On the split on the right regarding the Ukraine war
You’ve probably noticed the split I’m referring to, on this blog and others. I’m planning a piece on the topic one of these days. But till then, I recommend reading this article. The author is far more familiar with and knowledgeable about Russia and Ukraine than I am, including being able to read the languages.
neo:
We have some Roosia “Rescuers” here, played by the Russian Drama Triangle but too proud to see it.
I strongly recommend reading Mr. Atabashian on any issue regarding Russia and the former Soviet Union, whether he signs it as “Red Square” or with his own name.
The line seems to be that because some people conservatives don’t agree with on many issues are favoring Ukraine, which has been invaded, we must necessarily not believe anything those people say. I don’t think that follows, logically.
I support Ukraine but I never called for Americans to risk their lives in Ukraine. There are many ways of supporting an ally without sending an army. The three weeks of fighting have shown Ukraine is quite capable of defending itself, given enough guns and ammo.
I agree with this and I also agree that the entire relationship with Russia has been distorted by the Russia hoax, which 72% of Democrats think is true. It has crippled our foreign policy.
From comments by Russian officials, it seems that the goal now is to take the whole seacoast to Moldova and maybe to Romania. Can we believe them? I think it would be best to take them at their word. Don’t know if the war material we are sending now is too little too late. I think the Four Horsemen are riding about.
Yeah, Mike K. But Kate, it’s worse than that We’re supposed to automatically oppose anything the rancid Left supports, like Zelensky!
Foreign issues are often murky and “sides” difficult to transpose across languages, cultures, and borders. Too insist on being overly simplistic just makes matters worse.
I see Left AND Right indulging themselves in the Great Sport of leaving to conclusions hastily, and often stupidly.
Thanks for LINKING to Peoplescube. I’ve been remiss in not using this resource.
I met Oleg (who is Ukrainian-American) on his book tour years ago. And remember PeoplesCube is your best source for People’s Propaganda on Current Party Line Doctrine.
Absolutely correct analysis in this article. The Russians have achieved phenomenal success in misleading politicians and the population of many countries. Creating chaos in other countries is their favorite pastime, and they are incorrigible, unfortunately. In their own country, they prefer to increase the atmosphere of imperial greatness, while accusing other countries of wanting to humiliate Russia. The people of Russia have been almost completely driven by propaganda to the level of paranoids who really think that they are the bravest, smartest, richest people on Earth, and whom the evil West wants to destroy out of envy of them. Just “the mysterious Russian soul” of the 2020s..
TJ, I long ago learned that automatically opposing any view, because some questionable people support it, without investigating, is not smart. Sometimes people who are wrong about most things have one issue right.
In the case of Ukraine’s defense of its nationhood against a Russian invasion, I simply don’t see how this can be said to advance the evil “globalist” agenda.
@Mike K
Likewise.
I’m more blasé about that. The Russian Collusion Hoax was only possible both with some cooperation from the Russian government (As we now know Re: Steele) but above all could not have happened were it not for the rather dubious nature of our relations with Russia for years.
And I frankly place most of that blame on Putin, as Mark Steyn did. Putin has ruled for far longer than any US President and most Western leaders and bureaucrats, has been the recipient of at least nominal offers to mend relations from each incoming US POTUS, and has turned them down because he and his party prefer to align with the emerging anti-American pole in global politics.
Had the US and Russia truly mended our relations, the Russia Hoax shindig would never have been anywhere near as potent as it was. The fact that the Democrats continued to demonize Russia using it (while also greatly inflating its threat) was just the icing on the cake of decades of dim relations.
Agreed there, particularly since it utterly hamstrung what Trump could and Could Not do without being falsely seen as a Russian Puppet. Which meant he had to simultaneously show himself to be “strong” on Russia while also trying to keep relations from boiling over because of Leftist Rhetoric.
That he managed to achieve it is one of the most remarkable of his many achievements.
Epstein didn’t kill himself, and maybe a lot of Roosian oligarchs didn’t either (and didn’t kill their wives and children). Don’t ask Vlad ….
https://redstate.com/streiff/2022/04/23/6-russian-oligarchs-commit-suicide-in-mysterious-outbreak-of-epstein-syndrome-n554915
We all need special sunglasses these days.
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/the-people-news-apr-t22743.html
“While Russia’s defenders point out the existence of Ukrainian nationalism, they somehow neglect to mention the unhinged Russian nationalism. The two are not equal. The nationalism of a dominant ethnicity in an empire which aims to subjugate other ethnicities as inferior to the main one, is called chauvinism or supremacism. The nationalism of a smaller ethnicity trying to free its neck from under its “big brother’s” boot is called a movement for dignity, freedom, and independence – something American conservatives have always identified with.”
And this is the part that most resonates with me: “Internally, on state-owned TV channels, Russian propaganda instills the sense of superiority, entitlement and indignation similar to what an abusive ex-husband feels towards his runaway ex-wife who better love him or else. In this case, the runaway ex-wife is Ukraine.”
I’m instinctively wary of anyone who’s using the “how dare you leave me, I’ll kill you for it” approach.
and zelensky has banned all alternate media, and imprisoned political rivals, it may be necessary, but he’s not nagy nor dubcek, the most fervent public defenders curiously have a indifference verging on contempt for American institutions,
I don’t fault the Azov battalions methods, considering the history of past movements, maybe some of their public statements could do some trimming, this reminds me of the Bosnian conflict, where it was more a question of sentiment, that was driving Western intervention, and there was scance a look at some of the people we aiding, like the middle ranks of Al Queda, who didn’t really appreciate our assistance, to put it mildly,
Why I miss Angelo Codevilla. I had the great honor of meeting him a few years ago. We sure could use his wisdom now;
From the linked article;
“Their virtue signaling and political spin over Ukraine is so revolting that if I didn’t know better, I’d turn against Ukraine like so many conservative commentators already have. Just as revolting is seeing previously trusted conservative sites and TV hosts defending Russia and tarring Ukraine.”
Whom have I missed? I’m unaware of any conservative commentator who has “turned against” Ukraine much less has defended Russia’s actions and has engaged in “tarring” Ukraine. Tucker Carlson has been accused of that but his main point is questioning the wisdom of America deepening its involvement in the Russia/Ukraine war. That is not, by any means, turning against and/or tarring Ukraine.
“Reading Russian and Ukrainian sources in the original, I know exactly who in this war is spinning lies and who is fighting for truth and freedom.”
Is anyone here so naive as to think that only the Russians are “spinning lies”? That a corrupt Zalensky regime is “fighting for truth and freedom”? News flash! Ukraine is not a democracy. Its elections are rigged.
“Some conservative hosts may not praise Putin’s ideas directly, but they favor guests and authors who deliver the influence operation script, blaming the victims and diminishing their suffering.”
Hosts? As in plural? Who might they be? Does anyone actually think that Tulsi Gabbard and Colonel McGregor are working from an “influence operation script, blaming the victims and diminishing their suffering”?
“little to do with Putin’s paranoia and his megalomaniacal motives to invade Ukraine and the rest of the former Soviet territories…”
Would not Russia invading “the rest of the former Soviet territories…” almost certainly result in nuclear war? So besides paranoid megalomaniac delusions… Putin is also suicidal? One of those who “just wants to see the world burn”?
“It’s time we asked, cui bono? Who benefits from a divided America fighting over Putin’s Russia? The answer is Putin’s Russia.”
Putin’s Russia would certainly benefit from a divided America fighting over Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine were there such a deep and wide division over that issue. I see little evidence of such a division. It’s a decidedly small minority who supports the view that the West has consistently provoked Russia.
“Russian influence operations, or “active measures,” have been targeting the U.S. for decades, aiming to demoralize Americans and make them hate one another.”
Has not consensus long existed here that America’s divisions are the result of the Left’s machinations? Reportedly, Russian influence operations” had little impact upon the 2020 election, which would be the most impactful influence imaginable.
“targeting conservatives as potential agents of influence”?
Agents of influence… boy there’s a dark meme for you.
“Russian propaganda is deeply embedded and is sophisticated enough to appear as honest opinions of concerned citizens. But what often betrays it is the narcissistic desire of making everything about Russia.”
Who’s making “everything about Russia”? What’s going on in America and the West is of far more importance to everyone here regardless of their POV of the Russia/Ukraine conflict.
“We are either fuming over Russian election interference, or over Russia setting up fake BLM pages on Facebook, or we are being dragged into sympathizing with Russia over its bogus fears of NATO expansion…”
The only people “fuming over Russian election interference” or “Russia setting up fake BLM pages on Facebook” were democrat propagandists.
Ask any competent and objective military strategist whether it’s “bogus” from a national security perspective to have a potentially hostile neighbor mere minutes away from your Capitol with the capability of launching an indefensible nuclear first strike. Ask whether they agree that capability rather than intent is the first concern.
“it’s a bit odd for a regular American to be simply a selfless defender of Russia’s national interests.”
Acknowledging another nation’s legitimate* national security concerns is neither ‘defending’ them nor acting as an apologist.
But accusing the acknowledgment of such is a tried and true means of dismissing it without rebuttal.
*legitimate when we would share the same concern if our positions were reversed.
Contrary to what a section of conservative media claims, Putin is not a Christian knight in shining armor fighting the New World Order. He has his own New World Order in mind, which is spiritually closer to Mordor. One look at Russian society today with its brutal suppression of dissent, government corruption, and state-sponsored brainwashing should give an idea of what he has in store for the rest of the conquered world.”
Putin can’t possibly have his own New World Order in mind, given he dosn’t even remortely have the capability to enact one.
He is resisting the West’s New World Order Agenda of a Western controlled uni-polar world. He heard all about that agenda when he attended the meetings at Davos.
Putin does brutally suppress serious dissent, corruption is endemic and state-sponsored brainwashing may well be the norm.
But he has nothing on what the left is engaged in the West, with our Jan. 6th Gulag, doxxing and canceling of those who speak out, parents accused of domestic terrorism, the Biden and Clinton tip of the spear corruption and long brainwashing in the schools. An agenda that is accelerating, widening and deepening.
“all of a sudden, many American conservatives today have become Russia experts, discussing the finer points of NATO’s expansion on Russian borders, Russophobia, Bandera, denazification, the Azov Battalion, special military operations, the genocide of Russians in Donbas, the movements of Slavic tribes in the Middle Ages, the plot by the CIA and State Department to install a puppet regime in Ukraine in 2014, the shooting down of flight MH17 by a Ukrainian missile, and other such nonsense.”
NATO’s expansion is a historical fact. The attitudes that gave rise to the Azov Battalion exist. In the Donbas, thousands of Russian speaking civilians have been killed and many more shelled for 8 years. The plot by the CIA and State Department to install a puppet regime in Ukraine in 2014 is another historical fact. Calling them “nonsense” does not make them so but more importantly, reveals an unwillingness by the author to acknowledge contrary facts.
Which makes much of this article hyperbolic propaganda.
Thanks for that article, and I’ll reciprocate by recommending you read this “open letter” — “Away from the abyss”: https://compactmag.com/article/away-from-the-abyss
Never a shortage of folks jumping thru their rears defending Russia; been this way since 1917 and millions exterminated.
I just don’t get it.
please, if Russia were communist, the overwhelming political class would be on their side, that’s who Biden, Kerry, Panetta all genuflected to, Obama didn’t think the nuclear freeze went far enough, if Kamala had an awareness in her pot induced haze, she probably felt the same way, of course films of the era, not only the Day After, but Testament, Threads, Count down to Looking Glass, were all about we were one step away from apocalypse, now it’s totes fine, as we venture in sight of the Russian steppes,
The Compact article makes some good points. The indiscriminate sanctions on everything Russian, including artists and athletes, make no sense. And Joe Biden’s statement about regime change was very unwise. Russian society and Russian leadership are Russia’s business.
But I also don’t think their call for an immediate humanitarian cease-fire makes much sense, in the face of Russia’s stated goals and actions. They call for a cease-fire which “takes into account Ukraine’s right to self-determination.” Ukraine’s right to self-determination is exactly what Russia denied when it launched this war. When Russia demonstrates that it wants to deal, then talks might be constructive.
From comments by Russian officials, it seems that the goal now is to take the whole seacoast to Moldova and maybe to Romania. Can we believe them? I think it would be best to take them at their word.
Well, Moldova appears to have been on the kill list at one point, inadvertantly revealed by Aleksander Lukachenko.
Geoffrey jumps through hoops to critique the citation (too close for comfort?).
Just one point to show how high he is jumping; comparing the Gulag to the Jan. 6 th incarceration and abusive treatment of American citizens, political prisoners that number in the hundreds, speaks of a profound ignorance of the immensity and the evil that the Gulag was. Clue for Geoffrey, the Gulag lasted 40+ years and took in millions IIRC. Look up the White Sea Canal or the Kolyma for a little taste of the Gulag. If not ignorant, he is a tad bit sloppy in his comparisons.
Not that Nancy’s goon didn’t commit murder on Jan. 6, 2021. Ashlii Babbitt R.I.P.
JohnTyler,
What you don’t get is that acknowledging what someone honestly perceives to be factual realities is not choosing one side over the other.
As no one has a complete view of the truth, someone can be mistaken in what they believe to be factual realities, yet because they honestly do see them as factual, they are not choosing i.e. defending one side at the expense of the other. Instead and however mistakenly, they’re trying to get to the truth of the matter.
The appropriate response to disagreement when reasoned arguments are made is to directly address them, rather than respond with emotion based moral judgements, which invariably reduce to… my side are the good guys and the other side are the bad guys… case closed.
Of course an unwillingness to accept that, results in ascribing to those with whom we disagree negative motivations. Like “folks jumping thru their rears”.
What you don’t get is that acknowledging what someone honestly perceives to be factual realities is not choosing one side over the other.
The salient factual reality is that Russia invaded the Ukraine and offered a set of preposterous reasons for doing so.
Art Deco:
But you of course are an ignorant fool because you do not see the situation from Vlad’s perspective, or have not walked kilometers in Vlad’s shoes, or grasped the existential threat posed by a mere thirteen minutes, or the evil of NATO, or WEF / Davos. or Nazis, or …. (sarc)
Art Deco said: The salient factual reality is that Russia invaded the Ukraine and offered a set of preposterous reasons for doing so.
Yes, and further, previous to the recent Ukraine invasion, Russia has done numerous other acts of aggression with equally as preposterous self-serving reasons. In Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova, as well as Eastern Ukraine and Crimea earlier. The question is why?
Vlad Vexler has an interesting take on it in his video THIS explains why Russia starts insane wars.
Moldova might be a step too far, but its all within their old territory
Since The Moskva reached its now stable configuration, the capture of Odessa looks increasingly remote, which may prevent Vlad from gobbling up the entirety of the Ukrainian Black Sea shoreline. That may prevent him getting to Moldova. Hard to do amphibious ops without dominance of the sea and air. Poor Vlad, his war seemed so easy in late February. Bloody murderous bastard.
I’m starting to look into the bios of writers on the web, to see what ax they are grinding, what angle they are looking from, and what agenda they favor.
Take your pick – from the top hits on DDG today.
https://atbashian.com/about-oleg/
https://drrichswier.com/author/oatbashian/
https://drrichswier.com/2016/11/15/oleg-atbashian-arrested-faces-five-years-in-prison-for-supporting-israel/
Geoffrey Britain on April 23, 2022 at 7:11 pm:
I think a fair interpretation of what Carlson and most of his guests are saying is that Ukraine should surrender now (or essentially be forced to surrender now) to get to what Carlson thinks is the inevitable outcome sooner rather than later, and thus save Ukrainian people from suffering through continued warfare.
Did Wikipedia really cancel the Cube?
Why yes, yes they did!
Maybe we can get Elon to buy the entire Web.
https://www.bombthrowers.com/article/wikipedia-deletes-the-peoples-cube-from-history/
January 9, 2017
Ira M. Siegel:
If that is the case, it is a profound disappointment. Those Ukrainians don’t deserve to have their own country, they are Slavs after all? Neither did the American colonists in 1776.
The USSR will never fall, nor will the CCP, and for that matter don’t resist the WEF / Davos; Vlad is fighting them.
Has Carlson missed what Vlad has said about liquidating Ukrainians? Curious blindness.
I think the saga of the cancellation of the People’s Cube at Wikipedia is an excellent object lesson for students of the wider Cancel Culture.
The leftist slant of Wikipedia has long been noted, but this removal is a particularly egregious one so I am dwelling on it as a cautionary tale.
This is how the stealth censorship works, like Twitter shadow-bans and Google down-ranking algorithms, so that people who don’t know something contrary to the Leftist Agenda Narrative exists have fewer and fewer ways to find out.
(Snopes fact-checking The Babylon Bee is only a pale imitator.)
The discovery that Wiki editor’s wanted to delete the page happened on 1/2/2017, and the deed was accomplished on 1/9, despite heroic efforts by TPC’s contributors and friends, as summarized in my prior comment.
However, the details are fascinating, and full of foreboding, because they demonstrate so exactly the methods used by the Left to cancel their opponents.
The proposed replacement page referred to is included, in case you would like to know something about TPC.
The original entries are in reverse chronological order.
A few excerpts, flipped back into chronological order:
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html
Oleg is still being optimistic – but the fix is already in.
Note how the goalposts keep moving.
Kind of like Cinderella’s step-mother and step-sisters continually changing the requirements for her to go to the Prince’s ball.
With about as much effect as in any rigged election.
I doubt that Wiki even bothered to count the votes against deletion, since they obviously had already decided to do it, and there is probably no outside audit.
Makes you wonder what else isn’t in Wikipedia.
Other notable milestones are down in the Comments section. TPC tried very hard to keep meeting the demands from Wiki’s editors, and there are some interesting side-stories in their efforts.
I learned from entries about kimberlin about 12 years ago, the talk section is where they make the sausage
Sorry not sorry for kind of hi-jacking the thread, but I think this extended exploration of the travails of The People’s Cube is actually on-topic, because to a large degree the split on the right is the result of the machinations of the media in suppressing “disinformation” aka “anything that interferes with our leftist agenda.”
I searched Wikipedia today and got this:
&
Hint: the topic is not already covered.
I wonder what would happen if anyone tried creating a new page?
A page on TPC at Infogalactic has more information on the cancellation war, but I like the explanation of their name and logo.
“The People’s Cube is named after its flagship product, a Rubik’s Cube that is red on all six sides, thereby ensuring equal results for all who attempt to solve it, with no potential loss of self-esteem.”
https://infogalactic.com/info/The_People%27s_Cube
Google has been a liar from the beginning, and the truth is not in them.
And they are still busily at it.
This was not the last time Snope got pwned.
Gotta keep those left-wing washing machines spinning.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cnn-washing-machine/
Only by left-wing idiots, because the leftist agit-prop is no longer distinguishable from parody.
Returning to the TPC post detailing the skirmish with Wikipedia:
Commenter Pamalinsky said this on 1/4/2017: “Ha! And some Comrades questioned me when I suggested that The Powers That Be™ would not be able to distinguish between a parody site and actual commentary.”
Ain’t that the truth!
Other notable comments (Red Square is Atbashian’s nom at TPC); most of them are citations to TPC in “reliable mainstream media,” in an effort to satisfy the Wiki editors’ demands, but as noted in the first excerpt, “reliability” depends only on ideology.
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html#p209945
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html#p209957
“They” are lovely illustrations of The Progressive Democrat Brain and The Conservative Republican Brain, and are worth taking a look at, if you aren’t afraid of mistaking them for real biological organs.
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html#p209983
Which is why the page had to be deleted, of course.
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html#p210023
That is clearly how it works in their world.
CNN+ for the win.
om: I’m surprised by any conservative who does not want Ukraine, the actual victim of an invasion, to have an opportunity to defend itself.
I freely admit to know knowing much about Ukraine. What I do know is propaganda. And propaganda is how the NATO powers want to “resist” this Russian invasion.
The leader of NATO needs to Russians to sign an agreement of giving goodies to the Iranians. No necessary ground work was done by the NATO powers to organize a response to the Russians. The mass cancellation of Russia by woke megacorps and banks have more directly impacted the common Russian citizen and has failed to discourage the oligarchs.
It’s a mess. I feel bad the about Ukraine, but NATO offers propaganda instead of solutions to the problem.
If the “adults” would offer actual leadership things would be different. Cancelling a Russian’s apple pay doesn’t save one life, and only demonstrates what lengths the powers that be in the West are willing to do to those who resist “The Great Reset.”
TPC Manifesto at the bottom of every page – sounds very familiar now that the Left has jettisoned its stealth indoctrination in favor of blatant activism (although there have been plenty of people noting the former):
“The uncontested absurdities of today are the accepted slogans of tomorrow. They come to be accepted by degrees, by precedent, by implication, by erosion, by default, by dint of constant pressure on one side and constant retreat on the other – until the day when they are suddenly declared to be the country’s official ideology.” ~ Ayn Rand
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html#p210066
https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/urgent-people-s-cube-can-be-deleted-from-wikipedia-help-t19139.html#p210061
They didn’t learn anything then; they clearly are not learning anything now.
See: LibsOfTikTok; Disney; Fauci & covid mandates; truckers’ protests, etc.
They are sitting on powder kegs and tossing matches at the fuse cords.
WHICH, in the way of the Webz, when I checked to see that powder kegs actually had fuses, my search brought up some surprisingly relevant posts.
On the Ukraine-Russia war, taking the Russian view.
https://www.voltairenet.org/article215078.html
On the intramural war among Americans today being very similar to the Revolutionary period (although not actually about the current Ukraine controversy) .
This is a very long post, but it’s full of interesting information about the conflicts between the Whigs (pro-colonies) and the Tories (pro-British), and has excellent pictures.
The author focuses on a particular New York citizen, Samuel Townsend, who has Whig sympathies but lives in a majority-Tory county.
https://amberleighauthor.com/2021/04/22/1775-the-fuse-on-the-powder-keg/
Note that the Whigs’ activities are lauded now as being necessary to achieve US independence, and the Tories’ opposition deplored,
but (a) the narrative was the exact opposite in Britain at the time;
and (b) if the British had won, that narrative would be the one taught in America as well
(not a new or unique observation on my part).
As Benjamin Franklin said (per “1776”), “Every rebellion is legal in the first person….”
My favorite from the People’s Cube: Karen Magazine: https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/karen-magazine-elizabeth-warren-edition-t22557.html
I had a little trouble finding the link, because the UK has a Karen Magazine too.
http://www.karenmagazine.com/
@Ira M. Siegel
That does sound like a saner interpretation off the top of what Tucker and co might be saying (I say MIGHT because I have not checked up much, since I boycott most of Fox after their role in 2022). And it is an understandable perspective.
However, it is one I do not agree with for a few different reasons.
First and foremost: R.J. Rummel (one of the greatest scholars and scientists the world by and large hasn’t heard of) managed to prove pretty definitively that the bloodiest and nastiest suffering doesn’t come from war, it comes from brutal oppression by one side being armed and empowered, stomping on those that cannot defend themselves.
https://hawaii.edu/powerkills/WSJ.ART.HTM
Ukraine has had no shortage of that in its history, including rather recent history.
Now, I’ll be the first to admit that Putin is nowhere near as bad as Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, or the like (at least YET). But who on EARTH thinks he can be trusted to have armed power over unarmed people in a nation he has never entirely acknowledged has a right to exist? Who here has taken a look at the messes in Crimea and particularly the Donbas Manchukuos and thinks “Yes, this is a fine way to live life”?
Especially given his proven track record of lying through his teeth, violating international law and national treaties, and so on?
If he’s willing to lie about nuclear weapons in the lip service he gave to the Budapest Memorandum, what else is he willing to? And given how Russification in Ukraine has historically not been a picnic even outside of the Holodomor, I cannot fault anybody for fighting.
After all, as one of the titans of the West said:
It is one thing to surrender and be treated as honorable subjects, even if second class ones. But to be reduced further than that or have one’s nation and community be attacked in peace is..another thing.
Secondly: I do think there is a significant chance the Ukrainians can win this. Not entirely of course, and likely as a moderate or marginal chance, but still. This is not Georgia. Ukraine is a tough, large, battle hardened nation with fat to burn fighting to defend itself while Russia was nowhere near as intimidating in conventional war as many of us feared (even if it is still hugely intimidating). The odds are against them to be sure, but not as much as in many cases. And Putin in particular is feeling the political heat if nothing else, being opposed to declaring this a formal war but at the same time feeling the manpower shortages that can only be remedied by drastic measures without it.
@ Miguel > “I learned from entries about kimberlin about 12 years ago, the talk section is where they make the sausage”
Yep. Crossed my mind.
Anyone who doesn’t remember the story, this is a good recap.
BONUS connection: Kimberlin met his wife in Ukraine (per the Daily Beast).
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-weirdest-story-about-a-conservative-obsession-a-convicted-bomber-and-taylor-swift-you-have-ever-read
And it gets more lurid from there.
Note: Patrick Frey, named in the above article, is the blogger Patterico)
This is one of Frey’s early posts from the era of the brouhaha, which I was following at the time.
http://patterico.com/2010/10/11/brad-friedmans-partner-and-buddy-a-convicted-bomber-perjurer-and-drug-smuggler-suspected-murderer-and-election-integrity-hero/
Then the SWATting started.
http://patterico.com/2012/05/25/convicted-bomber-brett-kimberlin-neal-rauhauser-ron-brynaert-and-their-campaign-of-political-terrorism/
But the Wikipedia article is remarkably sparse on details about the lawsuits and SWATting episodes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Kimberlin
Note: Orrin Hatch passed away this week. RIP
https://nypost.com/2022/04/23/former-utah-sen-orrin-hatch-dead-at-88/
“The Hatch Foundation sadly announces the passing of Senator Orrin G. Hatch—the former President Pro Tempore of the United States Senate and the longest-serving Senator in Utah history (1977-2019)…He served in the Senate for 42 years, retiring in 2019.”
With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, NO ONE should serve in the Senate, or the House, for that long.
The gerontocracy leading our country (and much of the world) are part of the reason there are such splits among Americans — everyone is still fighting their bogeys from the old days.
That’s on the Left and the Right.
https://accordingtohoyt.com/2022/04/22/eating-our-seed-corn/
“The world has more or less always been ruled by the old. Young rulers taking over and being good was a shock.
But there are two elements to this: their old weren’t as old as our old. And they had more young people to keep the system in check.”
With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, NO ONE should serve in the Senate, or the House, for that long.
Agreed. New York has for its judges mandatory retirement rules which require judges retire the calendar year they reach their 76th birthday and be subject to biennial peer review past the calendar year they reach their 70th birthday.
Why not make it a rule that all federal employees must retire during the calendar year they reach their 76th birthday? For elective positions, you’d have to stand down if during the term for which you might compete, you were due to reach your 76th birthday.
Consider also: all elective federal offices serve a four year term, but you have to stand down if you’ve held an office for 14 of the last 16 years or will hit that wall during the term for which you might compete. (You’d need to apply the rotation-in-office rule to all time spent in Congress, not just to time spent in one chamber, or a few wily characters would just arrange to remain in office by bouncing back and forth between the chambers).
Apply these rules to Hatch, who was first elected in 1976. He could have served for three four year terms ‘ere he had to stand down. Had he managed to return after a term on the bench, he could have served another three terms before again being compelled to stand down. He’d have been debarred from running for Congress after 2004 as the term for any seat contested after 2004 would have included calendar year 2010 (the year he reached his 76th birthday). Hatch could have sat in Congress for no more than 24 years and would have been compelled to retire at age 70.
As for the Senate, you could return to election by state legislatures so at least you might have senators with something in mind other than pleasing campaign donors. Posit an electoral calendar where you elect the President and the House in year 1 and then elect state governors and state legislatures in year 3, with the state legislatures having a brief session soon after they were elected to chose the state’s U.S. Senator(s).
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Americans are being gaslit into a military operation in Ukraine. Make no mistakes here- the Biden Administration desperately wants to send NATO troops into the Ukraine, and the media is cheerleading this avidly- the only problem is that the polls prevent Biden, or whoever is running things in the White House, from doing so. So, the media will continue to run Ukraine 24 hours a day until some event is used as a pretext for NATO to act. We will be lucky to be alive a year after it happens.
FWIW (and it really may not be much), the LAST thing that “Biden” wants to do—and the LAST thing “Biden” intends to do—is send troops to help Ukraine withstand Putin’s savage assault.
(According to this hypothesis—quite possibility absurdly bass-ackward—it’s all part of the sub-rosa agreement/compact/covenant between “Biden” and Putin.)
What “Biden” DOES want to do, however, is make it APPEAR as though “he” DOES want to—and WILL—do “ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING POSSIBLE” to protect Ukraine and bring about a “cessation of hostilities” (something for which the clamoring, corrupt media/info-tech sector is most useful)…
…while in the meantime, milking the current crisis—a crisis for which “he” is deeply implicated—for all it’s worth (MAINLY for its ability to totally distract as many of ” the American People” as possible, and many others too, from “his” subversive and destructive policies in—practically ALL—other areas and theaters, specifically the economy, inflation, the southern border, Iran, CRT, COVID, the energy scandal, crime in the cities, the various hoaxes that “he” requires to be TRUE, the most honest election in American history, etc.)…while appearing as a MOST RESPONSIBLE and SOBER leader—not a warmonger or ambulance chaser….
…which subversive and destructive policies “he” must do everything in “his” power to conceal, to misrepresent, to cover up and to lie about (once again with the able and willing assistance of the corrupt media/info-tech sector…).
The more crises, the better.
The more disinformation, the better.
The more confusion, the better.
The more dread, the better.
“Biden” views this as central to his program.
(And curiously, as I’ve mentioned more than once before, so does Putin…or maybe not so curiously, actually….)
The Russian Collusion Hoax was only possible both with some cooperation from the Russian government (As we now know Re: Steele) but above all could not have happened were it not for the rather dubious nature of our relations with Russia for years.
The Russian government had nothing to do with Steele and the hoax. It was a former Russian now in America who told lies to Steele.
I missed this the first time I saw it.
Personally, I think Biden’s handlers ginned this up as a distraction from his policies and their consequences. Putin took them seriously and invaded. He saw their weakness as an opportunity.
Barry, the “last thing Biden wants to do is to send in the troops” doesn’t stand the test of history. I have heard that story before, and it is never true. The Biden people think Biden will get a political boost by being a war president prior to the mid term elections, so war is what we are likely to get, and it is what the media are cheering for, unless the polls make it completely clear that war is the last thing the American people want, and even that might not be enough.
The trouble with bending over backwards to “understand” the other guy, like a Putin or a Hitler, is that one can always find , at least early on, a rationale to excuse their actions and find ways to blame other parties like your own nation , or NATO, or the Treaty of Versailles, or the over 20% of the population of the Sudetenland consisting of ethnic Germans, or the Bolshevik goal to achieve equality of outcomes and a workers paradise, or Castro’s takeover of Cuba by eliminating the crooked and bad Batista, or……. etc.
The effort to understand the “other” guy blinds one to reality. Instead of seeking what really motivates the actions of the other guy, like for instance his actual words or writings or even his previous actions, efforts are expended to explain why the bad guy’s actions are justified.
It’s only later, when it’s too late , that a fast moving 2×4 hits you across the face and injects reality into one’s skull.
And sometimes reality never enters the minds of many; think AOC or Bernie Sanders or the murderer, Teddy Kennedy’s, personal trip to Moscow to find ways to thwart Ronald Reagan.
Putin’s previous actions in Georgia, Crimea, Chechnya serve as a good template to what Putin believes, but most important are his OWN comments about Ukraine in which he state, for all intents and purposes, that Ukraine has no right to exist as independent nation.
What is it about Putin’s comment about Ukraine that is ambiguous or prompts one to seek the “other guy’s” perspective?
What is it about Putin’s THREATS targeted at Finland and Sweden, re: NATO, that are ambiguous or justified? Are we to attempt here to seek Putin’s side of the story?
As I said before, since 1917 there has never been a shortage of Russian apologists in the West, no matter what the Russians have done, no matter how many Russians / Ukrainians (think Holodomor) have been/ are murdered by the Russians.
They remind me of that U of Colorado prof that said the individuals within the World Trade Center that were killed on 9-11 had it coming.
Oh, I guess he was just attempting to look at that from the other guy’s point of view.
How noble of him.
Excellent comments at
Turtler on April 24, 2022 at 1:59 am
and
Barry Meislin on April 24, 2022 at 10:08 am.
Now, if you are not for Biden (and Macron) you are pro-Putin.
See how that works?
A Le Pen win would be widely seen as a victory for Russia and a defeat for the United States and NATO.
Yup.
And just a brief reminder from the NY Post, vying with “the Bee” for the nation’s somethingorother of record, to all of us (METOO#) who believe we know—and even REALLY DO know(?!)—what “Biden” is up to….
“Joe Biden’s all malarkey all the time”—
https://nypost.com/2022/04/23/joe-bidens-all-malarkey-all-the-time/
H/T Powerline blog.
(Of course that’s A-OK since “he”‘s NOT Trump….)
Great article, and this is all nothing new. Over 100 years ago the Secretary of State warned president Roosevelt (Teddy) that with regard to Russia he was, dealing with a government with whom mendacity is a science.
@Mike K
<The Russian government had nothing to do with Steele and the hoax. It was a former Russian now in America who told lies to Steele.
I missed this the first time I saw it.
That’s much too simple, unfortunately. While Igor is the one indicted (so far) for directly feeding/laundering lies to Steele, it seems fairly clear that Russian assets more directly tied to the regime were also helping it directly.
https://dailycaller.com/2020/04/10/fbi-russian-disinformation-steele-dossier-trump/
https://news.yahoo.com/steele-dossier-source-suspected-russian-103028627.html
Classic information warfare (both when used by the Kremlin and in general): Try to play both sides against the middle. The Peoples’ Cube made a reference to this sort of stuff.
I largely agree. Certainly, Putin did not dare escalate his invasion beyond “deniable” trench war in the Donbas and the occupation of Crimea while Trump was in office.
Indeed, it is classic guilt by association. To be honest my feelings on the Le Pens are lukewarm at the best of times but I don’t fear or hate them half as much as I fear the Left using stuff like this to demonize us. It is one reason why I hope for a Ukrainian victory: that it will help de-claw Russia as a boogeyman they can use to demonize us and try to persecute political opposition.
Of course, I am much too cynical to NOT think they will not try to create a new boogeyman for that purpose if they need to, but it will inconvenience and delay them.
@JohnTyler Brilliantly well said indeed, and I think that hammers home an important difference. There’s a difference been trying to reason out a political actor’s behavior and trying to rationalize it, in much the same way there is a difference between trying to understand that actor’s reasons and trying to make others understand said reasons are understandable.
True understanding and analysis requires the ability to repudiate justifications or reasons that are indefensible. Where the excuses cannot actually excuse. I think it is valuable to understand the other guy’s side- really understand- both in the narrative they WANT us to believe and how they actually act.
But that does not in any way actually mean I think we should bow and scape to do it. The Russian Government made it abundantly clear that Ukraine had the right to join NATO when it signed the Astana Accords and accepted the USSR’s signature on the Helsinki Final Act.
If it had not wanted to do so, Putin should have held off having his goons sign off.
But even if he had done that, it would not have justified his actions.
Putin’s invasion of the Ukraine is a disaster. I think that gets lost sometimes in the inter-right discussion of the war. Putin’s invasion moved us from the realm of considering good/bad outcomes and into the realm of considering bad/worse outcomes.
There were no good outcomes for the Ukraine once Putin invaded. Once the invasion happened, all of the options that included a Ukrainian victory involved considerable death, destruction, and human suffering for Ukrainians. The options that included a Russian victory involved differing levels of death, destruction, and human suffering along with either the end of Ukrainian sovereiegnty or a significant reduction in Ukrainaian sovereiegnty. Not to mention that a world where major powers feel comfortable aggressively invading their neighbors is a more dangerous world for all of us.
Given that, it is perfectly reasonable to ask whether different policy choices by the western powers over the 30 years or so since the breakup of the Soviet Union led to the current situation or whether different policies might have avoided it.This is especially the case given the links between US and Ukrainian elites over the past few decades, especially among our administrative class. Did the US politicians and bureaucrats like Nuland, Vindman, and Hill lead western-oriented Ukranians down the primrose path to disaster by making them think that NATO would support them or that the Ukraine would eventually join NATO? Asking that question is not being a “mouthpiece for Putin.” Asking whether the US or other western powers might have avoided the current terrible situation with different policy choices is not acting as “Putin’s press office.” The style of discourse that suggests otherwise is not helpful.
I’m a little more ambivalent about what we should be advising the Ukrainians to do now. I don’t have a problem with pointing out the death, destruction, and suffering that the war is causing and suggesting that they might be better off negotiating a settlement quickly, even if it means significant territorial concessions, which seems to be the position that some are attributing to Carlson. On the other hand, it is only for the Ukrainians to place a value on their own sovereignty and autonomy. If they decide to fight to the last, we ought to respect that as well and I have no problem with supporting them as we have.
The Washington Post is projecting a Macron win in France. Dare we believe anything appearing in that rag?
“…While Igor [Danchenko] is the one indicted (so far) for directly feeding/laundering lies to Steele, it seems fairly clear that Russian assets more directly tied to the regime were also helping it directly.”
The “version” I’m familiar with is that Steele fabricated his dossier from whole cloth. Totally bogus. From borscht to nuts.
With Danchenko as his inventive, creative source.
Do you have any support (or references) regarding which “Russian assets more directly tied to the regime”—which I assume is the Putin regime(?)—were “helping it directly”—I assume that “it” is the hoax(?)?
Good lord. Some people need to get out of the house. Pronto
I’m not even sure what is going on here. Am I somehow obligated to favor one or the other ? Am I supposed to ignore the history of the last 20 years and just subscribe to the black vs. white good / bad narrative ?
I don’t support a Russian invasion of Ukraine. But I even LESS support sending one single American to fight for Ukraine. Least of all, until thousands and thousands of European soldiers have died defending Ukraine and attacking Russia first. This IS NOT our fight, again, least of all if it isn’t Europe’s fight.
Meanwhile we have abject incompetents running the country. Am I supposed to support a war against Russia because these idiots can’t get out of their way, did nothing, and continue to do nothing of value to end the fight ?
Anyone that claims we need to fight Russia over this is a flat out lunatic.
Given that, it is perfectly reasonable to ask whether different policy choices by the western powers over the 30 years or so since the breakup of the Soviet Union led to the current situation or whether different policies might have avoided it.
No it isn’t.
My standard default is to root for the underdog however when all media all corporate and financial power is on one side when this same faction is for our endless reconquista when they support the mutilation physical and psychological of the youth it makes one pause, macron trudeau biden johnson what do they have in common?
“No it isn’t.“
And that is the sort of foolishness propped up by the original article, which is nothing but unadulterated tripe repeating the “Putin is bad and did a bad thing because he’s bad” nonsense.
Here’s a good rule we should all follow. If someone has to suggest or imply that it is impossible for anyone to honestly have a different view and that any differing opinion is the result of foreign influence, that someone is not actually on the right side of the issue.
Here’s another something to chew on. If a rise in fuel costs and a rise in food costs/food shortages leads to global unrest and the collapse of multiple governments, who will be responsible for all the death and suffering that results? If you reflexively say “Putin,” you are not as smart as you think you are.
Mike
“…root for the underdog…”
Well, fair enough.
And here’s a fascinating map that shows just why Putin feels he IS the underdog…
https://assets.zerohedge.com/s3fs-public/styles/inline_image_mobile/public/inline-images/2022-04-02_11-45-41.jpg?itok=TytAIbCr
From:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/which-nations-are-russias-unfriendly-list
Here’s a good rule we should all follow. If someone has to suggest or imply that it is impossible for anyone to honestly have a different view and that any differing opinion is the result of foreign influence, that someone is not actually on the right side of the issue.
If your differing opinion has a cock-eyed understanding of causality but draws deeply from tropes which are recycled by the chatterati during every international conflict, I’m going to husband my efforts. Mortimer Adler said not every book merits a line-by-line reading. Well, not every argument merits much attention. In any case, we’ve run through it umpteen times in these comment boards and Geoffrey’s blather doesn’t get better with repetition.
And having received what amounted to “fuck you, you’re stupid” from you every time the subject Iraq is raised, It’s pretty rum for you to be shooting this line.
You wanna talk to Bauxite, you do it.
“What you don’t get is that acknowledging what someone honestly perceives to be factual realities is not choosing one side over the other.” GB
“The salient factual reality is that Russia invaded the Ukraine and offered a set of preposterous reasons for doing so.” Art Deco
If one’s examination of an issue begins and ends with the first salient factual reality, any other salient factual reality will indeed be declared to be preposterous.
JohnTyler,
Recognizing and ackowledging the legitimate* strategic security concerns of, even an enemy… is not “bending over backwards to “understand” the other guy, like a Putin” nor is it “a rationale to excuse their actions”.
Its facing strategic and geopoltical realities.
*legitimate defined as what is declared valid when the shoe is on the other foot… has to also apply to even someone we detest.
“The effort to understand the “other” guy blinds one to reality. Instead of seeking what really motivates the actions of the other guy, like for instance his actual words or writings or even his previous actions, efforts are expended to explain why the bad guy’s actions are justified.”
You mean words both spoken and written repeatedly and consistently declaring NATO placing itself upon Russia’s border to be totally unacceptable for them? Words repeatedly and forcefully conveyed both publicly and to the highest levels…
Actions like NATO stating it would be incorporating Georgia into NATO prior to Russia seizing the strategic portion of Georgia most relevant to its strategic national concerns.
Words like the Ukraine stating that it planned to effectively cut off Russia’s access to its Sevastapol Naval Base by seizing control of the Crimea?
Yes, we should pay attention to everything said and done… by both sides.
Which BTW, includes Putin limiting himself to the smaller part of Georgia and now limiting himself to eastern Ukraine. Which for a megalomaniac determined to restore the former Soviet Union’s territorial borders is a puzzling contradiction…
But hey, why let contraindications get in the way of a cherished dogma?
We have to pay attention to the other sides existential factual realities, as otherwise we may greatly escalate the odds of future conflict. And when nuclear forces are involved, the consequences maybe so disastrous as to be unimaginable.
Not to belabor the obvious but the aftermath of a nuclear war does not end well… for anyone.
Geoffrey:
Crimea prior to Vlad’s siezure was part of the nation of Ukraine. The Russian Sebastapol naval facilities were Ukrainian territory leased to Russia by Ukraine. Those are called facts.
Subic Bay USN facilities were leased to the USA by the Philippines. When the lease negotiations fell through in 1991 the USA left. That’s how non-Roosian foreign relations work.
Stop making things up regarding Russia and Ukraine if you want to be taken seriously.
Just a bit of foolish advice.
So we should thank Vlad for only taking small bites of Georgia, small parts of the Ukraine? What’s next small parts of the Baltics or Poland, or Moldiva? BS on stilts.
If Trump were President would Putin have invaded Ukraine? For those who blame Putin 100%, the answer is yes.
Stop making things up regarding Russia and Ukraine if you want to be taken seriously.
“Making things up” is not approved here, I guess. Just like Trump “making up” the 2020 election steal.
It’s no longer allowed to say “we disagree.”
Russia, under attack from Ukraine, is now preparing to be invaded by neighboring Finland…as the encirclement of the beleaguered motherland continues apace.
https://instapundit.com/517054/
No doubt the Baltic states are drooling a bit too publicly in anticipation of getting their fair share of Russian territory while the going is good. And so, they too will no doubt have to be dealt with.
Should one wonder if a smiling China will take advantage of Russia’s travails to pick off a piece or two of resource-rich Siberia?
We disagree about opinions, facts misstated are not the same. Crimea was part of Ukraine. Sebastapol was leased. Those aren’t opinions. Vlad decided to take both from Ukraine. Sorry if that upsets you.
Geoffrey isn’t being censored or banned for being wrong about these facts.
“No it isn’t.”
Sure. When a bad thing happen, one should never ask why and never consider whether one’s own choices may have contributed to the bad thing. That might cause one to discover out that he or she is not omnisicent. We couldn’t have that.
meanwhile France has lost it’s sovereignty its honor and it’s birthright again
https://meaninginhistory.substack.com/p/french-vote-not-a-good-look?s=r
had the world cared 61 years ago
https://babalublog.com/2022/04/24/russia-rewards-cuba-for-its-loyalty-with-huge-wheat-shipment/#comments
one relative was fool enough to trust a kennedy and dulles, another died in the florida straits, trying to escape
From the meaningofhistory.substack
“Le Pen ran on leaving NATO. So, again, it looks like it’s the oldies who, way disproportionately, want to remain in NATO and poke the Bear.”
Le Pen may not win and France is stuck with Macron. Regardless Vlad is still a bloddy murderous bastard trying to dismember Ukraine on bite at a time. History shows that such men are not easily or predictably satiated.
Otay, Buckwheat, that Bear was actually living with Cristopher Robin in that land of alternate history. But NATO had to poke it.
Makes perfect historical sense.
they seem to be on a suicide pact,
https://freewestmedia.com/2022/04/23/berlin-municipality-to-ration-drinking-water/
we’re not that far behind,
Sure. When a bad thing happen, one should never ask why and never consider whether one’s own choices may have contributed to the bad thing. That might cause one to discover out that he or she is not omnisicent. We couldn’t have that.
Let go of my leg. That’s the go to narrative of topical commentary, magazine journalism, snap books, and academic literature whenever there is some conflict having vaguely to do with the United States.
In this case, it’s preposterous. You wanna join Geoffrey in wasting your time on sophistry, it’s your time, not mine.
More from the land of the un-poked Bear:
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2022/04/24/tass-russia-has-designs-on-nations-beyond-the-borders-of-ukraine-n1592304
That nation would be Moldova, after Vlad has absorbed eastern Ukraine. Nothing to see, almost inconceivable Bear behavior.
they seem eager to self neuter themselves,
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/04/23/bojo-condemns-prejudice-against-green-agenda-wont-scrap-energy-taxes/
Miguel Cervantes:
There’s an Alabama connection to the Bay of Pigs. I attended a memorial event last week in Birmingham, Alabama for the four Alabama Air National Guard (AANG) crew members who were killed flying combat missions in Douglas B-26 Invaders over the invasion site:
Leo Baker
Wade Gray
Thomas “Pete” Ray
Riley Shamburger
Baker and Ray survived a crash landing but were killed on the ground by Cuban militiamen. Gray and Shamburger were shot down over the water and crashed into the sea.
Ray’s daughter, Janet Ray, spent almost twenty years trying to get the U.S. government to acknowledge that her father and the other three men died while in official government service. The CIA, which stonewalled her efforts, eventually relented and put stars for the four men on the Memorial Wall at Langley:
https://www.cia.gov/legacy/honoring-heroes/heroes/pete-ray-leo-baker-riley-shamburger-wade-gray/
Janet Ray was also able to get her father’s body returned from a morgue in Cuba and buried at Forest Hill Cemetery in Birmingham. The cemetery overlooks Birmingham-Shuttlesworth International Airport and the suburb of Tarrant, where Pete Ray grew up. There was a ceremony last Tuesday–the 61st anniversary of his death–at the grave site with a color guard from the 117th Air Refueling Wing of the AANG. It was followed by a lecture and reception at the Southern Museum of Flight, also located on the edge of the airport.
@Barry Meislin
Sorry for the delay, I did not see this reply initially.
That’s the heart of the matter, but he had more than some help from people outside of Danchenko (who himself is now getting investigated for possibly being a spy for Putin’s goons).
Starting out with this one, which talks about Danchenko’s ambivalent role and possible involvement with the Kremlin (even if it is on Yahoo).
https://news.yahoo.com/steele-dossier-source-suspected-russian-103028627.html
This talks more directly about the wider “suspected” involvement of the Russian Government. Hence:
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/04/declassified-info-reveals-russia-hoax-was-based-daniel-greenfield/
https://dailycaller.com/2020/04/10/fbi-russian-disinformation-steele-dossier-trump/
https://thepoliticalwarroom.com/russia-hoax-smoking-gun/
So in short, we’re already DEFINITELY looking at the Crossfire-Hurricane Goons intentionally downplaying the Kremlin ties of those “cooperating” with them, and Occam’s Razor says we are looking at a targeted disinformation campaign.
Vocational Training as of late keeps me busy, so I don’t have the source index I once had. But I’ll try and keep digging and in the meantime hope this helps whet your appetite.
Dan Bongino has covered much of thus, but it will be interesting to hear what Turtler comes up with. Tales of the un-poked Bear, the Hilldabeast, and the alphabet agencies.
A strong military posture is warranted but what we have been signaling for more than a year has been the opposite, not to mention how the eu whined about having to dare their bare minimum contf
Ribution
I am standing back on the side right now simply because I don’t trust US foreign policy here. The current Ukrainian faction in charge got in power by bribing the Biden family to help effect regime change, and our continued support of their government may just be the Bidens staying bribed. We saw with Trump’s first impeachment how this pro-Ukrainian faction of our own government was willing to lie through their teeth to get rid of OrangeManBad.
Eva Marie:
You write:
Untrue.
I blame Putin 100%. If it were possible to blame him 1000%, I’d do that instead. And my answer to your question is “no.”
One thought does not follow the other at all. It is a matter of timing. Putin was waiting for the right moment, and he seized it.
Exactly correct, Bruce. Well said.
deadrody:
No one here is suggesting sending Americans to fight. And although somewhere there must be a few people saying we should, I certainly haven’t seen them.
In addition, everyone here agrees that we are in dire straits domestically and that the administration is abominable. But being serious about that topic doesn’t require ignoring the topic of Ukraine.
So, why the strawman argument?
The question looming in the background is whether any foreign regime is more of an enemy of the United States than the illegitimate one presently running the US. I say no, and my foreign policy views are colored accordingly.
Two YouTube videos on the Ukraine war that are apolitical,
military economics and logistics
The Price of War – Can Russia afford a long conflict?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
Ukraine vs Russia – Who wins a war of hardware attrition?
v=aEpk_yGjn0E&t=19shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2ptG1IxZ08
Well, Banned Lizard that makes your deployment decisions so much easier.
Neo: “Putin was waiting for the right moment, and he seized it.”
A year ago you wrote “if you eliminate penalties for certain crimes, you will get more of those crimes.”
Do the policies we follow affect the behavior of criminals? And should we blame policies (and the politicians who put them into effect) that encourage criminal behavior?
Turtler, thanks much for your response…
I respect immensely Daniel Greenfield, generally.
Here I think he’s trying to be a bit too sophisticated, though one can certainly understand why.
Granted, nothing related to Russia is simple. The opposite, in fact. Especially when it comes to espionage.
My problem with the description of “clever Russian subterfuge”, disinformation and interference in Greenfield’s article, to which you linked, is that there did NOT NECESSARILY have to be any Russian disinformation at all—even if “intuitively” such subterfuge and disinformation emanating from Russia would most certainly “make sense”.
My point here is that it could have been entirely invented and then pinned—“SENSIBLY”, “INTUITIVELY”—on Russian sources, on Russian “disinformation”, on Russian interference; which is something that would surprise absolutely no one; which in fact would be accepted by absolutely everyone: “THOSE RUSSIANS”, etc.
Which is, if what I am proposing is correct, is precisely what happened.
IOW, it was Clinton and her sinister associates ALL THE WAY DOWN—without any “official” Russian input at all.
And when that immaculately concocted, most exquisite plot (AKA Russiagate) FAILED to prevent Trump’s election, it was (too good to waste!) seamlessly appropriated by the vindictive—AND ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED—lame-duck Obama gang, using the same compromised private operatives and FBI/CIA/DNI ring of confederates already coopted by Clinton.
Once again: it was the Clinton and later Obama (Inc.) all the way down.
There was NO genuine(!) Russian disinformation that the Democrats exploited (which is what Greenfield concludes—and which it ABSOLUTELY makes sense to conclude…even if wrongly).
As an aside, holding such an opinion seems to me to slightly let the Democrats off the hook here; i.e., slightly (in the sense of the Democrats, in order to destroy TRUMP, “merely” exploiting what was already, purportedly, put “out there” by the Russians).
As I understand(!) it (i.e., in my(!) view), the ONLY disinformation that was used was Danchenko’s (and his so-called “sources”) fed which “information” was filtered through Steele (and Steele’s supposed “sources”—after all, Steele was a former spy, so he HAD TO HAVE to have Russian sources, right?!… OF COURSE HE DID! It stands to REASON! It’s so very OBVIOUS).
But he didn’t. Steele HAD no REAL RUSSIAN sources. Moreover, he didn’t need any—since anyone and everyone would assume he DID HAVE them. He had Danchenko(!), that master confabulator who had seemed to be incredibly resourceful, inventive, imaginative and creative (and no doubt had a LOT of fun…even as he was getting paid handsomely).
OTOH, Steele DID NEED to make it seem as though he DID HAVE a source, a flesh and blood “source” (AKA scapegoat) on which to hang his garbage dossier.
And this is precisely where the innocent Sergei Millian, that poor SOB—comes in.
The need to frame Millian is PROOF that Steele HAD NO REAL SOURCES.
https://twitter.com/HansMahncke/status/1457493139363614726
Gosh, after all that nonsense, we probably should lighten up a bit.
Here’s the JOKE of the day:
The Great Man himself on “Challenges to Democracy”(!)—
https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1517333872375042048
H/T Jeff Carlson twitter feed.
…and if that doesn’t have you ROTL, here’s the HOAX of the day:
“…No, Kevin McCarthy Did Not Say Trump Should Resign Over J6”—
https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/04/media-hoax-no-kevin-mccarthy-did-not-say-trump-should-resign-over-j6/
Key graf:
“There they go again. The left and NeverTrump infotainment propagandists are busily twisting and spinning their claims that then-House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy wanted President Trump to resign after J6….”
File under: “Amusing Ourselves to Death”…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
Turtler-been putting up Democide link for years, often when someone discounts or vastly under estimates deaths of citizens of their own government.
https://amgreatness.com/2022/04/24/our-spanish-civil-war/
VDH
There’s also a rather striking irony alert:
(Could China actually be listening to Il Fauci?)
‘Chinese Stocks, Yuan, Commodities Crash As Covid Plunges Country Into “Darkest Moment In Decades”‘—
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/chinese-stocks-crash-covid-plunges-country-darkest-moment-decades
Related:
‘Ex-National Intelligence Director predicts more indictments in Durham probe
“I’m just saying this was a very coordinated effort,” said John Ratcliffe.’—
https://justthenews.com/government/courts-law/ex-national-intelligence-director-predicts-more-indictments-durham-probe
There’s a lot of comments here but I had to pipe in. The thing that rubs me the wrong way with this piece is what I seem to have seen a lot of: the easy setup of strawmen to then be easily knocked to the side. Perhaps I’m just not reading or watching the “right” conservatives to see the message, but I have yet to find one who has strongly embraced the Russian side of things. The author continues with the “with us or against us” positioning without leaving room for nuance. While he seemed to appear gracious in not naming names, I suspect this could also have been to keep scrutiny to a minimum. The most commonly criticized commenter on Russia/Ukraine seems to be Tucker Carlson. yet every time I have seen him speak he as always been careful to point out that Russia’s invasion is a bad thing and what is happening is wrong. I think the willingness to point out that there is a realpolitik argument that has been in the public discourse since the mid 90s seems to slip by many. Two things can be true: Russia is wrong and ALSO NATO expansion to the borders of Russia has finally provoked a response or, at the VERY LEAST, provided the excuse that Putin needed to achieve his other goals, whatever they may be. These are not mutually exclusive phenomena.
The real question is, what is a true reason?; and what is a useful excuse?
However, when one is dealing with either paranoiacs or thugs (or paranoiac thugs—thuggish paranoiacs?), the differences collapse on themselves and all bets are off. IOW, it really doesn’t matter.
In such cases, it only matters whether one has the power to withstand the aggression…and whether one is prepared/willing to use it.
The larger picture, presented as a comprehensive, panoramic synthesis of many of the strands of the current madness…IOW, how it’s ALL connected.
Not very surprising to those who’ve been paying attention, but well organized and presented…
“For The Narrative-Creators, The Play Is You… And You Are Not Real”—
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/narrative-creators-play-you-and-you-are-not-real
The current Ukrainian faction in charge got in power by bribing the Biden family to help effect regime change,
Actually, Zelenskyy was elected in 2019. He defeated the incumbent, who had been elected in 2014. This isn’t obscure information.
The regime is busy imprisoning its real enemys in the bastille on capitol hill smashing the supply lines emptying our fuel reserve letting the mobs run free, deforming the childrens bodies and minds they are the best ally putin could have dreamed they antagonize india brazil the saudis not unimportant players a hot war would enable them to escape accountability
And the “Uncontested Election”(TM) monster raises once again its menacing, triumphant head….
…except that…
“Are Democrats and Joe Biden up to their old election tricks?”—
https://nypost.com/2022/04/24/biden-is-up-to-old-election-tricks/
Key grafs:
‘The most compelling evidence to date has emerged in “2000 Mules,” the upcoming documentary by conservative filmmaker Dinesh D’Souza, who draws on research by election integrity group True The Vote to expose suspicious ballot harvesting.
‘Using cellphone geotracking and surveillance video, it shows a network of “mules” in battleground states busily collecting ballots from get-out-the-vote NGOs and stuffing them, a few at a time, into multiple drop boxes in the dead of night.
‘The extent of the operation is jaw-dropping….’
Nope, the Democrats are not at all worried about November 2022…or November 2024…or any other November in the future.
They stole our country from us, in order to destroy it, change my mind
Well if nothing else it does most certainly explains why Joe Biden was so “POPULAR”….
So WILDLY POPULAR.
So UNPRECEDENTLY WILDLY POPULAR.
(One would think that No Malarkey Joe would at least have the decency to thanks Donald Trump for his record-breaking, historic “VICTORY”…. But that would require that Joe have a shred of decency, honesty, class…)
They treat cops as criminals parents as terrorists whitewash actual criminals and terrorists encourage the self immolation of that nut bruce
Burton M. I suppose it’s academically important to figure if Putin really thought NATO was a threat or if he figured it was an excuse and a lot of people would buy the proposition, thus giving him some slack internationally.
Both here and elsewhere, I’ve seen arguments which would make “byzantine” look like straight-shootin’ cowboy lingo, referencing documents, understandings, speeches, all leading to the conclusion that the west’s skirt was too short and no blame applies to Putin.
I have been reminded of Sowell’s “Intellectuals and War”, especially as regards the era just prior to WW II.