Religion and patriotism have gone out of style
This explains a lot:
The Monday poll [from the Wall Street Journal] questioned U.S. respondents about the importance of patriotism, religious faith, having children and other traditional U.S. metrics. The poll found that just 39% of Americans say their religious faith is very important to them, and just 38% say patriotism is very important.
The WSJ compared those numbers to the first time it ran the poll in 1998 when 62% of Americans said religion was very important to them, and 70% said patriotism was very important.
What a difference 25 years of leftist indoctrination makes.
Another result of interest in the recent poll: 80% of respondents say the economy is “poor” or “not so good,” and only 15% think it will get better in the next year. That’s quite a level of pessimism, but unfortunately I think it’s justified.
And yet, and yet – when people were asked which statement they agreed with that best described their opinion of the US, 21% chose “Stands above all countries in the world,” and 50% selected, “One of the greatest countries in the world, along with some others.”
Go figure.
Once leftists started to take over education and Christianity—and especially the moral values and expectations for behavior it taught and expected—were gradually then more quickly eliminated—all sorts of ideas and behaviors which are inimical to the survival of our Republic started to flourish.
A similar thing happened in the case of teaching love of our country, its history, major historical figures, and the resultant patriotism these subjects used to engender..
“One of the greatest countries in the world, along with some others.”
The “along with some others” part seems to allow for the US not being the greatest. But it’s odd that if people really feel that way, we’re not seeing more people attempting to emigrate out of the US to whereever they feel is the greatest.
There’s an article about poll results from 2017 on the World Economic Forum site that indicates that the United States was the top desired migration destination by far. It’s obviously a few years old now, but I strongly suspect that US is still the #1 desired destination by a large margin. If anything I imagine even more people want to migrate to the US since the pandemic.
The general desirability to migrate to a country may not be the only way to quantify its “greatness”, but it’s arguably one of the most significant ways.
P.S.—I’m not asserting that the above was the only cause of general decline in our country we are witnessing, but it is one of the chief factors.
There are also many and varied socio-economics events and forces contributing to the increasing chaos, violence, and general decadence we see all around us.
What sad poll results, money was the only “value” that went up.
Top comment @WSJ article:
“The title of this article is Americans Pull Back from Values that Once Defined U.S.
Looking at the graphs, however, shows that the title should be DEMOCRATS Pull Back from Values that Once Defined U.S.”
“Traditional American values” it says there.
So.
“Value”! — what is our “value”?
Would any — even one — of the founders and framers of the American polity (or nation) have spoken in this way with these terms?
Would such a one have any immediate idea what we are talking about should we magically transport to their time to speak to them in this way? Could we even adequately explain the source of this change of language or outlook from their speech to ours? Not merely to the founders and framers, but even to ourselves?
How is it with us if we — the general run of American people today who speak in this way — cannot account for this difference?
How then ought we find surprise at this dwindling (once presumed high) estimation or opinion of “religion” or “patriotism”?
[By the by, “style”, or more pointedly, “lifestyle” I leave aside entirely as I believe these would have been wholly unknown to our political forefathers in this context.]
It’s certainly bad that religion and patriotism are declining, but compare the condition of the US with respect to the rest of the world now with what it was 70 years ago or 100 years ago. Then, one could easily have said that we were hands down better off than other countries and maybe better than the rest of the world. Looking around now and considering how much other countries have improved and how much we have declined, the caveat “one of the greatest, along with some others,” isn’t unwarranted. That doesn’t mean I’d want to be a Dane or a Swiss or a Norwegian, or a citizen of whatever those great countries, but admitting that we aren’t perfect is a recognition of the way the world and our country are now. We excel in some things, but not in everything. We are still more of a work in progress than some other countries.
America is not its government.
That doesn’t mean I’d want to be a Dane or a Swiss or a Norwegian, or a citizen of whatever those great countries, but admitting that we aren’t perfect is a recognition of the way the world and our country are now
Saying that something is the “greatest” isn’t the same as saying that it’s perfect. If you’re selecting that the US is merely “one of the greatest” rather than the greatest, it implies that you believe that there is a greater country than the US overall.
Now, you can certainly zero in on a specific metric that the US is behind on (like k-12 education for example) and still believe that overall the US is the greatest country. In fact you could point out all sorts of problems we have in the US and find ways that certain other countries may be dealing with such problems in arguably better ways and still think the US is the greatest.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that when you’re comparing the US to other countries, you have to look at things holistically. And if you rate the US as “the greatest” that doesn’t mean you’re saying there’s not problems. I personally believe there’s a huge number of very serious problems with our government, our culture, and economic system. But at the same time I’d be hard pressed to name another country that is better overall even with all these problems.
The left’s attack on our civilization, on our democratic Republic, has been all encompassing—global in scope—and so have been the effects, which have insinuated themselves into pretty much every aspect of all the various spheres of our thought and life.
I was recently talking with someone about the affect of raising my children in a “religious” household. Whether my wife and I picked the “right” faith, or the “wrong” one, this is what it meant to our kids:
Generally at least once a week they had to put on some nice clothes and spend about an hour sitting still in the presence of a large community. They listened to philosophical writings and, typically, a 15 minute lecture by a theologian. Often, at dinner after church I would ask them what they thought of the readings, what the Priest said… Often one or more of us would have a different take, or disagree. They learned to think and defend their positions, as well as listen to the opinions of my wife, their siblings and me.
My wife and I happen to believe in the Faith we raised our children in, but even if a family has no shared religious belief, spending a few hours a week reading and discussing philosophy as a family has to bear some fruit*. Even just putting on some nice clothes, running a comb through one’s hair and getting out of the house and sitting in a group can be useful.
Children raised on cynicism and nihilism stagnate and wilt.
*Gee, it’s almost like the parable of the sower of seed. But that can’t be right. What do 2,000 year old people have to teach us enlightened moderns?
The culture of our professional-managerial class – especially the faculty – is certainly repellent. There are a number of other vectors at work, I think:
1. Chronic manifestations of scandal, frivolity, and mediocrity in religious congregations.
2. The failures of the political class.
3. The failures of the military brass.
4. General affluenza
5. Mass immigration, which brings in people without much affective attachment to the country’s heritage.
People like yours truly are less patriotic and less religiously observant because our institutions and the people in charge of them are sh!t.
stan @ 3:43pm,
That may be the one, single most beneficial thing for all Americans to understand.
America is the opposite of government. All humans have innate rights. Most all humans throughout all of history have lived among despots who use force to impose their will. We need to use the wisdom of our nation’s founders to halt tyranny and return full sovereignty to America’s citizenry.
Art Deco,
Don’t let selfish or misguided religious leaders keep you from being observant. Plenty of great men and women were extremely spiritual outside of a specific congregation, often in spite of a specific congregation.
“Whenever three or more are gathered, etc., etc…”
Spot on comments by Snow on Pine.
I’ve been hanging out in Dublin this week. It’s a bit like Chicago, but with no fear for one’s safety – which is nice.
Most all humans throughout all of history have lived among despots who use force to impose their will.
True. But could this at least be part of the explanation for American decline? At least in its idealism? Outside a billion humans living under one behemoth – China – most people now are ruled largely with the consent of the governed.
150 years ago all Americans agreed we were different. We were the example. We were what other nations should rightfully aspire to. We’ve largely won the war, if you will. Who needs a revolutionary when the revolution has been won? Or something like that.
Not sure how much I believe what I just wrote, but it is something I’ve long wondered.
To take just one corrupting influence, what do you think the effect is likely to be on children and teenagers if they are constantly immersed in video games in which they routinely slaughter innumerable “ enemies”—on a routine basis aiming and perhaps pulling the trigger many hundreds of times each day.
What might the psychological effect be, do you think?
I do not think that this is “harmless” at all.
Would such children and teenagers be more primed for violence, more inured to it, and apt to resort to such violence, or less?
And what about the vast numbers of increasingly realistic, graphic, violent movies?
This is the reason, besides my own spiritual condition, that I spend a good deal of my time and energies in support of a local Christian parish.
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations
He remains an . . .
https://youtu.be/u6_vyGuhkfA
Say what you will about the much more constrained and relatively bland entertainment of many decades past, it did not introduce and put into circulation and the public mind the flood of violent memes which today’s “entertainment” does each minute of every day, memes which are so inimical to and destructive of peace and public order.
Mike Plaiss,
I don’t see the correlation of the western world expanding and third world conditions declining accelerating America’s decline.
The Founders taught us all we are free. We are sovereign. Our rights do not come from government. If anything, far fewer Americans understand this today, than did 100 years ago. One would assume, if there were more examples of people living truly freely, the concept of individual rights would be even more obvious to Americans. Yet it is not.
I think a lot of it has to do with fewer Americans living in smaller communities and more Americans living in populous counties.
America is actually no less religious than it ever was; it is simply that the religion has changed. Whereas Americans were largely Christians (at least in the sense of identifying with an organized religion) they are now members of other “churches,” such as the church of woke, the church of social justice or as most recently emerged, the church of transgenderism. Mankind is simply incapable of not being religious; it is simply what religion will be practiced that is the question.
Meantime, UKRishi inquires: “Is it Humza or Hamza O YousafScottie, huh? Make up yer mind man!”
Mankind is simply incapable of not being religious; it is simply what religion will be practiced that is the question.
Well, I’d say Nietzsche came to a similar conclusion. That vacuum will be filled…with what…scares the hell out of me.
I don’t think it’s the decline of religion, though that has a definite influence. First and foremost it’s the takeover of the education system from K through BA.
Second, and I see this in my own daughters, the availability of travel to anywhere in the globe has shown many younger people that these other countries are “not so bad”. I thought giving our kids the opportunity to see Europe was a good thing. Now, I’m not so sure as being college age they didn’t have the perspective to evaluate, as to be more enamored with where they lived for a few months.
My nephew, who is close to 40, hasn’t lived in the US for 17 years. His job as a reporter has kept him in Taiwan and China. He regularly globe trots. I font think he has much sense of patriotism at all.
What has the jet age wrought?
The only culture we have is get the money. But we will pay dearly.
Religion, patriotism, morality?
Just do ANYTHING to win baby, win…. lie baby, like…cheat baby, cheat…and steal baby, steal…
It’s the Democratic Party way.
“Maricopa County admits they DELETED election data to hide it from auditors AFTER they got subpoena.”—
https://twitter.com/ps1ack/status/1636067031387709441
Another hard-hitting message on “TRANSPARENCY” brought to you by the Democratic Party of the USA.
File under: Of course we had to cover it up. You wouldn’t want us to get caught, would you?
If patriotism is in decline — and we’ve known for some tim — the decline in military recruitment is easily understood. And yet the Pentagon doesn’t know.
The Pentagon, under “Biden” is part of the scheme.
Remember: THE Number One Enemy for “Biden”‘s America is Climate Change.
On the decline in patriotism, Power Line links to a Gallup survey using consistent methodology for twenty years. It finds a decline, but not nearly as steep as this WSJ poll, which, the commenter says, has changed methodology.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/03/the-daily-chart-not-so-fast-on-cultural-doom.php
look at their so called blm loving personnel chief, bishop garrison, or the diversity officer, kailisa wing (she of the caudacity) people who loath their country with relish (and mustard) the capitulation of blinken and co, at anchorage (i use the post boxer rebellion term intentionally,) bidens coffee fetcher right out of harvard, then the beneficiary of the sinecure at the U pennsylvania, does anybody in policy circles believe in this country, does the people even care,
Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne’er within him burn’d,
As home his footsteps he hath turn’d,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour’d, and unsung.
Le Mot Juste–
Do you know Philip Larkin’s “Homage to a Government”? It’s about the loss of patriotism on the other side of the pond post-WWII:
Next year we are to bring all the soldiers home
For lack of money, and it is all right.
Places they guarded, or kept orderly,
Must guard themselves, and keep themselves orderly
We want the money for ourselves at home
Instead of working. And this is all right.
It’s hard to say who wanted it to happen,
But now it’s been decided nobody minds.
The places are a long way off, not here,
Which is all right, and from what we hear
The soldiers there only made trouble happen.
Next year we shall be easier in our minds.
Next year we shall be living in a country
That brought its soldiers home for lack of money.
The statues will be standing in the same
Tree-muffled squares, and look nearly the same.
Our children will not know it’s a different country.
All we can hope to leave them now is money.
PA+Cat:
Hmm. I’ve never seen a rhyme scheme like that:
ABCCAB DEFFDE GHIIGH
Except the rhymes are not rhymes but the same word or homophones. Interesting effect.
huxley–
Larkin’s poems typically have curious rhyme schemes, as well as being drenched in misanthropy. Do you know “This Be the Verse”? It was written some time around 1971:
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
PA+Cat:
Yes!
That’s the one Larkin poem I do know, I think it’s the one Larkin poem that everyone knows if they know one Larkin poem.
Perhaps I’m giving too much credit to Christianity, as the glue that held a lot of fundamental things together and gave them energy, but I’m also wondering if removal of Christianity and its formerly ubiquitous, pervasive influence from education (and, increasingly, the public square) hasn’t also lead to a decline in things that were not strictly “religious” in nature, like the work ethic, the idea of and pride in doing a good job, and general honesty.
physics guy: “What has the jet age wrought?”
Well, for me, a career flying people to their destinations.
And of course, “citizens of the world.” 🙁
I retired 30 years ago. My wife and I have used our pass travel privileges to see quite a bit of the world. Last count it was 52 countries. We have learned a great deal from our travels. Magnificent geography, different customs, occasionally an ambience you won’t find in the U.S., a sense of history you can’t get from the “new world,” and how truly different and difficult life is for many people in far flung countries.
We loved the game parks of East Africa and the verdant islands of New Zealand the most. China, and all of Europe have much history to reveal. Most of South America is terra incognito to most people (at least it was for us) and yet it has so much to offer a traveler who is intent on learning from their travels.
All that said, we never failed to appreciate coming home to the country we love. We’re not perfect, but our Constitution provides us with a plan to improve, if we follow it. Unfortunately, there are many who don’t like the Constitution because when it’s followed, itis hard to dominate the citizenry. At least that’s the way it looks to me.
People who don’t appreciate the USA need to open their minds to the realities of the world.
From Nonpaid at 2:21:
” … But it’s odd that if people really feel that way, we’re not seeing more people attempting to emigrate out of the US to whereever they feel is the greatest.”
I think other countries’ immigration policies are tighter.
Other countries are smarter about who they will allow to stay & participate in social services & have citizens rights.
America is waaay too sloppy & lax, giving too much away to people who overstay visas & disappear. Plus obviously, to illegals.
It’s tougher to go elsewhere & be treated as well.
Maybe most Americans know that … Or are too lazy to go find out.
PA+Cat: No, never saw those Larkin lines. Thanks! I wonder how far a right-leaning sensibility like his would get nowadays. Maybe further than I might think, at least if he weren’t canceled by woke librarians (and he a librarian!). I mean, my daughter who lives in England mentioned to me a few years back that she’d seen a stone only recently added in his honor to Poet’s Corner at Westminster Abbey.
Well…I’d argue for a different definition of “Religion” & say it’s still at an all time high. It’s just the foundational Christian faith that built Western Civilisation is what’s been subverted (from within as well as without). Snow on Pine is pretty close to the mark there. Was it Washington? “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.”
But in our time…the Green Religion is ascendant. The Sex-as-I-feel-inclined Religion has had its moments since forever, but it seems to wax & wane in season…waxing now in its more virulent aspects. The Critical Theory Religion is fundamental to the above…and seems to be holding its own. Of course the ancient “Greed is Good” Religion holds more than a few in thrall.
I’ll paraphrase something that’s been attributed to Luther…All religion is a sin against the first commandment. Scripture (Hebrew & Christian) outline a relationship between humans & God…it oft gets perverted into ‘religion’ but in its essence it isn’t intended to be so.
Patriotism has been devoured by Critical Theory. We’re bad…oppressors & all that. We’ll see what transpires.
Mike Plaiss: “150 years ago all Americans agreed we were different. We were the example. We were what other nations should rightfully aspire to. We’ve largely won the war, if you will. Who needs a revolutionary when the revolution has been won? Or something like that.”
Except I would say the “revolution” is never truly won. As Reagan said we are just one generation away from losing freedom. It takes work and inter-generational commitment to keep liberty alive.
That is one thing that makes polls like this so disheartening; if more and more people believe that love of one’s country and the continuation of that love to be to work/fight for one’s country doesn’t matter then our liberty and future generations’ liberty can be gone. Once gone it is harder work to bring it back than to have worked to keep it alive in the first place.
I remember years ago in graduate school I took a history class as an elective. One day it was very surprising (and very sad) to learn that I, and another student who was an undergrad in our grad level course, were the only ones to believe that patriotism was a good thing. Everyone else in class, including the professor, thought that patriotism was nothing more than jingoism and always – ALWAYS – led to fascism. So, not only did they think patriotism didn’t matter; they believed that it was a bad thing.
“Religion, patriotism, morality?”…continued…
Heh, lookee up! This here’s a real “good one”!
“James O’Keefe Uncovers Possible Lucrative Money-Laundering Scheme for Dems”—
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/catherinesalgado/2023/03/29/james-okeefe-uncovers-possible-lucrative-money-laundering-scheme-for-dems-n1682689
Opening grafs:
…[James O’Keefe’s] new journalism outfit, O’Keefe Media Group (OMG), just released a video uncovering evidence of what O’Keefe calls a possible “money-laundering scheme” for the Democrats. Some individuals reportedly appear to have donated thousands of times over a relatively short period to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars to ActBlue and Biden for President, based on Federal Election Commission records….”
So O’Keefe gets the info and decides to go door to door to ask the “generous” donors if it’s true. And what does he find? Well…the kicker is that some of them are not aware they’ve donated that much money, and deny it.
And so, the “possible” part of the “possible” scam is that someone(!) is using the name of those people, who have donated money, to increase the amounts of their donations by rather huge magnitude; in short, their names are being used without their knowing it.
Pretty darn clever!! (Kinda what you’d expect from those naughty national scammers.
Hold on! Innocent till proven guilty, right.
…But why SHOULD anyone assume that, with their record, they’re innocent of anything?
And that’s a damn shame…but that’s how they seem to want it. (IOW, they don’t care…and, to be honest, why should they?)
“traditional US values” like locking up and torturing people who don’t conform to the extreme religious values of their priests in “mental health asylums”?
Because that’s what happened a lot and still happens, and what a lot of people want to extend (back) to homosexuals, transgender people, mental health patients, and in cases even anyone who doesn’t prescribe to their branch of Christianity.
Forcing “morality laws” on everyone, including strict dress codes, especially for women.
Basically the Christian version of radical Islam.
I hear a LOT of Americans applauding Uganda’s radical Muslim government’s decision to make homosexuality a crime punishable by a mandatory death sentence and saying openly it should be the same in the entire world.
Do we REALLY want those “traditional values” back?
“A LOT of Americans” probably means some of the online weirdos, and not a lot of actual Americans living outside of the fringes of the internet.
No, I have some knowledge of radical Islam, and nothing here is like that, or ever was, outside of a few cults.
no we are going back to a bronze age culture of paganism, as jonathan cahn, has outlined, with modern technocracy to form a panopticon, now wiccans are worshiped and children are sacrificed, and mutilated, this is the modernity you are talking about
the sane people are in short supply, the maniacs are in power imposing their dark schemes, see garland preventing protesters from being arrested outside the Justice’s residences,
You see Draq Kween Starry Whore is now required for all, because otherwise .
……..The Spanish Inquisition. They have and accept no limits.
this is the weird world, western educated intellectual (forget the rest) that we’re defending in the ‘rules based international order,
uganda was in better shape under the Empire same with many of the Old Dominion countries, of course even airship one doesn’t believe in itself anymore,
they would ban newton and fleming of course robert fulton nowadays,
Do we REALLY want those “traditional values” back?
Boy, you sure have lived a tough life if you went through all that. I remember back to World War II and must have missed out on all that pathology you describe.
“traditional US values” like locking up and torturing people who don’t conform to the extreme religious values of their priests in “mental health asylums”?
I spent a summer working in a VA psych hospital and never saw one priest. I did spend hours talking to psychotic men. Then all those hospitals closed and left lots of psychotics on the street.
Here’s the Philip Larkin poem which has stuck in my mind:
Toads by Philip Larkin
Why should I let the toad work
Squat on my life?
Can’t I use my wit as a pitchfork
And drive the brute off?
Six days of the week it soils
With its sickening poison –
Just for paying a few bills!
That’s out of proportion.
Lots of folk live on their wits:
Lecturers, lispers,
Losels, loblolly-men, louts-
They don’t end as paupers;
Lots of folk live up lanes
With fires in a bucket,
Eat windfalls and tinned sardines-
they seem to like it.
Their nippers have got bare feet,
Their unspeakable wives
Are skinny as whippets – and yet
No one actually starves.
Ah, were I courageous enough
To shout Stuff your pension!
But I know, all too well, that’s the stuff
That dreams are made on:
For something sufficiently toad-like
Squats in me, too;
Its hunkers are heavy as hard luck,
And cold as snow,
And will never allow me to blarney
My way of getting
The fame and the girl and the money
All at one sitting.
I don’t say, one bodies the other
One’s spiritual truth;
But I do say it’s hard to lose either,
When you have both.