Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?
I can.
Hey – I can even walk and listen to music at the same time, and I often do. So what?
But Roger Taylor. Ah, Taylor could sing up a storm and drum up a storm at the same time. To wit:
I listened to Taylor on that particular song and kept thinking “he sounds like somebody, he sounds like somebody.” But I couldn’t think who that might be. It was driving me nuts. And then it came to me—Rod Stewart.
Kind of.
But Stewart did just one thing at a time: sing. Taylor did a lot lot more. They both wrote songs, though.
Taylor’s got a mean falsetto, too, so high it might set your teeth on edge. But impressive in its own way:
I know that Taylor’s not the only singing drummer around. But still, they’re relatively rare, especially at that high level of accomplishment It takes a particular kind of mind that can double-task big time.
One of the other most impressive singing drummers of all time is Don Henley of the Eagles. I know a lot of people dislike him for various reasons. But boy, that guy could drum and sing:
ADDENDUM:
Levon Helm shows you how:
Roger Taylor wrote ‘I’m In Love With My Car’ and I think it was the B side of the original ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’ single and Taylor loved that song.
Most of the drummer/singer/frontmen would step away from the kit to sing I know Phil Collins did for the most part where as the drummers who did an occasional vocal like Taylor or Ringo seemed to stay behind the drums.
Seems crazy hard to do both well at the same time.
Phil Collins and Dave Grohl are two singing drummers who come to mind.
I have always appreciated Grohl because he seems like a genuinely nice human being.I get the impression in his discussions that Cobain’s death had set him on a positive direction in his life.
I will grant that you may very well be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, but can you rollerskate in a buffalo herd?
And then there’s the greatest singing drummer of them all – Karen Carpenter
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sdHyzGXAJPg
How about Levon Helm? The Band
Ted Fitch:
Take a look at the ADDENDUM I just added to the post.
Who popularized American yodeling? And to a lesser extent, falsetto?
Why, Jimmie Rodgers, the “Yodeling Brakeman”, back in the 1920s. He is considered the father of country music, and basically gave birth to the Blues, despite his white skin and PC popular myth. He was from rural southern Mississippi, a state which many of Neo’s readers have never entered. His yodeling style was adopted by Bill Monroe, the mandolin-playing father of Bluegrass, and it has been a feature of this genre ever since.
Jimmie died of tuberculosis in his 20s, sang and recorded til near the end in 1931. Wrote most of his songs too.
There is a museum dedicated to him in Laurel, MS.
Whoops! Rodgers died in 1933. So much for memory.
Someone else could play the drums and sing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOYlsDxciJE
And it’s a reaction video
Oh yeah, Ringo singing “Boys” (one of their best covers) complete with the head snaps.
ya left out Rick Allen the on armed drummer of deaf leopard (but he didnt sing)
1) Phil Collins – Genesis.
2) Don Henley – Eagles.
3) Karen Carpenter – The Carpenters.
4) Micky Dolenz – The Monkees.
5) Levon Helm – The Band.
6) Gil Moore – Triumph.
7) Ringo Starr – The Beatles.
8) Peter Criss – Kiss.
9) Kelly Keagy – Night Ranger
10) Roger Taylor – Queen
11) Dave Grohl – Nirvana/Foo Fighters
12) Don Brewer – Grand Funk Railroad
Sheila E. – The Glamorous Life (Official Music Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zqtl8azCs8
Gene Krupa was famous for Sing Sing Sing. Does that count? 🙂
Levon Helm sang one of my favorite songs ever “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down” which the woke are trying to ban, curse them. Peter Criss sang “Beth” which was Kiss’s highest charting single, but he usually came out from behind the drum to sing it.
@ Scott > “can you rollerskate in a buffalo herd?”
No, but I appreciate those who can, and I’m happy ’cause I have a mind to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6WjfuxfIiw
“Knuckle down, buckle down – do it, do it, do it.”
We need more people listening to Roger Miller instead of to Les Gogh Brandon (h/t to the new nom).
Without denying that it takes a special talent to separate one’s brain enough to be able to sing and drum at the same time, from my perspective as a sound engineer, there’s another reason singing drummers are relatively uncommon.
Drums are freakin’ LOUD!
Others have already pointed out that at least some of the singing drummers step out from behind the drums to sing. That’s a good thing. It is very, very difficult (particularly in the rock genre’) to both get adequate gain on a vocal mic AND keep that mic from picking up and horribly messing up the desired sound of the drums themselves. Add in the fact that more often than not effects (reverb, for example) are being added to the vocal channel but are either not wanted, or are of a different nature that those used on the drum channels, and it becomes a very delicate balancing act (in a live setting) getting both the vocal and the drums to sound the way you (the engineer) and they (the band) want them.
“Oh – you want that rifle shot snare with trailing reverb and also want the repeating synced vocal echo but don’t want them to bleed into each other?” Good luck with that.
I agree singing while drumming is impressive, but how is it harder than singing while playing piano? There have been a lot of great singing piano players. Piano is also percussion and I don’t see how it’s any less complex than drums. A drummer has four things going on at once; two feet, two hands, and maybe 5 different things to do with those four limbs. Foot-wise, your deciding whether to hit the bass drum or the high hat, and those are foot specific. Not to take away from drumming, but compared to the options a pianist has with his ten fingers and one foot, it’s a lot less complex.
And, of course, singing guitarists. Some are bass and rhythm players, which is usually a bit more basic than lead, but some are also lead.
I think most musicians can sing and play. Two of the instruments I play require the mouth, brass and reed, so one can’t really sing and play simultaneously, but I’m often mentally singing while I play each, and I’m not a very good pianist, but I can sing and play piano on quite a few songs. It’s just something that starts happening when you reach a certain level of proficiency. It’s two, different things. It literally is like walking and chewing gum.
I remember early on, with piano, doing different things with my left and right hands was extremely difficult, but over time it became quite natural and my brain developed new pathways that simply kept track of what both were doing simultaneously.
Regarding drumming, singing drummers do deserve credit for how physical drumming is and how much wind someone needs to sing well. Drumming is different than piano or guitar in that regard.
There are simultaneous singing bass players, drummers, keyboards (even organ, which has more complex foot movement than drumming), guitarists… but I can’t think of any violinist/fiddle players. Maybe because the instrument is so close to one’s mouth it’s hard to also get close to a microphone? I’m sure I’ve seen bluegrass fiddlers sing, but I don’t recall seeing them do both at the same time. There must be simultaneous singing fiddlers. Did Charlie Daniels do both at the same time?
Oh, there are also many “mouth” instrumentalists who do simultaneous, vocal things. Ian Anderson of “Jethro Tull” (as well as other flautists) would do a technique where he did vocal tones with his throat while playing flute. I know there’s at least one sing where Magic Dick, the harmonica player with the J. Geils Band does something similar. There is a device called a talkbox that some guitar players use. It makes their voice alter their guitar sound. Joe Walsh’s, “Rocky Mountain Way” and Peter Frampton’s, “Show me the Way” are two famous versions of this.
I promise you, many brass and reed players are “singing” in their minds while they play and would easily do both if they didn’t have an instrument in their mouths. Even symphonic players. After a certain, basic level of mastery it just starts happening.
neo is a dancer. Can she dance and sing? I’m sure she can and has. Look at how complex dancing is. Yet, at a certain level of mastery one’s mind can shift to other, simultaneous tasks. Is Gene Kelly’s singing and dancing in “Singing in the Rain*” any less impressive than Ringo Starr singing, “Octopus’ Garden?” Hint: Kelly is much more impressive and I’m sure Ringo would agree.
People are made to sing!
*And think of the physicality of O’Connor on, “Make ’em Laugh,” or Kelly and O’Connor on, “Moses Supposes.”
Steve, I had the same thought and I imagine why that’s why it’s more rare. I don’t think it has anything to do with the complexity of the instrument. I think it’s just as easy to sing and play drums as it is to sing and play guitar, or keyboards, or trumpet (the trumpet player simply can’t, however, because there is a trumpet in her face), but the noise of the instrument and fact that the source can’t be relocated, like a guitarist or keyboardist’s amplifier, makes it tough to hear a singing drummer without bleed over from the drums.
One other thing:
Marching bands! If you’ve never been to a drum and bugle corps competition, or paid close attention to a major, Collegiate marching band at halftime you’re missing out. It’s not just playing music, it’s the position of the instrument, posture, where one is moving to and from, the angle of one’s feet as one “marches…” The casual observer doesn’t even notice how many different steps band members use. It’s been a long time since I marched in College, but there were at least three different steps we used often; frontwards, backwards, sidewards… We even moonwalked while playing! And it is very physical.
People do a lot of amazing things while playing music. I have a friend who plays saxophone while riding a unicycle every year in her town’s Independence Day Parade! Let’s see Phil Collins do that! 🙂
Dingle mingle,
Ringo singing, “Boys” just may be my favorite Beatles song. Sincerely. And it’s a cover.
To clarify something I wrote about marching; it’s not three different foot movements; frontwards, backwards, sidewards. It’s three different steps you do while ALSO marching frontwards, backwards and sidewards. Those steps vary on the height the foot is raised, angles of the ankles and knees, length of stride… Go to section B of this document if you want a taste of how complex it is: https://tbdbitl.osu.edu/sites/tbdbitl.osu.edu/files/Marching-Fundamentals.pdf#:~:text=THE%20CHAIR%20STEP%3A%20The%20fundamental%20marching%20step%20of,calf%20vertical%20to%20the%20ground%2C%20and%20toe%20pointed.
And that’s Ohio State. Their Marching Band sucks. (Go Illini!) They’re a military style band and have less complexity than a show band.
Musical theater performers are an obvious analog. Look at how many things they are coordinating, managing, keeping track of, including other performers moving with and around them while they sing and dance.
And, with the advent of cordless mics that adhere well to performers we have dancing singers like Madonna, Britney Spears, Beyonce and a hundred others doing complex dance routines while singing. And boy groups like ‘N Sync and a hundred others whose names I don’t know, including an Asian group that I see in several TV ads.
As I wrote above. People are made to sing. It’s hard to stop us from doing it!
There is a joke, “What do you call someone who hangs out with musicians? A drummer”. Yet as a musician who is not a drummer (mostly electric or upright bass) I think drums are the *most* musical instrument. Rhythm is the most fundamental aspect of music, more so than even melody or harmony because all music takes place over time. And I have learned through many years of playing in bands that rhythm and timing is the most important thing to get right, even before you play the right notes.
Rufus, I have never played in a marching band or drum and bugle corps. But my son played for many years with a drum and bugle corps, Santa Clara Vanguard. Once we traveled to Indianapolis for a national competition, it was quite a spectacle. He is now a music teacher at several high schools, working with the marching bands there.
Note the distinction between drum and bugle corps vs. marching bands: drum and bugle has only brass while marching bands also have reeds (flute, saxophone).
FOAF, I saw a Marching Band competition at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis! 2018? Kudos to your son. Several members in my band are instructors and teach band. Quite a challenge!
As far as rock, blues and jazz I’ve always felt drums and bass are the most important components of a band. It’s hard for a band to be good without a good drummer and bassist, but it’s hard to find good drummers and bassists, and drummers and bassists have to be in sync in a way the other musicians do not.
Also, it’s hard to find drummers who are willing to really focus on the fundamentals and often be in the background when other bandmembers are front and center, getting more attention. Drummers are true, unsung heroes.
Rufus T. Firefly makes a good point. Is it any harder to sing while drumming versus playing any other instrument?
Aside from using one’s feet, not just hands, the only difference that comes to mind is drumming is much more physically forceful than playing guitar or piano.
I recall from the Charlie Watts discussion that Watts’s light, relaxed jazz style of play enhanced his longevity as a drummer. Could Keith Moon (Who) or John Bonham (Led Zeppelin) have kept up their ferocious styles into their late seventies? One doubts it.
Aside: At the end of the Beatles’ “Helter Skelter” you can hear someone crying out in the background, “I’ve got blisters on my fingers!”
I always assumed that was Lennon, complaining in his tortured artist way. But no, it was Ringo.
Later I read that there was usually a pile of splintered wood beneath Ringo’s kit at the end of a long day in the studio. He was banging his drums that hard to get the full punch onto the track.
“I know there’s at least one song where Magic Dick, the harmonica player with the J. Geils Band does something similar.”
I’m a big harmonica enthusiast and even invented an electric harmonica (http://www.harmonicaster.com). Magic Dick’s “Whammer Jammer” is right up with Little Walter’s “Juke” when it comes to a harp player trying to demonstrate his or her chops. With the possible exception of the advanced techniques of overbending (listen to Howard Levy or Will Scarlett for that) Whammer Jammer uses just about the full range of harmonica technique. Generally, if someone can make it through Whammer Jammer they can play harp decently.
I believe that what you are referring to is a descending vocal slide Dick (nee: Richard Salwitz) does in the middle of Whammer Jammer. Since he’s singing through his harmonica mic, it comes out pretty distorted.
FWIW, Paul Butterfield and Howlin’ Wolf both did a fair amount of grunting through their harps.
A lot of musicians “sing” the melody along with their instrumental playing. Some jazz instructors encourage it. Hendrix did it (Hear My Train A Comin’) so did classical pianist Glenn Gould, and jazz pianist Keith Jarrett (check out the Koln Concerts).
Also, it’s hard to find drummers who are willing to really focus on the fundamentals and often be in the background when other bandmembers are front and center, getting more attention. Drummers are true, unsung heroes.
Rufus T. Firefly:
In a tribute to Charlie Watts, Max Weinberg (drummer for Springsteen) said the classic ad for a rock drummer was “Looking for a Charlie Watts drummer.”
huxley,
John Densmore of The Doors is another jazz influenced rock drummer.
Johann Amadeus,
I remember the link to your invention when you posted it awhile back. I spent quite a bit of time on the site and checking out the videos. I’m looking forward to the official, product launch. Hopefully you’ll let us know when that happens. Congratulations on the execution of a cool idea. You are quite talented.
I haven’t done it in years, but I could play “Whammer Jammer,” just couldn’t find a band willing to feature it. John Popper and Howard Levy’s stuff on the other hand… Never quite got there. And then there’s Toots Thielemans!
huxley,
Rock drummers… It’s a really hard thing. One has to love rock (or blues or jazz) and love to perform for an audience, but be willing to have few or no solo parts showcasing you, personally, yet you are literally the one leading, controlling, driving the band. I’ve played with some very talented drummers who did not have the personality to manage the combination of skills required.
Guitar players, trumpet players, singers, saxophonists… are famous for being prima donnas. You can be an *asshole and/or drunk/drug abuser (see Jim Morrison) and still survive in a band as a guitar player, singer, saxophonist or trumpet player if the rest of the band covers for you. No such luck with a drummer. A drummer who wants to be the center of attention won’t last with a band. It’s rumored that’s why McCartney wanted Pete Best out of the Beatles. Best was getting too much attention.
Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa are exceptions, but they were both so absurdly talented people would pay to see bands centered on them. Rich was supposedly an *sshole, but Krupa was supposedly a good guy who didn’t need the limelight.
huxley @ 3:11pm,
From my experience each instrument finds an equivalent level of difficulty based on the instrument’s design. The music they fall into exploits their challenges. If you heard a keyboard player duplicate an Al Hirt trumpet solo you’d be bored, as would the keyboard player.
They are all equally hard to master.
Sorry about my blue language in the second paragraph of my comment at 3:55pm! I meant for the asterisk to substitute for the letter “a,” as I did in the 3rd paragraph. My fingers got ahead of me and typed the entire word out.
Not only can many performers sing while playing music, or dancing, or marching, or…
You’d be surprised what else many of them are doing while performing. Again, I am nowhere near as experienced as a professional, and yet I find my mind wandering often. Sometimes it amuses me what I find myself thinking about while I’m playing or singing. It’s often completely unrelated to what is happening on stage. The only thing I find difficult is thinking in detail about other songs. Sometimes while playing an easy passage in one song I’ll try to think about difficult passages in later songs, or lyrics I have to sing, and I find it very hard to remember the other songs in those moments.
Imagine a Broadway performer or ballerina, after their 200th performance (and 3 months of 8 hour/day practices prior) of a show. It’s muscle memory. I’m sure their minds wander to all kinds of interesting things.
Regarding the human mind’s ability to wander during challenging activities; there’s a funny joke with the punchline, “Beige, I think I’ll paint the ceiling beige.”
It’s rumored that’s why McCartney wanted Pete Best out of the Beatles. Best was getting too much attention.
Rufus T. Firefly:
Interesting. I hadn’t run across that. Although I wonder. I assumed Best didn’t quite have the fit or the chops, while Ringo was already established as one of the top rock drummers in Liverpool.
The story goes the first time the Fab Four played together, Paul looked at John and John looked at Paul and they shared a “What was that?” moment.
Re: Buddy Rich…
The scene in Seinfeld where George takes off on some noisy guys in a movie theater was based on tapes of Buddy Rich verbally flaying members of his band alive.
–“Jerry Seinfeld on the Buddy Rich Tapes”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKTyyVQEYbs
Rufus T. Firefly; huxley; et al:
Singing while drumming is actually harder than singing while playing most other instruments, and many musicians acknowledge this and discuss it. I think I’ll answer by writing a post on the subject to explain. Perhaps tomorrow.
neo,
I’m very curious to learn what musicians have to say about singing and drumming, because to me it’s a matter of “dumbing down” the instrumental performance when needing to emphasize the vocals. No one would debate Eric Clapton is a great guitarist and a talented singer, but listen to him when he does both live. The more into the vocals he gets the more fundamental his guitar strumming. Most lead guitarist/singers I’ve paid attention to are doing basic chords when singing, then play quick, lead riffs between vocal lines.
I think it’s a question of how elaborate one wants to drum. I don’t see why keeping basic time while singing, then doing flourishes between vocalizations, would be any more or less difficult,* or different than what all those rock guitarists are doing.
And think of my examples of musical theater performers. They are moving all their limbs in time, in intricate, choreographed patterns, yet sing tremendously at the same time.
I’m listening to music while typing this. Just as an experiment I started drumming my hands and feet to the song, as if I was playing a simple drum kit with pedals for bass and a high hat, using the table surface as a tom, while simultaneously singing the lyrics. No problem. I even easily added little drum fills between lyrics.
*Aside from the noise components brought up by Steve.
So, from immense fear that the boss (neo) has uncovered something about the drums that I hadn’t anticipated I’ve done some googl’ing. I found some interesting takes on the subject where folks claimed it’s harder, but I also found plenty of comments from folks stating it’s not, including plenty from drummers who do it. I find the following comment to be very informative, and, you’ll note, he makes the same claim that I did, that even though he is not asked to do it because his singing voice doesn’t have a great tone, he often does it, because it’s hard not to sing when a good song is playing. But since he’s not mic’ed, and drums are loud, no one hears.
Two drummer jokes from Phil Collins’ memoir:
Q: Did you hear about the drummer who was homeless?
A: He broke up with his girlfriend. [Single while drumming?]
Q: Did you hear about the drummer who graduated high schoo?
A: Neither did I.
Rufus T. Firefly his ownself said, “Drummers and bassists have to be in sync in a way that other musicians do not,” and that’s true, and it’s funny to think at the same time how great Cream were — just guitar, bass and drums — and how Ginger Baker loathed Jack Bruce, really towering, lofty contempt. It’s funny. The great Ginger Baker. The great Jack Bruce. I don’t get it, but it’s funny.
Rufus T.Firefly:
Of course you can find people who say it’s not hard. But it depends who is saying it, and in particular it depends what type of drumming they’re talking about, as well as what type of singing they’re talking about. Obviously, basic drumming is not what we’re talking about – that would be nearly as easy as clapping while singing. And obviously, there are exceptions – people who find it all relatively easy to do even with complexity.
As I said, I plan to write about it in greater depth another day.
Rufus T. Firefly:
Mark Knopfler plays complex guitar as he sings, and Richard Thompson does the same. I assume there are others I’m not thinking of at the moment, but there’s a great variety of abilities in regard to playing guitar and singing even in famous professional musicians.
And no, with singing drummers – or any singer – we’re not talking about singing along in a singing voice that isn’t good and that nobody hears, almost like humming along.
In fact, many drummers do chime in at times with harmony singing on a chorus and that’s not considered very difficult, as opposed to singing lead at a pretty high level, which is usually considered difficult to do while drumming.
…how Ginger Baker loathed Jack Bruce, really towering, lofty contempt. It’s funny. The great Ginger Baker. The great Jack Bruce. I don’t get it, but it’s funny.
Baceseras:
There is a great series of rock documentaries (I will not say “rockumentaries”) tagged “Classic Album” for this or that. So we have “Cream: Disraeli Gears (Classic Albums).”
It includes Eric Clapton semi-joking around about how he knew he wanted Bruce and Baker for a trio and he knew they hated each other, so he had to broach the idea very delicately.
Clapton managed to negotiate the formation of the band and Cream was wildly successful. Baker, when interviewed, appeared to be a very prickly character.
Jack Bruce was a great musican with roots in jazz and classical. He was also that amazing lead voice for Cream (while playing bass).
–Cream, “Sunsine of Your Love”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt51rITH3EA
neo,
I’ve been thinking a lot more about this and I think, like the drummer whose comment I pasted above, it’s much more to do with the drummer’s role in rock, jazz and blues groups, along with the difficulty of adequately mic’ing a playing drummer than anything else.
No, Knopfler does not do his most complex singing while he simultaneously does his most complex solo’ing. Clapton is a master at quickly switching back and forth, as was Stevie Ray Vaughan. You can hear it obviously when listening to them. Knopfler is more subtle, but he does it also. It’s vocal, face-searing guitar work, vocal, face-searing guitar work…
And how do you account for Billy Joel, Elton John or any other of the great, rock, jazz and blues keyboardists? Piano is a percussion instrument. Singing piano players are percussionists who sing. The reason you see a lot more keyboard players singing lead is because they can be front and center while doing it, and they don’t have loud, vibrating circles of metal and plastic near their microphones. And keyboard players do different phrasing with both hands often, including with fingers within a hand. While singing!
Marvin Gaye, Karen Carpenter, Mel Torme… Three great drummers who also had great voices. All three invariably stepped away from their drum kits to perform, allowing someone else to do the drumming while they sang, except for fun on some songs. All three could drum and sing, but singers should be standing, front and center. The logistics of a drum kit make that difficult. So, when crowds were paying more to see them sing, they stopped drumming. Same with Phil Collins. Keyboardists and guitar players can do both and move around at the front of a stage.
And, again, if managing the coordination of moving one’s hand and feet in rhythm while singing different phrasing is rare, how do you account for all the musical theater folks doing just that?
And, neo, I don’t mean to sound abrasive. This is all meant in good sport.
huxley,
I realized after writing my comment that I forgot Ginger Baker. You likely know the Muppet, Animal, was based on him. I still intend to watch the documentary, “Beware of Mr. Baker.” I really like his drumming, but there are so many stories of him abusing so many people, including his loved ones.
Glad ALL Over…drummer Dave Clark
Back up vocals count? Chris Frantz- Talking Heads
A question about English sparked by the conclusion of neo’s post.
“To wit” is followed by a specific example of what is discussed just before the phrase “to wit”.
And “whit” is an old-fashioned word that means a tiny particle of something, such as “I will not give you one whit of the food.”
Is “to whit” ever used, or is that just not a correct pairing of words?
Rufus T. Firefly:
You wrote: “No, Knopfler does not do his most complex singing while he simultaneously does his most complex solo’ing.”
I never said that Knopfler or anyone does that. Here’s what I said: “Mark Knopfler plays complex guitar as he sings.” That’s different.
There’s a continuum. Some people simply can’t sing as they play at all, particularly with drums and bass guitar for some reason (rhythm guitar is considered by most to be quite easy to sing and play at the same time). Some can do both when both activities are kept very simple. Some can do it when at least one of the activities are at a more complex level; and some (rarer) when both are moderately complicated. But I don’t think anyone plays their most complex instrumental music as they sing their most complex singing, although that certainly would be something to see.
@ JimNorCal > don’t know if this totally answers your question but it was fun.
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/to-whit-to-wit.1195828/
I have never seen “to whit” in print, but I can manage to fake an idiom, to wit:
“Are you going to whit that stick (whittle it down to tiny particles) or make something of it?” (carve a figure of some sort)
And yes, my kinfolk were whittlers. Uncle Bob did fancy carving and won quite a few awards, but he wasn’t averse to whittling an old pine stick down to shavings just to pass the time.
JimNorCal —
According to wiktionary.com, “to wit” was originally “that is to wit” meaning “that is to know”. “Wit” was used where we use “know” in several phrases which are mostly obsolete now, for instance “wit ye well” (“take notice of this”).
“Whit”, as you said, means “the smallest part or particle imaginable” and comes from Middle English “wight”. So “to whit” would be meaningless.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/to_wit
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whit#English
neo @ 12:22am,
As I wrote, I started doing some googl’ing, to try and see where you were getting your information. As I thought about the topic, just logically thinking through it, I could not reason a reason why your theory would hold, but, as I wrote, I did find comments from drummers claiming it was difficult. (I also found comments from drummers stating it wasn’t.) Another piece of the puzzle, like you, I found comments from bass players stating that singing and playing bass was also difficult. I only found comments from drummers and bass players. That’s why I posted the particular comment from a drummer that I posted. I think he does a good job of outlining what is really going on.
Theory: Because drums and bass are the “rhythm section” and their role is to keep time, their playing is much more focused on the rhythm, so doing something looser, like singing, is more difficult than with other instruments.
That seems like it makes sense until one thinks about it a bit more. In trios that do not have a keyboard player the singer is often the bass player; Cream, Rush, The Police. Even some groups with keyboard players, like Emerson Lake and Palmer, have singing bassists. In quartets without a keyboard it’s usually the rhythm or bass, but sometimes it’s lead guitar. When you see someone primarily known for singing holding a guitar on stage; Dylan, Elvis and a hundred others, they’re typically playing rhythm. What’s also interesting about this is I can’t think of any UPRIGHT bass players who are/were lead singers. I think Willie Dixon sang and played upright early in his career? I also can’t think of a trio where the drummer is the lead singer.
So, we’ve found an anomaly. There are a lot of famous singer/bass guitarists (Gordon Sumner aka “Sting”, Geddy Lee, Paul McCartney, Greg Lake, Jack Bruce), and it seems most common in trios and they all play electric bass when singing, not upright. The theory that there is something unique about “rhythm” instruments, making singing harder, isn’t borne out by evidence. And even in groups where a lead or rhythm guitar player sings lead vocals, or a keyboard player does, electric bass players often sing backup, including complex harmonies.
Reason two why the above theory doesn’t make sense. Keyboards are percussion instruments! The closest relative to a drum kit on the stage is a keyboard. Not an electric or upright bass. Yet, lead singing keyboard players are very common in rock, jazz and blues bands.
Reason three why the theory doesn’t make sense. All instruments keep time. I almost always tap a foot when playing. It’s actually harder to not tap one’s foot than to tap one’s foot. John Lennon used to do a little, bowlegged back and forth rocking. Even when I don’t visibly tap a foot I lift my toes up and tap the inside of one of my shoes to the tempo. Some instruments are more typically on the beat than others, but all are usually playing important notes right on the beat; especially rhythm guitarists. And, back to the keyboard players; most commonly the left hand is playing chords on the beat as the right hand does more “singing” kinds of stuff. I do listen to the drummer and bass player to make sure my time is matching their time, and if they speed up or slow down I’ll change my time to match theirs, but that’s because that’s their job. They are the metronomes. Even if they’re off, they’re right. The band gets its time from the rhythm section.
I think that gives us an indication to one of the reasons you don’t see a lot of singing drummers; drummers are too important! If you asked blues, rock or jazz performers, “If you had to sacrifice one of your instrumentalists and divide his or her focus, what instrument would you choose?” I can’t imagine anyone would pick drums. The drummer has to be focused on her own work, and also focused on the bass player, and whoever is out front leading the band (singer, lead guitar, singing guitarist, singing keyboard player…). If the drummer loses focus the band falls apart. It’s the heartbeat of the band. Audiences tend to think a lot about lead singers and lead guitar players. Band members think a lot about drummers.
I think we’ve also pieced together another reason, logistics. This is why the upright vs. electric bass is interesting. Plenty of great, lead singing electric bassists. No lead singing upright bassists. Why such a dearth when it comes to upright bass and drums? Logistics. Until wireless mics were common it’s hard and expensive to mic an upright bass or drums. And, as Steve wrote, it takes expensive sound equipment to mic a drummer so his instrument doesn’t bleed into the mic. Electric guitar and keyboard players’ instruments make almost no, discernible local sound, near the musician. The sound is wired through amps and monitors.
I can attest to this mattering. When I was in High School and first started meeting in different guys’ basements or garages to play, and sometimes form groups, we were lucky if we had one, single microphone and a stand. Even if a drummer wanted to sing we couldn’t have afforded the set up. In bands without a dedicated, lead singer it often comes down to logistics; who can play while standing in front of a microphone AND, who is most expendable. Electric bass players and rhythm guitarists can strip down their playing to fundamentals without much notice by an audience. When I think of great, singing drummers; Carpenter, Torme, Gaye… I notice most of them abandon their instrument most of the time when performing. Why? They obviously started out doing both and can do both well. I think the reason is performance. It’s more entertaining to see a singer at the front of the stage, in front of the band. This also connects to the electric vs. upright bass connection. Even Billy Joel and Elton John get up from their keyboards to sing some songs. Joel even plays guitar sometimes.
Yet, as neo found, and I found with some googl’ing, there are musicians claiming singing while drumming is harder. We ought to take them at their word. They are musicians. Yet, we’ve also found musicians claiming it’s not. So what could be causing this discrepancy?
Singing is all about the melody and drummers don’t focus on the melody. (Fundamentally. Good drummers do pay attention to the lyrics and accent different parts of melody and lyric.) As the drummer’s comment I posted above states, there is one singer he plays with who is so loose with the melody it would mess the drummer up if he paid attention to him. Think of sheet music. Notes have “time;” whole note, half note, dotted eighth, hemi-demi-semi quaver… Notes also have pitch, where they are on the staff. Drums don’t play the pitch part. All musicians but drummers learn to read two components of musical notes; what’s the beat and what’s the pitch. (Fundamentally. Different drums have different pitches. That slow run Phil Collins does on “In the Air Tonight” is going from higher pitch toms to lower pitch toms*.
https://youtu.be/YQGD6Sr1IrM ) Pitch is a huge component of music and it’s the most important element of singing. All instrumentalists but drummers are thinking about pitch all the time. It’s something one has to develop.
As mentioned above, when I was a teen in various garages with various other teens it was akin to playing pick up baseball, “Who has a bat? Who has a catcher’s mitt?” The poor guy who owned a catcher’s mitt was going to play catcher, whether that was his dream, or not. So it was with singing. Sometimes there was a guy who wanted to sing, but often none of us wanted to sing and it would come down to, “Hey, Rufus, you don’t have much to do on this song why don’t you sing it?” So I had to start practicing singing. And over time I got better. I was gosh awful when I started! Out of tune. Out of tempo. Forgetting lyrics.
When I started playing piano I was so frustrated at times I almost cried. The impossibility of concentrating on both hands (and a foot keeping tempo) doing separate things musically seemed impossible. It was painful. One of my sons, who is a very talented pianist, but began at a much younger age than me, confided to me that he did cry at times. Even when he was quite good a particular song with unusual, Asian rhythm and chords frustrated him immensely. (He did master it and won a competition playing it.) But, as I wrote, in time, my brain started forming new pathways and it became easier. After awhile those pathways were subconscious enough that I found myself singing while playing. Drummers never have to form those pathways unless they intentionally choose to, and if they choose to it’s a very long and frustrating road. When I started playing piano I thought playing piano and singing was extremely difficult, well nigh impossible. It took years of repetition and muscle memory to get to a point where, now, it’s quite natural. Most drummers never form those pathways so, yeah, it’s really difficult!
One other point, I’m confident if you asked most any singing instrumentalist to sit at a drum kit and sing they’d figure it out quite quickly. After getting comfortable with the basic functions of the two foot pedals and holding the sticks they’d be able to drum at a basic level to a song they are used to singing. As I wrote in an earlier comment; I gave it a try yesterday, using a table top as a tom and moving both feet to imaginary pedals and I could do it while singing, even uneven phrases, no problem. And, I can’t stress this enough; I am not a good musician! I’m a hack. I know good musicians, and I’m sure they could do it easily and well in short order. The drumming wouldn’t be impressive. You can’t master drums in a day or week, but when Paul McCartney is singing his heart out on, “Live and Let Die” his bass playing isn’t impressive. But someone whose developed the mental and physical dexterity to sing while playing an instrument could adapt that skill to drums. Paul McCartney has sung and played drums on songs, by the way.
When I think of all the crazy, complicated things people do while singing (watch a Broadway musical), including incredibly rhythmic things, like tap dancing, I don’t see any evidence that people who have mastered singing while doing other, musical things, struggle with singing while keeping time.
*Funny thing in that video. He opens by singing the vocal leading to the run and then laughs and says, “That’s why I’m a drummer.” He’s out of key and doesn’t sing with good tone. In other words, “Since I can’t sing I focused on drums.” Or, perhaps, because I play drums I haven’t had to learn to sing.
I just remembered something. The first time I played with a group (14 years old?) we met in the drummer’s basement* and it was decided I would sing because my instrument at the time, harmonica, had the least to do musically in most of the songs. I was awful. The drummer, a great, close friend, actually was a good singer. He had been singing for years in his church’s choir. Between practices he would teach me to sing. When we started he was the best singer in our group but nobody, including him, thought of having him sing. We couldn’t have done it. We didn’t have the sound equipment. Rather than buying a bunch of sound equipment we couldn’t afford the solution was to teach a lousy singer how to sing. We really weren’t worried about the singing. It was logistics and cost.
*Another thing about drummers; practice is almost always at their house. Logistics. Any good drummer had very patient and kind parents.
Re Marching Bands:
I played trumpet in high school orchestra and jazz band, but never in marching band. I always wondered how the brass players didn’t beat the crap out of their lips and teeth. Didn’t the mouthpiece bang into their mouth with every step?
side note – I was a clumsy kid.
Steph,
Moving the instrument in conjunction with your body while playing happens pretty naturally. Although, on more than one occasion, I bang’ed my teeth (and fattened a lip) fairly bad when first pulling my instrument up to my mouth. There are times when you march with your instrument “at rest,” holding it directly in front of your body, vertically. Then, it’s a neat, visual effect if everyone pulls to “attention” position on the same beat. So you quickly move your horn from vertical, nearly touching your chest and belt buckle, to your mouth. If one does it too forcefully, Wham! Right in the kisser!
Thanks RTF.
Just saw The Eagles live last Saturday. Henley’s singing is indeed impressive (especially at age 74) but his drumming is pretty vanilla and always has been.
Man! I sure do miss Levon Helm and The Band.
Lotsa comments here, if i missed it: one of the obvious problems with singing and violin or viola is the general need for the chin rest… You can’t play the instrument while singing.
I suppose one might rig up an alternative if you wanted to do both, but it would require some mechanival innovation as well as skilz at violin and singing.
Moreover, you’d necessarily have to alter your motion technique in order to do it, as your overall body position would not match the norms for violin playing. That would require some innovative approaches to playing violins
Well… Looks like I beat this thread to death. https://youtu.be/oShTJ90fC34
No.
Nobody can walk and chew gum at the same time.
That’s just crazy talk!