What will happen to Daniel Penny? And what should have happened to Jordan Neely?
In case you somehow missed the story, Penny is the man who has been arrested and charged with second degree manslaughter for subduing a raving Jordan Neely on the New York subway, and whose chokehold (that word is continually used but rarely defined and explained) appears to have caused Neely’s death. Penny is white and Neely was black. If it had been otherwise, this case would never have received the attention it’s gotten.
There is so much unknown about this case that it’s hard to speak intelligently on the subject – not that that stops most people from airing very strong opinions on the guilt and innocence of the parties. We have conflicting testimony about what Neely was saying and doing prior to Penny’s actions. We don’t know much about so-called chokeholds and what they’re intended to do versus their risks. Apparently, Neely didn’t die on the scene; he died in the hospital later on. We don’t know if Neely had ingested drugs, and if so, what type and how much.
We do know that Neely had a long rap sheet that included an unprovoked assault in which he injured an elderly woman by punching her in the face, and an attempt to kidnap a 7-year-old child, and he also had punched an elderly man. One might question why these acts – he was convicted of the punching – didn’t generate enough jail time to keep him in custody. Here’s the apparent answer:
Neely was ultimately charged with assaulting Baltazar [the elderly man] and the case was eventually adjudicated, but the result was sealed, the NY Daily News reported.
Two years after the assault on Baltazar, Neely was once again arrested for punching a 67-year-old female in the face as she exited the New York City Subway system. Neely pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 15 months in an alternative-to-incarceration program that he could complete in order to get the charges reduced and face no jail time.
But, at the time of his death, Neely had a warrant out for his arrest when he skipped a court date to check up on Neely’s progress in the program.
That’s quite a system.
Of course, it’s not easy to know just what to do with people such as Neely who actually do seem to be suffering from mental illness and commit criminal acts of the sort he favored. We used to lock them up in mental hospitals (or prisons) and sometimes throw away the key. Those days are long gone, and re-instituting them long-term would be quite the civil liberties problem. It would also be extremely expensive. In other words, it’s not going to be happening.
I’ve seen scads of articles saying that the mental health system failed Neely. But that ignores the fact that many many homeless people are suffering from mental health and substance abuse problems that are resistant to treatment, and that many also will not cooperate with treatment. It’s not like mental health professionals have some panacea that’s being cruelly withheld. And even cities that have thrown tons of money at the problem – such as, just to take one example, San Francisco – find it is incredibly difficult to make any more than a tiny dent in it.
Meanwhile, people who ride the subways are at the mercy of those who might be both crazy and violent and willing to perpetrate violence. Whatever Neely was doing that day, it is very clear that he fit all those categories in the past and potentially at the time Penny subdued him. Both Penny and others on that subway car probably were picking up on many cues to that effect. Must they wait till they are attacked before they do something? How much warning is enough warning? How much force is appropriate force, and how perfect does a person have to be in applying that force?
I wish I could say that the trial will be a good opportunity to explore such issues objectively and come to the right conclusion, but I very very much doubt it. The incident already been sensationalized and twisted by the usual suspects.
NOTE: This New Yorker article has a pretty good discussion of the difficulties of dealing with the chronically mental ill, such as Neely.
I just saw a report that Penny has a defense fund someone has set up, and that it has already collected half a million dollars. I haven’t heard that he is in need financially, but in case he is, this should be a start. I wish him well.
Over $1 million now apparently in the defense fund.
He may stand a chance at trial if some of the comments at the NYT articles on this are any indication.
Penny’s defense fund.
https://twitter.com/GiveSendGo/status/1657454267576221697
Public transportation is an especially tricky situation. I’m still of the old school tradition that men give women their seats; especially women with children or “with child.” About 10 – 15% of the time women won’t take my seat, but if they stand I stand. Rarely will a mother refuse a free seat for her child(ren).
I’ve been in plenty of subway cars where an unstable person is being unstable, but I’ve fortunately never seen anything get precariously close to the edge of violence.
I don’t think we want to live in a society where able bodied men fail to restrain men who are a threat to women and children.
I disagree with you, Neo, that the New Yorker “has a pretty good article…”. I could not get far enough to read its “discussion” (with whom?) about the problems of dealing with the chronically mentally ill. The tone of the smug opening paragraphs put me off.
Neely’s autopsy has not been released to my knowledge. Maybe he was full of illegal drugs, like St. George was. Permanent institutionalization of psychotics like him, especially if violent, with a substantial criminal record, is the only solution, regardless of cost. Safety costs money! Passengers on subways are trapped with crazy felons like Neely as co-passengers.
The New Yorker is absurdly leftist. And it has a country-wide circulation. I regard it as a social poison. America has got to come to grips with the good/evil distinction, but instead we are getting softer and softer, like down pillows, busily finding excuses and arresting those that do good. The MSM all report that Neely was “killed on the subway” by Penny, though he clearly died in a hospital later on of unstated causes.
I should add; far too many people who have never been in an ad hoc, violent, physical situation weigh in with opinions and far too many assume things are easy that are not. In a fight with someone who appears willing to do violent harm he who hesitates loses. Adrenaline and aggression are important tools in a fight and once unleashed they can’t easily be turned off, like a spigot. From what I’ve seen Penny and the other two men who helped him did an incredible job of thinking clearly and not over-reacting.
A lot of people who have never been in a fight have strong opinions on a subject they have not experienced.
Cicero:
The New Yorker is of course leftist. That’s a given. And there are certainly things in the article with which I don’t agree or which I find annoying. Too bad you couldn’t get past that, though, in order to read the meat of the article, which is indeed pretty good in the sense of describing many of the problems and challenges in the field.
Neo:
I already know the “problems and challenges in the field.”
My brother is a psychiatrist. We talk!
Is treating mental illness and addiction impossible? How was it done back in the 1900-1960s?
We used to have vagrancy laws and didn’t allow people to sleep on the streets, camp in the parks, harass people, do aggressive pan handling, etc.
We pay taxes to the government with the expectation that they will maintain law and order. Without law and order, normal taxpayers cannot enjoy life, liberty, and pursuing happiness.
In Washington state there were three major mental institutions. Only one of them is still in operation. It holds some truly dangerous inmates. There are many dangerous mentally ill people who aren’t there. They haven’t yet committed the murders or maiming’s that lie ahead. Every time there’s a mass shooting, it’s usually another crazy person acting on their worst impulses.
People used to have a choice between addiction treatment or jail. It’s time to bring that back on a large scale.
I say enforce the law. Get the homeless off the streets – one way or another. Lock up dangerous people – even if they are minorities and/or poor. “Programs’ like the one Neely was in have not been proven to work. He should have been in prison or a mental institution.
I’m fed up with the SJWs who think that every criminal is a disadvantaged minority. What society should be focusing on is better parenting, better teaching of ethics and work habits, less screen time, and demanding that governments do their part in maintaining law and order.
Penny’s trial will be a circus. Thank goodness he’s getting some money to hire the best legal counsel he can. The BLM mob wants another Chauvin type show trial. I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen.
Cicero:
If you already know it all, why would you even attempt to read the article?
And by the way, talking to your brother the psychiatrist is hardly being well-informed on the subject. Also, does he live and practice in NYC and if not is he aware of the laws there? Does he deal mostly with street people who are schizophrenic, use drugs, and dealt with long-term mostly through social workers and police?
Neely had been arrested 42 times per Victor David Hanson’s report, including for lewd conduct, and had three convictions for violent behavior.
Plus, one of the three who restrained him was a black man (unreported generally).
The solution is permanent incarceration of men like Neely, period. Do not sing the cost blues to me! Punching an elderly woman in the face! His injuries of others were not remedied at no cost in money or suffering. There is no other solution.
Problem with involuntary commitment is that it is as much incarceration as prison, and is usually done with fewer or no protections provided by the adversary role of the defense attorney and jury.
In addition, mental illness is on a spectrum. For example, a stamp collector may bankrupt the family in pursuit of a big score and not be convinced it was a bad idea and not to do it again. The other end is only mildly delusional in which the philatelist is convinced that visitors are dying to see his collection. Somewhere in between commitment may be indicated but the line moving back and forth on the spectrum is arbitrary. And there is little or no way to tell if something different or far more severe might just…show up and retroactively make commitment look like a good idea. So there’ll be an urge to commit to avoid the possible.
Massive invasion of individual rights is likely or even guaranteed.
Hence, in addition to various lefty/woke/Soros motivations, an honest effort to avoid constraining individual liberty due to something one step worse than eccentricity is going to have the occasional Penny wandering around.
OTOH, a genuine crime should not be dismissed because the guy was mentally ill, and good poliiing will pick him up before things go bad. As to the latter, see lefty/woke/Soros plus NYC voters.
Cicero:
Sure thing. Life imprisonment. Great idea. When you are dictator, you can implement that. Till then, it’s not gonna happen – nor should it.
In gothams case wilhelms wife looted the mental health fund im sure similar situations obtain in other burgs under the best conditions its difficult but they make them more difficult than necessary as with everything
JJ:
I actually agree that Neely should have been in prison or a mental institution.
But it would only have been for a while, and he would have been out on the street again. And there are plenty more like him out there. The scope of the problem is much bigger than back in the 50s and 60s.
I have a friend who was committed for three years in the 1960s. It was a horror story. The de-institutionalization movement had a point. But they went way too far. The halfway houses that were supposed to take up the slack never really materialized. One of the problems is money, another is NIMBY.
Neo- it used to happen, when you were younger and before it was litigated that psychotics had civil rights and could refuse their aanti-psychotic meds I personally committed psychotics to a “State” hospital for the mentally ill. They were released only with the psychiatric staff’s blessings.
With the Neelys you seem to favor a revolving institutional door. Social workers are generally useless in dealing with violent psychotics.
As for my brother the shrink, he does not have to wallow in garbage to know what it is.
Sure thing. Life imprisonment. Great idea.
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He’s been arrested 42x. How many x has he been prosecuted? When not, why was his case allowed to slide? Note, courts, prosecutors, and public defenders are not big budget hogs and there is a reserve army of those admitted to the bar who cannot make a living at it.
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IMO, all sentencing rules in penal codes should have in them a formula of enhancement for repeat offenders. The enhancement would be a function of points you’d been awarded for past conviction, with the points for each a function of the severity of the offense.
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While we’re at it, fines should only be an option for (1) offenses defined outside the penal code; (2) for corporation defendants; and (3) as supplementary penalties for the most minor offenses. You get a modest fine when an extra day in jail is too much. Probation should only be an option for defendants under 25, and the rules should allow only for partial substitution of probation for imprisonment, not full substitution. Restitution and forfeiture should be supplementary penalties only. Labor services should be imposed only when a defendant welshes on his fines, restitution, and forfeiture.
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This man should have spent a lot of time under penal supervision. And not on probation or on parole, but incarcerated. Him being a kook would just mean he’s deposited in an asylum which is an annex to the prison rather than being in the general population.
Cicero:
Not only do I know it used to happen, I’ve written about it here and elsewhere. And you don’t know what I favor. I certainly don’t favor lifelong incarceration of all potentially violent mentally ill people as determined by Cicero. But otherwise, I am merely describing the system that exists, not approving of it.
You make a lot of invalid assumptions about me, once again.
I think the homeless and their treatment by society is maybe the most perplexing issue to me among the many that trouble us now. Somehow the left seems to think it’s dignified to allow and even encourage these people to live on the streets or wherever and somehow it is the one’s who say that is inhumane that are called cruel.
Here in the state of WA it is just about everywhere now. What started in Seattle has spread out to the suburbs and south to Pierce county where I live and now they are just everywhere along main streets. And it has spread to smaller cities and towns also. The smallish coastal area where I grew up in that never had a problem in the 70s, 80s,90s, 00s now has numerous homeless camps.
Not far from where I live there was a large sprawling encampment right along I-5 that was there for about three years and was scary as hell to drive by and had numerous people shot, OD’ed and a few died in tent fires. Finally the city cleared it out and in a matter of days about a mile away they took over a wooded area right next to a main street and it now makes the slums of Calcutta look like Beverly Hills.
Every normie you talk to whether right or left doesn’t understand the thinking that leads the state (and in WA it is mainly the state gov’t) to do nothing.
It’s plain evil no matter what angle you come from.
Social workers are generally useless in dealing with violent psychotics.
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My own suspicion is that social work is a pseudo-profession and that the licensing boards and ‘professional’ schools should be shut down. For child protective workers and the like, you might recruit from the ranks of junior grade psychologists, nurses, and sheriff’s deputies and send them out for cross-training certificates. Train counselors in clinical psychology programs. Train aspirant civil servants in schools of [non-business] administration. Train the rest on the job.
If Daniel Penny was a black person, he would never have been indicted.
It’s very obvious that black lives do not matter one iota if the killer is a black person or if a black person’s death was caused – however inadvertently – by other blacks.
But NYC denizens vote into office charlatans like Bragg, Letita James, et. al. This is not unique to NYC. It’s no different in Chicago, Baltimore, Newark, etc.
The lesson in all of this is if you are a white person and in the position to help a person subjected to any sort of attack, you best walk away.
Art Deco:
Most of his arrests were for minor nonviolent infractions. The child and the 2 punches were different.
John Tyler:
As I said, any other racial combination would have garnered far less attention.
Perhaps no prosecution, or prosecution for a lesser offense
Neo- what is your solution? I proposed one, which you shot down, but you offered no alternative.
Cicero:
There is no perfect solution. The best approach, however, is to balance the competing values of liberty and protectcion more reasonably than is now happening. Current approaches don’t do that, nor does your approach, although they are opposites from each other. I think that there needs to be more teeth and enforcement and that suddenly punching an elderly person should get longer incarceration than Neely ever received, either in prison or a mental institution. But I don’t fool myself that that is a SOLUTION. It is a much bigger problem that involves a huge breakdown in society and a war against the values of western civilization, waged by the left.
I still need to watch Nate the lawyer’s video on this
The social service bureaucracies are fraught with peril see cps in any state but when ny makes it habitually harder by misallocating resources then restricting law enforcement
Neo wrote: “It is a much bigger problem that involves a huge breakdown in society and a war against the values of western civilization, waged by the left.”
A response to this issue is going to require a multi pronged approached, no doubt. But Neo, I think your statement above gets to heart of what we’re facing, a war waged by the left. It recalls for me the line by Theoden King in Lord of the Rings: “‘So much death, what can men do against such reckless hate?” The left seems to be consumed by a “reckless hate,” and the Jordan Neeley’s are just one of the results.
A depressing article. No solid example of a way out for either the mentally ill or those who are forced to live close to them. I have no idea of a solution for large cities. But the article emphasized to me the importance of living in a rural setting away from large cities. In a small town if someone was urinating on the street or licking the ground they would be noticed and directed to care. The care may not be as organized as New York but the mentally ill wouldn’t just slip through the grate into the sewer.
About 15-20% of homeless people are in need of help and will take an offer of services to help them get out of being homeless. They’re getting help in Snohomish County where I live. The police and social workers make the rounds of homeless camps each week and offer services.
The other 80-85% are either addicts or mentally ill. The addicts should be offered treatment or prison. I would establish a farm type facility in eastern WA where the addicts would be dried out and then putt work on the farm along with necessary group therapy (much like AA). The removal from the temptations of the cities, along with being in touch with the land and animals might result in a higher success rate in kicking their habits. It would probably be cheaper than what’s being done now.
The mentally ill homeless I would force into screening to determine the best course of treatment. Many of these people could function normally if they were made to take their medications. Only those who were diagnosed as dangerous to themselves or others would be institutionalized. Institutionalizing would require a judicial hearing with evidence and would be subject to periodic review. It would be expensive, but it would be far more compassionate and worthwhile than what is happening.
This is the United States of America. We are the wealthiest country in the world. We won two world wars. This problem is not insoluble. We waste billions on green energy boondoggles and other wasteful programs that are used to buy votes. We just need leaders with some common sense and backbone to step up.
Also, this cannot a short-term program. As long as there are drugs and mental illness in society, continuous work will be necessary to combat the problems. Too many political fixes are done with a short-term focus. This is like maintaining a house. It has to be done continuously as long as the nation is functioning.
The homeless problem is primarily in blue cities. I don’ think that’s a coincidence.
Neo wrote: “I certainly don’t favor lifelong incarceration of all potentially violent mentally ill people as determined by Cicero.”
As determined by me? No way. I think the medical staff at lock-up psych hospitals determine the duration of a Neely’s stay.
Besides, I would never go into psychiatry, were I younger. It is the most politically liberal of medical specialties, the diagnoses can be oddly fluid, reclassified from an “illness” to a normal state, as happened with homosexuality, and psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate of any specialty.
I prefer reason in medicine!
Cicero:
But what laws and what guidelines are those doctors on the staff following, and what are their attitudes towards people such as Neely? Right now there’s not enough money for long stays, and laws tend to prohibit it unless the person has committed a crime like murder, so long stays are highly unusual and certainly would never be given to an offender like Neely, which is the vast majority of offenders.
You wrote (my emphasis), “Permanent institutionalization of psychotics like him, especially if violent, with a substantial criminal record, is the only solution, regardless of cost.” That’s what I was referring to when I wrote “as determined by Cicero.” I was going by the standard you had already set as being your own standard: permanent institutionalization of psychotics like Neely.
Here is a breakdown of the subject matter of Neely’s 42 arrests:
I would like to see Neely’s actual history with mental health treatment services; that information hasn’t been released yet, as far as I can tell, and may continue to be secret.
@ jj – The other 80-85% are either addicts or mentally ill.
That may be what the newspapers say, but the counter-evidence is in all those posh encampments supported by their inhabitants (who are industrious and ingenious in acquiring and erecting tents, chairs, tarps and all the furnishings), and by the ‘non-profits’ who ensure the flow of money, materials and food and drink to the residents – at great profit to a few of their officers, and salaries to their grunts. In Seattle that ‘flow’ exceeds $100 million annually, and OF COURSE attracts and increases demand.
In short, there’s a big fraction of those ‘pobrecitos’ who are living high on the taxpayer/nonprofit hog at no cost to themselves and no reason whatever to do productive work for anyone else.
JJ”
One of the big problems is that, unless people are institutionalized, they often stop taking their medications.
The Soros backed Cultural Marxists DA’s run these Kangaroo Courts with picked Leftists and letting out criminals without any time .
Wish I knew if Neely was mentally ill or a product of this Democrats/ Socialists Propaganda Ministry he is owed by society something. Seen many videos of Black wantonly destroying a business watched by dozens and filmed and not a care in the world something will stop them or arrest them.
Another drawn out Rittenhouse type ending. A threat was encountered and dealt with. If races were reversed it wouldn’t have been reported. imo
I like the idea of farm camps that JJ talked about above. It might even do me some good. Not because I suffer from addictions so much as simply doing something productive on the land as opposed to being in an office chair.
Most of his arrests were for minor nonviolent infractions.
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Doesn’t matter. Posit a mix of class A and class B misdemeanors for which the average spell in jail is 9 days. In a sensible system, he’d be housed alone in a rubber room and receive no parole. Parole for misdemeanors in New York is at the discretion of the sheriff at any point two thirds of the way through the determinate sentence pronounced. Given a sensible set of enhancements for an offender with three dozen previous offenses, he’d at this time be serving 3x the mean for each offense; 1.5 x 3.0 x 9 = 40 days. At a rate of 4.2 offenses per year, he’d be put away for five months of the year. An improvement over what the courts have been doing with him.
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The problem, of course, is that our public institutions are slatternly, the courts are venues for lawyers to play footsie with each other, and criminal justice everywhere is infected with the idea that social work is the business of the courts. It is not. Punishment is the business of the courts.
Art Deco:
“Doesn’t matter”? Doesn’t matter in terms of WHAT? It certainly matters in terms of sentences. Or are you suggesting that an arrest for an open container of liquor is the same as an arrest for shooting someone? Or some other type of felony? I am assuming that you know that of course the type of offense matters.
I actually have said in this very thread that I think he should have gotten a significant amount more jail time than he ever got. Perhaps he should have been involuntarily committed for a longer stretch, as well, although we don’t know his history regarding commitment, mental health treatment in general, or involuntary commitment.
So I fail to see your point.
I was citing the type of offense for which he’d been arrested in order to make a point to Cicero, who felt that he should have been involuntarily committed to an institution for life.
I suspect you have homeless camps for a mess of reasons:
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1. Ill-considered land use regulation that removes the lower rungs of the housing market (flop houses, rooming houses, apartments with shared kitchens).
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2. Building codes which are not so written as to set priorities in re applicable regulations in slums. (Reducing the quantum of slum housing).
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3. Attempting to collect property taxes in slums, which generates property abandonment and arson.
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4. A weak philanthropic sector which hasn’t set up sufficient emergency shelters and community food cupboards.
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5. States cheaping out on asylum beds.
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6. A failure of local law enforcement to roust loiterers.
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7. Rent control.
“Doesn’t matter”? Doesn’t matter in terms of WHAT? It certainly matters in terms of sentences. Or are you suggesting that an arrest for an open container of liquor is the same as an arrest for shooting someone? Or some other type of felony? I am assuming that you know that of course the type of offense matters.
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You need to re-read what I said.
Art Deco,
Maybe some of those reasons are at play in the homeless camps but at least in WA they are all secondary to an atmosphere of policy towards crime (especially drug use). Drug possession of any crime is not currently illegal in this state thanks to a state supreme court ruling and a complete breakdown of the state legislature to pass a legislative fix.
This has led to the streets becoming an open drug den and the Sound Transit light rail system in the Puget Sound area is basically a homeless camp/drug den with a side of rapid transit right now.
All of this has made this a popular place for drug addicts to come and just use to their hearts desire with absolutely zero legal consequences.
All that zoning crap you listed is the exact things the Homeless Industrial Complex here likes to spout and is way down the list of reasons because even when they propose low income housing they come with no rules at all so they just turn into lawless drug dens.
I can’t speak for other cities but anybody that has to live in the Seattle/Tacoma area knows this and sees it every day. The city/county and mostly state has no interest in doing anything to fix this it’s just whack a mole. Knock ’em down here and they pop up there and then repeat.
Psychotics do not, can not, think or reason normally, Someone like Neely can suddenly decide God wants him to be violent. We cannot predict when, nor deny the chance of such an event.
We daily see violence in our cities, shrug and accept them. The criminal justice system cries out for improvement. When did you hug a cop? You know, those that charge into the line of fire to take down a shooter?
We should be nice to psychotics? Why not institutionalize the Neelys for life? Gives them food, shelter, medical care, gets them off the streets and out of the subways. Means fewer homeless! Our asylums used to serve that purpose before Dr. Thomas Szasz et al. denied mental illness even exists. What is freedom to a Neely?
Philip Sells is on the right track.
See also
The 3 jewels of Taoism are helping drive the Rural Renaissance
This documentary was made by the ABC affiliate in Seattle in March 2019. FOUR years ago and it is worse now. A lot worse.
‘Seattle Is Dying’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw
The homeless are not the problem. The mentally ill are not the problem. A return to a policy of tough love can address those issues.
The radical leftists are not the problem for they can do little without the enablers.
The voters who enable the radical leftists are the problem.
No progress in addressing this issue will occur until the source of the problem is faced.
Those voters, however well meaning are enabling the cutting off of the tree’s limb upon which we all sit.
My response here may cause some to clutch their pearls. That is okay.
The solution is simple. Those who demonstrate through their conduct that they are unfit to roam free in a civilized society should be removed from it.
Either through incarceration or execution.
The discussion here seems to fall victim to every other cultural discussion- the left sets the talking points, and we fall back on our heels and try to react. Oh, he’s mentally ill.
Oh, society failed him. Etc.
Great. What of the victims. Who advocates for them?
What happens with folks like Jordan Neely? Simple. They are culled from the herd before they victimize someone else.
We are not in need to discuss how to handle him, or those like him, how to rehabilitate him, etc. He has demonstrated through his actions that he brings continued risk of harm to innocent persons.
He who brings harm to others shall have harm brought to himself. It really is this simple.
Fortuitously, Mr. Neely is now fully rehabilitated at no cost to the State, courtesy of a Hero of the Community. No longer will any subway riders need to fear his shoves or any small children fear his grasp.
This is the way.
@ Geoffrey Britain The voters who enable the radical leftists are the problem.
BINGO! And the voters of King County, in addition to maintaining the scores of ‘Black Lives Matter’ signs in their posh residential districts, are voting as if cheering for Comrade Stalin’s 4-hour speech, and all terrified of being the first one to quit.
It’s a splendid laboratory example of groupthink – strongly supported by the Seattle Times, which doesn’t allow a speck of the real world of consequences to glimmer between the paragraphs of police defundment, endless hate against Donald Trump, and demands for additional funding of the ‘non-profits’ of the Homeless Industrial Complex.
It won’t be until Victor Davis Hanson’s observations on the similarity of this sort of government with the end of the French Revolution connect with the disgust of the mistreated taxpayers of King County combine, to product a sudden shocking turnover of this mindless status quo. But it’ll have to get worse before it gets better.
Insufficiently Sensitive at 7:52 pm said:
“….by the ‘non-profits’ who ensure the flow of money, materials and food and drink to the residents – at great profit to a few of their officers, and salaries to their grunts. In Seattle that ‘flow’ exceeds $100 million annually, and OF COURSE attracts and increases demand.”
You’re correct about the homeless NGOs. I’ve seen them in action at zoning meetings in the city council in Mt Vernon. (Where I used to live.) I was amazed at how many different organizations there were that championed for the “low income/homeless” people.
Such organizations are not making the problem better. As you say, they make it easier to live in the encampments. That doesn’t mean that a lot of the homeless aren’t addicts.
Neo, for people who won’t take their meds you could have a low security facility like a hospital where they could be supervised. Some might be able to hold down a job while living at the facility. I’m thinking about people who aren’t dangerous, just unable to hold a job when off their meds.
I am aware of a facility in Michigan for the homeless. It’s a kind of dorm. There is supervision, timers on the showers, locked doors between rooms for men and for women. There are other differences between a residence and an institution.
The people who worked for decades with the homeless, breakfasts, shelter in the winter, know the problem..
It isn’t lack of housing.
Most homeless lack the organization to get and keep a home. They can’t keep it up, at risk to themselves and neighbors. they have no social credit, which is to say no friends or relatives who will take them in; not after the last time.
Or, and this is different, they don’t want to have to have the organization. T hey’ll are what comes as a result.
And, given that mental health exists on a spectrum, some want disorganization, and it gets worse…and worse. Until homelessness isn’t the problem, the desire to push somebody off the subway platform is the problem. And until that happens, you cannot tell one from another.
So maybe guys like Penny shouldn’t be prosecuted.
Unlike the professionals, the rest of us are “on scene” when something goes sour.
Penny and his helpers were on scene. Neely,as it looks now, may have died of some comorbidity which would not be unlikely among those with similar lifestyles.
Just imagine a case where another Penny says to someone in trouble, “I’d love to help you, buddy. But I’m white.”
Grunt is on the right track.
1st offense: probation
2nd offense: short incarceration for X days
3rd offense: 2X days
4th offense: 4X days
Etc.
We’ll have a lot of people incarcerated, but the streets will be safe, and we can use the money we now waste on rehab to fund the incarceration.
No rehab?
No, not until we find a way that really works more than a small fraction of the time, at a reasonable cost.
Whatever it is that makes people crazy and/or do drugs is at this point a lethal mutation. We currently have no way to fix it, and it’s wrong to subject normals to futile attempts at curing the incurable at their expense (both financially and physically).
By all means, continue small scale research studies to find a way to fix the problem, but current policy of throwing money at the problem and ignoring the costs of failure are not acceptable.
All that zoning crap you listed is the exact things the Homeless Industrial Complex here likes to spout and is way down the list of reasons because even when they propose low income housing they come with no rules at all so they just turn into lawless drug dens.
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If I’ve ever seen a statement by a social work lobbyist which indicated the slightest interest in markets and how they operate, I cannot remember when. I’ve seen complaints about suburban zoning (often valid in my view), but that’s part of the general habit among gliberals and leftoids to lob accusations at people.
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IMO, except for building codes, land-use planning, and zoning waivers (the administration of which are strictly local), the government ought to get out of the real estate business (and that includes the projects, the direct subsidies, the tax preferences, thee regulatory harassment of lenders, and regulatory arbitrage by vendors). I think we can be fairly confident that low income housing will emerge to meet demand if you do not choke it off with ill-considered regulations, ill-considered attempts to exact tax revenue, and a failure to enforce rental agreements. It will emerge in many parts of the metropolis, but be concentrated in slums and sketchy neighborhoods adjacent.
and demands for additional funding of the ‘non-profits’ of the Homeless Industrial Complex.
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The Census Bureau in 2010, making use of a broad definition of vagrancy, estimated there were at any one time fewer than 600,000 vagrants in the United States. Maintaining emergency shelters and community food cupboards to care for that number of people is something which can be accomplished with private charity. The role of local government should to assist with security in an around shelters &c and to roust loiterers.
Methinks the “Biden” strategy is to make the entire country unliveable…
…while expanding their “voting base”.
(Gosh, how DO they think they’ll manage THAT?…heh…)
Those voters, however well meaning are enabling the cutting off of the tree’s limb upon which we all sit.
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Ha ha. If I’m not mistaken, in-person voting has been eliminated in Washington state.
There is much talk here about the barriers to solutions that the sheer cost of dealing with the mentally ill present but, looking at the New Yorker article, has anybody tried to total up the total amount of money that New York has thrown at this problem?
It seems like a collosal amount of money–spread among numerous programs and initiatives–has been spent to little effect.
It seems to me that the idea of “the greatest good for the greatest number” comes into play here i.e. if the general population is threatened by the violent acts of a small number of people, then that small number has to be removed from a position where they can do harm.
Oops, should be “voter base”…
The focus here is on the mentally ill.
But a question that seems too little asked in discussions of this issue is, what is the overall cost to members of the general public, in terms of their quality of life, their ability to live their lives and to have “quite and peaceful enjoyment” of their lives and property?
Maybe I’m being too cynical, and I’m sure that there are many sincere people trying to help the mentally ill but, from the way it looks, in a lot of ways, this whole attempt to deal with the admittedly intractable problem of the mentally ill seems like it has evolved into a permanent and very lucrative jobs program for various “advocates” and NGOs.
from the way it looks, in a lot of ways, this whole attempt to deal with the admittedly intractable problem of the mentally ill seems like it has evolved into a permanent and very lucrative jobs program for various “advocates” and NGOs.
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The political economy of the Democratic Party is to sluice income to their client populations. The teachers’ unions, the trial lawyers, Hollywood, the social work and mental health trade, higher education, the media.
Note, see Marc Hinshaw’s True Urbanism: there used to be a wider variety of housing options for impecunious people. See also Thos. Sowell’s account of his life as a consumer of housing. He’s always lived in ‘affordable housing’, because he only rented places he could afford.
While we and the elites of both the Left and Right, most of whom would not be caught dead on a subway, theorize and pontificate, the normal folks like Mr. Penny and the men who helped him are left to deal with the mess we, the elites, have made of their society. Its seem to me that the least we can do is not get in their way.
Thank to the many derelictions of our elites, the Mr. Penny et al find themselves living in a modern day version of “West of the Pecos.” Judge Roy Bean and Mr. Penny are two versions of what self-reliance look like and we had better get used to it.
I don’t know what should have happened to Neely, but what DID happen is that he died. The circumstances of his death make it a manslaughter, almost by definition.
Penny absolutely should be charged.
Whether or not he should be convicted depends on whether or not the death was justifiable, as determined by a jury – which is what juries are for.
My guess is that it will be hard to empanel 12 people in NYC without at least one who has more sympathy for Penny than for Neely.
I’m sorry. I finally quit reading comments. I worked in a VA psych hospital in 1961 when I was waiting to enter medical school. To understand the problem with psychotics, who use to be half the “homeless” when I was teaching medical students read My Brother, Ron by Clayton Cramer. Cramer also used to have a blog. This was a middle class family trying to deal with a psychotic son/brother. Long term institutionalization is the only thing that works. That may not mean totally locked up because the VA patients that I worked with had the option to go to half way houses but these were run by trained people who were taught what to watch for.
The UCLA professor who was the director was brilliant and this was before the newer drugs came out. One of his residents at UCLA wrote a book describing his methods. It was called “Reality Therapy.” If you can believe this, it was once recommended for teachers in the LA public schools !
I was so impressed by this professor that I considered psychiatry as a specialty. Until I met other psychiatrists.
Maintaining emergency shelters and community food cupboards to care for that number of people is something which can be accomplished with private charity.
I used to take my medical students to the homeless shelters in Los Angeles. This, of course, was before the great explosion of addicts that ballooned it. The shelter directors told us that half were addicts, alcohol and drugs, and half were psychotics. Half of each group was both. There were enough missions and shelters around that part of LA that the homeless could at 5 meals a day if they wanted to. I don’t know about the greater numbers now but I do know that the billions spent on the “homeless” now would fund a number of mental hospitals.
@ Mike K – The shelter directors told us that half were addicts, alcohol and drugs, and half were psychotics.
That’s fine for the shelters, but out here in the real world of the Homeless Industrial Complex, a large fraction of the population is quite competent in scrounging/stealing/begging goods and supplies to construct camps, large and small, where living is cheap, law enforcement is absent, and ‘non-profits’ and City departments abound to furnish the werewithal for groceries and transportation and the various chemicals which enhance their lives.
And the taxpayers – those who robotically vote in Seattle’s ultra-progressive governing bodies – furnish vast sums to support the practice.
The circumstances of his death make it a manslaughter, almost by definition.
Penny absolutely should be charged.
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Only if (1) he was attempting to injure him, or (2) he acted recklessly, or (3) he acted with criminal negligence.
rickf:
Ordinarily Penny would be investigated and not charged so soon. Then, depending on the result of a more lengthy investigation, he would either be charged or not charged. They also skipped the grand jury here.
/Mike K on May 14, 2023 at 12:29 pm said:/
Mike, on your recommendation some time ago (either here or on another blog), I purchased and read “My Brother, Ron.” It’s a wonderful book, a clear-eyed history of past policy attempts to deal with the mentally ill, and an extremely personal story of trying manage the same with a family member in today’s de-institutionalized environment.
I thus second your book suggestion to this commentariat…, if someone desires to learn about coping with the mentally ill from a first-person perspective.
“…to sluice income to their client populations….”
The KEY to BBB.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/bob-lee-stabbing-sex-drugs-lifestyle-san-francisco-5a7da970?mod=hp_lead_pos7
Miguel, I had suspected something like that.
I don’t know what should have happened to Neely, but what DID happen is that he died. The circumstances of his death make it a manslaughter, almost by definition.
Penny absolutely should be charged.
So, you agree with Bragg that no Grand Jury investigation was necessary and the mob knows best ? Jeeez !
RE: A statement apparently applicable to The “Homeless Industrial Complex”–but to many other causes/institutions/NGOs as well–to quote Eric Hoffer’s “The Temper of Our Time”
“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.”
@Mike K – So, you agree with Bragg that no Grand Jury investigation was necessary and the mob knows best ?
I don’t agree either. There wasn’t a mob – it was two or three guys who saw unwarranted violence against innocent victim by Neely, and confident (as is now common) that no security people would restrain it, did so themselves. Plenty of witnesses, no doubt of what happened. Neely died later, in hospital, so ‘murder’ is a doubly improper charge.
The action of Daniel Penney can be summed up as a public benefit – Neely’s intended victim was relieved of his illegally rough actions, and there’s no cause to convene a grand jury, since any honest prosecutor would be capable of deciding ‘no cause to bring charges’, given the clear facts of the case.
As of this comment Penny’s defense fund is at USD $ 1,920,425
Zombie Party, continued…
“Feinstein’s Health Crisis Goes Back Farther than We Knew;
“Staff for the high-ranking Democrat have for years had a system to keep her from walking the halls of Congress alone, sources tell Rolling Stone”—
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/dianne-feinstein-health-crisis-senate-resign-1234734590/
H/T Instapundit.
We ARE, INDEED, in the best of hands…
To paraphrase Dire Straits, “…and get yer [health care] for free…”
File under: Griftocrats.
Am I being overly cynical in expecting that Penny’s defense fund will be seized somehow?
I can’t recall if this was the context in which I posted the last two lines of Kipling’s “Tommy”.
In any event, I’ll do it again:
“An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool,
You bet that Tommy sees.”
Tommy is the rough man standing ready to do violence on your behalf. Bad enough getting dissed at a pub. Not let into a theater. Hence the implicit threat.
But prosecuted…. Lied about by leading politicians….
Tommy is the rough man. If he fails to report for duty, what are you going to do? Are you rough enough?
For OCD types, the above is metaphor.
rolling moss, yes I trust them implicitly,
At a million bucks plus, his attorneys should be hiring their own pathologist, because, with what has been reported as the coroner’s findings, he’s dead meat on a manslaughter charge.
A properly applied sleeper (not “choke”) hold places the crook of the elbow over the larynx and applies compression the the Carotid arteries, cutting off blood flow to the brain causing unconsciousness in 10-20 seconds. Held too long (3 minutes at the lower end) severe brain damage occurs, long enough will cause death.
Improperly applied with the crook to one side or the other, it compresses the airway and can collapse it, permanently. Even when released, the subject will die without a tracheotomy. Or it can displace vertibrae , same result.
A bar hold, with the forearm across the throat is a deliberate killing hold.
The possibility of death because of improper application, and actual of examples of same, is why many police departments (LA being the prime example) have forbidden neck holds, and those that allow it have strict time limits on how long it can be applied – at 90 seconds the subject will stay out long enough to get him (or her, don’t want to be sexist 😉 ) into restraints.
As a Marine, he was trained in the application of both bar and sleeper holds and taught the difference. If he applied a bar or held the sleeper too long, he is supposed to have known better.
Manslaughter, unless a different cause of death can be plausibly presented.
he died in the hospital, after he released the hold, that suggests another cause,
his attorneys should be hiring their own pathologist, because, with what has been reported as the coroner’s findings, he’s dead meat on a manslaughter charge.
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The prosecutors in Minneapolis and Baltimore managed to compromise local medical examiners. Anything a local coroner says in support of the prosecution’s case should be regarded with skepticism.
“he died in the hospital, after he released the hold, that suggests another cause,”
Anoxia causes brain damage, progressively. It’s possible to create enough that it doesn’t kill immediately, but is ultimately unsurvivable. Strokes, for example, rarely kill immediately.
Manslaughter, unless a different cause of death can be plausibly presented.
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No, in New York you’d have to demonstrate intent to injure, recklessness, or criminal negligence.
The discussion has to do with the carotid hold. The presumed point is that only a carotid hold was justified, since Penny is being defended as having used a carotid hold for submission and restraint purposes. But this is not the same thing as deciding what kind of hold would be justified. Perhaps a bar would be useful and justified. The initial discussion saying it’s not a “choke hold” but a submission hold seems to have opened the presumption that only a carotid/submission hold is justified here. IMO, that’s an open question. That it would have been a good idea doesn’t mean it’s the only legal option.
I used a hold against the larynx to stop a fight. It hurts and I’m in charge of how much more it’s going to hurt. The guy settled down fast. Had he wanted to fight, I might have injured him, but I’d have been justified given the circumstances.
…”I’d have been justified given the circumstances.”
Not if you’re an LA cop…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Los_Angeles_v._Lyons
budhaha
Touche’.
So when do we hear, “Love to help you, buddy, but I’m white.”?
We’re already at the point where helping a lone woman in chancy.