Lia Thomas and objective vs. subjective reality
Lia Thomas has been declared an NCAA women’s champion:
Penn swimmer Lia Thomas won the women’s 500-yard freestyle championship on Thursday to become the first transgender NCAA champion in Division I history.
She finished the race in 4:33.24, beating Virginia’s Emma Weyant by 1.75 seconds. The time fell short of Katie Ledecky’s NCAA-record time of 4:24.06.
Thomas had been competing as a man until last season:
Her eligibility has come under scrutiny with critics arguing that she has an unfair advantage in the pool after she went through male puberty. She met NCAA standards to compete as a woman after undergoing testosterone suppression therapy for more than two years.
Since joining the women’s team, Thomas has broken two school records and posted the fastest times in the country in the 200 and 500-yard freestyle events. Now she’s an NCAA champion.
Look at any photo of Thomas and the ludicrous nature of allowing this person to compete as a woman becomes crystal clear. As a male, Thomas was a decent college swimmer. As a female, Thomas is a star. Whatever the reasons for Thomas’ declaration of womanhood – which we can speculate about but don’t know – elevation to athletic prominence from obsurity has been the result. But it’s a result that never would have happened if Thomas had not been allowed to compete as a woman, which is what the controversy is about.
Look at any photo of Thomas and you can see that this is a person who not only looks like a man but like a very strong, large, and powerful man, with enormous upper body strength. Thomas went through puberty as a man and trained for years as a man. The only thing that makes Thomas a woman is that Thomas has said so, plus some testosterone-suppressing hormones that do not alter those basics about Thomas.
Women’s sports are about separating out a class of people who in almost every sport would be bested by men, but who have skills nevertheless and should be competing against each other. Anyone is free to take an interest in watching women’s sports or to disdain them, but women’s sports have a valid reason for existing. I’ve always considered them somewhat the equivalent of weight classes in boxing or wrestling, in which like competes against like and there are pluses and minuses to watching each group. Thomas threatens the entire existence of women’s sports, or at least makes a mockery of them.
What interests me most about this situation is the insistence by the left and the woke that we ignore it and applaud Thomas’ victory, pretending that Thomas has achieved womanhood and that there’s nothing wrong with calling the woman who would have been the actual champion the runner-up instead. And why? Because of a perception in Thomas’ mind rather than a reality of Thomas’ body.
I have no trouble respecting the wishes of trans people to be called by their preferred pronouns. But I think that’s a personal decision on my part, and I am against anything that would compel a person to follow suit. But I do not support Thomas swimming as a woman, because that is elevating the subjective to the status of an objective truth that is in this case a falsehood about Thomas’ body. Nor do I support changing a person’s birth certificate to conform with that person’s later chosen sex, thus creating a fiction that the new classification had actually existed from birth.
I first encountered this idea that a subjective perception creates an actionable objective truth when I returned to the university during the 1990s to get my Master’s degree. I’d been away for two decades, and hadn’t closely followed what had been going on in universities in the meantime. When I returned, there was a big brouhaha going on at the university involving accusations of sexual harassment against
a professor who had said something ever so slightly risqué in a classroom and several students had objected mightily and charged him, and as a consequence he’d been suspended and ordered to re-education class.
To me, the situation was an absurd and potentially damaging elevation of a subjective perception – that this guy had said something offensive – to the status of an objective truth. In fact, we seemed to be losing the whole concept of objective truth versus the subjective feelings of the listener, and the superiority of the former over the latter for the determination of actual guilt or innocence. I stood up in class and pointed this out, thinking that I was speaking a nearly self-evident truth by saying so. But no one in the class even thought my little speech worthy of response.
At the time I didn’t understand the full significance of what was happening. Nor did I get its political nature or exactly where it would lead. But I knew it was wrong, and I knew it was dangerous.
Lia Thomas may identify as a woman. But the person known as Lia Thomas has the body of a man. Sports are about what bodies can do, and a sports organization such as the NCAA should not be elevating Thomas’ subjective perception over the objective truth of Thomas’ body.
As a trans woman myself, I struggle with this a lot.
I am no athlete, and will never find myself competing against women (though, unlike Lia, I am slender, small and compact and you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference between me and my friends, for example).
All that said, I have no desire, interest or right to force anyone to call, classify or determine _their_ opinion of me. I think the same should apply to sports.
Womens sports are not an identity competition, but then again…. I am not in her position and (live in a deep blue city) wouldn’t make my views public if I were.
I despise Thomas and his TransMyass mental disorder and I do have a big problem with going along with requested pronouns …..
That said, he is showing up to compete in a sport in which those who oversee the sport have altered the rules to allow any person who “declares” as a woman and who completes a year of hormone therapy can compete in these swimming meets. Right there you have a Thomas showing up and saying, “Hey, I’m complying with the rules of the sport” so FU all.
Thomas is not wrong. That’s why he gets to mount the starting blocks. Even though he is crazy he still gets the wins and the records with his name in front because . . . rules.
What is even crazier are the apparently endless numbers of female swimmers willing to actually show up and SWIM in races where the result is known. Why do they do so?
These “girls” need to take a page from Caitlyn Jenner and grow a pair of balls and just get up on the blocks and, when the starting gun goes off, just stand there and watch the twisted TransMyass male swim back and forth with nobody else in the pool.
When he finishes they can jump in and race each other if they wish.
That’s the only way to end this. In revolt and ridicule. Until they can muster that courage they will all remain what he has made them: losers.
Thomas seems to enjoy xer notoriety, not least by flaunting xer objectively male genitalia in the locker room– which makes her female teammates uncomfortable. From an article in the NY Post: “‘It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” [one Penn] swimmer said. Thomas has reportedly told her teammates that she dates women. The swimmer [said] that other team members have spoken to the team’s coaches about possibly getting Thomas to change elsewhere from the rest of the team, but those discussions haven’t gone anywhere. ‘Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,’ she said. ‘But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there’s nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room.’ She added, ‘It’s really upsetting because Lia doesn’t seem to care how it makes anyone else feel. The 35 of us are just supposed to accept being uncomfortable in our own space and locker room for, like, the feelings of one. The school was so focused on making sure Lia was okay, and doing everything they possibly could do for her, that they didn’t even think about the rest of us.'”
https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/
So it’s not just about privileging feelings over objective reality, but privileging a transgender person’s feelings over the feelings of 35 female teammates.
The only complication missing in the NCAA swimming controversy (so far) is race. A controversy that started in 2018 when two transgender athletes– both black– won high school girls’ track and field championships in Connecticut led to protesting parents being accused of racism. If Lia Thomas decides to identify as black as well as female (Rachel Dolezal in a swimsuit, IOW), reality really will take a holiday.
Gerard vanderleun:
As far as we know, some of the female athletes may be boycotting the races. Unless you know the usual roster, you wouldn’t know who’s missing.
But there are various considerations that might cause the women to keep competing. Those who are athletes might understand the desire to keep going and do your personal best in a sport that perhaps you even enjoy. The women who come in second and third are also going on record with those times and probably hope that some day a new ruling will come down and Thomas’ name might be removed and they will get acknowledged as the real winners. They also might be on athletic scholarships and could lose their scholarships and their ability to go to college if they quit. That’s an awful lot of sacrifice to ask of them. Lastly, they would face cancellation by the woke mob. Again, that would take tremendous courage, not just a small amount of courage, and a courage that would be extremely difficult for someone in that environment and in that age group. It’s easy to call on others to do it, and I wish they would do it, but I don’t fault them overly for not doing it. The blame is with Thomas and especially with the sports officials who have allowed this to happen, and that very much includes the coach of the swim team.
Leah:
I value your opinion and wish you the best.
Not my call to do anything more than agree or disagree on men competing as women. So with that off my shoulders males, born that way have no right to complete with females if the sport competition is only for females.
Calling myself Napoleon doesn’t make me the Emperor of the French no matter what I believe.
The elevation of subjective feelings over objective reality is one of the key problems we face as a society.
Gender dysphoria was a rare condition. What explains the explosion?
Is this just another manifestation of the endless need for victims who can only be protected by Democrats?
Is this just SOP Democrat victim defense taken to an absurd extreme?
If there is a shortage of victims some must be created, so we saw microaggressions and trigger warnings, but that was mostly just ignored or ridiculed. Gender really riles up the Conservatives. They finally hit paydirt.
Men competing in women’s sports based on subjective identity is a prime example of the triumph of postmodernism. It’s all about the feelings.
“They might be victims, but they’re OUR victims….”
Dick: This bright, articulate, detransitioned young woman tells her story in this lengthy piece. Highly recommended:
https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name
As a nation, a culture, a civilization we are hopelessly lost. We had a good run but I’m pretty black-pilled these days. I don’t see any way back home.
The status attached to Ivy League schools is also a factor in the Lia Thomas controversy, as Suzy Weiss noted in a Substack post: As much as wingspan, heart size, lung capacity, bone density, or nanomoles of testosterone per liter of blood, the story of Lia Thomas is a story about the Ivy League and the class of people that tends to populate it. These kids and their parents are ultra-competitive—in swimming, in schooling, and socially. In some cases, these families passed up scholarships to D1 schools so that the kids could swim for Columbia, or Dartmouth or Cornell or Yale and pick up a more elite diploma along with a varsity letter. Getting here meant a decade or so of early practices, endless carpools, faraway meets, college visits, charity projects, SAT prep and AP classes. But getting in doesn’t mean an end to the prep and the striving. There are still job prospects, summer internships, and graduate school admissions to worry about. The [swimmers’ parents] love prestige, and they love rules. Rules got them and their kids where they are; these are the highest-scoring rule-followers in the country. But now the rules—Thomas has followed all of the Ivy League and NCAA ones—have turned on them. . . . One of the Penn moms says her own daughter warned her against speaking out. ‘She’s worried about getting into grad school, and she doesn’t want my name or hers to come up on Google attached to this.’
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/watching-lia-thomas-win?s=r
Elevating “the subjective to the status of an objective truth” is the entire premise of post modernist thought, which essentially posits that there is no objective truth.
That reality itself is only subjective.
Jordan Peterson gets right to the heart of post modernist beliefs @ the 1:30 second mark in this video lecture.
https://youtu.be/Cf2nqmQIfxc
Post modernism isn’t just dangerous, it is Satanic because it completely rejects the worth of the individual. Post modernism does not allow for the inherent dignity of the individual. Which of course is a direct rejection of the concept of “human rights”. Since post modernism rejects the objectivity that extends from logic and reason as constructs of an oppressive Patriarchy, the concept of hypocrisy is declared an invalid, null concept. So they can directly contradict themselves in the same breath.
That is what we are up against. Literally an insanity, given that sanity is defined as being mentally congruent with our external objective reality.
Did you hear that somewhere in Britain a woman said she was raped in a hospital, But no one listened because it was a women’s hospital or ward? I guess trannies are women even in medical settings There is something Darwinian going on in our very comfortable West.
When there is no individual worth, virtue signalling is literally a requisite for survival itself.
Assuming sincerity, transgenderism is inherently a conflict between their external objective biological reality and their subjective mental feelings. The mind and bodily reality are incongruent. The body and mind lack integration. That is a terrible burden and certainly a personnal tragedy.
Post modernisn not only elevates the subjective to objective truth, it demands that we all do so too because societal affirmation is essential to the illusion of bodily reality being subsumed to the subjective. If the congruent bend the knee to the incongruent’s 57 genders, then societal cohesion cannot but be lost. Thus the left’s support for an ‘ideology’ that will inescapably result in societal dissolution. A necessary precondition for the Great Reset.
Competing for the first 3 years in the men’s division and turning in mediocre performances, Will Thomas, aka Lia Thomas is reportedly still attracted to women.
That leads me to doubt the sincerity of his ‘transformation’. When competing in the men’s division, had he instead won, I rather doubt if he’d have felt compelled to declare himself a woman trapped in a male body.
He also insists upon showering with the women. Compelling silent acceptance from his teammates of the proposition that elevates “the subjective to the status of an objective truth”.
Proving himself to be a thoroughly selfish and insensitive individual.
Within at most 10 years, most if not every woman’s record is likely to be held by a biological male.
Here is a more complete description of the British hospital:
https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2022/03/18/uk-hospital-claimed-victim-couldnt-have-been-raped-because-attacker-was-a-trans-woman-n456333
Thomas finished fifth in the 250. Beaten by a bunch of girls!
The Olympics required trans-women to have a certain estrogen level for a certain length of time to be eligible for competition; not sure what the NCAA standard is. But who the heck can say that this is a standard that levels the physical capabilities between the two types? I say it would be best to go with XX and XY chromosome competitions, and just leave out how a person may psychologically “identify” with one or another social construct surrounding gender. That seems like a neutral approach; no offense intended.
Caption seen on a meme:
No normal adult has ever interacted with a six year old child and then thought: I’d like to teach you about sex.
Again, the women athletes should be organizing against this to counterbalance whichever collection of lawfare artists has intimidated the jellyfish at the NCAA.
[My own, personal solution to this problem]:
I think that fairness should be done in all sports in schools, in all of the US: colleges, universities, + grade schools/schools made for kids about ages one through 18 years old.
To try to make sports fair, to all those people in these schools, then I’d create 3 types of teams:
– one set of teams for the males,
-one set of teams for the females,
-and one set of teams for all the genders who wish to join that team.
That way- those people who don’t mind competing against people of all of the genders- can join the 3rd kind of team, and- those who want to be on the males team can join it, and those who want to be on the females team can join it.
That way, all of the people can take the path that they desire to take.
That is my idea on how to set up sports teams, so that all people can join them.
My preferred pronoun is “Sir”, as in “Yes sir,”, “No sir,” “Immediately, sir” “. Don’t see any argument, given current circumstances.
I know this is unlikely, but I can’t shake this feeling that maybe Lia/Will is secretly a conservative playing the long con. Like, he still actually believes himself to be a man secretly and disagrees with transgender women participating in women’s sports, but he’s dedicated to exposing what a sham it is. I mean, all he’s done is taken some pills (which he can stop whenever) and grow his hair out (which can be cut). Even his name – Lia – while pronounced “Leah” (right?) looks like it could be pronounced “Lie-uh.” Liar?
I know, I know….it’s a little conspiracy theory-ish. But man…I’d love for him to suddenly detransition in the next 6 months and come out and say it was all a ruse to prove biological men have no place in women’s sports.
Not being woke … I don’t follow womyn sports at all.
So I really have no opinion on this. Nor do I need one.
There are homeless people in my area. There are children who go to sleep at night – or try to anyway – in my area. THESE are the people I care about.
Part of me keeps waiting for young Mr Thomas to get to a point where he “outs himself & says, “See. I’ve been a man all along & simply playing a game that proves what we all know but refuse to acknowledge: Men & women are different & those differences are baked into the DNA. Punked!” Or some such folly as that.
He’ll be drawn & quartered by the Trans-mafia…literally…but maybe that’s part of the game he’s playing. One can at least wonder.
I don’t wonder. He is as he presents himself: a low perverted cheat.
So far the competing women haven’t taken a principled stand and boycotted en mass the competitive events. I know that their athletic scholarships would then be at risk and possibly forfeit. Big sacrifice but if not, much of women’s sports will die.
NS,
Agreed, it’s probably unlikely but if Will Thomas is actually doing this to expose the utter stupidity of the situation, my hat wil be off to him.
Cornhead:
Perhaps every now and then Thomas throws the race in order to make previous wins seem more credible.
“I do not support Thomas swimming as a woman, because that is elevating the subjective to the status of an objective truth that is in this case a falsehood about Thomas’ body. Nor do I support changing a person’s birth certificate to conform with that person’s later chosen sex, thus creating a fiction .. . .[Neo]”
Post modernism . . . it completely rejects the worth of the individual. Post modernism does not allow for the inherent dignity of the individual. [Geoffrey Britain @ 5:49]
On the Dr, Phil Show, Matt Walsh summed up the situation succinctly:
Link:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/landonmion/2022/01/22/matt-walshdr-phil-n2602091
” . . . it’s probably unlikely but if Will Thomas is actually doing this to expose the utter stupidity of the situation, my hat wil be off to him.” [Geoffrey Britain @ 9:44]
He may not be doing it for such a noble purpose, but his actions may ulitmately have that effect.
To me it seems to be the old Theory v. Practice conundrum. In theory (IMO) no one should be supporting this reduction of womanhood to cosplay, but in practice, the only way to bring it to heel might well be to allow it to totally obliterate women’s sports by creating a situation that no one is interested in financially supporting or watching (the winner being known prior to the event). Then after a good “I told you so,” rebuild women’s sports from the ground up.
After all, with Thomas as an example, Penn is allowiing him to compete in women’s sports, and the NCAA is also willing to abide his participation. They both need to get their comeuppance good and hard (as H.L. Mencken has said) especially with the extensive loss of donor support. Hit ’em where they will really feel the pain.
The next frontier– already crossed by (thankfully) a very few humans– is trans-species identification. A psychiatrist at Harvard Medical School wrote up a case of a depressed teenager who “said [during the initial consultation] that since early adolescence, he had led a secret life as a cat. . . . the patient admitted that as a child, he felt closer to his family’s pet cat Tiffany than to his parents. In fact, he said he fell in love with Tiffany and came to believe that he too was a feline, and that at age 11, he learned to ‘speak cat.’ . . . What he reported next is so remarkable, I will quote directly from the psychiatrist’s report, lest you think I am embellishing: ‘When alone, he began to regularly hunt with cats, to eat small prey and raw meat, to have sexual activity with cats in serial monogamous relationships, and to converse with them by mewing and feline gestures. He reports that the activities have been continuous and are not confined to episodes of depression.'” The 1990 case report goes on to state that the patient, then aged 26, ” . . . was able to function in society, [but] his belief that he was a cat was unshakable. He also would have stood out from the crowd as he wore tiger-striped clothes, sported exceptionally long nails, and had long, bushy hair and a beard, giving him a distinctive cat-like appearance.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/its-catching/201607/the-man-who-thought-he-was-cat
Back to Lia Thomas: even if xe is just a troll trying to “expose the utter stupidity of the situation,” as Geoffrey Britain said earlier, xe may pay a price in midlife or even earlier for taking cross-sex hormones. Just as we do not know the potential long-range adverse effects of the mRNA COVID vaxxes, the jury is not yet in about the long-term effects of hormone treatments in transgender people. One known effect is sterility; others may include cardiovascular disorders and possibly cancer. Thomas may have cause some day to regret his transition even if he decides to detransition in the near future.
There’s something to be said for deeply disturbed people voluntarily removing themselves from the gene pool.
Related:
“‘Somebody Has Got To Come Out And Say Something’: Dad Slams ‘Gatekeepers’ For Making His Daughter Swim Against A Biological Man
“Standing up for the integrity of women’s sports does not make one transphobic.”
https://www.dailywire.com/news/somebody-has-got-to-come-out-and-say-something-dad-slams-gatekeepers-for-making-his-daughter-swim-against-a-biological-man
Key graf:
‘…“I just feel that somebody has got to come out and say something…but we cannot do this argument with hate. We have to do it in a conversational tone, welcoming dialogue, because that’s the only way things are really going to get resolved.”….’
Seems like a super decent fellow. Wish him lotsaluck (and hope that his principled “no hate” stance is not met with mocking laughter…or death threats to him and his family)….
“Catman”….
That’s nuthin’.
Here’s a bear who thinks he just might be a therapy pig….(but de-transitioned from that “idea” real quick…).
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10630927/Video-shows-fierce-pair-therapy-pigs-Hammy-Mary-fend-BLACK-BEAR.html
“I have no trouble respecting the wishes of trans people to be called by their preferred pronouns.” Yes, that’s how it always starts. Normal people have no desire to go out of their way to offend, even when it is the intent of the other to seek to provoke offense, thereby justifying their cry of “discrimination,” “hate speech,” etc. I, on the other hand tend to stand with the estimable Jordan Peterson on this issue, and refuse to betray my own intellectual integrity merely to accede to the unreasonable demands of some demented person. Must we agree to address the person suffering from the delusion that he is Napoleon by bowing and addressing him as Your Excellency? This madness should be seen for what it is and on no occasion and under no circumstances should we agree with it, politeness notwithstanding.
Steve (retired/recovering lawyer) :
I don’t think you’ve listened all that carefully to what Peterson has actually said, because I’ve listened to many of his discussions and speeches on the subject and my position is the same as his. He has said that he personally usually refers to people as they present themselves socially in public, but that this is HIS personal decision and he is totally against any law or rule that would compel any person’s decision in that regard. Also, like Peterson, I would not be inclined to use special invented pronouns, although I didn’t include that in the post. By “preferred pronouns” I mean the traditional pronouns “he” or “she.”
If you’d like to hear Peterson speak on the subject, please watch this video. The entire thing will make it pretty clear – it’s not long – but the part that is most important begins with the question at 2:28.
We are here in some measure because we did not have the sense to prohibit by law the mutilating and poisoning procedures which generate these freaks and because our institutions are run by cretins and poltroons who accommodate them.
“Must we agree to address the person suffering from the delusion that he is Napoleon by bowing and addressing him as Your Excellency?”
Brings to mind “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn”…(which probably is one of those books that should be reread every two or three years or so, along with “1984”…YMMV of course…)
Wait, can we even find HF, let alone read it?…(Well, maybe in samizdat…if we’re lucky.)
…Hold on—in fact, YES!! Thanks to some very intrepid, inspired and indefatigable librarians (though you’ll to travel to offshore Maine)…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10630429/Maine-island-library-wants-banned-books.html
(Something tells me they’re gonna need “a bigger island”….)
Imagine that: reading HF as an act of defiance and rebellion….
Neo:
I watched the clip of Peterson above, and followed his whole pronoun argument some years ago (2015 or 2016) when he first rose to prominence because of it.
I believe, even based on the short clip, that you misunderstand his argument. He was talking about using pronouns when talking to, not about, transgender individuals. As I recall, he reserved the right to judge for himself whether the person he was talking with was sincere and worthy of respect, or rather playing a power game. He rejects the idea that politeness or “compassion” should guide us. He said it was _simpler_ or easier (I forget his exact term) to go by gender presentation “normally”, not that it was polite to do so. Being compelled to use pronouns out of “politeness” is almost as destructive as being compelled to use them by law: you are playing the left’s power games. I believe the earlier part of the video goes into it.
As Lia Thomas seems to be a prime example of cynical and opportunistic exploitation of our timidity and politeness, I don’t think Peterson would would recommend playing along, even by your own “choice.”
Funny, Barry . . . though I happened to have Cary Grant addressing Uncle Teddy in Arsenic and Old Lace” to mind instead.
Thomas is a dishonorable punk. What a trash controversy!
“…Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women…”
Looks like a man, acts like a man – to quote Buffy the Vampire Slayer :”do the math”
Just another example of how easy it is to coerce the majority (in this case real females) and probably 99% of all people, to accept (willingly or otherwise) the demands and edicts of a very small minority of radicals (transgenders who demand special privileges) , who have “convinced” a rule-setting body (the NCAA) to accept what is patently a fraud, a scam , a lie (that a man is a female because he says he is).
If blame is to be assigned , it must be placed upon the NCAA. What a bunch of useful idiots they are.
People are very easy to manipulate and have them led around like sheep. Bad guys, in particular (e.g. Stalin / Hitler / Mao types) are more aware of this than most folks and use this to their advantage; ditto for radical groups demanding a change in societal norms.
History, in general, is “made” by minority groups (that is, a minority in numbers) who take the bull by its horns and impose their will upon the majority.
What we are witnessing with this transgender tyranny is an incredibly small group of mentally ill freaks imposing their will upon 99% of the people.
I could care less if someone identifies as transgender or a cat or a dog or a pig or as Jesus Christ. What really pisses me off is these freaks demand that other people acknowledge that their personal world view MUST be accepted by everybody else and that normal societal norms must be discarded and/or turned upside down because they demand it.
F them.
Bruce Jenner has it right; he claims to be a female. Fine. His decision. It’s none of my business; I have no right to tell him how to live his life.
He does not demand special privileges nor that society upend one million years of human evolution / experience to accommodate his personal demons / proclivities.
I am no veterinarian, but I can recognize a dog or a cat when I see one.
Geoffrey Britain on March 19, 2022 at 5:49 pm: Great statement/ comment!
And again another at 6:08pm.
But perhaps at 6:32pm you over stated here: “Within at most 10 years, most if not every woman’s record is likely to be held by a biological male.”
My quick check for woman with the highest number of births suggests that record (among at least 10 women) is somewhere between 33 and (improbably) 69 children (many via multiple child births — twins to septuplets?). I doubt any man will come close to those records. 🙂 But, yes, you did qualify with “most”.
https://www.therichest.com/the-biggest/10-mothers-who-gave-birth-to-the-most-children-ever/
Extending the OT: some day someone may invent successful artificial wombs, as an extension of existing neonatal care capability, which will put the lie to allowing abortions, but might eventually develop to the point they could be inserted/ installed in a biological male and permit “him” to have a “live birth”. Ouch!!
Her parents must be proud.
A transgender lesbian. We live in interesting times.
I look forward to this swimmers documentary showing that he is against trans in sports and his whole experience was to prove that point.
@Fullmoon:
A transgender lesbian with a penis, no less.
It’s an effing sham is what it is…
Too late for woman of the year nomination?
Who could have guessed anorexia was a few decades early?
Imagine now we would have to tell the girls (mostly) they were fat at 93 pounds
Still think Prager’s Fear of the Left is the biggest motivating factor in the country ( world) is a lot of it, courage is the hardest to be.
I don’t believe the crazy trans stuff is forever.
It’s fascinating that the Woke Folk managed to put it into play so strong, but I don’t think it’s forever. Trans people have won respect as individuals, of course, but the crazy stuff like men competing as women won’t last. I doubt even most Democrats support that, though everyone is afraid to say boo.
For now.
But now changes. The pendulumn is starting to swing in the other direction and IMO it will wipe out much of the Woke crazy like “Men can be women” and “Defund the police.”
Steve
” … Must we agree to address the person suffering from the delusion that he is Napoleon by bowing and addressing him as Your Excellency?”
Reading this, my 1st thought was Biden.
It’s too bad so many helped him into the WH, then played along that his orders (eg: Afghanistan) had to be executed* — even supported. And his lies repeated, though sometimes massaged (– or “explained differently”)
Like pretending Thomas is a sane, brave woman.
I won’t. He’s not an innocent 5 yr. old, pretending.
He is, like Biden (& handlers), hurting many other people.
* Generals who advised a decent plan for Afghanistan withdrawal should have refused, & resigned. That’s courage and honor.
Excellent, fast forward to next summer Olympiad Russia wins all medals in all events with transgendered women. USA unable to complain as HEY! Russia says we followed your rules USA. What are you transphobic ?? we remember when you took away our woman Polish stars medal. The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming …
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10612285/California-mom-claims-LA-school-encouraged-daughter-transition-blame-suicide.html
Every member of the mental health trade, every member of the medical profession, every public employee implicated in this catastrophe belongs in prison.
Huxley,
“I don’t believe the crazy trans stuff is forever. ”
Groups like teachers unions, school administrators, & many lefty teachers sure want to grow the Trans pool.
They push normalizing it to young kids, who are vulnerable, gullible, & may be starving for attention.
This is grooming — part of the slippery slope they’ve been executing downhill quite successfully. Starting by introducing “fluidity” of sexual orientation.
Kids are curious, & crave attention, & approval — teacher & peer approval. Often older peer attention,too.
It’s detrimental in many ways.
Nancy B:
I don’t think you understand what I said and how it relates to what Peterson said.
I have never said a word about doing something because of politeness, nor do I recommend that anyone else make one decision or another about it. I have described my own position about my own use of pronouns as well as about compelled speech. I have watched and listened to many many Peterson videos on the subject and my interpretation of his words is that his position is the same as mine.
I wrote: “I have no trouble respecting the wishes of trans people to be called by their preferred pronouns.” That is basically what Peterson said – and note the phrase “called by” is NOT the same as “referred to as.” “Called by” implies that the person is present and that you are addressing the person.
It may have escaped your notice that in the entire post I refer to Thomas by name and never by pronoun. Go back and look at it. That’s how I choose to deal with the third-person references and pronouns. Others can choose for themselves.
Huxley,
“The pendulumn is starting to swing in the other direction and IMO it will wipe out much of the Woke crazy like “Men can be women” and “Defund police … ”
I hope so. But not soon enough!!
The victims (– of both the crazy-woke things you mention: women’s sports & defunding police) will never be UN-victimized.
Each & every individual’s harm that the left keep allowing is real, and each matters.
Art Deco,
“Every member of the mental health trade, every member of the medical profession, every public employee implicated in this catastrophe belongs in prison.”
Yes!!
I add to your list: Parents* pushing it, too.
(Seems like Munchausen syndrome.)
* Am not referring to the parents in your example, of course. They are victims, as well.
It’s child abuse, pure and simple.
But since it’s the kind of child abuse that the Left approves of, encourages and promotes—“self-actualization”!? “liberation from unbearable societal constraints”!? shedding “conservative” mores!? leaving those confining parents in the dust!? CAUSING PAIN TO ALL THE RIGHT PEOPLE!?—then hey, it’s simply the cat’s meow. (It can’t possibly be anything else.)
(I.e., the RIGHT kind of child abuse….)
Meanwhile the damage done to all those kids may well be irreparable. (Let’s hope not. Indeed, kids can be incredibly resilient…but is THAT an excuse to abuse them?…OTOH, there are things that can never really be forgotten or undone….)
But, hey….
…Meanwhile, those nasty, brutish Trumpist Deplorables, INSURRECTIONISTS, TRAITORS AND TERRORISTS….
It’s been a while since I read “1984” but, as I recall, a main theme of the book was to force Winston Smith to agree that 2+2=5. That is what is going on here. “Lia” Thomas is a man amusing himself by forcing women to allow him to play with them, not just swimming but in the locker room. I have no idea what his plans for the future are but I suspect he will “detransition” as soon as the game is over. Removal of his penis and testicles would not be a procedure that would interrupt his training for more than two months.
The most fundamental fact is that Thomas has a male genome. No amount of effort will ever change that.
My personal pronoun is “sir”.
Groups like teachers unions, school administrators, & many lefty teachers sure want to grow the Trans pool.
Marv:
Well, it’s not over until it’s over, but that’s my bet. Certainly, there are groups pulling for trans crazy for “will to power” reasons. That doesn’t mean they will prevail.
I read history and see that everything has a season but nothing lasts forever. The French Revolution ate its leaders. The Soviets mostly gave up Lysenkoism. Most Americans didn’t take LSD despite Tim Leary’s and the Woodstock Generation’s best efforts.
Though if one measured any of those phenomena at their peaks then extrapolated in a straight line, one would assume their victories.
Barry Meislin, @ 3:51 pm:
Quite the post. I totally agree.
“It’s child abuse, pure and simple.” … and “the RIGHT kind of child abuse…”
— Yes, they want ever more “anti-normal converts”, for more chaos, and more radical control over people just trying to live their lives.
And it’s never enough for them. What will they defend & push, NEXT?
“Meanwhile the damage done to all those kids may well be irreparable. (Let’s hope not. Indeed, kids can be incredibly resilient…but is THAT an excuse to abuse them?…OTOH, there are things that can never really be forgotten or undone….) ”
The resilient trait: as you wrote “kids can be incredibly resilient”
Yes. I hope that trait remains innate.
We all know people who do not have a stable home. The “woke” grooming occurring at some public schools (– and after-school events) is VERY powerful. Especially when home is not sane or safe, or if the kids are neglected, there.
Which reminds me of the kids who get recruited into gangs. A place to belong is often not easily escaped.
Mike K:
Do you mean detransition or do you mean transition? “Detransition” means that Thomas would start using male pronouns again and would re-identify as male.
Huxley,
Good points, thanks.
On this: “Well, it’s not over until it’s over, but that’s my bet. Certainly, there are groups pulling for trans crazy for “will to power” reasons. That doesn’t mean they will prevail.”
I hope you are right!
That said: If you are right (or even if not — I.e. if “crazy-Trans” support continues to stomp on other groups’ rights): I wonder what is NEXT. Part of the game the radical left play is to keep adding “special” groups that then get awarded special protections, such as “No one may question or argue with anything they want, else you are an xyz-phobic hater!”
Then some of them get special positions, as Biden has done in his administration. Purely for DIE sake, sadly. Not merit or function or strengths.
Mike K:
Do you mean detransition or do you mean transition? “Detransition” means that Thomas would start using male pronouns again and would re-identify as male.
Yes, I don’t think he is serious. This is a game and he is enjoying himself. I have even read that he has said he is still attracted to females. I think he is getting off on playing female. When all this is over and the fun is over, I doubt he will go through the rest.
I wonder what is NEXT. Part of the game the radical left play is to keep adding “special” groups that then get awarded special protections, such as “No one may question or argue with anything they want, else you are an xyz-phobic hater!”
Marv:
True. However, that they have gone from blacks to feminist women to gays and now to trans strongly suggests the low-hanging fruit has been picked and they are pretty high up in the branches now.
I recall, as a leftist, watching a documentary on the 60s Berkeley radical movement and realizing that sort of activism worked because there truly was a large group of people (blacks) unjustly treated and obviously so. What could the left do next I wondered.
The left had a good thing going, but IMO they have reached the end of that string. Not that they will stop trying, of course, but the Law of Diminishing Returns catches up with everybody.
BabylonBee recognizes Rachael Levine as Man of the Year.
https://notthebee.com/article/twitter-just-suspended-the-babylon-bee-for-calling-rachel-levine-a-man
h/t InstaPundit.com
They will not be mocked! Stompy feet dance follows.
Thomas came in LAST in the 100 free. Girl power!
I watched a number of college basketball games in the last four days. At every game, the cheerleaders were required to wear masks by the NCAA. It is a sick, liberal organization.
It is a sick, liberal organization.
It would be agreeable if schools would spin off their athletic centers which would be the locus of a set of commercial farm teams. Those on the farm teams would not typically be enrolled as students. Competition in each sport would be sanctioned by a league specific to that sport. NCAA could be dissolved.
Huxley @ 8:22 pm:
“However, that they have gone from blacks to feminist women to gays and now to trans strongly suggests the low-hanging fruit has been picked and they are pretty high up in the branches now. ”
Indeed. Which is why they began the “intersectionality” theme.
Upping the “special people” group count by adding the combinatorial dimension.
Slick & sick, IMO.
I much prefer the meritocracy that America was once based on.
@ Neo > “Lia Thomas may identify as a woman. But the person known as Lia Thomas has the body of a man. Sports are about what bodies can do, and a sports organization such as the NCAA should not be elevating Thomas’ subjective perception over the objective truth of Thomas’ body.”
IMO, that’s the best brief expression of the whole problem that I’ve read so far.
@ Mike K > “Removal of his penis and testicles would not be a procedure that would interrupt his training for more than two months.”
If I’ve followed the sCiEnCe correctly, what difference, at this point, would that make?
The body he has now was created by hormones doing their thing during puberty and by his prior years of swim training as a male.
It will take a long time for his advantages to disappear, if they ever will.
However, I support making it a law that you aren’t trans-whatever for any legal or regulatory purpose (and these days sports orgs have a strong legal component) until you change the plumbing.
@ fullmoon > “Too late for woman of the year nomination?”
The Bee went you one better, and got hit for it – as Neo rightly asserts any dissident sportsWOMEN will be hit for bucking the narrative.
https://notthebee.com/article/twitter-just-suspended-the-babylon-bee-for-calling-rachel-levine-a-man
“So The Babylon Bee hilariously named Rachel Levine its “Man of the Year,” playing off the fact that USA Today even more hilariously named Levine its “Woman of the Year” despite the fact that Rachel Levine (AKA Richard Levine) is a biological male.”
That violated the Twit’s “hate speech” rule – the one that only works one direction.
@ Cornhead > “Thomas finished fifth in the 250. Beaten by a bunch of girls!”
There are strong suspicions that HE elected to throw a couple of races that didn’t mean as much.
https://www.breitbart.com/sports/2022/03/19/watch-lia-thomas-finishes-last-place-in-ncaa-championship-100-yard-freestyle/
“Lia Thomas finished last place in the NCAA championship 100-yard freestyle on Saturday after a string of victories in which the famed Penn transgender swimmer beat out Olympic silver medalists.”
“Doing it on purpose” was one response.
The Eleventh Commandment:
“Thou shalt be as freakin’ crazy as WE are.”
(Or maybe it’s the First?…the ONLY?….)
@ JohnTyler > “I am no veterinarian, but I can recognize a dog or a cat when I see one.”
Indeed.
https://notthebee.com/article/im-not-a-vet-but-i-know-what-a-dog-is-based-british-woman-takes-on-woke-soy-boy-in-argument-about-lia-thomas
And I know a dog’s tail from his leg.
https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2022/03/Lincoln-dog.png?resize=768%2C1025&ssl=1
Random thoughts:
Objective/Subjective Truth: When it comes to “news,” my husband and I have given up on the idea that we “know” what is “really” happening. We admit we read stuff that purports to be “news” and that is about as far as we can figure that there is any “truth” on it. I hate to give Steven Colbert any credit for anything, but “truthiness” had prevailed.
On to the topic of transgenders:
In my undergraduate days, I met a transgender woman. I’d’ve never known that she had been born a make if someone hadn’t told me. I might’ve eventually noticed that she had large feet and a bit if an Adam’s apple. But she was gorgeous with great legs. Back then, people had to go through a period of preparatory stuff before transitioning. (It now seems that someone just had to go to a doctor and claim their gender dysphoria.)
I also knew some gay men who dressed in drag. They would affect an alternate persona in their drag costume, and refer to themselves as women. But they also would go back and forth between that person and their regular make self.
There were also some people in my undergraduate days (mostly young women) who tried to pass themselves of as sitting kind of “genderless.” They’d try to keep you guessing. The ones I personally knew all grew out of it.
Pronouns were never an issue.
I think that recently, the explosion in the number of transgenders has more to do with troubled teens, people gaming some system, and younger people trying to push the boundaries of what is considered edgy or avant-garde then any actual dysphoria.
I think Thomas is gaming the system. I am willing to bet that after graduation, Thomas’ll revert back to being a full-fledged male. “Oh, well, I was mistaken. With therapy and time, I’ve come to the realization…” Blah, blah, blah.
}}} Anyone is free to take an interest in watching women’s sports or to disdain them, but women’s sports have a valid reason for existing.
I generally find women’s professional sports even more boring and dull than most men’s sports (and I really don’t pay a lot of attention to men’s sports, either), but I have no issues with either existing, NCAA or pro (though the idea of equal pay when the women cannot get the same kind of interest as men in an arena where the interest level is where money comes from is absurd).
Women should be able to compete in sports — if they feel they can compete at the men’s levels, they should be allowed the same tryout opportunities as any man. BUT, no, unfortunately, the reverse cannot be offered for the very reasons women’s sports ARE separated off, women as a group cannot fairly compete with men as a group, they will virtually always lose, and that does not ack the opportunity for them to excel on their own and show that, at least given a similar bar, they can compete with each other.
}}} In fact, we seemed to be losing the whole concept of objective truth versus the subjective feelings of the listener,
As noted many many times before — this is PostModernism at work. PostModernism attacks every single solitary aspect of the Enlightenment and the Renaissance. It is an attack on Western Civilization itself.
And PostModern Liberals (which is now >95% of self-identified ‘liberals’, as opposed to the older ‘classical’ liberal) are, as a result, a cancer on this Civilization. Literal, not figurative.
And it’s about to die from it, if we don’t start realizing this and doing something about it.
The ideas which have singularly improved the lot of people steadily for 400 years are about to falter and die. Ones which have enabled us to have 7.5 billion humans on this planet.
And we have far far too many people for things to continue with other ideas that are untested and unlikely to be even marginally close to as effective in supporting those lives.
I fear for the next 100 years of humanity.
Gender dysphoria exists as a mental disorder, analogous to anorexia nervosa, as a form of body integrity identity disorder. People with BIID feel a compulsion to have normal functional body parts removed- arms, legs, or in the case of GD, penis or breasts.
In my view, any physician who cooperates in this delusion by mutilating these patients should be charged with malpractice, and, if surgery is done, battery. We don’t allow female genital mutilations, we don’t allow anorectics to have bariatric surgery. This is no different. Mentally disordered individuals do not have capacity to consent to surgery.
Better to be dysphoric than dysphoric and mutilated.
“Objective vs. Subjective Reality”
Yep, the fight of the century.
And the winner of this most unvanilla “Thrilla in Manilla” is…KING UTTAH INSANITY.
Indeed, Insanity rules. (Well, we can’t say we weren’t warned….)
“HHS Sec. Xavier Becerra Promotes Critical Race Theory-Based ‘Health Equity’ as Top Priority”—
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/03/19/hhs-sec-xavier-becerra-promotes-critical-race-theory-based-health-equity-as-top-priority/
H/T Blazingcatfur blog.
Key graf:
“Health equity has to be part of everything we do…”
(IOW, DIE you white supremacist, Conservative, Republican racist, MAGA Trump Supporter. Unless you REPENT. And we ARE…merciful to those who repent….)
Related:
“SAN FRANCISCO’S OUT OF CONTROL CRIME NO LONGER DENIABLE”—
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/03/san-franciscos-out-of-control-crime-no-longer-deniable.php
H/T Instapundit.
Actually, everything is “deniable”. These days.
In fact, plausible deniability isn’t even a thing anymore. Isn’t even necessary. For example, all “Biden” (in “his” Psaki archetype) has to do is tell stories. Or bait ‘n switch. Or stare silently.
We’ve come a long way, baby….
I thought in general “Men’s” sports aren’t really men’s, they’re open gender. Anybody that can qualify can play. IE Women’s already can try out for a college Men’s basketball team but they don’t have a prayer of actually making the team on merit.
West Texas Intermediate Crude has the right of it.
Neo:
I specifically noted that Peterson was talking about how one addresses trans individuals individually. That’s why I have trouble seeing how you say you are following Peterson’s advice in your posts.
I did not say that you had used “she” in this post about Lia Thomas. (I admit that I reacted this time, partially because the same issue had come up in an earlier post, where you had called whoever “she” and was called out in the comments. It’s my recollection, possibly mistaken, that you did use the politeness argument there. I don’t seem to be able to call up the right search terms to find that post — a couple of weeks? or maybe months ago).
I would point out, however, that your solution of no pronouns is a capitulation. The demand is that one not “misgender” anyone. The ruse of not using any pronouns in fact accedes to that demand.
And fwiw, viewing Peterson’s philosophy of addressing people, at least initially, by their presented gender, is these days highly verboten by the powers that be. That’s why they’ve come up with this “my pronouns are” stuff.
This is a rather silly dispute — except that I do think it’s a demonstration of how, in the end, we punt and avoid giving offence even to an object deserving of it, such as Thomas.
Nancy B:
Yes, it is a silly dispute.
You are trying to remember what I said in another comment or post somewhere – you don’t know where. Why don’t you just stick to what I’m saying here, which is exactly what Peterson said? I already explained in my previous comment to you; I think it’s pretty clear.
I have known trans people socially and I try to treat everyone with respect. I tend to call ALL people by their names anyway, or when I’m in their presence the ppronoun is “you.” It just doesn’t come up all that often, but in my posts I try to avoid promouns. Whether I’ve always been 100% consistent on that over the 17 or so years I’ve been writing, I have no idea. But that is my policy, and I find it quite satisfactory. You are free to differ.
Many here probably remember the SNL ongoing skit featuring “Chris”, an androgynous character. An interviewer would try to gently probe what Chris’ sex was, but (s)he deftly parried the questions. I thought it was hilarious.
My brother told me that in grammar school there was an androgynous looking English visitor of some kind at the school, and my brother was assigned to show the visitor where the bathroom was. He guessed the wrong sex and the visitor protested with a shocked “No!”
@Wesson:Many here probably remember the SNL ongoing skit featuring “Chris”
It was “Pat” (played by Julia Sweeney). One of the questions often was, is Pat seeing anyone. Pat was seeing Chris, but they broke up. They broke up because Chris was cheating on Pat with Terry…. There was also a move I never saw.
Thanks, Frederick, funny. You remember it better than I do! (I came back here because I just remembered it was “Pat”, not “Chris”.)