees that they use to harvest ballots, work the precincts, and oversee the counting. The GOP needs to match that effort.

    Secondly, the GOP needs to construct a coherent argument on two issues that will make a difference with the moderates and undecideds.

    Those two issues are climate change and abortion. The Democrats will use those two issues to get those votes because the GOP does not speak with a unified voice and clear position on those two issues. The Republicans will be cast, once again, as the party that wants to criminalize abortion and pollute the air with CO2 that causes AGW. And moderates or undecided voters will buy it. It won’t be easy, but if the GOP wants to win in 2024, we will have to overcome those claims.

29. First – I didn’t watch the debate and probably won’t watch any going forward until at least summer of next year, unless I need to in order to vote in a primary. I don’t read polls either, until much closer to the election. The analysis gets outdated within a week. I’ll stick to the commentary of the Salon here, because that is more representative of the actual voting public than are the pundits, who also let their personal bias color their judgments. With the caveat that follows —

    Second – reading the commentary here yesterday and today, I agree with the thrust of Neo’s post, and with this commenter:
    https://www.thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/theres-a-gop-debate-tonight/#comment-2695490
    MrsX on August 24, 2023 at 10:42 am said:
    “I didn’t watch. Reading the comments here, it’s hard to believe y’all were watching the same event.”

    I especially like that she spelled “y’all” correctly.
    In the past, I’ve noted the same thing (conflicting views) after every debate over the several decades that I’ve been reading poli-blogs and following the news; it applies to the general election debates as well as to most speeches by Presidents and other important people (I first remember noticing it when the Media did not seem to be talking about a GWB speech that I had just watched myself); and it never changes.

    Third – I agree with Chad’s ideas, although they are not unique; similar variants are proposed just about every election cycle (notice that is no longer “election year,” as Neo noted. See Jerry’s comment here:
    https://www.thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/theres-a-gop-debate-tonight/#comment-2695485

    @ Neo > “Fox’s approach in general was often obnoxious and counterproductive.”

    Based on their past debates and election performances, I would say this is a feature not a bug, as the Foxies don’t want viewers to get a positive impression of any Republican candidate.

    Too cynical, maybe?

30. Here’s some different views!

    https://notthebee.com/article/trump-didnt-debate–heres-why-i-dont-like-it

    https://notthebee.com/article/trump-didnt-debate–heres-why-i-liked-it

31. Neo:

    Although it’s true that Vivek’s “best president” statement was as blatantly obvious as calling Chris Christie a fat gob of goo, it was an appropriate reply to Bret Baier’s question of whether the candidates would support Trump if he is convicted by a blue city kangaroo court.

32. So…is the Burgum guy this year’s candidate to be last cycle’s Mike Pence?
    All the other dogs in the pack (not looking here at Hutchison, Christie or Pence) are too much enamoured with their own candidacy to stoop to a “warm bucket of spit” role in the White House or the campaign for that matter.
    The two Indians are not going to put up playing second fiddle to POTUS Trump & DeSantis sure won’t either. That leaves Burgum.

    Trump/Burgum 2024?

33. I would have loved a WWF wrestling match! This format was awful and was an embarrassment in terms of showcasing Republicans to the American people. Ronna McDaniel has a lot to answer for since it was her organization that approved this catastrophe. Get her out!!!!!

34. Neo : Fox’s approach in general was often obnoxious and counterproductive.

    I gave up on Fox at the first (IIRC) presidential debate in 2020. Not only was Chris Wallace an ass, but I recall this (paraphrased) exchange between Pete Buttigieg, Brett Baier, and Martha MacCallum prior to the beginning of the debate. Nice pushback guys.
    PB: Donald Trump is the most racist president ever, evidenced by his words at Charlottsville.
    BB, MM: … Well, we wish your candidate the best of luck!

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