The DeSantis versus Trump duel
It’s a given that the left and the MSM hate DeSantis and will do their best to destroy him. It’s also a given, apparently, that the portion of the right one might call EverTrumpers also detest DeSantis.
People who’ve read my blog for years know my history with Trump. Early on I realized his appeal and also that he had a chance of winning the nomination and even perhaps the presidency (see this post of mine from August of 2015, for example). But he worried me for two big reasons: I didn’t trust him because he seemed like a loose cannon, and I thought he was actually very likely to lose to Hillary Clinton. And so I didn’t support him in the primaries, although afterwards I was very nervous about his prospects. And then, after he won, I looked at him objectively in terms of what he actually did as president, and for the most part I liked what I saw.
I’ve also written that I think something happened to him in the fall of 2020, shortly before the election. I think it’s possible that it had to do with his serious bout with COVID, or perhaps the meds he took to combat COVID, such as steroids. Whatever it may have been, I noticed it almost immediately when he returned. There was something off about him. It was as though some of his political instincts had deserted him.
And I think there’s been something off about him ever since. That said, I would vote for him were he to be nominated, and certainly I would not for a single moment consider voting for Biden. But I think – as I’ve also written several times – that Trump has almost no chance of winning the general in 2024. People’s minds are made up about him, and too many people are “anyone but Trump.”
But does any Republican have a chance in the general? I don’t know (as I indicated in this post from yesterday), and there are several very worrisome factors that militate against it.
I haven’t yet watched DeSantis’ appearance on Twitter last night to kick off his campaign, but I know that my post on that subject drew some interesting comments typical of what I see around the right side of the blogosphere whenever DeSantis’ candidacy comes up. They range from suggestions that Florida needs him more, that he should wait for 2028, that he doesn’t have the common touch that Trump has, to (mostly seen on other blogs) that he’s just Jeb lite and that he’s being disloyal to Trump by running at all.
These statements all seem either wrong to me, irrelevant, or preposterous.
For example, DeSantis helped drive reform of the voting system in Florida and as a result the state is more reliably red and the voting process there is more reliable in general than it was before. He’s set the state on a course good enough that I think he can move on to something else with the idea that a successor Republican will do well there. If it turns out that DeSantis has a better chance of beating Biden than Trump does, then he owes it to himself and to us to run now.
But does he have a better chance? Polls are irrelevant; it’s way too early in the game for them to matter. I happen to think at this point that he does have a better chance in the general than Trump, but I say to others why not watch the campaign and see how he does rather than pre-judge him as lacking? In other words, I think whether he has general appeal or not – including whether he’s “likeable,” a trait Trump isn’t all that strong on himself with an awful lot of people – will become more clear as time goes on.
The loyalty argument seems to me to be the most hypocritical of all, because there’s no way that Trump would follow such a rule if he saw his own opportunity. Politics ain’t beanbag.
I also think that Trump – who is, among other things, very lively and entertaining – has accustomed his supporters to the show he presents. Neither DeSantis nor most other politicians can offer such a show. They’re perceived sometimes as boring. But it does not mean they would do worse in the general; perhaps the opposite is the case. Trump’s very liveliness and outspokenness so often segue into nastiness and/or outrageousness that those traits alone have turned off a great many voters.
I think that many of the people who go around the blogosphere writing these negative things about DeSantis are sincere. But I’m convinced that many are not. I’m convinced that a significant number are actually on the left and are trying very hard to widen the rift between these two sides of the Republican electorate, because they know that would be a likely way to effect a Biden win in the end. Each time I write about DeSantis in a positive way, I see some completely new commenters suddenly appear who are critical of him, people who’ve never commented here before. Paid operatives? Perhaps.
[ADDENDUM: Ace says it all, and then some.]
I agree with much of what you write here, but like many, you might not appreciate part of Trump’s appeal. Most people think he won in 2016 because Hillary was just that unlikeable. That certainly contributed, but he won voters that had not voted in several elections. These voters are seen by DeSantis’ backers (like Rove even if he’s not officially on the campaign) as Not Our Kind, Dear. If DeSantis doesn’t court them, including by acknowledging the fraud in 2020, they aren’t coming out to vote for him. Trump courted them when both parties deserted them. I will vote for either, but I live in the area of Trump’s base, and they won’t. Without those 10 million or so, the Meat Puppet will be frauded right back into office.
When DeSantis talks about policy I think he actually understands the issues and he talks confidently about them without ridiculous tired name calling. I’m so over the name calling.
Also it never ceases to amaze me how these Only Trumpers seem to just gloss over DeSantis congressional record before he was ever governor. There is zero actual evidence that he is some sort of closet RINO or whatever.
Trump has no fixed set of beliefs. That can be good sometimes but if your only belief is yourself and what is best for you then you get what we have gotten the last few years.
The loyalty thing is ridiculous why isn’t he attacking Nikki Haley with this? And why isn’t she attacking Trump? Isn’t he the frontrunner? Hmmm.
Griffin:
Quick answer about why Nikki Haley is not attacking Trump: she’s actually running for VP.
I believe the first debate happened shortly after Trump had COVID. That could account for his poor performance in the debate — he might not have had the time to prepare or might not have been in any condition to benefit from preparation — but my feeling at the time was that it was just Trump being Trump, and Trump not having anyone reliable to advise him or ignoring the advice he was given.
Trump got played — that is outwitted — by the Democrats in 2020. They cheated and the media just ignored and denied it, and that would twist anybody. Beyond that, though, Trump never faced up to his own part in the defeat, the things that he did and didn’t do that hurt his chances. He hasn’t been able to get over it and focus on the future.
For me, Trump talked over or around the usual political trench fighting. His entertaining persona cut through all the usual rhetoric. I can understand that it isn’t that way for other people. My feeling is that DeSantis would just get bogged down in that ideological trench fighting, but, as I’ve said, that’s only a feeling.
I would vote for Trump again, but I’m not optimistic about his chances. Or America’s.
Neo:
I had not noticed a policy change on Trump’s part after his bout with Covid. Very interesting. I do remember my attitude toward him mellowed in the latter part of his administration. I think I was just tiring of what I interpreted as randomness on his part: he just didn’t seem to be focusing on the long-range goal, preferring to respond daily to perceived attacks. Not that I blame him, as the MSM and federal agencies appeared to be ganging up on him. So, did his personality change after his Covid, or did the attacks just get more insistent and push him to a more aggressive counterattack? I don’t know, and I am not optimistic we’ll ever find out.
Obviously many voters on the Right have a fairly strong emotional attachment to Trump even with all his flaws and… baggage* or maybe even because of them, lots of Conservatives love him. He’s basically a folk hero going up against a deeply corrupt system that brazenly attacks him and his supporters with endless smears and lawfare. The more unjustly he’s treated, the greater the love his supporters feel for him. In a way it’s sort of funny since one of the biggest criticisms conservatives often level towards people on the left is their overly emotional attatchment to certain political figures like Barrack Obama and Bill Clinton, turning them into rockstars, penning treacly hagiographies in op-ed pages and the like.
At any rate, it’s pretty hard to remain completely dispassionite these days when we see all the awfulness that has transpired over the past few years and all the blatant corruption and cruelty visited upon the American people. We wish for a hero to save us. Is that hero Trump or DeSantis?
* (is that term in danger of overuse when talking about Trump around here?)
This from Ace pretty much sums up how I’m feeling right now.
https://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=404608
“We wish for a hero to save us”
Not a conservative trait. At all. People who are smart enough to know that power corrupts and that government is the problem don’t want a hero as president. They want the opposite.
Because of the dishonest, corrupt, and criminal cabal aligned against us, however, we DO want a fighter. Trump and DeSantis have both demonstrated they will fight. DeSantis has shown that he is smarter than Trump and has a better handle on the facts and the details of policy. He also didn’t bungle Covid. Trump bungled it because he was lied to outrageously by Democrat partisans in the health establishment.
I will support either. I would prefer DeSantis. Particularly because Trump proved that a maverick without a party lacks a cadre of competent people sufficiently large to staff the bureaucracy. That hurt Trump badly.
DeSantis would likely have a much, much larger group of smart, experienced conservatives willing to serve in his administration. That factor alone could make an enormous difference.
It really comes down to a large proportion of Republican voters not trusting the Republican party and so unwilling to abandon Trump, and a large proportion of people who rarely vote or vote Democratic being willing to vote for Trump, and in both cases it’s because Trump is an outsider and not a professional politician.
DeSantis has many good qualities, but he is a professional politician.
(Incidentally the Lincoln Project is now going full steam against DeSantis so if you had any illusions about their True Conservatism those ought to be dispelled.)
Academic as there is no path for a Republican to win the Electoral College vote in 2024. Those who disagree, kindly name the states that can flip and name the election reforms since 2020 in those states that make a flip even possible. (None of those people can or will.)
Trump or DeSantis can certainly lose some of the states Trump carried in 2020, but they cannot win any of the ones he didn’t except Georgia and maybe Wisconsin, and that is not 270 Electoral College votes.
Griffin, thanks. That’s a very solid piece. I agree with you both.
As I’ve stated many times before, my MotR family members all voted for Trump in 2016 because they couldn’t stand Hillary, and as my SiL put it, “she’s a major bitch”. Come 2020, many of those same people voted for Biden and have stated they will never vote for Trump. He just became, “too much” for them with all the drama. I know…the squishy MotR voters who vote much more on personality than results, but they are important, at least in a fair election. DeSantis has a much better chance of bringing those folks back in.
And my own prejudice is that if Ramaswamy could just get some real exposure they would probably like him a lot.
Trump as the GOP nominee means the Dems totally take over.
physicsguy,
I can understand people who didn’t really know Biden choosing him in 2020 (not really, but I’ll accept that middle of the road folks who aren’t paying attention didn’t understand what they were getting with Biden).
But after four years of vacant, stupid and insane?
I can’t imagine that someone who voted for Trump in 16, Biden in 20 and faced with a choice of the two in 24 would think Trump was worse. Biden now is a known quantity. Even for the mushy middle who don’t pay much attention.
“…[V]ery worrisome factors that mitigate against it.” Should be “militate against it.”
physicsguy (2:21 pm), please, what is “MotR”?
M J R,
Middle of the Road
Thanx [smile].
Neither DeSantis nor most other politicians can offer such a show. They’re perceived sometimes as boring. But it does not mean they would do worse in the general; perhaps the opposite is the case.
I actually do think it would mean that they would do worse in the general. I used to like these solid and not flashy people, sometimes midwesterners, like a Scott Walker as presidential candidates. But they’re boring. Which means they’re hopeless in terms of electability. Yes, yes, so many things are more important in reality, but … When you come down to it, it is largely a popularity contest. As Churchill said, the worst of systems, except for all the rest. I think that is part of what he meant.
DeSantis did a solid job on FoxNews last night except for the fact that my mind wandered off during part of it. My mental focus ain’t what it used to be, but still; it was somewhat boring. The good news is that DeSantis isn’t extremely boring, so it may be fixable or improved upon.
Conservatives love him. He’s basically a folk hero going up against a deeply corrupt system that brazenly attacks him and his supporters with endless smears and lawfare.
I think the smears against his supporters, or normals as I call them, are the major factor. The parents at school board meetings, the political prisoners in Garland’s archipelago, the military which is collapsing from the vaccine nonsense and the DEI.
Those of us who have doubts about sending Ukraine $80 billion are noticing DeS’s quick collapse on Ukraine once his donors yanked his chain, need a bit of encouragement.
I agree about the Covid thing but that was his son-in-law, Kushner, who was running the 2020 campaign. Scott Atlas’ book makes that pretty clear.
I’m nowhere near as big a DeSantis supporter as I was before yesterday. The top two things I valued in him were his competence and his lack of negative personal issues. I’m now down to one thing as he was far from competent yesterday. If you are going to do something new and exciting in front of millions of people you better get it right.
Willliam:
I haven’t seen any previous comments from you about how much you liked DeSantis. Nor was he the least bit incompetent yesterday. He’s not in charge of Twitter and its crashing from too many people wanting to listen to him. Things like that happen all the time.
Funny thing, but that was Trump’s criticism of him.
If that’s all it takes for you to turn on DeSantis, you weren’t much of a “big” supporter of his in the first place.
Mike K,
Yep, it’s never Trump’s fault. Ever. If he was only President then he could be in charge and he could pick who was in his administration.
This bizarre thing where people defend Trump from his OWN personnel decisions is infuriating.
And read that Ace Of Spades link above about Trump and DeSantis on Ukraine where they both said just about the same thing but somehow DeSantis is the globalist war monger.
Mike K:
I am going to be uncharacteristically blunt and call BS. First of all, plenty of conservatives don’t love Trump. And plenty of the people who love him are not really conservatives.
And I am sick of all the lies told about DeSantis by the right. He did not change what he’d said about Ukraine. He merely clarified something. Here is my post on DeSantis’ original statement on the matter. His position made perfect sense, and was completely consistent with his later clarification. The problem is that both the DeSantis haters and the MSM characterized it as backtracking, using the usual truncated quote method. The coverage has all been in the form of this false “backtracking” message, which you’ve been happy to parrot back in this thread and others.
You certainly don’t have to like DeSantis nor do you have to vote for him. But stop repeating lies about him that you’ve read elsewhere.
Trump is a terrible judge of people and he made some terrible appointments. Let’s not forget that he kept on James Comey at the FBI after seeing his performance with the Hillary emails, and then he appointed the snake Christopher Wray. He also appointed Mark Milley. He appointed people who were good men but disagreed with him, such as Rex Tillerson and Mark Esper.
The list is endless. Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani did him tremendous harm.
How about his endorsements? Dr. Oz and Herschel Walker? Come on.
For these reasons alone, he should not be president.
Ayuh. 80 billion to secure Ukraine’s border, probably a few billion to prevent ours from being secure. Choices choices?
Then there is:
https://www.floppingaces.net/2023/05/25/while-the-2024-election-is-still-already-over-ive-decided-that-trump-needs-to-be-the-nominee/
Griffin:
Those who would defend Trump at all costs must lie about DeSantis to do it, so facts are not relevant to them. In that, they remind me of the left in terms of technique.
physicsguy:
I think one of the most inexplicable things about actual EverTrumpers is that they see him as the only possible winner against Biden in 2024. That is quite the opposite of what I see.
Of course, some commenters merely pose as Trump-supporters on the right in order to diss DeSantis and elevate Trump, and they are actually on the left and see DeSantis as the bigger threat to them.
Whenever I post on Trump vs. DeSantis, quite a few new commenters come onboard to diss DeSantis. I believe, but cannot prove, that some of these people are pretenders who are on the left.
David:
Fixed, thanks.
neo,
You haven’t had a ‘house troll’ for awhile like ‘Manru’ or whatever or the other guy whose name I forget.
I think ‘Manru’ was still around in the COVID Times because he famously would only walk a block from the beach in Cali because of COVID.
Then he disappeared. Maybe he will return next year.
Frederick:
Trump has lost his “not a politician” aura. He’s been a politician since 2015, which is a long time now.
stan:
You have done a good job in stating many of the reasons I support DeSantis.
DeSantis first ran for office in 2012, Trump first ran for office in 2016. So he has been a ‘politician’ longer than Trump yes but that is a weird argument at this point anyway.
Not being a politician may help in the election but it sure as hell didn’t help Trump while he was president.
Griffin:
Trump came close to running for president even before that. Many times, actually.
Neo,
thankyou, thankyouverymuch.
—-
https://pjmedia.com/columns/stephen-kruiser/2023/05/25/the-morning-briefing-desantis-vs-trump-is-the-heavyweight-fight-weve-been-waiting-for-n1697991
Kruiser makes some quality points.
1. “If the Democrats win the White House again in 2024, the United States of America will be burnt toast. That’s not fantastical hyperbole. One only has to look at the shredding of the Constitution since Joe Biden showed up in January 2021 to see that it’s true.”
2. He is also correct that DeSantis would be smart to tie Trump to Fauci. I would add the jab. I wouldn’t be surprised if DeSantis criticizes Trump about the jab during a debate to see Trump double down on his pride at having pushed the development of it. That would likely hurt DT with a lot of his followers.
3. “Once more, with feeling: either one of these candidates can save the country if elected. GOP voters will have to abandon their petty penchant for sitting out an election if their candidate isn’t in it. If the Escalator MAGA faithful won’t vote for DeSantis if he’s the nominee, they’ll be guilty of doing what they accused the Never Trump Republicans of doing in 2016: essentially voting for the Democrat.”
I think this gives DeSantis an opening to score points. I expect that he will cite Reagan and agree that he will wholeheartedly support the nominee of the party no matter what. Trump could well hesitate to do that. And that would hurt him.
I am already sick of Trump/DeSantis arguments, and have reached the point where every one of them makes me lean the opposite way.
Griffin:
All my “house trolls” are on the right, these days. :-).
It is really sad to read people who think a proven, competent Conservative cannot win because he is perceived as boring. By boring, I suppose they mean that he focuses on issues and policies rather than throwing rhetorical stink bombs.
Heaven help us.
I look forward to voting for DeSantis in the New York state presidential primary.
If he wins the GOP nomination for the Presidency, I will enthusiastically vote for him in the general election of 2024.
boring is fine, and it’s in the heart of the beholder, I appreciate many of the things desantis has done, i’m less wary of the some of the donors, ken griffin really has not had much purchase that I can see,
but one looks at how they corrupted the law enforcement, and medical establishments, how they continue with this sword of damocles while traitors and degenerates run free, the point of charlottesville, was they wanted to abolish our history, and have gone a country mile towards that goal,
the uniparty put their stamp on mayorkas, austin, and co, and I haven’t seen any of those who voted for them apologize,
to put it more simply is there any institution that have not corrupted or poisoned substantially any injury against the body politic they have failed any quintessential institution they have hobbled,
they lock up some diligent folk but they absolve the lions share of rioters and terrorists, that terrorized this country three years ago, and send back the ones that continued the war that started in earnest nearly 22 years ago,
neo, I have not decided who I will vote for in the primary as I think the lawfare by Democrats may just be too much. I don’t believe I was “lying” about DeSantis quick change of opinion on Ukraine. I saw Karl Rove unload on him just before be “clarified” his comment.
Also I seem to have some company that don’t agree with you.
On Wednesday, Reed Galen, a Republican strategist turned anti-Trump campaigner, said: “DeSantis is a conventional politician. They’re polling like mad and found his Ukraine position is unpopular with general election Republicans. Also, donors hate it.”
Oh well, the anger seems to be taking over here.
Mike K,
Seriously, you’re using the co founder of The Lincoln Project as a source on anything?
These ‘Republican’ NeverTrumpers are all over the place attacking DeSantis right now. Why, oh, why might that be? Maybe because they want Trump to win the nomination because they know he will lose the general.
There are legit attack angles on DeSantis from Trump but those aren’t the ones being used against him. Instead it’s junk like that.
But I guess that’s just my anger taking over.
The divide now seems to be whether one thinks the “dull but competent” politicians really are competent. If you do (or at least if you think that it’s true of DeSantis) you’ll support DeSantis and reject Trump’s circus. If you don’t (or if you think that even a half-century of experience in politics doesn’t produce competent and effective leaders), you’ll stick with Trump. Some governor or other is always being talked up as a candidate and then falling short — Pawlenty, Daniels, Walker. Mike Pence isn’t the demon he’s made out to be, but he’s no great advertisement for dullness in politics. Still, DeSantis does have more name recognition nationally and a good reputation for crisis management, if not for major reforms.
Trump doesn’t have the “not a politician” luster anymore, but he’s still anything but a typical politician. That appeals to a lot of people. His problem though, may be that he’s no longer the one candidate who addresses the difficult issues other politicians avoid. The cheap shots against Cruz and Rubio as conventional politicians that voters accepted in 2016 are harder to get away with now. The attacks against DeSantis look more petty and personal, not necessarily because they are, but because the political environment has changed.
Choosing between DeSantis and Trump comes down to one thing for me: With his endorsements Trump has a solid group of Representatives that will back him. DeSantis has the GOPe behind him and I remember how much they betrayed the Base over the last 12 years. As for who is electable, I think DeSantis gets the nod. Trump’s negatives are pretty high. If President Mush-Head deteriorates as expected, I expect either can win against him. I think the Democrats will ease Biden out and choose another unknown governor like Carter.
I’m for Desantis. He can draw independents, which Trump cannot because the Dems in DC have poisoned his well, and he is being worn down by these phony DA charges by people like Bragg, against which he must defend himself, at cost of money, time and energy.
Trump’s track record as POTUS makes him one of our greatest presidents ever, unless you are a snarling, socialist Democrat who sneers or ignores achievements like the Abraham Accords..
Abraxas:
Actually, it’s also whether one thinks they’re dull.
I don’t think DeSantis is dull. He’s only dull if one is addicted to the cocaine-high of Trump.
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2023/05/why_kari_lake_couldnt_close_the_deal.html
Sadly, neither has a shot, I’m still a Trump guy, wish DeSantis would sit this out and watch how the vote fraud is going to roll whomever runs
they stole it from her in maricopa county, the process is the punishment,
Skip:
If you are certain neither can win, why would you care who runs?
And do you think DeSantis is unaware of the possibility of rigging and fraud? Why would he need to watch it again? He doesn’t need education.
Did you notice when I said that DeSantis helped fix Florida’s voting laws? If you’re unaware of what I’m talking about, please see this and then this. Obviously, he doesn’t need education on the subject.
A quote from the second article:
@neo:Trump has lost his “not a politician” aura. He’s been a politician since 2015, which is a long time now.
My words were “professional politician”. Yes, Trump has held office, and he has run for office. But he is not perceived by the general public as a “professional politician”, nor is he treated as one by “professional politicians”.
I could cheerfully vote for DeSantis, Trump, or any of the other Rs who’ve thrown their hat in the ring, even if I didn’t know it was completely futile to expect a Republican to win in 2024. I’ve never been particularly pro-Trump, at best you could say I was anti-NeverTrump, and I’d accept that characterization.
Mostly though I am pro-reality and the reality is that abandoning Trump is no safe choice for Republicans. There is no safe choice for Republicans, and there is no chance of their winning the Presidency in 2024, because elections don’t work the way people think they do any more.
We didn’t vote for any of this, and we won’t be able to undo it merely by voting. We need effective opposition to the forces that centralizing their power over this country, and the national Republican party is not that and has not been for many years. Creating that effective opposition will be very hard work and will require not getting distracted by culture war theater and primary drama-it will require purging and rebuilding institutions from the ground up, at minimum, in the best case.
Trump rode a wave, but he is not the wave. The establishment GOP and the Democrats both want to suppress that wave. Maybe DeSantis wants to ride the wave, but he’s not the wave either.
JackWayne:
DeSantis declared yesterday. Why not wait to see who endorses him, if you care about endorsements.
yes lets see how it goes, some of trumps reactions have not been very mature,
you may not be interested in the culture war, but the culture war is interested in you,
Frederick:
Trump is not perceived by his rabid supporters as a professional politician, but he is perceived by everyone else as very much a professional politician at this point, and a very narcissistic one at that. He has done virtually nothing else but be a politician since 2015.
I am anti-NeverTrump as well. But I think at this point he’s poison in the general.
I also agree that a huge overhaul is necessary, but a big part of that IS the culture war as well as the rest (Breitbart knew that). I see DeSantis as organized, calm, and intelligent, as well as aware. He did something similar in building support and structure in Florida, which is one of the reasons so many down-ballot GOP wins occurred last election.
I think you need to be careful about jumping on the DeSantis bandwagon too soon. Well, jump on if you must but don’t belt yourself in too tightly. Not because he’s an establishment plant or anything like that. (Though I don’t rule it out, I also don’t rule it in and won’t consider it unless there’s real evidence.) But because we still don’t know enough to commit and there’s no real reason to commit at this point. There was a big push among rightwing writers and bloggers and Fox News commentators earlier this year to dump Trump and it fell on its face. It was so obviously manufactured. But I get that there are still a lot of people who are real conservatives but are Trump averse or Trump-exhausted, tired of defending him and in search of a new face.
Here are some things to consider:
1. Is DeSantis the next Scott Walker?
2. DeSantis is not a charismatic speaker at all. There are big downsides to this. He’s not going to inspire the loyalty, and yes, the love, that Trump inspires, nor the ease of comprehensibility and communication. Trump is very charismatic and only rarely relies on teleprompters but will say things that are uncouth. Think very very hard about whether this is really so terrible. He is who he is. It’s an authentic presentation. He doesn’t need to be your friend or your avatar. What’s more, most people, even those who hate Trump, don’t really take the uncouth stuff to heart. We’re all used to it at this point whether or not we choose to admit it. The genuine energy behind Orangeman Bad is played out. Now it’s all paid for by Soros & Friends.
3. Are you just hoping for a candidate that Crazy Cousin Stuart who graduated from Princeton won’t send you stupid memes about on Facebook? Want to be able to hold our head up at Book Club? Not have to deal with assholes mocking your politics in the Doctors’ Lounge? Keep hoping! No matter what candidate gets nominated, those stupid jokes will keep coming. Smug and stupid is 4evah!
4. DeSantis is already under attack by the left. You’re still going to be playing defense against a leftist mob of fools who will say and do anything to trample our guy under foot but this is a new guy and we don’t know what they’ve got on him yet, or (rather) what they can make up about him. It will be stupid and will resonate with half the population because they’re stupid, too.
5. Trump’s legal troubles are also a bonus for him. He is the ultimate victim of the deep state and he’s got the scars to show it. They’ve thrown everything at him, and will continue to do so, and he keeps truckin’ and if they really had something real on him we’d know by now.
6. Trump downside: his age. Still, he appears to be just as energetic as ever. Let’s see how DeSantis looks a few months and “scandals” down the road.
Keep your powder dry. The real fight is yet to come. I find it distasteful that we have to have this entirely unnecessary fight first but so be it. At least RFK, Jr. is out there giving the lefties a much worse case of agita.
AMartel:
Jumping on a bandwagon doesn’t mean you can’t jump off.
I also am puzzled by all this judgment about what sort of speaker DeSantis is. As I’ve said, no one is Trump except Trump in that regard – he’s very entertaining. People have gotten used to being entertained, like craving a drug. That’s not how I pick candidates. But my larger point is: how many people saying what a bad speaker DeSantis is have heard him speak more than once or twice? I’ve seen his back-and-forth with the media many times, and I find him anything but dull. I find just about ALL set speeches dull, including Trump’s.
It’s not a foregone conclusion that DeSantis is dull. He’s merely more dull than Trump, the wisecracking entertainer.
In addition, as I’ve written several times before, DeSantis will be demonized by the left and Democrats (and of course the EverTrumpers too) every bit as much as Trump. That’s a given for any GOP candidate with a chance, who’s conservative – or even who isn’t conservative. I strongly believe that the left would prefer to run against Trump rather than DeSantis, because they think their chances are better against him.
1. Back in 2016, even after the presidential nominations were set, Never-Trumpers commented here. I often responded here that Trump (who had been near the bottom of my list of the Republican primary candidates) was not the vile, lying, corrupt criminal Hillary. If I remember correctly, none of the Never-Trumpers ever expressed in writing their preferring Trump over Hillary prior to Trump’s being sworn in as POTUS in January 2017.
2. In view of the totality of the circumstances, Trump was a great president.
Lists of some of Trump’s accomplishments can be seen, among other places, here:
•https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/opinion/2021/01/trumps-top-10-accomplishments-of-2020-opinion.html
•https://truthandliberty.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Trump.Accomplishments.FINAL-1.pdf
•https://www.columbian.com/news/2022/nov/27/letter-trumps-accomplishments/
We gotta recognize that perfect should not be made the enemy of either the good or the great.
3. Trump is the one who got us here. Sure, we had the Tea Party and governors like Scott Walker and Greg Abbott. Yet, Trump is the guy who really set things in motion. Trump made recognizable the war against The Swamp that others had been fighting. Now, we may have SCOTUS opinions coming down the pipe that might substantially reign in the Administrative State. For example, today: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-epa-clean-water-act/
4. Ron DeSantis is the real deal. Even though DeSantis doesn’t use the term MAGA, and even though Only-Trumpers may disdain acknowledging the true character of DeSantis’ performance as governor of Florida, DeSantis is MAGA through and through.
5. I love Trump. Trump is super smart. DeSantis is super smart, and probably has a better handle on political process. Based on what I know now, if I were granted wishes on the outcomes of the next 3 presidential elections my choices would be Trump, DeSantis, DeSantis.
6. However, based on what I know now, if I were the one to select the next Republican candidate to run in the sure-to-be-hotly contested 2024 presidential race, I would pick DeSantis.
i foolishly thought the midterms would turn out better, that combination of fraud and annui, that they would kick witch hochul out on her broom, same for whitmer, but some people have a capacity for humiliation no matter the consequence
of course fetterman, was an abject exercise on how much contempt they have for the traditions of this country, I did feel sorry for him when he had his stroke, but those that have enabled him,
even before the election, they made it very clear that trump was due process, no sanctity of his property, while the converse is true with the scranton mob clan, I suspect this motivates the stalwarts as well his remarkable record, despite overwhelming odds
Trump’s legal issues are not a bonus for him, at least not with the voters he will need to pick up if he is going to win. They may be a bonus for the Only Trumpers but by definition they are with him any way.
I don’t know if DeSantis can win the general but I know he has a better chance than Trump because he has upside potential whereas Trump is maxed out at about 46-47 percent and there are not enough people willing to switch to him after all this time. His entire act is so tiring that a lot of people just reflexively go against him even to someone as horrible as Biden.
And don’t discount the age factor which is greatly neutralized if it’s Trump.
@neo:he is perceived by everyone else as very much a professional politician at this point
I think your exhausted patience with Trump may be leading you out onto a bit of a limb here. I’m really not sure what your source for that could be. DeSantis is not a bad guy, could quite possibly do better than Trump, but it doesn’t hold water to say that Trump is a “professional politician”, especially contrasted with DeSantis who really is one.
A “professional politician” has networks of advisers, staff, funding, etc from the national party he’s part of, think tanks, special interest groups, etc. DeSantis has these things. Trump is notorious for never having had them (and frequently criticized for it; his lack of them is why he had so much difficulty staffing).
A “professional politician” has spent the majority of their career, and derives the majority of their income, from government service. Are you saying this is the case for Trump? It certainly is for DeSantis, who graduated Harvard Law School in 2005, went into the Navy as a lawyer, and then appointed as Special Assistant US Attorney in the US Attorney’s office, then into Congress in 2012, leaving Congress in 2018 to run for Governor of Florida, where’s he’s been since.
This does not make DeSantis a bad guy, or mean he wouldn’t be better than Trump. But DeSantis has had no professional life, apparently, outside the cursus honorum of government, and that’s only if you think JAG doesn’t count as “government”. Yes, he taught at a private school for a year between Yale and Harvard Law School.
It’s true that Trump ran for office in 2015, held office in 2016-2020, and runs for office now. But he’s had a very long and very public career of doing many other things and this is not true for DeSantis. You don’t describe Trump as a “professional wrestler” but it wouldn’t be much more of a stretch than “professional politician”.
If you ask random members of the public about Trump, they can tell you any number of things: real estate, Wrestlemania, the Art of the Deal, the hotels, the steaks, Atlantic City casinos, his TV show, and that he was President. Most of them have not yet heard of DeSantis and if they have know him only as Governor of Florida.
I remember that jack smith was among those that went after bob mcdonnell, and did the bank shot against cuccinnelli (to make way for slithy tove mccauliffe, who was in partnership with mayorkas)
I agree with AMartel’s well-written comment on May 25, 2023 at 6:49 pm, except,
(a) where AMartel is agnostic on the issue, I have no doubt that DeSantis is no secret RINO or GOPe. (Of course, I acknowledge the possibility that I’m wrong.)
and
(b) I’m not sure I understand or would endorse AMartel’s paragraph numbered 3.
Ira,
I think he means no matter who the republican nominee is they will attack as ‘literally Hitler’ and all that.
But there are degrees to this and Trump is the extreme where one gets the feeling of constantly defending the often indefensible. That may be worth it if he could win but he can’t so it is like banging your head against a concrete wall. Accomplishes nothing.
By “boring” I primarily meant whether or not a politician can hold the average person’s attention. Not whether they engage in invective etc. There are many aspects of good and bad presentation styles. If many listeners don’t actually know what a politician has said, it’s the kiss of death IMO.
Sorry neo. It’s not about how you pick a candidate. It’s about how the electorate picks a candidate.
I don’t think DeSantis is very boring. Just moderately so.
I don’t find DeSantis to be dull at all. I find his interactions with the media to be entertaining, and to me he seems to be a quite good speaker.
As for Trump, I’ll vote for him again if he wins the nomination, but I’m sick of the childish nicknames, and I’ve been appalled at the incredibly dishonest attack ads that he’s been running against DeSantis here in Michigan. Even if Trump wins he’ll be a lame duck. He has a great record to run on and should stick to that instead of trashing fellow conservatives. We will need someone like DeSantis in the future.
I’ve followed DeSantis closely. I’ve heard him speak on many occasions.
I’m not in thrall to any politician. They all should be interviewing with us for the job, and we should boot them out if they don’t perform, for our priorities.
Trump had his shot at the job, and he was unfairly and viciously attacked by the Deep State and every institution captured by the Left. He accomplished a lot of good, but he also dropped the ball on some big issues. Didn’t fix the border, treated foreign policy as transactional without geopolitical smarts, and badly botched the whole Covid response. He was a terrible people manager and unnecessarily threw away too many voters by his behaviors. Since the 2020 election he hasn’t behaved with wisdom or the national interest.
He totally lost me with his 2022 performance, I take it personally that he imposed John Fetterman on Pennsylvania, and the ridiculous and pathetic Doug Mastriano even caused the state House to flip to the Democrats.
For 2024 he is way too old, and even if he were to be elected, how would he fill his administration? Anybody halfways competent would be crazy to work for the guy given his track record with staffing, so the country would be stuck with fourth and fifth rate grifters. No, he no longer has the interests of his followers in mind, it’s all about him and his ego.
Time to move on, and get somebody younger in there. Vivek Ramaswamy is a very bright and capable guy, but has no political offices in his resume. DeSantis has a great track record of achievement, so he bears watching. Heck, I would even vote for Asa! rather than Trump, and Asa! is too dang old himself.
If Trump is the nominee, I will sit out the general election, or do a write-in. He’s only doing this well because most of his followers are still looking backward and want a re-do of the 2017-2021 Trump term. It doesn’t work that way, we have to vote for the future, not to settle scores from the past. If they don’t come around to realize that, I guess the whole movement will have failed.
Meh, I just hate that we have a guy who did really great things as President, against all odds, but we let the media tell us he’s unacceptable. It makes me sad. He made all the right people go absolutely crazy, brought a lot of good people into the party, and woke a lot of people up. Those people are not going to be inspired to vote for a generic Republican. DeSantis is (probably) a great guy. He’s definitely doing great things in Florida. He’s got more going for him than the average generic Republican, but so did Scott Walker. Walker had battled, and won, in his state before he ran for President. But it didn’t translate. A governorship is not the same as playing on the national stage. I don’t want to run DeSantis down, truly I don’t. But it’s WAY too early to dump Trump. We just don’t know enough about DeSantis yet. Dreamcasting the race a year and a half out is (I guess?) fun but it’s not based on any reality. I’m going to wait and see.
Re [ADDENDUM: Ace says it all, and then some.] My comment concerning ”DeSantis Signs Law That Strips Illegal Aliens of Their Drivers Licenses” = Immigrants can drive in Florida and every other State the same way I can drive in their country – follow the law and get an International Driving Permit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Driving_Permit
AMartel:
You write: “we let the media tell us he’s unacceptable.”
Who is this WE, kemosabe? I certainly don’t give a rat’s ass what the media says, as you should already know. And I doubt most of the commenters here base their opinion on what the media says, either.
And what is this “dreamcasting” bit? Seems like a strawman remark to me. I think everyone’s going to wait and see. People are merely discussing their opinions and impressions so far.
TommyJay:
I certainly don’t think it’s about my impression of DeSantis or whether I find him boring. Nevertheless, when I’m writing a post or a comment about my opinion or impression I state my opinion or impression.
I also don’t happen to think that most people need the constant sturm and drang of Trump to not be bored. Political speeches are almost always boring, however. I’ve written many times that they bore me and I usually don’t even watch them. And I certainly don’t know many people who are into watching a lot of them except political junkies.
And Biden is so boring it’s painful, unless he’s making some terrible error of one type or another.
However, if the Republican voters choose Trump in the primaries because he doesn’t bore them as much as DeSantis does, that certainly is a criteria that will be irrelevant to who wins in the general. No Biden voter will change his or her vote to Trump because he’s less boring than Biden, or shy away from DeSantis because Biden is so much more riveting than DeSantis.
Frederick:
If you define the term narrowly enough, then of course Trump is less of a “professional politician” than DeSantis. For one thing, Trump didn’t accept a salary for his political position and DeSantis has, although that’s not really the issue here. Perhaps you mean that Trump’s only political position was president, whereas DeSantis has held other political offices.
DeSantis was first elected in 2012. Prior to that, he’d been a teacher, a naval officer and lawyer in the Navy (2004-2008), and then a lawyer. He was thirty-four when first elected. He’s forty-four now. Seems pretty varied to me, considering how young he is.
I have LESS than zero respect for anyone who sits out the general election. And less than that for posers who pretend they are doing so because they are morally superior (see e.g. Libertarians and their idiotic “the lesser of two evils is still evil”.)
Either choose to participate by selecting one of the two choices that have any chance to win or choose to abandon your fellow citizens. That’s it.
Every politician is flawed and subject to corruption (just like the rest of us). Whoever wins will engage in ugly, unseemly sausage making. Every damn one. Every damn time. To complain that you do not have the perfect candidate to vote for is simply to bitch about being a member of humanity living in a society.
Hold your damn nose, stop being a Pharisee-wannabe, and pull the lever for someone. It’s the only responsible course of action for any citizen who is a patriot.
Ira:
Your comment about NeverTrumpers here is a bit confusing. By definition, the term “NeverTrumper” means a person who will NEVER vote for Trump under any circumstances. Why would you think such a person would say he or she would vote for Trump over Hillary in the general? That would mean the person wasn’t a NeverTrumper.
My recollection is that there were quite a few “hold my nose and vote for him in the general” types here.
I’m not sure when Trump figured out he had been had by Barr and Fauci.
Plus being impeached twice is hard on any administration.
Or when the media / internet etc went into over drive on censorship of Trump.
Perhaps this explains your Fall 2020 change. After the election he has been censored, so you only get the negatives.
I wish Trump had gone further on a lot of issues, especially critical race theory.
Trump is a tragic figure, that was/is betrayed by his own party, since he got elected.
I respect what DeSantis has done in Florida, and I wish more states would follow.
With the voter fraud issue, see Kari Kake, or a Rasmussen tweet on the Ny voter rolls, I’m depressed on the chance of a Republican winning Potus. And the Gop does not seem very focused on fixing voter fraud.
I also have a gut feel he got rolled on voter fraud. He should have done more before the election to prevent it. My guess is he was reassured it was being handled pre election, and post election it’s too late.
But I guess that’s just my anger taking over.
Yes, I think it is. Not much moderation here today.
RaySoCa:
I noticed the change in Trump in the fall of 2020 prior to the election. It was right after he had COVID and was released from the hospital. This was about a month before the election.
I also consider him a tragic figure, even a near-Shakespearian one. I wrote about that here.
@neo: Prior to that, he’d been a teacher, a naval officer and lawyer in the Navy (2004-2008), and then a lawyer… Seems pretty varied to me…
My description at 7:12 pm was a bit more detailed, and the variety is less evident:
went into the Navy as a [JAG] lawyer, and then appointed as Special Assistant US Attorney in the US Attorney’s office…
Government lawyer, Congress, Governor is a well-trodden political career path.
Perhaps you mean that Trump’s only political position was president
I said quite a bit about what I meant in my 7:12, which you’re mostly passing over. Your prerogative of course. No need to repeat it as the original is there.
Frederick:
I didn’t pass your post over. It was what I was referring to when I wrote: “If you define the term narrowly enough, then of course Trump is less of a ‘professional politician’ than DeSantis.” I was agreeing with you, in terms of your own definition. And then I was adding some further thoughts.
@ Catherine 100% agree – especially this: “…he won voters that had not voted in several elections. … Trump courted them when both parties deserted them.”
@ Nonapod Nice work.
@ Frederick 100% agree – especially this: “but it doesn’t hold water to say that Trump is a “professional politician”, especially contrasted with DeSantis who really is one.”
@ AMartel 100% agree: “He’s got more going for him than the average generic Republican, but so did Scott Walker. Walker had battled, and won, in his state before he ran for President. But it didn’t translate. A governorship is not the same as playing on the national stage. I don’t want to run DeSantis down, truly I don’t. But it’s WAY too early to dump Trump.”
I’ll add that Walker was hands down my first choice, and when this happened – it did not translate – 100% respected him for recognizing that and dropping out.
I am always puzzled by commenters who argue 18 months before the fact that neither Trump nor any other Republican can possibly win the 2024. It is an Electoral College impossibility – just name a single state that was stolen from Trump in 2020 that any Republican can win in 2024 or ever again. The Democrats have perfected election fraud and there is no point in even trying to win.
I suppose it is possible that someone that defeatist is still interested enough in public debate to hang out on blog like Neo’s just for the fun of doom and gloom.
But then I ask myself, if I was invested in getting Joe and his friends re-elected, wouldn’t it be smart to spread the word that “resistance is futile?”
You’re correct. Of course we didn’t know they were “Never” Trumpers for quite a while. And, those who make a point of the fact that they are holding their noses to vote for X instead of Y are doing very little to convince people actually on the fence to vote for X. In fact, they may be encouraging those people to vote for Y.
Notice in my 7:05 p.m. comment that there is nothing denigrating any Republican candidate. It’s a matter of who is better among perhaps several good-for-America candidates.
Just checked a few twitter feeds I haven’t looked at recently. Robert Barnes seems to be retweeting a whole lot of crazy Trump attacks on DeSantis. These are on par with the idiotic Trump ads claiming that DeSantis voted to end social security and medicare.
Trump trying to claim that DeSantis was terrible on Covid is just nuts. And we all know it. Trump was worse.
Do the Trump crazies not realize that stupid, ill-founded, unfair attacks will end up destroying their own credibility?
Look, Trump deserves a lot of credit for a lot of things. But if he insists on relentlessly punching below the belt, he won’t just annoy a lot of serious conservatives. He will motivate a lot of people to actively oppose him. And he can’t possibly win if he deliberately pisses off these people.
Twitter pole… T or D
https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1661514703707701249
Trump is definately not boring. He’s a brilliant showman. The problem is that he plays the heel. He’s motivating an audience, but he’s actually motivating a big chunk of that audience to vote against him.
Wow! This escalated quickly. We’ll be well over 100 soon.
> there is no point in even trying to win.
I will vote for the gop candidate, whomever that is. Not that it makes much difference in California. I can’t believe how insane the democrats have become. It would take a miracle for me to vote for a Democrat.
Robert Kennedy is bringing up a lot of radioactive topics, which I appreciate, but I have a visceral dislike of dynasties.
I have a mixture of anger, disgust, and frustration on voter fraud. A lot of that is targeted at the eGOP that aid and abet it. Our judiciary that turns a blind eye to it. Democrats for actually doing it. I can’t believe how brazen the Lake steal was, at least she is fighting it in court. Could she have won if she used Jay Valentines services?
My position is unless there are changes that address election fraud, I don’t see how a GOP candidate can win. I pray the gop party wakes up and views this as a life and death situation for our republic, but I’m pessimistic on this happening.
A winning strategy for the gop is go full culture war from school boards on up. The Democrats represent a tiny, angry, vicious, vocal minority.
Right now there is coordinated lawfare to push the trans agenda. Coordinated lawfare to push the trans brainwashing. frontpagemag has a post / article on this.
Which intersects with how a school district near me, Arcadia, went pro trans. They got sued under Obama. And a biological daughter committed suicide, after being brainwashed.
https://wesleyyang.substack.com/p/nobody-wants-to-meet-with-me-nobody
Virginia has a gop Governor due this issue.
Look at bud light’s sales. Yes, I saw Don Jr’s Trump on don’t boycott.
Or how fast target back pedaled.
Interesting…
Robert Kennedy believes Diebold machines stole the Presidency from Gore.
https://www.revolver.news/2023/05/rfk-jr-sparks-a-wildfire-us-election-fraud-becomes-a-blazing-issue-in-2024/
At least he is pushing election integrity.
Emerald Robinson substack has a post on the ownership / founders of the election companies. Eye opening.
I was leery of Mr. Trump, but was very satisfied with his performance as President. I would rather have a jerk that knows what he is doing, than a slick, smooth operator who does not, or is a malefactor.
The problem that I see with Mr. Trump, is that he seems to be past his sell by date. If he is the candidate, I shall vote for him, but I think it might be time to move on to Mr. Desantis.
I find Mr. Ramaswamy interesting, but would like for him to get some political experience. I would not be at all surprised if he becomes President someday, and he certainly seems to have the smarts, but it is not yet time.
Probably the hardest thing we face, is the corruption of the Media. We need a better quality of Press. On the local TV station that I watch for the weather forecast, the meteorologists are the only ones I can bear to listen to. The Anchors are clearly just reading what’s in front of them, with no visible interest, or seeming understanding of what they are reading. This frightens me, as so many people just lap up what they are saying.
I have LESS than zero respect for anyone who sits out the general election.
Preach it!
I think Neo’s comments in this thread are very astute.
It seems that many Americans’ minds will have to change, to stop the country from going over the cliff. Perhaps events will cause them to do so.
I voted for Trump twice. I think he has been grossly vilified. This is a man who has built skyscrapers, not an idle politician. But, Trump is undisciplined. He constantly shoots himself in the foot. He is inarticulate.
DeSantis won my heart when he flew the illegals to Martha’s Vineyard. It was a stroke of genius to thus invade Obamaland and point out the democrats’ insincerity. In fighting Disney’s depredations, he fought them before most of the world knew of their depredations in Florida
I’ll vote for either in the general, but will support DeSantis in the primary. Trump’s greatest assets are also his biggest liabilities: the name calling, blatant lies, etc. DeSantis seems like Trump without the negatives. To insist that he’s a conventional Republican in the Paul Ryan mold is clearly insincere based on his track record. It would be wise for the EverTrumpers to get over their emotional attachment to The Donald. Our country is what matters, not Trump, as much as I despise how he’s been treated by the Left. If DeSantis can win over independents without alienating the Trump base, it goes without saying that he’s better positioned to win the general than Trump, who faces obvious hurdles with significant voting blocs.
Also, as a new-ish commenter here I’d like to point out I’m not a closet lefty on Soros’ payroll trying to sow division among Republicans. 🙂
Posted the comment below to another comment made to Neo’ May 24 post: Will Biden’s unpopularity matter in terms of the 2024 election?
Strikes me that it is relevant to many comments that have been made since then in other Neo post – and is definitely the ‘Elephant in the room’ for this election too.
BTW – this has been added to Neo’ post: Pingback:Instapundit
*****
@AesopFan Nice work. Want to follow-up on this part of the “historical” record.
“Nixon refused to consider contesting the election, feeling a lengthy controversy would diminish the United States in the eyes of the world and that the uncertainty would hurt U.S. interests.”
After a friend shared this article with me – please see link below – decided to do some research, and this is what I shared with him:
1) Nixon did not publicly challenge the theft, but his campaign did so privately and tried to prove the theft before the electoral votes were cast.
2) Agree with the author that it was a significant mistake by Nixon to not challenge the theft – PUBLICLY – but note the Dem/ Left/ MSM narrative is so prevailing that even this author is repeating it (i.e., [Nixon refused to consider contesting the election]…for good of country)
3) Some citizens refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the abnormalities & questions – the same criteria used to question elections in other countries – as long someone they did not like, and his supporters, were harmed. They gave no consideration to the harm done to the country.
https://amgreatness.com/2021/04/09/blame-it-on-richard-nixon/
Pingback:Instapundit » Blog Archive » NOT IF WE DON’T CLEAN UP OUR ELECTIONS. WHAT, YOU THINK ALL THOSE COMMUNIST LEADERS WITH 100% OF THE
no you are quite sober, I don’t like some of trump’s latest antics, I might vote for desantis in the primary just because of that, the diebold machines were part of the 2004 tantrum, that the late john conyers and other put on, had they not stolen it in 2020, the dems would have mounted a similar tantrum like they did in 2017, on inauguration day, where dc looked like a warzone,
It is true that any Republican challenger will have a hard time but Donald Trump has a zero chance of ever being preisdent again. Douglas Murray in today’s New York Post has another brillaint article.
“DeSantis vs. Newsom would be a ‘24 battle of ideas — not a Biden-Trump clownshow”
https://nypost.com/2023/05/25/desantis-vs-newsom-would-be-a-24-battle-of-ideas-not-a-biden-trump-clownshow/
Catherine
“If DeSantis doesn’t court them, including by acknowledging the fraud in 2020, they aren’t coming out to vote for him.”
That is completle and utter nonsense. There are a small loud group of fanatics who will not vote for anyone but Trump but the overwhelming majority of the millions of Trump voters in 2020 (that inculdes me) will gladly vote for Ron DeSantis. By the way Trump’s refusal to acknowledge that he lost in November, 2020 is one of the reasons whjy he is such a posionous candidate and his popularity outside of his cult base is in the toilet.
On 1960:
— JFK’s cousin wrote a book about the phone conversations b/w Daley and JFK on election night where Daley kept assuring him that he would produce however many votes were required to win Illinois.
— Anyone who reads volume 3 of Caro’s bio of LBJ knows that Texas was stolen. Same way LBJ stole his senate seat in 1948. Blatant and egregious.
— Tom Wicker was a left-wing columnist for the NY Times. He HATED Nixon. In his book on Nixon he gave him credit for only one thing — his decision to put the country first during the Cold War by not going public with the theft of the 1960 election.
As for 2000 and Florida, the Democrats blatantly violated a Federal Court injunction as Gore’s lawyers told election officials in Dem counties to throw out legit military ballots. And given what we know now, I don’t believe the network “mistake” to call the state for Gore while the panhandle stronghold for Bush was still voting was innocent.
All this is important to understand. Democrats at the highest levels, including lawyers and judges, were and are 100% on board in supporting whatever crimes are required to gain power. They will lie, steal, cheat, slander, abuse and even revoke the constitution to win. Whatever it takes. See the Florida Supreme Court in 2000. Every Democrat involved was fully on board with the theft — judges, lawyers, candidates, election officials, journalists, voters.
There isn’t a Democrat official anywhere in America with a shred of morality or ethics. Hasn’t been in over a century. Think I’m overstating things? Go research the responses in Nashville and DC when newspaper editors in East Tenn cities begged the Governor and the President to stop the Democrats in McMinn County, Tenn from stealing the 1946 election with 150 armed thugs. The veterans who had fought for freedom around the world during WWII had returned and they had sworn they were no longer going to put up with dictators at home stealing elections and abusing the law. But Dem dictators (generally referred to as Bosses) ruled over counties and cities all over America. [See Caro’s vol 3 for numerous examples in Texas; Boss Crump who ruled Memphis and chose every statewide winner in Tenn for 50 years; Daley in Chicago, etc.] So the Battle of Athens had to be fought and won. Democrats running the state and the federal govts had no problem with armed thugs declaring themselves election winners. Not as long as the thugs were Democrats.
the dems never admit they lost, not in 2000. not in 2004, not in 2016, their first bout of delusion was with the october surprise theatrics, that was almost 10 years after the events in question, when they commit innapropriate behavior with subordinates in office, they tell us to move on, hence the organization that birthed
the raggedy ann sock puppet, of course david brock runs a full service smear shop for soros (called media matters)
Bob Wilson
I agree, he is a terrible judge of people and the reason is his fat ego. Anyone who “once said (or wrote) nice things about me in the past” is A-ok in his book and that includes Kanye West (ahd his odious buddy Nick Fuentes), Hershcel Walker, and Dr. Oz. Let s not forget his saying that Ted Cruz’s father Rafael had something to do with JFK’s assasination, and “I prefer people who were not captured” remark about McCain’s 6 years captivity in the ‘Hanoi Hilton’ prison (Trump would not last a week there), and his use of childish insults such as “Meatball Ron”, “Ron DeSanctimonious”, “Little Marco”, as well as praising people such as Gavin ‘Lockdown’ Newsom and Charlie ‘turncoat’ Crist told me that when Trump speaks about RINO’s he needs to look in the mirror to see the biggest one.
There’s nothing to watch at the twitter space, it was audio only. But there’s a transcript (h/t Althouse):
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/florida-governor-ron-desantis-announces-2024-presidential-run-on-twitter-spaces-with-elon-musk-transcript
I read the Scott Atlas book, and didn’t get the impression that the main reason for Trump’s response to COVID was that Kushner was in charge. My reading is that the main issue was the pact between Fauci, Birx, and Redfield: the three of them agreed they would all quit if Trump moved against any of them, and apparently Trump’s political advisors told him that if that happened he would lose the election. My conclusion from this is that Trump cared more about winning the election than he did about ending the lockdown. I can’t respect that.
Trump was smart enough to bring Atlas in, but did not have the guts — or perhaps he didn’t have the knowledge, or the intelligence — to trust Atlas when it mattered. By contrast, DeSantis clearly made his own informed decisions based on the actual evidence. He changed directions when he learned enough to do so. I respect that. So if I could choose, I would pick DeSantis over Trump. But I think the main thing that matters (maybe the only thing) is defeating the Democrats. I am hoping Trump and DeSantis will team up in the end.
hershel walker vs that Hamas loving thief warnock, no contest, nick fuentes is a non entity, al sharpton directs government policy, don’t even get on that redacted
mccain, who still lingers on us like jacob marley’s chains,
“By the way Trump’s refusal to acknowledge that he lost in November, 2020 is one of the reasons whjy he is such a posionous candidate and his popularity outside of his cult base is in the toilet.”
Squeezes so much error in such a small space. The election was stolen. Period. There isn’t any rational argument for believing otherwise. None.
And Trump is clearly not poison and his popularity extends far beyond his base which isn’t a cult.
Heh. At the DeSantis site, RonDesantis.com, they’re already selling t-shirts saying, “DeSantis breaks systems. We already broke Twitter; now help us break Washington.”
he lost in six of the most rotten boroughs in the country, fulton, wayne, dane, maricopa, I’m sure I miss one, there are second order complaints and then there are first, they put up fetterman, just to show you how much they have contempt for the people and the system, then they lock up peaceful protesters for up to 18 years, seriously, while giving a pass to actual terrorists, which they are smuggling into the country,
Another point about the differences: DeSantis, in Florida, has aimed directly at getting leftist indoctrination out of the schools, from K-12 right through the public universities. This is crucial if we are ever to have a chance to reclaim the country.
I thought Trump’s showmanship took the edge off political disputes. That seems not to have been the prevalent opinion. The things I found entertaining were the things that turned a lot of voters off. They wanted normality. And now the routines are getting stale and look petty. Not good news for Trump.
DiSantis, though, seemed like a Hillary Clinton to me. He’s the dogged politician who tries to bulldoze his way through obstacles — rather than figure out a way to get around them and outwit his opponents — and in the end gets nowhere. Maybe I’m wrong about him. It’s still early. If the things I liked about Trump actually hurt him, then he’s also likely to get bogged down in Washington.
If posters are pessimistic about 2024 it’s because of the Republican fizzle in the 2022 midterms. The country and the economy were not in a good place and it didn’t hurt the Democrats very much. The Democrats had a lot of money and wisely targeted the races they needed to win. Not much has changed since then, and with Ronna McDaniel in charge not much is likely to.
I wonder about the desire for “normalcy.” From what we’ve seen in Biden’s “return to normal,” normalcy seems to mean corruption, stagnation, and decline. I don’t want a return to normal politics. I’m not saying I want radical politicians and radical changes, but I would like a recognition that “normal politics” is what got us into the current mess, not and escape from it.
“Normal” politics doesn’t mean a return to what many of us would regard as a “normal” society. The forces pushing for destructive changes are too entrenched in the government, and the inertia and ineffectuality of politics as usual does nothing to dislodge or counteract them.
Well, the republican circular firing squad will now begin in earnest.
If Trump wins the nomination you can expect many republican voters – if they follow their normal behavior – to not vote for him and instead not vote for president at all or vote for the demokrat nominee in the general election.
Regardless, the dems will not even have to cheat to get their guy – who will be Robert Kennedy Jr – into the oval office.
Biden was chosen four years ago by the Party’s elites because they had nobody else to choose.
They do now.
Robert Kennedy Jr anti Vax (big pharma), anti cia/fbi, and anti election fraud makes him too radioactive for the Dems Power Brokers to be nominated.
Those are the three areas I probably agree with his stance too…
“Regardless, the dems will not even have to cheat to get their guy – who will be Robert Kennedy Jr”
I say probably, because I’m not sure on his Vax stance. There has been a huge increase in autism and after the lies on the Covid Vax testing were exposed, plus the flu shot, I don’t know what to believe on vaccines anymore.
Steve Kirsch and IGOR CHUDOV in their substacks are asking questions that are troubling. One of them, is Why do the Amish have such a low autism rate?
Trump is a tragic figure, that was/is betrayed by his own party, since he got elected.
I agree. I think VD Hanson has called him a “tragic hero.” I think, with Biden, there is a real chance for the GOP to win in 2024. Cheating will be present but maybe not enough. I also agree that Trump seems to have lost his touch when on the topic of DeSantis.
On the Covid thing, DeSantis clearly was right. Birx was going around the country trying to get all governors to shut their state down. Several threw her out of their offices. I’ll try to find the page where Atlas blames Kushner for resisting Trump’s desire to open the economy. I think it was more about Trump firing Fauci and Birx, specifically. Kushner opposed that before the election. At the end of the book, Atlas comments, “But they still lost.”
VDH is a classicist. A tragic hero in the classic tradition fails when his own vices become to much for his virtues to overcome. I believe that is the context for VDH calling Trump a tragic hero. VDH is not wrong.
I wonder if Trump has had to go more controversial to break through the media / internet censorship/ bias since Fall 2020?
After Jan 6, he was totally censored by all the big internet companies. And YouTube is still at it. Fox was not far behind.
The only time I saw news of Trump after Jan 6, was when he said something super controversial. It’s gotten a little better since he declared his candidacy, the state lawsuit that has exposed the state censorship complex, and the Twitter files dropped.
Democrats must lose the next election or America is dead.
Trump must not be the GOP nominee. He will lose the vote to some sorry , perhaps senile, corrupt Democrat
I contributed to DeSantis yesterday. He can get the independents, but Trump cannot. DeSantis needs to be our next prez, or the country is dead.
Abraxas:
I find the Hillary comparison odd. To me, there is zero resemblance. For one thing, DeSantis got where he is without following in the footsteps of a more well-known spouse. And his record of accomplishments in Florida is quite large and done quite speedily.
I think this is a good analysis — the author looks at DeSantis vs. Trump as a fight for The New Right:
https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-desantis-doctrine/
Here’s an excerpt:
“For all the oddity and embarrassment of the launch event, I couldn’t help thinking that it might be a sign of the future. This was the post-2020 Right on display. The events of 2020 radicalized a portion of the New Right and sped up its rejection of politics-as-usual and its embrace of state power. The aftermath of 2020 sent Elon Musk on a journey from Biden voter to staunch Republican.
This is a Right shaped by the government response to the pandemic, by the “mostly peaceful protests” over George Floyd, by the tech suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story. It is a Right that distrusts every word it hears from its left, because it believes official narratives are by nature false. For the post-2020 Right, free speech is more than a political principle. It is a way to tick off the wine moms. It’s a rallying cry against institutional arrangements dedicated to American decline.”
(I don’t think Musk is a staunch Republican, but I think the essence of the point is correct.)
I don’t think DeSantis has the finesse. He’s too straightforward. He doesn’t have the charm either. But we’ll see.
no he’s more diplomatic in some ways, he took cues in the anti zombie crusade from rufo, from the leading scientists to formulate his health response,
Frederick:
You claim that Democrats are unbeatable in 2024 due to fraud and therefore a set of unflippable states.
I get the idea, but I’d like to see some detailed discussion. Have you got a good link for that?
I’m surprised at the amount of Trump skepticism I’m seeing in this topic.
Not that I disagree, but it seems to mark a sea change here.
@ huxley > ” it seems to mark a sea change here.”
When situations change, so do our opinions.
I have it on the best authority!
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/07/22/keynes-change-mind/
@ Sarah Rolph > “There’s nothing to watch at the twitter space, it was audio only. But there’s a transcript”
Thanks so much for posting that link.
I much prefer reading what someone said, than what other people claim was said.
And reading is preferable to listening, as I can’t dial back and “relisten” to something, so that was great, even with the transcription errors (you have to learn to interpret spell-checker-ese).