Putin isn’t Hitler, but he sure seems to have studied his playbook
Commenter Geoffrey Britain writes to commenter “om” as follows: “Your understanding of Putin is incomplete because you refuse to consider Russia’s view of NATO upon its border as intolerable.”
Actually, though, I think that just about everyone here has “considered” that point of view on the part of Putin. Tyrants often find the actions of others who want to stop them “intolerable.” And tyrants often hide their desires for expansion with excuses and demands designed to sound far more rational and to blame those who are trying to stop them. Those excuses and demands very often include the need to annex lands that they believe are ethnically compatible with their own country.
For example, Hitler viewed the fact that the Sudentenland belonged to Czechoslovakia as intolerable. Hitler also considered Poland’s behavior intolerable and so he just had to take it over later on [my emphasis]:
One of Adolf Hitler’s first major foreign policy initiatives after coming to power in 1933 was to sign a non-aggression pact with Poland in January 1934. This move was unpopular with many Germans who supported Hitler but resented the fact that Poland had received the former German provinces of West Prussia, Poznan (Pozna?), and Upper Silesia after World War I under the Treaty of Versailles. However, Hitler sought the non-aggression pact in order to neutralize the possibility of a French-Polish military alliance against Germany before Germany had a chance to rearm in the aftermath of the Great War…
…[T]he policy of appeasement was closely associated with British prime minister Neville Chamberlain. The objective of this policy was to maintain peace in Europe by making limited concessions to German demands. In Britain, public opinion tended to favor some revision of the territorial and military provisions of the Versailles treaty.
When Hitler finally decided to do something about that intolerable situation in Poland, and when he felt militarily ready (the Allies had allowed Germany to re-arm a couple of years earlier), he invaded (with the help of the USSR, by the way, which sought to reclaim some lands in eastern Poland that had belonged to the Russian Empire and that had been given to Poland right after WWI). I believe he thought that Britain and France and the rest would be too weak to do much to counter him effectively.
When the other Munich participants had agreed to give the Sudetenland up (in order to fix that intolerable situation for Germany), Hitler promised “to resolve all future conflicts peacefully.”
Then in 1939:
Despite Hitler’s promise at Munich and Anglo-French guarantees to defend Czechoslovakia, the Germans dismantled the Czechoslovak state in March 1939. Britain and France responded by guaranteeing the integrity of the Polish state. This did not deter Hitler, who was determined not to be dissuaded from war by either threats or concessions. On April 28, 1939, he announced Germany’s withdrawal from the non-aggression pact signed with Poland just over five years earlier. Hitler went on to negotiate a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union in August 1939. The German-Soviet Pact, which secretly provided for Poland to be partitioned between the two powers, enabled Germany to attack Poland without the fear of Soviet intervention.
On September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland. To justify the action, Nazi propagandists accused Poland of persecuting ethnic Germans living in Poland. They also falsely claimed that Poland was planning, with its allies Great Britain and France, to encircle and dismember Germany. The SS, in collusion with the German military, staged a phony attack on a German radio station. The Germans falsely accused the Poles of this attack. Hitler then used the action to launch a “retaliatory” campaign against Poland.
History doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes. It’s rhyming right now.
When I say it rhymes, I don’t mean that Putin is Hitler. He has a different outlook and different aims. And yet his aims are similar in one respect – to acquire territory whether its inhabitants agree or not. And right now his methods and arguments are being revealed as similar, too. Also like Hitler, he didn’t want to show his hand till he felt ready and till he felt certain that the west would have a weak response.
Putin has shown his hand now – at least partially. I think he’s fully capable of much greater brutality than he has demonstrated in Ukraine so far.
Putin’s indignation is selective. Norway has a long border with Russia, and before that with the USSR. It was a founding NATO member in 1949. For some reason this was never considered “intolerable” by any Russian or Soviet ruler.
You remember the adage, “Old men do not grow wise. They grow careful.” One can wager that this reckless act has been on simmer for a long while. Putin is just shy of 70, has occupied his position for 22 years and has been a consequential figure in Russian politics for 26 years. If you look at the major criminals of the 20th century, their grisly wrongdoing was undertaken during a more compressed time frame and (with the exception of Mao) at a younger age. He’s just getting warmed up. This is very disconcerting.
For some reason this was never considered “intolerable” by any Russian or Soviet ruler.
North of a certain latitude in Scandinavia, the inter-national roadways and the population are sparse. Also, Finland was subjugated by Mother Russia from 1809 to 1917, so it’s ours in perpetuity just as soon as we clear out the Nazis who have had control of it for a century.
Neo, you last statement is very on point. I agree fully.
Right now I am in a discussion with my best friend over what NATO should do. He wants No Fly Zone, and if necessary further actions.
I am not sure this is the proper response. Send in Arms in large quantities yes. Someone recently tried to get Germany to up their Military to meet their NATO commitments. Now, a little late, they have SAID they will, but it will take years to do that.
Can NATO draw a Red Line?
We are in a very dangerous point in all this.
I wish the answer was easy, but it is not.
And finally, NATO is not the cause of what Putin is doing. It is all and only on him.
Art Deco:
I agree that Putin has been planning this for a long long time, perhaps from the beginning of his public life. Hitler waited a long time, too, which people sometimes forget (I can’t avoid certain Hitler analogies because they seem apropos). But as a much younger man during WWI Hitler felt humiliated by Germany’s defeat and the Treaty of Versailles, and he wanted to undo the wrong that had been done to the glorious Fatherland.
Putin feels the same way about 1991 and I think he always has. Until now, he’s been consolidating his power in Russia and also getting his ducks in a row to make his big move.
We are being heavily propagandized by people who do not wish us well. Putin is an odd duck and a tyrant but it helps a bit to understand his view of civilization. This is a short video of a young professor who has written about Alexander Dugin, who is Putin’s philosopher.
There certainly is some similarity between Hitler and Putin. Both arose from a catastrophic event in their country. I don’t think Putin is as twisted in his mind as Hitler was but he has no morals, even if he thinks he does.
Putin feels the same way about 1991 and I think he always has. Until now, he’s been consolidating his power in Russia and also getting his ducks in a row to make his big move.
Putin waited until the US developed its post modern weakness, especially until Trump was over thrown by the 2020 steal. That took away someone who was strong and the way it was done showed how corrupt our ruling class is now.
I am genuinely dumbfounded that people who lived through the Iraq War are again letting themselves be swept away by the same sort of propaganda and manipulation that produced that disaster.
The point with Putin and NATO isn’t whether Putin’s view of the alliance and its expansion are morally, ethically, spiritually, or even intellectually correct. THAT DOESN’T MATTER. It doesn’t matter that he’s evil or expansionist or a tyrant. NONE OF THAT MATTERS.
What matters is that Russia has probably the world’s 2nd most powerful conventional army and thousands of nukes and has been objecting to NATO expansion for over 20 years. Here’s an article from 1995 on the subject.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40396653
As a reminder, the President of Russia in 1995 was Boris Yeltsin.
The issue is not that Vlad Putin is a big old doody-head. The issue is whether the policies of the United States and our NATO allies, policies which should be decided by citizens through the democratic process, have been correct or in error, THAT’S IT. We can’t control Putin. We can’t control Russia. We CAN control ourselves.
If you think the policies of the U.S. and NATO have been correct, just say that. But this isn’t Munich. We haven’t been falling all over ourselves to appease Putin or Russia. While we’ve been kissing China’s ass over Taiwan, we’ve been telling Russia to kiss our ass over NATO expansion. And guess what? Kissing China’s ass has so far allowed Taiwan to continue to exist as a de facto independent nation. How did telling Russia to kiss our ass work out for Ukraine?
Mike
Hitler waited a long time, too, which people sometimes forget
Disagree. Hitler was an inconsequential figure in German public life prior to 1930 and was not involved in politics at all prior to 1919. The lapse of time from his appointment as Chancellor to his suicide was 12 years and 3 months, of which nearly half was taken up with the war and the factory slaughter of the death camps. Any kind of autonomous public life was wrecked in Germany by the Spring of 1933.
What matters is that Russia has probably the world’s 2nd most powerful conventional army and thousands of nukes and has been objecting to NATO expansion for over 20 years. Here’s an article from 1995 on the subject.
That does not matter at all. In any case, the Ukraine is not a member of NATO and Russia has acted assiduously to alienate the Ukraine.
Propaganda that seems to be true.
‘Pictures confirm that the world’s biggest plane has been destroyed by Russia: The Antonov-225 ‘Dream’ lies under wreckage after being blown apart during assault on Ukrainian airfield”
MBunge, again I say that to blame the victim rather than the bully is wrong.
MBunge:
I am surprised that you are analogizing to Iraq.
Do you think people here are agitating for US troops in Ukraine? I don’t see that.
And those things that you think are not the issues are in fact the only important issues. No one here is defending US or NATO’s policies across the board during the last umpteenth years. It’s irrelevant anyway. What’s relevant is to study what Putin thinks and does in order to predict what he will do in the future and what might stop him. That’s it.
He wants the world to obey him and allow him to take on a lot of territory against the will of the people in those territories. This is not some defensive move on his part because of NATO. I have pointed out to you why I think that and so have others, so I won’t waste time doing it again.
I think it is wishful thinking to believe that Putin is appeasable except by total capitulation to his wishes. That is why I make the Hitler analogies. The same was true of Hitler. Europe finally woke up to that. But in the atomic age, it’s much harder to fight what Putin is doing.
we’ve been telling Russia to kiss our ass over NATO expansion.
Again, the salient additions were complete 18 years ago.
Mike K:
Yes, that was one of the ducks that got in line.
Kissing China’s ass has so far allowed Taiwan to continue to exist as a de facto independent nation.
https://alchetron.com/cdn/pugsley-addams-c3bce0b2-5a1d-4fc0-9965-651ccac23d3-resize-750.jpg
Art Deco: “Russia has acted assiduously to alienate the Ukraine.”
No, no, no… the entire point of the war is to ASSIMILATE the Ukraine.
“Kramer: [chuckles] Yeah? The Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It’s a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It’s feeble. I think it’s time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.”
If the writers of Seinfeld in 1995 could see that just think of how rotten the policies of the West have been and for how long.
Gerard Van der Leun:
The comment about alienating Ukraine did not refer to the war. It referred to the last decade or so. Popular support for Russia fell precipitously in Ukraine during that time.
Neo writes: “MBunge:
I am surprised that you are analogizing to Iraq.
Do you think people here are agitating for US troops in Ukraine? I don’t see that.”
In fairness I took his reference upthread to be to the vaster mass of folks in this country and not to the small group huddled here.
Could be wrong. Perhaps Bunge could say.
Well it would seem that the Ukraine has been dangling twixit Scylla and Charybdis for quote some time then.
Bunge brings out the Iraq hobby horse again. He often does.
Bunge is dumbfounded that people don’t agree with him.
But can Bunge control his Caps Loc key. 🙂
Bunge, start a political movement call it the No Antagonizing The Oligarch (NATO) Party. Treaties are ratified by congress, except when they aren’t such as the JPOAC(?) the BHO Iran Nuclear Weapons give away non-treaty treaty. So your political party can scrap the current evil and poppy head NATO. Until then, shout at clouds?
He wants the world to obey him and allow him to take on a lot of territory against the will of the people in those territories.
Just to point out, it’s actually been unusual since 1945 to forcibly seize territory from other countries, above and beyond small border swatches. Working to forcibly liquidate a sovereign state has been most unusual and as far as I can recall been attempted just 3x – Korea (1950-53), South VietNam (1959-75), and Kuwait (1990-91). Putin’s behavior is quite deviant and the justifications he offers (that the Ukraine is not a real country) make sense only to someone in a Russian nationalist bubble.
I should note that the young Soviet Union reconquered all of the peripheral territories of Tsarist Russia bar Finland, the Baltic states, Poland, and Bessarabia. The Baltic states and Bessarabia were conquered during the war and Poland was subjugated during the period running from 1944-47, along with five other east European states. Finland was the odd exception. Mother Russia’s acquisitions are a one-way ratchet.
I am genuinely dumbfounded that people who lived through the Iraq War are again letting themselves be swept away by the same sort of propaganda and manipulation that produced that disaster.
You’re really terrible at analogical reasoning.
“Tyrants often find the actions of others who want to stop them “intolerable.” And tyrants often hide their desires for expansion with excuses and demands designed to sound far more rational and to blame those who are trying to stop them. Those excuses and demands very often include the need to annex lands that they believe are ethnically compatible with their own country.” neo
It is indisputable that Putin is a tyrant and a dictator. Tyrants do indeed often offer excuses for their actions. Annexing lands believed to be ethnically compatible with their own country is certainly an expressed rationale that Putin has repeatedly offered and arguably is currently engaged.
Wherein we differ is in the assertion that, “No one here is defending US or NATO’s policies across the board during the last umpteenth years. It’s irrelevant anyway.”
I think a review of comments made on this blog will reveal plenty of opinions defending US and/or NATO’s policies as entirely justified.
You yourself have emphatically claimed that NATO is a peaceful, defensive alliance. By definition, peaceful defensive alliances, where application is required for consideration of admittance to the alliance… runs counter to the claim that NATO has engaged in a policy of enlargement and encroachment toward Russia’s borders.
Most of all we disagree as to how relevant NATO’s desire to incorporate the Ukraine into its membership is, for Russia.
As I’ve made repeatedly clear, I share the opinion that nothing is more relevant to Russia in Putin’s invasion of the Ukraine than pending* NATO membership for the Ukraine.
*That it is ‘pending’ is evidenced by NATO’s announcement in 2020 that the Ukraine will become a member of NATO.
Yeah, I’m more than a little tired of the “NATO made him do it” argument. At this point it’s pretty obvious what Putin’s true motivations are and have always been regardless of NATO. As for the arguments he’s made over the years, I really don’t care. We’re talking about a guy who blew up apartments and assasinated a guy with polonium (an especially cruel method of murder). What else is there to say?
Geoffrey Britain:
NATO actually IS a “peaceful, defensive alliance.”
But its actions have not always been wise. I do not approve of everything it’s done.
These things are not all or nothing.
At this point, I fail to understand what you are trying to say anymore. Putin’s actions are not an inevitable response to NATO, and they have other causes.
https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2020/10/pdf/pr-2020-104-en.pdf
Ukraine is not mentioned in this communique.
https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/3/pdf/210316-pr-2020-30-en.pdf
Nor this one.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_171584.htm
Nor this one
By Jen logic Vlad’s siezure of Crimea and eastern Ukraine, by proxies, is unacceptable, happened before 2020. But the current attempt to complete that conquest is fully acceptable because Ukraine might join NATO sometime in the undefined future.
Otay.
Mike K:
I discussed Dugin in this post.
Of course there is a difference between being aware of Putin’s motivation and sympathizing with it, a difference that the Democrats will be sure to attempt to obfuscate.
I am developing more sympathy for Trump’s recently pronounced intention to electorally destroy the Democrats – they are incapable of resisting the temptation to act against American interests if they see an opportunity to posture for political advantage.
They literally put party ahead of country – all the country-first Dems are gone and the rest do not even regard the concept as valid! We must drive them out of politics while we have the option to do so non-violently.
different but similar- Hitler had a large portrait of Frederick the Great, Putin has a large bust of Peter the Great. Both are ridiculously reckless and callous. the lessers not the greaters.
I am developing more sympathy for Trump’s recently pronounced intention to electorally destroy the Democrats – they are incapable of resisting the temptation to act against American interests if they see an opportunity to posture for political advantage.
He won’t succeed. The problem with the Democratic Party has been their escalating disrespect for procedural rules and conventions, which reflects the attitudes of the guilds for whom the Democratic Party is an electoral vehicle. Electoral politics is a competitive system. It requires rules and impartial referees. Otherwise, a match decays into gang warfare. The question at hand is what to do to repair the problems we have. There is no indication that their is a younger generation in the Democratic Party willing to repair anything.
Unaddressed but lurking in the background of this thread is the threat presented by Putin vs that of postmodernists. Putin seems far away to me compared to postmodernism, which is close at hand. In this light, Putin is at most a distraction.
Why do the nations so furiously rage together, and why do the people imagine a vain thing?
LIZARD\
Putin is probably the most powerful PRE-modernist / Traditionalist in the world today.
I mean have you seen the Orthodox Cathedral he’s raised up?
United states is nothing but a collective dictatorship that I no longer see having moral superiority over any other despots that we call evil. If you think democracy is better than dictatorship and can’t understand why would anyone prefer to live under dictatorship over democracy, ask any democrat voters if they prefer to live in an America where the democrats are forever in power and make necessary rules changes to make sure someone like trump or even republicans will never have power again 90% of them would say yes, how many of them supported the so called election reform that tried to accomplish just that? If putin putting a puppet in charge of Ukraine is evil, why America and nato putting a puppet of their in charge is good? If invading and bombing another country when claiming you being threatened is bad, how many times have we done that? how many Muslims have we killed just bc some loser called bin laden killed some Americans, how many more innocent Muslims have we killed in the name of avenging the death of fellow Americans, far greater than 2000 I suppose. If putin imprisoning his opponents is bad, what are we doing to people like Assange or the jan 6th rioters?Every supposedly evil political arms putin have in his disposal in the name of national security America has the equivalent (Kgb = cia/fbi, nato = Warsaw ) somehow when we persecuted our dissents it’s righteous but when putin does it it’s evil beyond words. Putin is bad man but when you compare his actions with everything we have done with no we are good he is bad biases you will find striking similarities
Frederick Kagan of the American Enterprise Institute has a PhD in Russian and Soviet military history & taught at West Point; he was interviewed by Jordan Peterson 4 days ago & the video is posted on Youtube. In the video, he said that he & his colleagues predicted that Russia would not invade Ukraine –– it surprised him.
A few days before the invasion, Kamala Harris made a hash of things at the Munich Security Conference with her inappropriate remarks about NATO & Ukraine. I wonder if her blundering was the last straw that pushed Putin over the line, for many commenters have said that the invasion even caught the Russian commanders & troops by surprise, because they didn’t think they were there except to intimidate Ukraine into conceding on NATO.
Wouldn’t that be just like this administration to screw it all up?
Banned Lizard on March 4, 2022 at 7:44 pm said:
“Unaddressed but lurking in the background of this thread is the threat presented by Putin vs that of postmodernists. Putin seems far away to me compared to postmodernism, which is close at hand. In this light, Putin is at most a distraction.”
Sure. Biden is a bigger threat to America than China is. And China is a greater threat than Russia.
But they are interlaced. For one thing, China and Russia understand our domestic threat and leverage it. And they, mostly China, carry great influence with the current administration.
In America democrats can bully anyone by branding them nazi, guess what putin learned that from democrats and tried to legitimate his invasion of Ukraine by calling Ukraine the nazi, lol
MBunge on March 4, 2022 at 6:20 pm said:
“I am genuinely dumbfounded that people who lived through the Iraq War are again letting themselves be swept away by the same sort of propaganda and manipulation that produced that disaster.”
Russia is actually invading Ukraine.
Here’s a view of Putin’s Orthodox Cathedral from two years back:
[ From July / 2020] God and history in Russia grows stronger while America allows God and history to be erased
United states is nothing but a collective dictatorship that I no longer see having moral
You ought to wait until you’re sober to post, use conventional punctuation, and make use of paragraphs to organize your thoughts.
Think about why Ukraine wanted to join NATO. They were afraid of Russian aggression. Afraid Russia might invade. No matter what you think of the US motives for Ukraine in NATO, do you have any doubt now about why Ukraine was so desperate to join NATO?
If you think in North Korea the leadership being passed down in the same family is bad, then why you are okay with Trudeau inheriting his father’s leadership and political influence to be the prime minister is fine? Technically of course there are fundamentally differences because Canadians have their say in rather to accept this nepotism and North Koreans don’t but the point is if given choices there are people willing to vote for hereditary dictatorship being forever ruled by the same family generation after generation just the same, how many democrats voted for Hillary and republicans wanted to put the bush family in charge of America forever, did you say that people truly prefer democracy over monarchy?
In Slovakia, the “Munich Betrayal” of ’38 is remembered and is not merely appeasement. Britain and France signed treaties that they then failed to uphold.
In 1994 the USA, and Russia and Ukraine signed the Budapest Memorandum.
Wiki says:
“After the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014, Canada,[14] France, Germany, Italy, Japan,[15] the UK,[16] and US[17][18] stated that Russian involvement was a breach of its Budapest Memorandum obligations to Ukraine which had been transmitted to the United Nations under the signature of Sergey Lavrov and others,[19] and in violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.”
It continues with Putin disagreeing, saying a new state has arisen.
Putin is the bad guy, the invader. The difference between Hitler and Stalin (tho both invaded Poland).
Because Putin has long claimed that Ukraine in NATO is unacceptable, it should not be a surprise that he is showing his non-acceptance by war, and by aggression. It should not be a surprise, but his aggression should not be acceptable. It should be violently opposed.
Does Ukraine exist as a sovereign country, able to decide for itself whether to join NATO or not? Or is it subject to Russian veto?
Had Zelensky run away, and the Ukraine army failed/ surrendered early, with Putin winning quickly, the de facto answer would have been that yes, Russia has a veto. Because Ukraine is fighting, they are fighting against the Russian invasion, and against that veto.
We could be doing more, and should be, to support the Ukrainians fighting against the invaders. Afghanistan was a distraction – and Biden’s bungling the withdrawal, that Trump and most of America wanted, showed how incompetent the US military could be. The US had no agreement with Afghanistan to stop the Taliban, nor do nation building; no had it an agreement to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, but it was good for the US to stop that invasion.
Stopping invasions is the single most important world vigilante/ semi-police action that has mostly supported the post WW II Pax Americana that has been so beneficial to humanity.
Biden’s bungling on Keystone and the buying of Russian oil – giving Putin cash for oil; is also cash for weapons (and low cost ham radios from China that can be listened to by Ukrainian ham operators?). Another mistake – weakness – invitation to attack.
Biden’s acceptance and support of Nord Stream 2 – more cash for Putin; another weakness.
Germany’s failure to fulfill its 2% NATO obligation – more weakness.
Germany’s addiction to cheap Russian oil & gas – more weakness.
Germany’s ending of nuclear power – more and very stupid weakness.
Obama’s NOT giving Ukraine weapons after Putin attacks in 2014 – weakness.
Lots of non-threatening NATO/ US/ West actions, weaknesses but not threats.
Putin’s not getting any younger, and possibly getting sicker quickly. Had the invasion gone well, he would have won quickly, a big step for Greater Russia, and his Russian legacy.
Is he going to blow up the Ukraine nuclear plant? who knows.
We must fight – as Churchill said.
I hope more Slovaks and Europeans and Americans come join a real Ukraine Foreign Legion to fight against the invasion.
Beating Putin, now, will mean a lower risk of invasion of Taiwan or other countries. Losing means a higher risk.
Art Deco on March 4, 2022 at 6:44 pm said:
I am genuinely dumbfounded that people who lived through the Iraq War are again letting themselves be swept away by the same sort of propaganda and manipulation that produced that disaster.
You’re really terrible at analogical reasoning.
I think it is a reasonable analogy. I supported the Iraq War early on but quickly decided the nation building was futile. I thought Bush should leave after thrashing the bad guys. I didn’t care who wound up ruling what was left.
I felt the same way about Afghanistan. At least Iraq had a middle class (I knew some of them) but they had all left. Afghanistan had never had a middle class. The King was referred to as “The KIng of Kabul.”
we clear out the Nazis who have had control of it for a century.
Finland got rid of the Nazis at the end of 1944 as part of an agreement with the USSR.
Putin should have learned from bush and claimed Ukraine has wmd
By the way, anyone who wonders why I care about this stuff…THIS is why:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-americans-broadly-support-ukraine-no-fly-zone-russia-oil-ban-poll-2022-03-04/?taid=622279289fa2ce00010f85ca&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
That’s a link to a Reuters story about a new poll that claims 74% want the U.S. and NATO to impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine.
A no-fly zone is pretty universally considered an act of war and would mean U.S. and NATO fighters engaging and shooting down Russian aircraft over Ukraine. How many of that 74% understand what they’re actually supporting? Want to bet on whether the poll accurately described what a no-fly zone over Ukraine would mean before it asked the question?
Mike
Art Deco,
I would add the Communist occupation/annexation of Tibet to that list.
So neo – what should be done? If the guy is kind of like Hitler, and is capable of much greater brutality than what he has shown here, don’t we need to stop him? How?
but quickly decided the nation building was futile.
One of the things I liked about Kennan was that he thought that nation building was untenable, that British style democracy was mostly a cultural thing limited to the Northern part of Europe. He wasn’t a proselyte for a way of life.
A no-fly zone is pretty universally considered an act of war
I’ve been surprised how universally foolish young people are about war. I suppose I shouldn’t be, but there you are.
neo,
“Geoffrey Britain:
“NATO actually IS a “peaceful, defensive alliance.”
But its actions have not always been wise. I do not approve of everything it’s done.”
NATO making war, however justified in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria has greatly added to Russian’s perception that NATO is not a “peaceful, defensive alliance.” Again, when it comes to Russia’s motivations in invading the Ukraine what matters is Russia’s perception of NATO and the West.
“These things are not all or nothing.”
Agreed and might I point out that I have repeatedly acknowledged the beliefs and motivations you ascribe to Putin. Whereas you have yet to admit that the national security risk to Russia that would be imposed by having NATO on the Ukraine/Russia border has any validity.
“At this point, I fail to understand what you are trying to say anymore.”
I apologize. I don’t know how to make myself any clearer, which I have gone to great lengths to ensure. Apparently to no avail.
“Putin’s actions are not an inevitable response to NATO, and they have other causes.”
I’ve agreed that there are other causes. I’ve just been insisting that the primary motivation for Putin in invading the Ukraine is the same position that both Gorbachev and Yeltsin shared. Ukraine + NATO = Nyet!
I’ve insisted upon it because regardless of whatever other motivations Putin may have, a clear matter of the most serious national security, supersede all others for nation states.
I can understand you discounting it as primary in Putin’s case. I cannot understand you dismissing it as “irrelevant”.
This holds true for dictators and tyrants as much as it does for democracies. Indeed, perhaps even more so because in a democracy gaining consensus about a threat (Iran, China) is often like trying to herd cats. Whereas, no one is more sensitive to serious external threats than a dictator. They know they walk upon a very narrow beam.
NATO making war, however justified in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria
These were co-operative ventures, but which of them were actually conducted under the auspices of NATO?
Finland got rid of the Nazis
Guess I should decorate my posts with emojis.
Bauxite:
That’s a question I ask myself daily. I don’t think there is a way we can stop him without triggering him into far worse: nuclear weapons, perhaps even on a large scale. It depends whether he is rational or not and whether he wants to take everyone down with him or not (I don’t know the answer). In terms of prevention, I think the only people who can stop him are his inner circle. I have no idea whether the prospect interests them, or whether they are fully on board with his plans.
One of the things I liked about Kennan was that he thought that nation building was untenable, that British style democracy was mostly a cultural thing limited to the Northern part of Europe.
If he actually thought that, he was wrong.
Comparing Putin to Hitler just isn’t a very good fit. Far better to make the Putin comparison to Mussolini and his bumbling armed forces.
I would add the Communist occupation/annexation of Tibet to that list.
I think Tibet and Sinkiang have been notionally a part of China for generations, just too remote to feel the central government’s authority. That changed around 1958.
Dave:
I’m not sure what your comment had to do with the topic, but I’ll respond anyway.
There are really two different issues you’re discussing. The first is the process by which a leader is chosen (a hereditary monarchy versus a democracy or republic ) and the second is who is chosen and why. For example, I detest Trudeau but I have no quarrel with the process by which he was chosen. It’s just human nature that people whose families were in politics earlier already have name recognition when they enter politics. This is often an advantage, but not always. It’s an old story, too – John Adams and John Quincy Adams, for example.
John Oh:
I think it’s crystal clear that that was the reason Ukraine was so eager to join NATO.
Banned Lizard:
I think there’s an important point that you have left unaddressed. That is that Putin may blow us all to kingdom come before the postmodernists will have a chance to get their boots on.
That would be quite a “distraction,” wouldn’t it?
It comes down to how apocalyptic Putin feels when thwarted, and whether his generals are feeling apocalyptic too.
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MBunge > “I am genuinely dumbfounded that people who lived through the Iraq War are again letting themselves be swept away by the same sort of propaganda and manipulation that produced that disaster.”
Art Deco > “You’re really terrible at analogical reasoning.”
Mike K > “I think it is a reasonable analogy.”
So does Steven Hayward.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/03/putin-and-the-american-right.php
The point is not who is invading whom (sorry, Don), or even why, but being cautious about blindly accepting what the ruling elites of the West are doing to persuade the populace to back their responses.
IOW, skepticism about the actual goals of the Deep State is always warranted.
Now, sometimes we might agree with the actions being pushed, but we need to look around and consider some alternative possibilities for their decisions, instead of jumping on the bandwagon just because it’s going by.
MBunge > “How many of that 74% understand what they’re actually supporting? Want to bet on whether the poll accurately described what a no-fly zone over Ukraine would mean before it asked the question?”
At this point, considering some of our esteemed denizens of DC, I wonder how many of them understand what they are supporting.
https://spectatorworld.com/topic/lindsey-graham-unites-world-putin-assassination/
As Frederick said a few days ago: I know that Russia invaded Ukraine, and the Ukrainians are fighting back, and that’s about as far as I’m willing to go.
Those are the known knowns.
Putin’s motivation is a known unknown (no one except Vlad knows what inspired him to push the GO button this time), but what are the unknown unknowns?
“There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.” Donald Rumsfeld
It might be a good idea to find out what the POV of the IC’s leadership, as well as the FP’s, really is – and what involvement our spooks from the CIA etc. have in the narrative and the kinetic action.
We certainly no longer have any reason to trust them.
PS Heyward links a video about Alexander Dugin as a partial explanation of Putin’s mindset.
Sooo – checking online to get the Rumsfeld quote verbatim, I discovered that I am not the only person to glom onto that pearl of practical wisdom.
No transcript, and I don’t know what the tilt of the experts is other than almost certainly Left (no idea of their degree of inclination, but certainly past 45 degrees off vertical).
https://warontherocks.com/2022/03/known-knowns-and-known-unknowns-in-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/
Behind a paywall, but my point was that the quote is being riffed on in several places.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fcommentary%2Fthe-known-unknowns-of-putins-bloody-gamble%2Fnews-story%2F2d6be16e2348a590176bf01193f682f7&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-cold-test-noscore&V21spcbehaviour=append
DNW – this is for the Philosopher’s Circle.
https://medium.com/the-philosophers-stone/rumsfelds-logic-of-known-knowns-known-unknowns-and-unknown-unknowns-f506db31ac74
The fourth branch, not mentioned by Rumsfeld, could also be fruitfully explored, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns
Žižek goes to Iraq for an example (not surprisingly), but I think a lot of people on all levels in all countries are dodging around some things that they know, but don’t want to talk about. May even be different things for different people.
Magnus > “[Frederick Kagan] said that he & his colleagues predicted that Russia would not invade Ukraine –– it surprised him.”
I hope that Kagan and his colleagues are exploring all four branches of Rumsfeld’s Maxim, and that we will learn the results sometime — sooner, rather than later.
Paralysis by over analysis is thing too.
Funny that some who make grand assertions about Vlad’s motivations, fears, and justifications don’t know anything more about Vlad than those who hold opposing viewpoints,
It is one thing that is known for sure; Vlad’s present actions and Vlad,s past actions, It is profoundly foolish to ignore knowns and obsess about unknown unknowns,
Funny that those Swiss bankers who are profoundly sensitive to risk have made a decision regarding Vlad.
Funny that the Germans notorious for underfunding NATO for more than 20 years have decided to turn their policy 180 degrees, Unfortunately the German Army is a paper mache tiger, can’t even transport the few tanks that are runners.
“Germany Rearms 2022: Assessment & Historical Context”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDUElJY4xNQ
Even the Germans seem to recognize that Vlad’s behavior is a serious threat.
But NATO! But WEF/Dravos! But the Deep State! Who is paranoid now?
As that debunked Sigmund Freud said “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” Sometimes a despot’s actions are dangerous and intolerable no matter what his rationalizations are or what his apologists say.
An opinion by Scott Hounsel in support of a more robust defense of Ukraine.
https://redstate.com/scotthounsell/2022/03/04/opinion-the-united-states-has-a-contractual-responsibility-to-defend-ukraine-and-is-no-better-than-russia-by-failing-to-do-so-n531710
@ om > “Sometimes a despot’s actions are dangerous and intolerable no matter what his rationalizations are or what his apologists say.’
True, but countering his actions effectively is aided by knowing what his reasons (not rationalizations) really are.
An opinion by streiff on why a no-fly zone is a bad idea.
https://redstate.com/streiff/2022/03/04/nato-says-nyet-to-president-zelenskys-plea-for-a-nato-no-fly-zone-n531814
Neo: “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes. It’s rhyming right now.”
So totally agree! I had tried to post a comment about this history repeating itself a la Hitler and Putin in your “NATO is at Fault” article; but, I must have done something wrong as it seems I deleted it or something instead of saving it (Ha! that will teach em to try to edit it too many times).
Anyway, I won’t bother trying to repeat what others have said; but, I will add that one of those “getting all your ducks in a row” is Biden. I’d call Biden a modern day Chamberlain except Chamberlain knew that he was just buying time. Biden, on the other hand, seems to really believe that he is the greatest statesman of all time!
Sleepy ol’ Joe having botch the withdraw from central Asia has demonstrated to Putin and other nasty world players that the USA and its allies might just be paper tigers.
That could be one of the reasons for Putin to invade now. He isn’t expecting much push back from the West. And, really, considering other things that the Russians have done to the West under Putin and we didn’t do much either one shouldn’t expect the West to do much different now. Sad, but that is the way I see it.
Further, what does scare me is not only Putin’s threat about nuclear weapons but also the fact that despite all the talking heads saying that the Russians are “falling behind” or “meeting more resistance than they expect” I do not believe them.
Looking at Russian (not just Soviet) history there is a “tradition” of using humans, especially the lowly peasant conscripts, as cannon fodder. Russia had almost as many dead as the Germans in WWI and nearly double the number of dead during WWII as the Germans. Russian leaders have little to no regard for human life. Some talking heads (although they are a minority) talk about Russia putting its worst troops first. From their perspective this makes sense. Use the weaker troops to test the enemy’s defense, wear down the enemy, then hit the enemy with your best.
So, perhaps, the worst is yet to come.
And, nothing happens in a vacuum, other nasty players, such as Iran, North Korea, and the PRC are watching with keen interest to see what they could get away with too.
The people taking the poll MBunge mentioned appear to be the smart ones.
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/03/04/we-have-a-winner-actress-patricia-arquette-scores-the-dumbest-tweet-of-the-week-screenshot/
Gen. Douglas MacArthur was quoted saying something like “Russians are not Westerners, they are Orientals.”
I am sure a righteous democracy like america would be perfect fine and good sport about it if a scenario ever arise that Russian/Chinese propaganda has successfully convinced majority of Californians to demand to secede from america, join forces with russia china and iran and have a military base of Russia built in the site of silicon valley pointing missiles at what is left of america, right? I am very sure America will not take military action to neutralize this threat and just honor californians’ wish in this factional scenario peacefully.
only despots would take military actions invading countries that poses as security threat, right?
to punish Putin for influencing Ukraine’s election to install his own puppet america will influence Ukraine’s election and install america’s own puppet, so biden family can get a cut of Putin’s oil too.
Dave feels Vlad is being picked on. Bless Dave’s heart.
California leaving and becoming Cuba II, might be a contentious subject in America, Dave. America already had one Civil War about secession of states, in which 600,000 Americans died, Dave. But after that temporary unpleasantness, we returned to being “good sports.” Many in the US already are ready for Silicon Valley, San Francisco, and Los Angeles to leave by whatever means. So it is very interesting conjecture. Keep us posted on your next brainstorm.
are you sure? they wouldn’t let Trump be the president and you think they would let Florida leave? you think your government would not persecute their political opponents like Putin would, look at assange or the jan 6th rioters. how many muslims have george w killed? more or less than putin did in ukraine?
does Putin have more blood on his hands than Hillary Clinton? Putin is a very very evil man, but the point is america since without the check and balance of an equal opponent after the fall of soviet unions had turned pretty evil itself in the years it became dominate since early 90s, maybe having a rival is not such a bad idea to put america back on the right path.
Otay Dave. Have a good evening, It’s past my bedtime.
I don’t think Vlad is being picked on, but you thought America was being picked on when you supported the invasion of iraq and the killing of millions in the name of fighting terrorism preemptively.
if you think Vlad is such a crazy nuke wielding mad man than take him out immediately and decisively instead of poking the bear with this monkey business of setting up a puppet regime at his front door as some sort of joke of a containment.
Xi thanks you Z. Good night.
Being former KGB, I suspect brutality comes easily to Mr. Putin. His first option.
There are a number of differences between Putin and Hitler:
– The trajectory of Hitler’s power was upward. Germany was a great power and an economic dynamo that had been crushed by the Treaty of Versailles. The longer that the rest of Europe ignored Hitler, allowed him to rearm, and allowed him to seize his neighbors without resistance, the stronger he and Germany became. Russia is arguably in the opposite situation. Putin has had nukes since the beginning. Russia’s economy is a mess and (I believe) its population is actually falling. Russia is likely to be weaker in the future regardless of the outcome in Ukraine and whatever other former Soviet republics Putin tries to take.
– Putin’s ideological goals are not as destructive as Hitler’s. Hitler wanted to punish western Europe for Germany’s humiliation in the Great War and at Versailles. Putin is trying to restore Russia’s lost honor from the breakup of the USSR. While Hitler’s goals led directly to the conquest of much of western Europe, there is no indication that Russian tanks are going to go any farther than the borders of the old USSR (and probably not even that far because the Baltics are now NATO members and there’s no reason to believe, at this point, that Putin is mad enough to deliberately launch a war with NATO. Turning Russian into a radioactive wasteland would not accomplish his goals.)
– Putin is not a genocidal maniac. He’s a brutal, amoral thug, no doubt, but he’s not trying to wipe any race or ethincity off the planet. His goals are more conventional, although he is clearly willing to use whatever means are necessary to achieve them.
I said this in a previous comment, but this is not 1938, it is 1914. The primary danger here is not that we will fail to stop Putin before he becomes unstoppable. The primary danger is that we will miscalculate and trigger a terrible world war that no one really wants.
Love the Fourth Unknown. What you know but refuse to know you know. Explains a lot.
Russia is arguably in the opposite situation. Putin has had nukes since the beginning. Russia’s economy is a mess and (I believe) its population is actually falling. Russia is likely to be weaker in the future regardless of the outcome in Ukraine and whatever other former Soviet republics Putin tries to take.
Russia’s economy has been quite dynamic the last 20-odd years and Russia is as affluent vis-a-vis the west as it has ever been. Russia’s total fertility rate is as we speak at the European mean. Unlike the rest of Europe, Russia has seen great improvement in that metric over the last 20 years. Note, Russia’s level of public sector debt, public sector borrowing, external debt, and balance of payments are better than the European norm. The employment-to-population ratio is at worst mildly under par. They’re well under par in re price stability, but the U.S. has now sunk to their level and then some.
– Putin’s ideological goals are not as destructive as Hitler’s. Hitler wanted to punish western Europe for Germany’s humiliation in the Great War and at Versailles. Putin is trying to restore Russia’s lost honor from the breakup of the USSR. While Hitler’s goals led directly to the conquest of much of western Europe, there is no indication that Russian tanks are going to go any farther than the borders of the old USSR (and probably not even that far because the Baltics are now NATO members and there’s no reason to believe, at this point, that Putin is mad enough to deliberately launch a war with NATO. Turning Russian into a radioactive wasteland would not accomplish his goals.)
If I’m not mistaken, Hitler’s ultimate goal was to conquer the Ukraine and populate much of what was then Poland, White Russia, and the Ukraine with German colonists, slaughtering and expelling the Slav population therein. The rest of Europe would consist of allies, vassal states, and protectorates.
No clue under the circumstances why you fancy you know Putin’s goals. Mr. mkent offers a much more plausible model for what Russia’s objects are at this time, and it isn’t pretty.
Putin and Hitler do differ. Putin has given no indication of taking an interest in slaughtering people as a social goal. Putin has had a conventional domestic life, had a lengthy employment history ‘ere getting involved in politics, and isn’t a physical wreck. (There is concern that Putin is deranged from old age or from a wretched excess of deference over the last 20-odd years).
was being picked on when you supported the invasion of iraq and the killing of millions in the name of fighting terrorism preemptively.
That’s cute. The Iraq Body Count estimates about 210,000 civilian deaths over a period of 19 years. I believe that in their date 15% of the deaths are attributable to coalition forces and another increment to Iraqi state forces, with a comfortable majority attributable to ISIS or other insurgent groups.
Yesterday I posted several Ukraine-related links, including an essay by someone who met Putin back when East Germany was still a thing:
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/67323.html
Since Europe and the USA refuse to do any more than send weapons, Ukraine will probably fall under Russian rule before the end of March. Many in the west will bemoan that development, but Putin’s nuclear blackmail has successfully deterred us. Isn’t that what nuclear weapons are for?’
But what happens when Putin decides to take back the Baltic states? Even though they are NATO members, Putin will still have his nuclear weapons to threaten us with, and he has learned how to use them to very good advantage.
Except for the fact that his military has taken a lot of casualties invading Ukraine, there’s not much reason for him to take a long time pondering this next move before testing NATO’s resolve. And if he can tempt China to go after Taiwan at the same time, we’ll be pretty well tied up by then.
I cannot pretend to analyze Putin. His paranoia may be genuine; but the manifestation is ironic.
NATO was a dying “alliance”. I put the word alliance in quotes deliberately. It was a threat to no one. Now, Putin has reactivated its own alarms; at least temporarily. He has also activated the alarms of non-NATO members within his reach; e.g. Finland and Sweden.
As Putin was rattling his little sabres I stated that Ukraine was not worth our military intervention. I was wrong. I misread Putin and I misread the Ukrainian people.
When Putin’s threats became believable we should have deployed the 82nd Airborne, the First Marine Division, and the 2nd Armored to Poland, or Ukraine, for joint exercises–depending on just how belligerent we wanted to be–and told Putin to take a deep breath and think carefully. When Putin put his nuclear force on high alert we should have gone to DEFCON1. People scoff at the aged concept of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD), but it worked during some very dangerous times.
By the way, Ukraine has once again exposed Russian military might to be a hollowed out “Bear”. As always, they can bully the little guys, if the big guys stand aside and let them. History glosses over the facts, for instance, that the huge Soviet Union could never have defeated Germany without Hitler’s terrible miscalculations, the Russian winter, massive U.S. aid, and the Western Front. Then, they gobbled up war devastated Eastern Europe because the war weary U.S. and UK stood aside for too long.
I urge everyone to read or re-read Tom Grey’s March 4, 2022 at 8:27 pm comment. I think it is the most instructive of all the comments in this thread. (Note, I wrote “most,” not “only.”)
Ira M. Siegel:
I agree, it is even better on a second reading. Tom got it right.
To update the Who:
Meet the new Russia
Same as the old Russia
Don’t get fooled again.
For all those constantly throwing Iraq around as this great blunder: You’re saying we, the world, the region would be better off with Saddam (or his as brutal but stupider sons) in power, with the region’s best army, on the border of one of the world’s significant oil sources and feeling even more untouchable after 40 years of getting away with it? Really?
For all those constantly throwing Iraq around as this great blunder:
In response to the observation that you only experience the downside of the option you actually choose, one of those here fixated on the Iraq war pronounced the observer ‘deranged’.
throwing Iraq around as this great blunder
Yes. The first Iraq war started with Bush, was sustained under Clinton, and ended with Bush, where Hussein was brought to justice before the People. The second Iraq war started with Obama, then progressed under the Spring series from Tripoli to Kiev, where Gaddafi, for one, several Americans, too, were brought to social justice through sodomy and abortion in darkness.
“For all those constantly throwing Iraq around as this great blunder: You’re saying we, the world, the region would be better off with Saddam (or his as brutal but stupider sons) in power…”
you can say the same about ukraine, the world and the region would be better off if vice president joe biden could have let Ukraine alone let it serves as the proper buffer state being neutral balancing the power between the west and east instead of weaponizing it against putin (or for other personal selfish reasons who knows). this is the problem with america, we can always move the goal posts to justify our wars against others while demonize putin every military actions even the motivations are often identical from the perspective of the respective aggressors. many regions were stable until americans meddling in regional politics in the name of defeating dictators and spreading democracy, guess what, americans tolerate and very often install lots of pro american dictators in North and South america as long as it keeps america’s backyard stabilized, but when Russia do something to keep their front door stabilized it is evil.
every conflict america is involved in energy is always involved guess its just a coincidence
Yes the oil fields in Afghanistan were a thing and who can forget the oil fields in Serbia,
Later, Dave.
Bauxite:
We only know about Hitler’s goals retrospectively. All we knew at the outset was that he wanted to reclaim a few places where Germans lived under the aegis of other countries, very similar to what Putin’s saying now only Putin says it about Russians. We knew Hitler didn’t like Jews, but the scope of the Holocaust was secret, nor had Hitler shown any propensity for coldblooded mass murder in his many years in power in Germany.
We have no idea what Putin is capable of, but most people didn’t think he was capable of what he’s already doing NOW.
So your comment makes very little sense.
Getting the feeling Dave’s native language is Russian.
Someone pointed out that NATO was dying, and the Ukraine invasion has reinfused it. That’s correct, but Putin wants to gobble up Ukraine, so he simply took advantage of the combo of weak Joe Biden + weak NATO.
Putin is smart and knows what is going on in the world. He knew NATO was falling apart and no threat. That’s why he acted.
Neo,
Hitler’s goals changed during the war.
For example, he got involved in North Africa and Greece to bail out Italy, which was getting its ass kicked.
His uboat campaign was initially restrained because he wanted peace with the UK.
The same will happen with Putin and Russia. None of these things tend to go as planned.
Update from my Ukrainian penpal. I’ve been trying to send her accurate information about the likelihood of help from the West and the danger she’s in, while also encouraging her:
“Dear Wendy!
“Tonight we decided that we had no right to risk our daughter’s life and decided to take her to Poland to our son. I will also try to cross the border so as not to leave her alone, she is only 14 years old and she is very scared. The husband cannot leave, we have introduced martial law and men are forbidden to leave Ukraine.
“Huge traffic jams everywhere, thousands of cars with children and women trying to get to the border, we drove all day, but only covered 250 kilometers. Tanks 200 km away from us, but I didn’t hear shots today.
“I don’t want to leave my husband and I’m very worried about him.
“[O]ur son … is doing well so far, we paid for education for a year and housing, so we have a place to live with him.
“4 more women and 7 children are traveling with us (men go only to the border). We all drive in silence, because everyone is in shock and everyone is scared.
“The last NATO summit took place as you said ….. we talked all day …. ‘tried very hard’ and made a decision ………. to provide Ukraine with fuel ….. no words.
“Everything goes exactly according to the script of the article you sent.
“I ask your forgiveness a thousand times for writing you all these sad things????????? but I can’t think of anything else.” –And her most recent message is that she expects Russia to tear Ukraine to pieces in the next 7-10 days.
I recall lefties desperately trying to find oil in the Horn of Africa in order to discredit US efforts in Somalia. Richard
Don:
Certain military tactical goals of Hitler’s may have changed, short-term or even long-term. But you have zero idea what his overarching goals were and how they may have changed. Not just you – no one knows.
I think it highly likely that he wanted to conquer as much land as possible, kill and enslave a lot of the people there and install the “master race” of Germans to spread their superior seed around the world (at the very least, the European world) and get rid of all Jews into the bargain. Those are the goals I’m talking about.
And I’m talking about Putin’s long-term goals as well as shorter-term tactics.
Oh, and for quite a few years at the beginning of the war Hitler accomplished what he wanted and kept winning and winning. That represented a tremendous amount of human suffering. It was only later that the tide began to turn.
I think there is plenty of evidence that Hitler’s goals were largely to create a greater German state unifying all Germans (which would include expanding eastward for more land), the defeat of the USSR and destruction of the Jews, and peace with the UK and America.
I doubt he ever had any type of vision of anything like world conquest. And his capabilities were no where near that, obviously.
It seems to me Putin’s actions are similar to Hitler’s; ethnic pride driving the desire for an expanded nation, undoing past humiliation, but limited goals. But reality has a way of changing goals.
Don:
There was/is a Dave who’s first language is Chinese and is an US imigrant IIRC.
This Dave doesn’t appear to be a native English speaker either and doesn’t, IMO, seem to be the same person. But could be the same guy whose views have changed in the last few years? “New” Dave seems scripted IMO.
Wendy – Thanks for passing on the update from your Ukrainian penpal. It helps to have first-hand accounts of what’s actually happening in country, if for no other reason than to remember that there are real people involved and not just dots on a screen. If you would, please give us an update on her status when she gets settled in across the border. Best wishes to her.
Oh, and for quite a few years at the beginning of the war Hitler accomplished what he wanted and kept winning and winning.
The war began in September 1939. From November 1942 to May 1945 it was all downhill for Germany. Japan’s retreat began in June, 1942. Germany’s advance in the west had been halted by November 1940; along about half the eastern front, Germany had no advances past the fall of 1941.
Wendy’s friends story is very consonant with this reporter’s experience – except she doesn’t have his BBC Press pass to get past the checkpoints.
Still, it’s a good post.
https://spectatorworld.com/topic/escape-from-kyiv-nick-robinson/
Art Deco:
Yes, that’s what I meant. Hitler was doing well for a few years and then the tide turned.
Japan went to war Dec 1941 and things were going downhill for her in June of 1942–not much more than 6 months. Attacking the US was a huge miscalculation.
Shattered Sword is an excellent book on the battle of Midway.
neo, I think ADs point is that Hitler was successful for only about 1-2 years after the date WWII started in Europe, Sept. 1939 and it is a reasonable one. You may be conflating Hitler’s prior successes (Rhineland, Anschluss, Munich) with the beginning of the war. Though those early WWII successes were huge, conquering most of Europe.
FOAF:
No, I’m not thinking that. Historians disagree on what the turning point was. I have read analyses of the war that say the turning point from German victories to the beginning of German defeat was the siege of Stalingrad, which ended in 1943. Others say differently and earlier, but Stalingrad is a common answer. So it’s “several years” from the beginning in 1939 – the invasion of Poland. Sort of a wishy-washy way to put it, but it’s not an exact moment that everyone agrees on.
The point I was attempting to make was not an exact number of years, but that for a long time it looked very dark for the Allies – and even seemed hopeless because the Germans had pretty much conquered Europe. And then it changed, and by a certain point (and historians disagree on that exact point) it looked hopeless for the Germans.
Wikipedia (yes I know) has a timeline of WWII events during 1942, a crucial year. Basically day-by-day headline summaries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_World_War_II_(1942)
Germany had some advances in 1942; Rommel reached Egypt and they drove on Stalingrad but by the end of the year they had been beaten back, the final summary is
“As the year draws to a close, things look much brighter for the Allies than they did a few months ago: Rommel is trapped in Tunisia, the Germans are encircled at Stalingrad, and the Japanese appear ready to abandon Guadalcanal.”
So turning point maybe mid-late 1942, just about bisecting the 6-year war. I would say though that the image of German “invincibility” ended earlier though when they failed to capture Moscow.
Neo,
“Putin is incomplete because you refuse to consider Russia’s view of NATO upon its border as intolerable.”
Is this applicable to another place in ME?
Israeli Leaders view of her neighbours upon its border intolerable, in same time the neighbours hold same view against Israel.
DF:
No.
It’s not Israel who finds the other countries near it intolerable. It’s they who don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist. That began with the partition of the British protectorate of Palestine – a former colony – into Israel and an Arab state. This was done by the UN.
Israel accepted the partition and its neighbors. The Arab states refused to accept Israel and declared war on it, and lost that war and subsequent wars. It’s the Palestinians who erase the map of Israel and want to take it over.
Literally a minute after I read this post…
https://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-military-action-will-stop-immediately-if-ukraine-agrees-to-four-conditions-121826715.html
Pesko said Ukraine must:
cease military action
change its constitution to enshrine neutrality
acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory and,
recognise the separatist republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent territories.
Peskov said that, if those conditions are met, Russia’s military action will halt “in a moment”.
He added: “They should make amendments to the constitution according to which Ukraine would reject any aims to enter any bloc. This is possible only by making changes to the constitution.”
He also insisted Russia was not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine.
Israeli Leaders view of her neighbours upon its border intolerable, in same time the neighbours hold same view against Israel.
Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt in 1979 and with Jordan in 1994. Israel also concluded a non-belligerency pact with the Lebanese government in 1983, though it was a dead letter in short order. Syria’s never been willing to negotiate anything more elaborate than a temporary truce with Israel. Between 1949 and the present day, Israel has annexed the Golan Heights (700 sq miles) and part of greater Jerusalem (about 50 sq miles). The majority of the settler population on the West Bank lives in one of six settlements which between them have a land area of 32.4 sq miles.
}}} does Putin have more blood on his hands than Hillary Clinton?
Hey, everyone, I found the retard!
Of course Putin does. HIS crap goes on behind closed borders and with a fully compliant media which is utterly cowed by his dictatorial powers. If you came up to him and said he was a dickhead, on the streets of Moscow, you would be inside Lubyanka prison or its current equivalent within hours. And the Russian government would be all, “Dave who?!?!?”
Hillary’s media support is only based on political support not abject fear. Have people been killed for offending Hillary? Possibly, but not all that many, or it would have been noticed. Her potential victims are numbered retail, not wholesale.
Don’t get me wrong, Hillary is a bitch from Hell, and should be removed by some moral sanitary authority… as should Putin. But, lacking such an authority, we are stuck with them.