…if I could figure out whether the information we’re getting on that is reliable or too speculative so far.
But here’s a thread for you to discuss the subject in the meantime. And here are a couple of articles: this as well as this.
Comments
I would write a post on the Southwest Airlines cancellations and the reasons behind them… — 81 Comments
Neo– according to Liberty Beacon, a lot of airline pilots are former military:
“Airline pilots have more leverage than most workers because it takes so long to train them. Most – some estimate 80% of Southwest’s pilots – come out of the military. That’s why former military and commercial pilot and Congressional candidate Buzz Patterson was contemptuous of a suggestion that replavements [sic] could be found.”
There is a copy of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association’s motion for a restraining order at the link.
When the explanation fails to account for the facts we know, the explanation is likely wrong. When the CIA said that TWA Flt 800 had an internal explosion which tore off the front of the plane and the plane then CLIMBED over 3000 feet, every person with the slightest knowledge of flying knew it was bullsh*t. Not possible.
The SWA official explanation for all the cancellations yesterday similarly fails the smell test. Airline folks are laughing at it.
There are certain people (easily identified) who have been lying to us for years on every single issue. Their statements should never be taken as true. The statements of people they strong arm and bully should never be taken as true. The reporting of their propagandists should never be regarded as fact.
Politics has infected everything. And the people on the left lie. About everything. Always.
For a good many years, the FDA approval was required for everything more complex than breathing. And every ad for prescription drugs comes with a list of horrifying possible side effects, some of which, “may have occurred”.
And now the rushed, hurried, warp speed, emergency false vaxxes are not subject to lengthy tests, they are also certified by ommission to have no side effects. Except the ones that do happen which, by omission, don’t happen.
And people are skeptical….
More grist.
Plus a stirring defense of freedom by a fellow dressed as an airline pilot.
I wonder if NY will requisition Natl Guard for commercial airlines like they did for healthcare worker replacement?
According to this, the SW Air flight cancellations may be due to
1) pilots notified their jobs are gone as of Nov unless vaxxed
2) pilots using their banked vacation time before it’s lost https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1447533987770023941
For years Southwest Airlines was one of the few non-union airlines. Pilots, flight attendants, baggage handlers, mechanics, the lot of them were non-union. They attracted a certain type of workers. That independence is hard to eradicate. Don’t hire a bunch of independent thinkers, who defy national trends, and expect them to not be independent thinkers.
Say has anybody seen anything on who paid for the bricks that were unloaded in riot sites last summer? Just asking for my friend Brandon. Let’s go Brandon.
lee’s links are interesting, especially the SWA employees using work-to-rule strategy. I had never heard of that before, but given the FAA’s myriad regulations I can see how that could have a devastating effect.
Apropos of SWA pilots being former military: here’s a video of a Southwest captain and Air Force veteran whose father, an Air Force colonel, was killed over Laos in 1967. The father’s remains were identified in 2019, and the son was given the honor of flying his dad back to Dallas.
What’s noteworthy is the respect shown by the SWA ground employees and the Dallas police as well as the Air Force honor guard as the casket is carried from the plane:
When the CIA said that TWA Flt 800 had an internal explosion which tore off the front of the plane and the plane then CLIMBED over 3000 feet, every person with the slightest knowledge of flying knew it was bullsh*t. Not possible.
It’s the National Transportation Safety Board which investigates aviation accidents.
Art Deco–
I think stan @1:54 mentioned the CIA because the CIA did make a notorious video animation of the last moments of TWA 800. Jack Cashill said in 2009, “Why the CIA was involved in a domestic airplane ‘accident’ is anyone’s guess. The media never bothered to ask. . . . A key animation sequence in the CIA video showed not a missile but an internal fuel tank explosion blowing the nose off the aircraft. According to the video’s narration, TWA 800 then ‘pitched up abruptly and climbed several thousand feet from its last recorded altitude of about 13,800 feet to a maximum altitude of about 17,000 feet.'”
is purported to be the three page form Southwest Employees must file to claim a religious exemption from a vaccine against the COVID-19 virus. If it is accurate it seems like a slam dunk legal case against the company.
Herb Kelleher is likely spinning in his grave. I LUV’ed SWA under Herb’s tenure. Still a lot of wonderful employees there, but it ain’t what it used to be.
No, no, it’s today’s geomagnetic storm caused by the solar mass ejection that is projected to interrupt satellite communications, GPS accuracy, and quite possibly a mass extinction event at midday.
Contrary to normal practice, the FBI took command and control of the TWA Flt. 800 investigation with the NTSB in a secondary role. One might assume that the NTSB did all of crash analysis, but even there the FBI inserted itself in a few areas such as explosive residue analysis. The bullsh_t CIA produced spontaneous explosion scenario was the final “insult to injury” of the whole sordid mess.
I think stan @1:54 mentioned the CIA because the CIA did make a notorious video
Why would National Geographic rely on the CIA to produce animations for their documentaries? Who has attributed their animation to the CIA?
What’s your contention, that the NTSB concocted a phony report?
Contrary to normal practice, the FBI took command and control of the TWA Flt. 800 investigation with the NTSB in a secondary role. One might assume that the NTSB did all of crash analysis, but even there the FBI inserted itself in a few areas such as explosive residue analysis. The bullsh_t CIA produced spontaneous explosion scenario was the final “insult to injury” of the whole sordid mess.
You mean the NTSB does the ‘crash analysis’, but somehow the conclusion is composed by an agency with no relevant expertise and we all know this from what source?
Jack Cashill said in 2009, “Why the CIA was involved in a domestic airplane ‘accident’ is anyone’s guess. The media never bothered to ask. . .
Why do you take what Jack Cashill says at face value?
I hope to see much more mass disobediance of ‘mandates’.
That the FBI and CIA were involved and controlled the investigation of an airline ‘accident’ should tell you all you need to know regarding the veracity of the official story. Lies all the way down.
Australia and Lithuania are a preview of the next stage that the Left has planned for us.
BTW, has anyone else noted that Australia’s top ‘health’ official and Chicago Mayor Lightfoot have both now publicly stated that the public needs to show obediance to “The New World Order”?
That the FBI and CIA were involved and controlled the investigation of an airline ‘accident’ should tell you all you need to know regarding the veracity of the official story. Lies all the way down.
Except you keep asserting they ‘controlled’ the investigation without telling me what your source is other than someone mentioning Jack Cashill. Cashill’s business model is selling books where he tells you some story he assures you has been heretofore concealed by malevolent individuals. AFAICT, the only primary sources in his bibliography would be the NTSB report itself and some URLs. And he has no background in aerospace engineering which would allow him some critical engagement with the material.
“has anyone else noted that Australia’s top ‘health’ official and Chicago Mayor Lightfoot have both now publicly stated that the public needs to show obediance to “The New World Order”?”
We’ve ALWAYS been at war with EastAsia.
Art Deco,
I’ve seen and read many presentations on the TWA crash of varying quality and expertise. It is well known by everybody who’s looked at it, that the FBI and CIA were involved. One moderately shocking fact that no one disputes is that there were pieces of aircraft with possible residue on them that were removed from the NTSB’s custody and were purportedly analyzed for explosives only by the FBI.
Also, you are correct to assume that there was only one official explanation of the crash and it is in the NTSB report. That does not preempt the fact that the CIA created an expensively produced crash explanation with video and presented it to the media with great fanfare, well before the NTSB came to any official conclusions.
Wikipedia:
With lines of authority unclear, differences in agendas and culture between the FBI and NTSB resulted in discord.[39]:?1? The FBI, from the start assuming that a criminal act had occurred,[39]:?3? saw the NTSB as indecisive. Expressing frustration at the NTSB’s unwillingness to speculate on a cause, one FBI agent described the NTSB as “No opinions. No nothing.”[39]:?4? Meanwhile, the NTSB was required to refute or play down speculation about conclusions and evidence, frequently supplied to reporters by law enforcement officials and politicians.[29]:?3?[39]:?4? The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, an invited party to the NTSB investigation, criticized the undocumented removal by FBI agents of wreckage from the hangar where it was stored.[40]
You can look through the references if you wish.
Art Deco:
My contention was simply that stan@1:54 was not incorrect in referring to the CIA’s involvement in the TWA postmortem. I don’t know where you get the notion that I think the NTSB “concocted a phony report.” I had downloaded the NTSB’s 1996 341-page PDF on TWA 800 some years ago and just called it back up. There is a section beginning on page 248 subtitled “Central Intelligence Agency Review of the Witness Data” that refers to the CIA video in the running text and footnote 518. The NTSB states on that page that “Early in the investigation, at the FBI?s request, the CIA reviewed data regarding the TWA flight 800 accident (including witness reports and information; FDR, CVR, ATC, and radar data; and infrared sensor information from a U.S. satellite) to determine if the streak of light reported by many of the witnesses might have been a missile.” Footnote 518 reads “For additional information, see the CIA video, ?TWA Flight 800: What did the witnesses see?,? first shown at the November 18, 1997, FBI press conference.”
Now why the FBI and CIA were involved so intensively in the investigation is another question, but the NTSB did note their involvement.
Now why the FBI and CIA were involved so intensively in the investigation is another question, but the NTSB did note their involvement.
I saw what you did there. It says the FBI asked the CIA to ‘review data’, which is not a statement which indicates ‘intensive’ involvement. No clue why they would subcontract functions to the CIA rather than subdivisions of the Air Force. The CIA does nothing well. Note, it does not make reference to data that might be gleaned from the plane itself.
It is well known by everybody who’s looked at it, that the FBI and CIA were involved.
Repair to your original remarks. You said ‘controlled’.
I read somewhere that the ~2,000 Southwest flights cancelled over the weekend represented about 30% of all Soutwest flights, and that the continuation today represents about 10%.
What is fascinating to watch is the Establishment Media trying to pretend it isn’t happening by mentioning the event as little as possible, and by limiting the news-item coverage to the ‘man on the tarmac’ human-interest stories – the poor chap that missed his reunion, and so forth. There are mentions of bad weather that didn’t exist as well.
But no reporter is wondering out loud how Southwestern could have forgotten to arrange for pilots for 30% of their flights, or what else may have taken place to explain the outage. When it comes to reporting on that, everyone wants to be the last one in line.
I made reservations on Southwest for mid November. It will be interesting to see if this is resolved by then. I am guessing yes.
Nelson DeMille wrote a fun novel about TWA 800. He later wrote that he could not figure out how to end it. His son suggested that he have all the parties meet at the World Trade Center on September 11,2001. That’s how it ends.
Neo probably predicted this: “Southwest Airlines Offering Free Flights To All Passengers Who Are Vaccinated And Can Fly A Plane.”
“‘The requirements to take advantage of these incredible savings are simple,’ said Southwest CEO Bob Southwest to a crowd of customers who have been stuck at the airport all weekend and were frothing at the mouth in anger. ‘Show us proof of vaccination against COVID-19 and promise us you know how [to] fly commercial airliners, and your flight is on us.’ The CEO then mentioned other skills that were not required, but beneficial: Experience calming herds of rabid, sleepless passengers, expertise in flying through mysterious, invisible weather events, and the ability to land the plane.”
“No clue why they would subcontract functions to the CIA rather than subdivisions of the Air Force. The CIA does nothing well.”
You have no clue because you’re straining not to acknowledge the obvious. Multiple witnesses to the missile (streak of light rising from sea level and striking the plane). Gravely damaged plane performing an impossible 3000 ft. climb. Come on, man!
Nor is it true that the CIA does nothing well. They have no peers when it comes to concealing hard evidence. Just as the NSA has no peer in concealing communications it deems best left unknown. When the 3 letter agencies worked for America that was understandable but that was long ago. Defund and disband them all. Long past time for it. Plow the weeds under and plant anew.
You have no clue because you’re straining not to acknowledge the obvious.
There is no obvious. There’s just your imagination.
They have no peers when it comes to concealing hard evidence.
What evidence were they concealing from the NTSB?
Multiple witnesses to the missile (streak
I saw what you did there. See your local planetarium staff on how reliable are eyewitness reports of aerial phenomena.
I agree with Neo that we don’t know enough facts about the SWA situation. We just know that something extraordinary has happened, and it’s not weather. I’ve been warning since 9/30 when companies started rolling out the fed mandates en-masse that the results will not be pretty. If the pilots are using accumulated sick leave that will be revoked at time of termination on 12/8, then it’s not exactly a sick-out.
This will not all happen on 12/8. Many companies have picked 11/22 as their deadline, and most have basically encouraged refuseniks to leave voluntarily before that (probably to limit potential liability). My company hasn’t been completely clear on the threat part yet. I’ve asked whether they intend to terminate people “for cause” on 11/23, but have not been answered. A lot of employees’ actions depend on what happens to their benefits (401-K matching, unemployment eligibility, loss of accrued leave, etc.) depending on when and how they leave. And, of course, revealing company policies is usually a violation of non-disclosure agreements that can lead to legally justified termination for cause.
May God have mercy on us.
I flew yesterday afternoon from Atlanta to Hartford (Delta). No delays and very nice weather. And no apparent delays in the airport (although the TSA and airport people-not the airline people-were generally rude and unhelpful).
Just a data point.
Maybe the SW cancellations opened things up for the other airlines.
Couple of notes: There was some guy who was supposedly an expert in such things who claimed it was normal for people who see an aircraft explode to think they saw a “streak” going up toward it. Presumably this includes people other than flak gunners who got lucky. Like to know the controlled experiments.
The feds had three contradictory explanations for the explosive residue. Hint; Civil airliners are not to have explosive residue. It’s in the procedures manual. I figure they would have been better to stick with one improbable/implausible than add a couple of additional even dumber.
MANPADs are on the black market. Ours, the Stinger, has a warhead of almost seven pounds. Heck, everybody knows even the 81mm mortar’s HE head is ten pounds. A MANPAD would not blow up a big airliner. It would cause the a/c to blow up, a different scenario.
If, as reported, the centerline tank was not full, it would be fat city for a Stinger. And a Stinger is all-aspect, which is to say it doesn’t have to be homing on a not exhaust.
The round itself weighs 35 lbs and the launcher not much different. So you could take it out to the ocean in something not much bigger than a bass boat.
So why fib? If it were some clown with a missile, the feds would have had to blame the Tea Party, or else Clinton would have a problem on his hands involving whom to bomb.
One thing we know with absolute certainty regarding the SWA situation:
It wasn’t ‘weather.’
William Shatner’s adventure into space got put off due to weather.
Last night , Sunday night, there were strong wind storms that passed thru Texas. Hit our house in east Texas after midnight. Passed thru DFW area much earlier.
But if the “ weather” mainly effected Southwest Airlines, that does not sound like the weather.
After watching vids of SAMs in action I can’t help but notice NO streak of light. Pretty much all of them leave a trail of smoke back to the launcher until the motor burns out though.
“There is no obvious. There’s just your imagination.
That’s a fine emulation of the left’s favorite dismissal; if you disagree based on inconvenient facts, its proof of you not having an argument.
No commercial airliner with that degree of damage ( the CIA video showed not a missile but an internal fuel tank explosion blowing the nose off the aircraft) is capable of then climbing 3000ft.
“What evidence were they concealing from the NTSB?”
Terrorist attack or more likely, a US Navy vessel accidentally shooting down a civilian airliner just off our eastern coast.
“I saw what you did there. See your local planetarium staff on how reliable are eyewitness reports of aerial phenomena.”
One eyewitness account may indeed be imagined. Multiple eyewitness accounts by people who neither know each other and are at different locations lends greater credibility. Add to that the CIA’s patently false ‘explanation’ and the smell of something really foul becomes the simplest explanation that fits the facts. Top off that with the then perception that no US Agency would be more skilled at creating a false narrative and you have the ‘cherry’ on that pile of excrement.
Lets go Brandon.
Art Deco:
NTSB started the investigation but the FBI took over.
NTSB started the investigation but the FBI took over.
You all keep asserting this, without references. The agency with the skill set to reconstruct an aviation mishap is the NTSB. The report is issued by the NTSB. So what is it in your mind, the NTSB conducted a phantom investigation and took dictation from the FBI? (Which, per contemporary news reports, was taking statements of people who thought they saw something on the ground).
That’s a fine emulation of the left’s favorite dismissal;
It’s nothing of the kind. You made an assertion that is false.
Terrorist attack or more likely, a US Navy vessel accidentally shooting down a civilian airliner just off our eastern coast.
Again, that’s your imagination at work. The people with the skill set to reconstruct the event work for the NTSB, not the FBI or the CIA.
Add to that the CIA’s patently false ‘explanation’
Again, the report was issued by the NTSB.
One eyewitness account may indeed be imagined. Multiple eyewitness accounts by people who neither know each other and are at different locations lends greater credibility.
It’s an aerial phenomenon. They see ‘something’, but they do not necessarily know what they are seeing. See the UFO craze that ran on for 30+ years (and what your local planetarium staff had to say about it).
So why fib? If it were some clown with a missile, the feds would have had to blame the Tea Party,
The crash occurred in 1996. There would be no Tea Party for another 13 years.
@ physicsguy, 3:08PM said: “the SWA employees using work-to-rule strategy. I had never heard of that before, ”
I saw a similar tactic discussed amongst police officers (barred from work actions by law); they called it “super cop”. Basically, every assignment given a patrol officer would be handled exactly as stated in department publications. The “routine” residential burglary that usually took 30-45 minutes at the scene getting victim information, listing of loss, documentation of entry means became a major crime scene with technicians to collect evidence and seek fingerprints, a canvass of the neighborhood for witnesses, documenting which homes contacted, results and written statements from witnesses. All this took hours. And calls would back up until gridlock occurred. An alternative to “blue flu” where actual sick leave was expended, leave which might actually be needed sometime down the road.
It was not deployed and the guy telling me about it said the raises attained were well received.
The problem with the official cause of the TWA crash was that all Boeing aircraft fuel tanks and systems are alike. The configuration of the fuel tanks and system on TWA 810 was no different than on thousands of Boeing aircraft at various times and places. So, the question is why had there never been a previous explosion of this sort? I was retired when this happened, but I knew from many years of experience on Boeing aircraft that the NTSB’s conclusion was reaching for an explanation that was highly improbable.
The aircraft fuselage was torn on one side as if something like a missile had cut through it. Put that together with the improbable conclusion of the NTSB and you can see why there is controversy.
I have my own improbable theory. It was a one off accident. Ever seen a small meteorite arcing over the horizon? It looks like it is going up, when it is actually falling. A tiny meteorite might have impacted the side of the aircraft as it descended into the ocean, where it is buried deep in the ocean floor. Crazy? Yep, but no less improbable than the NTSB conclusion. 🙂
“work-to-rule” is what the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers call it too. Everything exactly by the book and the whole book to be safe.
I had a chance to work with a fellow who was in the Navy at that time. He was an electronics officer who sat in the back seat of planes launched off a carrier. His explanation was pilot error in Flight 800. Tragic error. The planes electronic identification was on the wrong channel, the flight track was off, and the pilots didn’t respond when hailed on the radio by the naval vessel. That was only 5 years after 9/11. Get too close without responding, and you’re a threat that needs to be neutralized. We shot the plane down and hid the evidence.
Working “by the book.” We did it for a few days early in my career. I hated it. But it does slow things to a crawl. The FAA reg called for taxiing at no faster than a man can walk at a brisk pace. Ridiculous on big airports where you have to taxi a mile or more to the runway. Fly the planned route, never taking direct vectors or trying to slice a little time off the schedule. Fly the complete approach at regulation speed rather than taking an abbreviated approach and keeping the speed up. Insist that every log item be repaired before taking the aircraft. Just a few of the work by the book tactics.
Inside info some might not want to see. The regs are written for operations in the worst weather conditions. When the weather is good and traffic allows, there are many shortcuts that can be safely taken hat save time and fuel. And knowing when to take the shortcuts is why the Captains are paid the big bucks.
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
I have a hard time with the whole shot down by the Navy scenario. I don’t believe a missile would strike the target unless it was an inert training round or the proximity fusing failed.
Notice the proximity fusing and the Phantom is already gushing flame.
I think you have to be close enough to the launcher to see the rocket exhaust but even when you can’t see the flame you can see the smoke go all the way to the launcher.
Edit: Shoot! those links didn’t work. you have scroll to the correct pictures.
This fellow, a current airline pilot for AA, has reported on the SWA situation today. He cites a number of reasons that led to this outcome. I will add that he is noted for his factual reporting. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kO39nIcuPhQ
Have no idea whether or not the current trend is back toward annular (makes little sense to waste energy blowing stuff forwards or backwards in shoot down scenario — getting alongside or up the tailpipe is the missile’s job) fragmentation cf. chopping you in half with a nifty explosively formed ring
Warp Speed made sense for cohorts at high risk. For most people, it not only does not make sense, but data from Spain, India, Israel, Britain, Sweden, and America, too, is that it was/is a poor choice for the majority of the population, including people… persons with comorbidities correlated with age. The goal is immunity, not vaccination, where the naturally-derived former has been observed to be both more robust and durable, and the latter a cause for excess adverse events and forward-looking risk. Planned parent/hood was neither an exclusive nor a good Choice. And masks, on the science, and physics, have limited utility to control droplet spread when following strict protocol, and random effect, at best, to control other transmission modes (and no source control). People at risk should either isolate or wear respirators with protective clothing, and be attended to by people who have seroconverted.
It was just a “coincidence” that the SW problems happened right after they announced they would buckle under the mandate.
Just like it was a “coincidence” that Covid started right where there was a virus lab.
Arama at Red State makes this note, which the SWA honchoes don’t seem to realize with their mandating.
This push for vaccine mandates was accelerated after Joe Biden said at the beginning of September that he would be enacting vaccine requirements for all businesses that did federal contracting and he would impose an OSHA rule on all private businesses with more than 100 employees (although that rule hasn’t formally gone into effect yet — more Biden smoke and mirrors).
That the airlines and Amtrak (see RS) are imposing these unwritten (and probably illegal) mandates at the beginning of the holiday season, which is a major flight window for huge numbers of passengers, is psychotically insane.
@ Rufus > “Herb Kelleher is likely spinning in his grave.”
Just like Churchill and Thatcher (in the Open Thread).
@ Milwaukee > “For years Southwest Airlines was one of the few non-union airlines. Pilots, flight attendants, baggage handlers, mechanics, the lot of them were non-union. They attracted a certain type of workers. That independence is hard to eradicate. Don’t hire a bunch of independent thinkers, who defy national trends, and expect them to not be independent thinkers.”
It looks like their union is actually doing what it’s supposed to: serving their members.
In addition, he quotes Sundance at Conservative Treehouse on the broader implications of the stoppages at SWA and other transportation companies.
As everyone by now knows, truckers, port employees, and others necessary to the movement of essential goods are also in short supply, causing escalating disruption and shortages for all sorts of materials. This may be part of a growing resistance movement that the corporate media will never acknowledge. Sundance sums it up:
Remember, almost all of these leftists and elite-minded communists who now operate as Democrats have no capacity for self-sufficiency. If the working class stops picking up their trash; stops mowing their lawns, shopping for them, doing their cleaning and essentially facilitating their lives, this entire group of people cannot function.
Are we watching the end of the beginning?
Sundance’s post deserves its own comment. Remember, he always looks closely at how and why the trees make a forest.
People inside Southwest Airlines are speaking out carefully and pointing out why there are so many flight disruptions. Essentially, the background issues are what were discussed earlier. Pilots are pushing back against vaccine mandates; and if you think about the curriculum vitae of a typical pilot, it makes sense.
A big percentage of commercial airline pilots are former military pilots. That group of people carry a strong disposition toward the principles of patriotism, service, liberty and freedom.
It is a simple truism that upsets leftists, but it makes sense for this specifically skilled workforce group to be the tip of the push back spear.
Alex Berenson provides some background details after being contacted by a Southwest pilot: “The pilot emailed following the first Southwest post today (and provided his SWA ID to prove his identity). He asked that I paraphrase the email.
…
As we previously outlined, this is not about vaccines per se’, this is more about a slippery slope of having the government dictate how you can live your life and earn a living.
If they can force you to have a medical procedure, and then carry documentation of that procedure in order to work… why can’t they force you to get a small electronic implant of your identification, which would coincidentally include your medical authorizations for work?
It’s just a metal detector…. it’s just taking off your shoes… it’s just wearing a mask…. it’s just a vaccination….. it’s just a COVID passport… it’s always, “just”.
Factually I do not believe a federal mandate for a vaccine is even possible or legal. It appears to me that all of Biden’s threats in this regard are simply that, threats.
The purpose of the threat is to push people to take the vaccine without actually attempting a legal federal mandate; and that approach so far has been successful. However, now they are going to encounter the more hard-core groups who will not concede liberty or freedom to a federal mandate.
It is obvious Anthony Fauci also knows a federal mandate will lose in court when challenged. The fact that Fauci brings up state vaccination requirements for education, as examples of historically forced vaccinations is both a strawman argument and structurally false. There has never been a FEDERAL mandate for any vaccination. All the vaccinations Fauci discusses (ex. his kids) were state mandates. Each state also has a different set of standards and laws for children and vaccines. There is nothing federal.
The federal government is attempting to set up a federal work authorization standard for private businesses. Non compliance means you cannot work, or you lose your existing job if your employer goes along with the government demand. THAT alone should alarm everyone.
There is a particularly enraging irony in that Joe Biden’s federal DOJ and Dept of Labor do not enforce employment eligibility authorization for illegal aliens based on legal status, while at the same time the Biden Dept. of Labor is putting OSHA in charge of a federal policy that will enforce vaccination requirements. Go figure.
All of the federal exemptions essentially undermine the “national health emergency” argument, because if there really was such a public health emergency, there would be no exemptions at all. The application of the executive order undermines the actual cornerstone of the executive order itself. It cannot withstand scrutiny…. hence, Biden doesn’t actually put any rules or regulations into writing because that gives lawsuits something specific to file injunctions against.
In the interim, as the freedom coalition digs in to mount a patriotic challenge, the authoritarian attempt of the federal government, the rebellious alliance is hitting back in unique ways as noted by the Southwest Airline pilots and Air Traffic Controllers, both groups hold a significant military service record.
Another group who are pushing back against the federal effort are local law enforcement. Again, another private sector group that has a heavy percentage of former military service members amid the ranks.
And then the conclusion that Lifson quoted.
A thought-provoking comment: “Who in their right mind would want to fly on a plane with a vaxxed pilot, co-pilot and staff?
My friend’s sister fell over and died 4 days after getting the poison injection. She walked out her front door, fell to the ground, and died. That fast with no warning.”
More of a similar anecdotal quality, but it’s not like there haven’t been bad reactions for a lot of people, and no reason pilots should be exempt.
I left out some of the important parts because they can’t be copied in text.
But go there for the memes if nothing else.
Let’s go, Brandon!
The Peanut Planes are waiting for you.
The commenters at Alex Berenson’s post (h/t lee) have thoughts.
And links to sites that are definitely not pro-vaxx, but I don’t see any reason to doubt their “news” as opposed to opinion; at least I can tell them apart, unlike the NYT.
Today, he signed an executive order banning vaccine mandates by any entity in the state. This would hit corporations that have begun to follow federal guidelines to mandate vaccines for all their employees. And though an official rule from OSHA has yet to materialize as threatened, Abbott’s move is in direct defiance of Joe Biden.
…
perhaps this move by Abbott is actually a lifeline worked out via back channels? Southwest Airlines, which has already faced a lawsuit over the mandate, can now claim their hands are tied and lift the requirements. That gets air and maintenance crews back to work — while allowing the airline to somewhat save face for its terrible decision to follow Joe Biden’s lead.
We’ll have to wait and see how this shakes out. Southwest Airlines could decide to simply ignore the directive or to fight it in court, at which point their position would be clearly staked and the fight would escalate. They’d certainly pay a large consumer and employee price for such a move, but if they want to be that stupid, it’s their company. I doubt they go that route, though.
For Abbott’s part, Republican governors continue to lead the fight against COVID tyranny. Without them holding the line, who knows where we’d be as a nation. These mandates are ridiculous from a standpoint of liberty but are also completely unnecessary from a scientific standpoint. Everyone spreads COVID. There is no need to “protect” vaccinated employees from their unvaccinated counterparts via force.
Abbott’s order is already eliciting gnashing of teeth from the left, and that’s as good a sign as any that it was the right move.
@AesopFan:
Interesting the Aspirin thing. I’ve read wild speculation that a chunk of low dose Aspirin’s long term positive benefits derive directly from it causing the notorious GI microbleeds — phlebotomy on the installment plan.
Christina Pushaw, press secretary for Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, delivered reality checks to Dems and the media and then weighed in on the photo:
“Is this a new device to measure storm winds amid all these severe weather issues?”
To which some Tweeter replied: “Yes, new device to measure Hurricane Brandon!”
One thing to keep in mind is that there seems to be some evidence of negative side effects of esp the mRNA vaccines, and esp of heart issues, where otherwise very healthy people just fall over dead with little or no advanced warning. The head Army flight surgeon for one large military base has grounded any flight crew who are vaccinated, until their heart is checked out with a special MRI test. The justification for this is essentially that they cannot afford to risk the lives entrusted to these people if their hearts were to stop when they were in critical situations , such as when they are the pilot in charge. The death toll from one crash caused by such a heart attack could potentially kill more people than the entire number of active military service members lost so far to COVID-19 (<20, out of roughly 1.6 millions).
A lot of these SWA pilots are ex military, are still connected to the military grape vine, and know of this. Except that instead of risking 20 or so soldiers if the pilot in charged died at the stick, they risk potentially hundreds.
I’m late to the game, but:
One can disagree with any particular conclusion, without endorsing others.
The reason I’ve never believed that TWA 800 was shot down by some Navy missile test is simple. A) When the Navy, or Air Force, is conducting such tests, they announce it in advance and put out a NOTAM (Notice To Airmen) warning pilots to stay away.
B) The Navy and Air Force have proving grounds where they conduct such tests. None of those testing areas are anywhere near the most heavily used international civilian flight corridor (for obvious reasons).
C) It happened on Sunday night. The armed forces of the United States would never, ever, run a missile test on Sunday night. Any such test would have civilians from the relevant company on hand, and those guys don’t work on Sunday night. One could come up with a reason to do it at night, but the night that they would never do it is Sunday. It’s inconvenient.
Our naval SAM have warheads of about 150 pounds. Part of the reason is that a contact hit cannot be guaranteed and the computing may say “this is as close as I can get so I’ll explode then” and not be really close. So they need some power. A warhead that size hitting a fat, slow, not-maneuvering liner–contact hit–would blow it to tin foil strips.
Those things are big and expensive. If a ship goes out with twenty of them and comes back one short, it’s going to be a really big deal. The next guy who signs for the ship will not sign for twenty SAM if there are only nineteen. There’s no hiding the paper work in the chain of custody from factory into the storage to the ship. So replacing one is not going to go unremarked. And the crew….
The feds say no passengers had shrapnel wounds. This, presumably, proves no bomb/missile. But a MANPAD hitting, say, the cargo bay is going to have its frags absorbed. Ditto, say, wing root, landing gear, etc. And this presumes the feds aren’t lying.
As to UFO. Some time back the AF said they’d cleared 96% of unexplained reports by connecting them to aircraft, presumably mostly the experimental types like the F117 in its development phase, or others. IOW there was SOMETHING out there. Wasn’t nothing and it wasn’t swamp gas.
re: my comment on TWA flt 800
I don’t have a theory that I’m pushing on the cause of the explosion (although I do find Cashill to be credible on that and in general). The CIA did come up with the bizarre climb video. Airplanes with the front blown off do not climb over 3000 feet. Period. That was the reason for my comment. Regardless of what caused the explosion that tore up the plane, the CIA explanation of what happened was ridiculous. As was SWA’s claim about the weather this weekend.
Yes, Richard. How are you going to keep the crew of a Navy ship from talking? Everyone on board, a minimum of 90 people, will have known that the ship launched a missile. Even if a sailor is in the bilges he’s going to hear it. One of them is going to yield to temptation and email some reporter.
The Iranians, who have much greater control over the lives of their military men, couldn’t keep the truth of how they shot down an airliner under wraps last year. That would have been initially a smaller number–12 or so on the missile crew. That number grows fast, though, as word of the crash gets out, and other crews say, well, it wasn’t us . . . .
Stan,
Do we have a body of knowledge that conclusively proves that 747s cannot climb 3000 feet when damaged so? I doubt it. You can get lost in YouTube videos explaing odd aircraft behavior before crashes. As far as I know this has only happened once, and there are plenty of wind tunnel facilities where it could be tested.
And as Art Deco has pointed out, the CIA produced an animation. Perhaps they had the top animation people in government at the time. But it does not lead from “made a video” to “made a conclusion and forced it back down the line.” The NTSB may be discreet–if any agency involved would be, it would be NTSB. But now we’re adding more layers of folks who know the hidden truth.
I don’t know what happened. But I find it very difficult to believe that so many people could keep secret what was a very unlikely event–a Navy missile strike.
Now if you say, it was a man-portable missile, well. Could be; perhaps some guy picked one up on an overseas tour and managed to smuggle it back. Then he’s out on a boat with friends and wants to show off. Considering blowback, it’s a damn dangerous move, but “Hold my beer!”
The maximum range of a Stinger is 4 km. The maximum altitude is 3.5 km. The TWA jet was at least 4.5 km above the surface, so that exceeds the range of a Stinger, even if fired at the optimum distance. Yes, the warhead has a lethal range. But it’s nowhere near a full kilometer. So, it wasn’t a Stinger unless guy on boat has a really, really tall ladder.
Gordon Scot: “Yes, Richard. How are you going to keep the crew of a Navy ship from talking?”
Exactly. That’s why I have ruled out a mistake missile launch by the Navy. By now, someone in the crew would have talked Unless, of course, the Clinton Mafia had them all killed. 🙂 A death bed confession, someone needs money and sells their story to the Enquirer, or just an act of conscience. The story would have come out by now.
The sudden climb after the airplane was hit by something can be explained by the fact that the fuselage didn’t fall apart immediately. Whatever hit the plane made a cut in the fuselage that led to eventual separation as the pilots tried to gain altitude. They knew they had an emergency of some sort when the airplane was hit. Altitude is your friend i n an emergency. The natural instinct is to climb if possible. It was their last act as the fuselage split apart shortly after the climb and began its plunge to the water. At least that’s my theory. What hit the airplane remains the mystery.
The fuel tank explosion theory advanced by the NTSB is, as I mentioned earlier, a dubious one because the cause cited had existed in Boeing airplanes many times in many places before. Yet there wee no explosions in those cases. Was a fuel tank explosion a one off? A one in a million event? Possible. IMO, the real cause is unknown and will probably remain that way. The NTSB could not come o that conclusion because it would look bad. So here we are.
I might mention that a friend from my airline days, Captain Dick Russell, did a lot of investigation of the accident. He was quite vocal in his criticism of the NTSB and FBI. Which got him a visit from the FBI. That was probably the earliest example I can think of when a government agency went to work to censor/silence a citizen. A harbinger of things to come.
SWA bosses declined to take Abbot’s face-saving life-line.
They are afraid, or convinced, or psychotic.
There is no legal vaccine order until the courts are done.
However, the precedent at SCOTUS is pretty much letting the government do what it wants if Democrats are pushing it.
Biden may well be FDR 2.0, but only the bad parts (there were a few good parts, but mostly the New Deal set the stage for the now very evident bad parts).
but mostly the New Deal set the stage for the now very evident bad parts)
The capitulation of the courts during the period running from 1937 to 1942 is salient today.
Recall that during the period running from 1933 to 1940, federal spending bounced around 6.5% of gross domestic product and no budget deficits exceeded 4% of gross domestic product. They were rather more circumspect in this realm than any post-war administration. The most troublesome thing done was the passage of the National Industrial Recovery Act, which the federal courts annulled as a violation of the non-delegation principle. The next was the attempt, beginning in 1938, to enforce an absurdly high minimum wage (given nominal employee compensation per worker at the time, the value fixed in federal legislation would be the equivalent of a $25 an hour minimum today). The third was the tangled web of production controls and cartels in the agriculture sector
I’m amazed at the number of aerospace engineers who hang out here.
That was only 5 years after 9/11. Get too close without responding, and you’re a threat that needs to be neutralized. We shot the plane down and hid the evidence.
The flight occurred five years prior to 9/11.
National Review argues:
______________________________
Southwest’s problems the past few days were not caused by imposition of a vaccine mandate. They seem to be the consequence of a long series of business decisions in response to the pandemic recovery that didn’t work out as well as planned, with bad weather mixed in for good measure.
I’m convinced art deco is the smartest and most cultvated man in the world.
And he’s a sexy, sexy guy who dances well.
So, the question is why had there never been a previous explosion of this sort?
It’s a low probability event.
Several episodes are listed in Wikipedia.
What’s your contention, that the NTSB doesn’t know its business or that the NTSB is lying?
I’m convinced art deco is the smartest and most cultvated man in the world.
I’m convinced you’re a twerp. You’re all making categorical statements about an event which requires scores of people months to investigate (actually, years in this case). You expect no counterpoint just why?
Gordon Scott. I meant the usual naval SAM has a lethal range. Considerably more than a 155mm HE round. The MANPAD must hit or come extremely close with its 6-7lb warhead.
I’d be interested in some clown getting hold of maybe the latest Sov MANPAD, or perhaps–it was the Redeye when I was in and so I’m not in a position to know–the capabilities have been upgraded. Looking at some other MANPADs, it seems TWA 800 might have been within their envelope, or at the edge.
The guys who blew up AirIndia eleven years earlier weren’t horsing around for grins. 350 people killed and it took the Canadians twenty years and a boatload of money to figure out who screwed up.
But, as I say, there are two items which got my attention. The optical delusion, if you will of streaks going up…. And the three separate and contradictory explanations for the explosive residue. Clearly, one would have been satisfactory–the one about leftovers from shuttling troops to and from Gulf I five years earlier. Implausible but not refutable.
And one note–how can you tell how accurate it is and you can’t believe any research will prove or disprove it: No 747 was taken out of service to fix the asserted problem. True? Not true? Not necessary?
In a sense, it’s like the dems and vote fraud: Nothing says complete honesty like endless efforts to hide evidence of complete honesty.
The 1993 attempt at the WTC took some organizing.
The guys who blew up AirIndia eleven years earlier weren’t horsing around for grins. 350 people killed and it took the Canadians twenty years and a boatload of money to figure out who screwed up.
The commission of inquiry on the subject was in session for four years.
It was understood right away the plane had been bombed.
Art Deco: “It’s a low probability event.
Several episodes are listed in Wikipedia.
What’s your contention, that the NTSB doesn’t know its business or that the NTSB is lying?”
“The NTSB concluded that the most likely source of sufficient voltage to cause ignition was a short from damaged wiring, or within electrical components of the FQIS. As not all components and wiring were recovered, pinpointing the source of the necessary voltage was not possible.”
The NTSB recommendation from this accident was for inert gas to be pumped into nearly empty tanks. This fix was too expensive for existing aircraft. So, it was implemented on new aircraft only. Some wiring inspections were done on existing aircraft, but there was never another such fuel tank explosion that I’m aware of. If there had been ,it could be cause to ground the airplanes as unsafe. The NTSB never said they were certain that they knew what caused the accident. They know their stuff, butt his case mystified most people who know Boeing airliners and the way they are built. A close friend was co-pilot on a 747 that lost its cargo door enroute to Auckland from Honolulu. It resulted in an explosive decompression that tore a hole in the side of the plan and damaged both engines on the starboard side. Some passengers were sucked out of the aircraft during the decompression. That the fuselage stayed in one piece is a testament to the ruggedness of Boeing air frames.
My friend knew the B-747 well. He and I discussed the TWA accident and he believed the NTSB had to find a cause and the fuel tank explosion was the only straw they could grasp.
I have an opinion informed by 38 years experience in aviation. You don’t agree. Then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I have an opinion informed by 38 years experience in aviation. You don’t agree. Then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
My opinion is that the agency which spends its time reconstructing aviation accidents has the most informed opinion. This conversation began with someone on 11 October at 1:54 pm insisting that the NTSB’s explanation was ‘not possible’, which was followed by somewhat less categorical remarks by various other characters.
Art Deco. Yes, the bombing was immediately understood. But the question of how it got there, who missed it, etc. was a very long time figuring out.
It figures, imo, in why the CASB agreed on Arrowair 1285 that it was icing–five voted for iccing against four for onboard disabling incident. On a day when no other aircraft reported icing. Got 250 of our guys killed coming out of Gander. So the Canadians in charge of keeping bombs off aircraft had already had a bad year and fudging the result wasn’t going to bring our guys back.
Plus some clown in DC wanted to seal the records for seventy years.
Lots of ways to look shifty, and if it’s unnecessary….
Leave a Reply
HTML tags allowed in your
comment: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>
Neo– according to Liberty Beacon, a lot of airline pilots are former military:
“Airline pilots have more leverage than most workers because it takes so long to train them. Most – some estimate 80% of Southwest’s pilots – come out of the military. That’s why former military and commercial pilot and Congressional candidate Buzz Patterson was contemptuous of a suggestion that replavements [sic] could be found.”
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/southwest-airlines-forced-to-cancel-1800-flights-a-day-after-pilots-union-filed-for-restraining-order-on-vaxx-mandate/
There is a copy of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association’s motion for a restraining order at the link.
When the explanation fails to account for the facts we know, the explanation is likely wrong. When the CIA said that TWA Flt 800 had an internal explosion which tore off the front of the plane and the plane then CLIMBED over 3000 feet, every person with the slightest knowledge of flying knew it was bullsh*t. Not possible.
The SWA official explanation for all the cancellations yesterday similarly fails the smell test. Airline folks are laughing at it.
There are certain people (easily identified) who have been lying to us for years on every single issue. Their statements should never be taken as true. The statements of people they strong arm and bully should never be taken as true. The reporting of their propagandists should never be regarded as fact.
Politics has infected everything. And the people on the left lie. About everything. Always.
For a good many years, the FDA approval was required for everything more complex than breathing. And every ad for prescription drugs comes with a list of horrifying possible side effects, some of which, “may have occurred”.
And now the rushed, hurried, warp speed, emergency false vaxxes are not subject to lengthy tests, they are also certified by ommission to have no side effects. Except the ones that do happen which, by omission, don’t happen.
And people are skeptical….
FWIW
https://twitter.com/AllegianceTL/status/1447381142261403650
https://thedcpatriot.com/exclusive-southwest-employee-speaks-out/
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-a-southwest-airlines-pilot/comments
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Zx8V7kHjy8JS/
More grist.
Plus a stirring defense of freedom by a fellow dressed as an airline pilot.
I wonder if NY will requisition Natl Guard for commercial airlines like they did for healthcare worker replacement?
According to this, the SW Air flight cancellations may be due to
1) pilots notified their jobs are gone as of Nov unless vaxxed
2) pilots using their banked vacation time before it’s lost
https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1447533987770023941
For years Southwest Airlines was one of the few non-union airlines. Pilots, flight attendants, baggage handlers, mechanics, the lot of them were non-union. They attracted a certain type of workers. That independence is hard to eradicate. Don’t hire a bunch of independent thinkers, who defy national trends, and expect them to not be independent thinkers.
Say has anybody seen anything on who paid for the bricks that were unloaded in riot sites last summer? Just asking for my friend Brandon. Let’s go Brandon.
lee’s links are interesting, especially the SWA employees using work-to-rule strategy. I had never heard of that before, but given the FAA’s myriad regulations I can see how that could have a devastating effect.
Apropos of SWA pilots being former military: here’s a video of a Southwest captain and Air Force veteran whose father, an Air Force colonel, was killed over Laos in 1967. The father’s remains were identified in 2019, and the son was given the honor of flying his dad back to Dallas.
What’s noteworthy is the respect shown by the SWA ground employees and the Dallas police as well as the Air Force honor guard as the casket is carried from the plane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54W22gT7-R8&ab_channel=VASAviation-
When the CIA said that TWA Flt 800 had an internal explosion which tore off the front of the plane and the plane then CLIMBED over 3000 feet, every person with the slightest knowledge of flying knew it was bullsh*t. Not possible.
It’s the National Transportation Safety Board which investigates aviation accidents.
Art Deco–
I think stan @1:54 mentioned the CIA because the CIA did make a notorious video animation of the last moments of TWA 800. Jack Cashill said in 2009, “Why the CIA was involved in a domestic airplane ‘accident’ is anyone’s guess. The media never bothered to ask. . . . A key animation sequence in the CIA video showed not a missile but an internal fuel tank explosion blowing the nose off the aircraft. According to the video’s narration, TWA 800 then ‘pitched up abruptly and climbed several thousand feet from its last recorded altitude of about 13,800 feet to a maximum altitude of about 17,000 feet.'”
http://www.cashill.com/archive/twa800/reopenTWA800.htm
Here’s the CIA-produced video as shown in a NatGeo documentary about TWA 800:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbaqJNPypaU&ab_channel=AviationLand
This:
https://thedcpatriot.com/exclusive-southwest-whistleblower-reveals-internal-documents-for-covid-19-exemptions-complete-violations-of-title-vii/
is purported to be the three page form Southwest Employees must file to claim a religious exemption from a vaccine against the COVID-19 virus. If it is accurate it seems like a slam dunk legal case against the company.
Herb Kelleher is likely spinning in his grave. I LUV’ed SWA under Herb’s tenure. Still a lot of wonderful employees there, but it ain’t what it used to be.
No, no, it’s today’s geomagnetic storm caused by the solar mass ejection that is projected to interrupt satellite communications, GPS accuracy, and quite possibly a mass extinction event at midday.
https://tinyurl.com/8zu6pmau
Contrary to normal practice, the FBI took command and control of the TWA Flt. 800 investigation with the NTSB in a secondary role. One might assume that the NTSB did all of crash analysis, but even there the FBI inserted itself in a few areas such as explosive residue analysis. The bullsh_t CIA produced spontaneous explosion scenario was the final “insult to injury” of the whole sordid mess.
I think stan @1:54 mentioned the CIA because the CIA did make a notorious video
Why would National Geographic rely on the CIA to produce animations for their documentaries? Who has attributed their animation to the CIA?
What’s your contention, that the NTSB concocted a phony report?
Contrary to normal practice, the FBI took command and control of the TWA Flt. 800 investigation with the NTSB in a secondary role. One might assume that the NTSB did all of crash analysis, but even there the FBI inserted itself in a few areas such as explosive residue analysis. The bullsh_t CIA produced spontaneous explosion scenario was the final “insult to injury” of the whole sordid mess.
You mean the NTSB does the ‘crash analysis’, but somehow the conclusion is composed by an agency with no relevant expertise and we all know this from what source?
Jack Cashill said in 2009, “Why the CIA was involved in a domestic airplane ‘accident’ is anyone’s guess. The media never bothered to ask. . .
Why do you take what Jack Cashill says at face value?
I hope to see much more mass disobediance of ‘mandates’.
That the FBI and CIA were involved and controlled the investigation of an airline ‘accident’ should tell you all you need to know regarding the veracity of the official story. Lies all the way down.
Australia and Lithuania are a preview of the next stage that the Left has planned for us.
BTW, has anyone else noted that Australia’s top ‘health’ official and Chicago Mayor Lightfoot have both now publicly stated that the public needs to show obediance to “The New World Order”?
That the FBI and CIA were involved and controlled the investigation of an airline ‘accident’ should tell you all you need to know regarding the veracity of the official story. Lies all the way down.
Except you keep asserting they ‘controlled’ the investigation without telling me what your source is other than someone mentioning Jack Cashill. Cashill’s business model is selling books where he tells you some story he assures you has been heretofore concealed by malevolent individuals. AFAICT, the only primary sources in his bibliography would be the NTSB report itself and some URLs. And he has no background in aerospace engineering which would allow him some critical engagement with the material.
“has anyone else noted that Australia’s top ‘health’ official and Chicago Mayor Lightfoot have both now publicly stated that the public needs to show obediance to “The New World Order”?”
We’ve ALWAYS been at war with EastAsia.
Art Deco,
I’ve seen and read many presentations on the TWA crash of varying quality and expertise. It is well known by everybody who’s looked at it, that the FBI and CIA were involved. One moderately shocking fact that no one disputes is that there were pieces of aircraft with possible residue on them that were removed from the NTSB’s custody and were purportedly analyzed for explosives only by the FBI.
Also, you are correct to assume that there was only one official explanation of the crash and it is in the NTSB report. That does not preempt the fact that the CIA created an expensively produced crash explanation with video and presented it to the media with great fanfare, well before the NTSB came to any official conclusions.
Wikipedia:
You can look through the references if you wish.
Art Deco:
My contention was simply that stan@1:54 was not incorrect in referring to the CIA’s involvement in the TWA postmortem. I don’t know where you get the notion that I think the NTSB “concocted a phony report.” I had downloaded the NTSB’s 1996 341-page PDF on TWA 800 some years ago and just called it back up. There is a section beginning on page 248 subtitled “Central Intelligence Agency Review of the Witness Data” that refers to the CIA video in the running text and footnote 518. The NTSB states on that page that “Early in the investigation, at the FBI?s request, the CIA reviewed data regarding the TWA flight 800 accident (including witness reports and information; FDR, CVR, ATC, and radar data; and infrared sensor information from a U.S. satellite) to determine if the streak of light reported by many of the witnesses might have been a missile.” Footnote 518 reads “For additional information, see the CIA video, ?TWA Flight 800: What did the witnesses see?,? first shown at the November 18, 1997, FBI press conference.”
Now why the FBI and CIA were involved so intensively in the investigation is another question, but the NTSB did note their involvement.
Now why the FBI and CIA were involved so intensively in the investigation is another question, but the NTSB did note their involvement.
I saw what you did there. It says the FBI asked the CIA to ‘review data’, which is not a statement which indicates ‘intensive’ involvement. No clue why they would subcontract functions to the CIA rather than subdivisions of the Air Force. The CIA does nothing well. Note, it does not make reference to data that might be gleaned from the plane itself.
It is well known by everybody who’s looked at it, that the FBI and CIA were involved.
Repair to your original remarks. You said ‘controlled’.
I read somewhere that the ~2,000 Southwest flights cancelled over the weekend represented about 30% of all Soutwest flights, and that the continuation today represents about 10%.
What is fascinating to watch is the Establishment Media trying to pretend it isn’t happening by mentioning the event as little as possible, and by limiting the news-item coverage to the ‘man on the tarmac’ human-interest stories – the poor chap that missed his reunion, and so forth. There are mentions of bad weather that didn’t exist as well.
But no reporter is wondering out loud how Southwestern could have forgotten to arrange for pilots for 30% of their flights, or what else may have taken place to explain the outage. When it comes to reporting on that, everyone wants to be the last one in line.
I made reservations on Southwest for mid November. It will be interesting to see if this is resolved by then. I am guessing yes.
Nelson DeMille wrote a fun novel about TWA 800. He later wrote that he could not figure out how to end it. His son suggested that he have all the parties meet at the World Trade Center on September 11,2001. That’s how it ends.
Neo probably predicted this: “Southwest Airlines Offering Free Flights To All Passengers Who Are Vaccinated And Can Fly A Plane.”
“‘The requirements to take advantage of these incredible savings are simple,’ said Southwest CEO Bob Southwest to a crowd of customers who have been stuck at the airport all weekend and were frothing at the mouth in anger. ‘Show us proof of vaccination against COVID-19 and promise us you know how [to] fly commercial airliners, and your flight is on us.’ The CEO then mentioned other skills that were not required, but beneficial: Experience calming herds of rabid, sleepless passengers, expertise in flying through mysterious, invisible weather events, and the ability to land the plane.”
https://babylonbee.com/news/southwest-airlines-offering-free-flights-to-all-passengers-who-are-vaccinated-and-can-fly-a-plane
Art + Deco,
“No clue why they would subcontract functions to the CIA rather than subdivisions of the Air Force. The CIA does nothing well.”
You have no clue because you’re straining not to acknowledge the obvious. Multiple witnesses to the missile (streak of light rising from sea level and striking the plane). Gravely damaged plane performing an impossible 3000 ft. climb. Come on, man!
Nor is it true that the CIA does nothing well. They have no peers when it comes to concealing hard evidence. Just as the NSA has no peer in concealing communications it deems best left unknown. When the 3 letter agencies worked for America that was understandable but that was long ago. Defund and disband them all. Long past time for it. Plow the weeds under and plant anew.
You have no clue because you’re straining not to acknowledge the obvious.
There is no obvious. There’s just your imagination.
They have no peers when it comes to concealing hard evidence.
What evidence were they concealing from the NTSB?
Multiple witnesses to the missile (streak
I saw what you did there. See your local planetarium staff on how reliable are eyewitness reports of aerial phenomena.
I agree with Neo that we don’t know enough facts about the SWA situation. We just know that something extraordinary has happened, and it’s not weather. I’ve been warning since 9/30 when companies started rolling out the fed mandates en-masse that the results will not be pretty. If the pilots are using accumulated sick leave that will be revoked at time of termination on 12/8, then it’s not exactly a sick-out.
This will not all happen on 12/8. Many companies have picked 11/22 as their deadline, and most have basically encouraged refuseniks to leave voluntarily before that (probably to limit potential liability). My company hasn’t been completely clear on the threat part yet. I’ve asked whether they intend to terminate people “for cause” on 11/23, but have not been answered. A lot of employees’ actions depend on what happens to their benefits (401-K matching, unemployment eligibility, loss of accrued leave, etc.) depending on when and how they leave. And, of course, revealing company policies is usually a violation of non-disclosure agreements that can lead to legally justified termination for cause.
May God have mercy on us.
I flew yesterday afternoon from Atlanta to Hartford (Delta). No delays and very nice weather. And no apparent delays in the airport (although the TSA and airport people-not the airline people-were generally rude and unhelpful).
Just a data point.
Maybe the SW cancellations opened things up for the other airlines.
Couple of notes: There was some guy who was supposedly an expert in such things who claimed it was normal for people who see an aircraft explode to think they saw a “streak” going up toward it. Presumably this includes people other than flak gunners who got lucky. Like to know the controlled experiments.
The feds had three contradictory explanations for the explosive residue. Hint; Civil airliners are not to have explosive residue. It’s in the procedures manual. I figure they would have been better to stick with one improbable/implausible than add a couple of additional even dumber.
MANPADs are on the black market. Ours, the Stinger, has a warhead of almost seven pounds. Heck, everybody knows even the 81mm mortar’s HE head is ten pounds. A MANPAD would not blow up a big airliner. It would cause the a/c to blow up, a different scenario.
If, as reported, the centerline tank was not full, it would be fat city for a Stinger. And a Stinger is all-aspect, which is to say it doesn’t have to be homing on a not exhaust.
The round itself weighs 35 lbs and the launcher not much different. So you could take it out to the ocean in something not much bigger than a bass boat.
So why fib? If it were some clown with a missile, the feds would have had to blame the Tea Party, or else Clinton would have a problem on his hands involving whom to bomb.
One thing we know with absolute certainty regarding the SWA situation:
It wasn’t ‘weather.’
William Shatner’s adventure into space got put off due to weather.
Last night , Sunday night, there were strong wind storms that passed thru Texas. Hit our house in east Texas after midnight. Passed thru DFW area much earlier.
But if the “ weather” mainly effected Southwest Airlines, that does not sound like the weather.
After watching vids of SAMs in action I can’t help but notice NO streak of light. Pretty much all of them leave a trail of smoke back to the launcher until the motor burns out though.
TX Gov Abbott throws SW Air a lifeline.
https://gab.com/acapaaron/posts/107085822145054713
Art Deco,
What happened to your + sign?
“There is no obvious. There’s just your imagination.
That’s a fine emulation of the left’s favorite dismissal; if you disagree based on inconvenient facts, its proof of you not having an argument.
No commercial airliner with that degree of damage ( the CIA video showed not a missile but an internal fuel tank explosion blowing the nose off the aircraft) is capable of then climbing 3000ft.
“What evidence were they concealing from the NTSB?”
Terrorist attack or more likely, a US Navy vessel accidentally shooting down a civilian airliner just off our eastern coast.
“I saw what you did there. See your local planetarium staff on how reliable are eyewitness reports of aerial phenomena.”
One eyewitness account may indeed be imagined. Multiple eyewitness accounts by people who neither know each other and are at different locations lends greater credibility. Add to that the CIA’s patently false ‘explanation’ and the smell of something really foul becomes the simplest explanation that fits the facts. Top off that with the then perception that no US Agency would be more skilled at creating a false narrative and you have the ‘cherry’ on that pile of excrement.
Lets go Brandon.
Art Deco:
NTSB started the investigation but the FBI took over.
NTSB started the investigation but the FBI took over.
You all keep asserting this, without references. The agency with the skill set to reconstruct an aviation mishap is the NTSB. The report is issued by the NTSB. So what is it in your mind, the NTSB conducted a phantom investigation and took dictation from the FBI? (Which, per contemporary news reports, was taking statements of people who thought they saw something on the ground).
That’s a fine emulation of the left’s favorite dismissal;
It’s nothing of the kind. You made an assertion that is false.
Terrorist attack or more likely, a US Navy vessel accidentally shooting down a civilian airliner just off our eastern coast.
Again, that’s your imagination at work. The people with the skill set to reconstruct the event work for the NTSB, not the FBI or the CIA.
Add to that the CIA’s patently false ‘explanation’
Again, the report was issued by the NTSB.
One eyewitness account may indeed be imagined. Multiple eyewitness accounts by people who neither know each other and are at different locations lends greater credibility.
It’s an aerial phenomenon. They see ‘something’, but they do not necessarily know what they are seeing. See the UFO craze that ran on for 30+ years (and what your local planetarium staff had to say about it).
So why fib? If it were some clown with a missile, the feds would have had to blame the Tea Party,
The crash occurred in 1996. There would be no Tea Party for another 13 years.
@ physicsguy, 3:08PM said: “the SWA employees using work-to-rule strategy. I had never heard of that before, ”
I saw a similar tactic discussed amongst police officers (barred from work actions by law); they called it “super cop”. Basically, every assignment given a patrol officer would be handled exactly as stated in department publications. The “routine” residential burglary that usually took 30-45 minutes at the scene getting victim information, listing of loss, documentation of entry means became a major crime scene with technicians to collect evidence and seek fingerprints, a canvass of the neighborhood for witnesses, documenting which homes contacted, results and written statements from witnesses. All this took hours. And calls would back up until gridlock occurred. An alternative to “blue flu” where actual sick leave was expended, leave which might actually be needed sometime down the road.
It was not deployed and the guy telling me about it said the raises attained were well received.
The problem with the official cause of the TWA crash was that all Boeing aircraft fuel tanks and systems are alike. The configuration of the fuel tanks and system on TWA 810 was no different than on thousands of Boeing aircraft at various times and places. So, the question is why had there never been a previous explosion of this sort? I was retired when this happened, but I knew from many years of experience on Boeing aircraft that the NTSB’s conclusion was reaching for an explanation that was highly improbable.
The aircraft fuselage was torn on one side as if something like a missile had cut through it. Put that together with the improbable conclusion of the NTSB and you can see why there is controversy.
I have my own improbable theory. It was a one off accident. Ever seen a small meteorite arcing over the horizon? It looks like it is going up, when it is actually falling. A tiny meteorite might have impacted the side of the aircraft as it descended into the ocean, where it is buried deep in the ocean floor. Crazy? Yep, but no less improbable than the NTSB conclusion. 🙂
“work-to-rule” is what the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers call it too. Everything exactly by the book and the whole book to be safe.
I had a chance to work with a fellow who was in the Navy at that time. He was an electronics officer who sat in the back seat of planes launched off a carrier. His explanation was pilot error in Flight 800. Tragic error. The planes electronic identification was on the wrong channel, the flight track was off, and the pilots didn’t respond when hailed on the radio by the naval vessel. That was only 5 years after 9/11. Get too close without responding, and you’re a threat that needs to be neutralized. We shot the plane down and hid the evidence.
Working “by the book.” We did it for a few days early in my career. I hated it. But it does slow things to a crawl. The FAA reg called for taxiing at no faster than a man can walk at a brisk pace. Ridiculous on big airports where you have to taxi a mile or more to the runway. Fly the planned route, never taking direct vectors or trying to slice a little time off the schedule. Fly the complete approach at regulation speed rather than taking an abbreviated approach and keeping the speed up. Insist that every log item be repaired before taking the aircraft. Just a few of the work by the book tactics.
Inside info some might not want to see. The regs are written for operations in the worst weather conditions. When the weather is good and traffic allows, there are many shortcuts that can be safely taken hat save time and fuel. And knowing when to take the shortcuts is why the Captains are paid the big bucks.
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
I have a hard time with the whole shot down by the Navy scenario. I don’t believe a missile would strike the target unless it was an inert training round or the proximity fusing failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-to-air_missile#/media/File:RF4C_Phantom_II_of_the_11th_TRS_is_shot_down_by_a_S75_missile_over_Vietnam,_12_August_1967.jpg
Notice the proximity fusing and the Phantom is already gushing flame.
I think you have to be close enough to the launcher to see the rocket exhaust but even when you can’t see the flame you can see the smoke go all the way to the launcher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-66_Standard#/media/File:US_Navy_110620-O-ZZ999001_A_Standard_Missile_(SM_2)_is_fired_from_HMAS_Sydney_(FFG_3)_during_a_livefire_exercise_near_the_Pacific_Missile_Range_o.jpg
Edit: Shoot! those links didn’t work. you have scroll to the correct pictures.
This fellow, a current airline pilot for AA, has reported on the SWA situation today. He cites a number of reasons that led to this outcome. I will add that he is noted for his factual reporting.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kO39nIcuPhQ
This is fun reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead
Some pictures in here worth the thousand words.
Have no idea whether or not the current trend is back toward annular (makes little sense to waste energy blowing stuff forwards or backwards in shoot down scenario — getting alongside or up the tailpipe is the missile’s job) fragmentation cf. chopping you in half with a nifty explosively formed ring
Warp Speed made sense for cohorts at high risk. For most people, it not only does not make sense, but data from Spain, India, Israel, Britain, Sweden, and America, too, is that it was/is a poor choice for the majority of the population, including people… persons with comorbidities correlated with age. The goal is immunity, not vaccination, where the naturally-derived former has been observed to be both more robust and durable, and the latter a cause for excess adverse events and forward-looking risk. Planned parent/hood was neither an exclusive nor a good Choice. And masks, on the science, and physics, have limited utility to control droplet spread when following strict protocol, and random effect, at best, to control other transmission modes (and no source control). People at risk should either isolate or wear respirators with protective clothing, and be attended to by people who have seroconverted.
It was just a “coincidence” that the SW problems happened right after they announced they would buckle under the mandate.
Just like it was a “coincidence” that Covid started right where there was a virus lab.
Arama at Red State makes this note, which the SWA honchoes don’t seem to realize with their mandating.
That the airlines and Amtrak (see RS) are imposing these unwritten (and probably illegal) mandates at the beginning of the holiday season, which is a major flight window for huge numbers of passengers, is psychotically insane.
@ Rufus > “Herb Kelleher is likely spinning in his grave.”
Just like Churchill and Thatcher (in the Open Thread).
@ Milwaukee > “For years Southwest Airlines was one of the few non-union airlines. Pilots, flight attendants, baggage handlers, mechanics, the lot of them were non-union. They attracted a certain type of workers. That independence is hard to eradicate. Don’t hire a bunch of independent thinkers, who defy national trends, and expect them to not be independent thinkers.”
It looks like their union is actually doing what it’s supposed to: serving their members.
Not on SWA per se, but in the general vax-cinity.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/10/conspiracy_or_greed_thats_the_big_question.html
Has a great story AND a graphic by Widburg.
https://www.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2021-10/233004_5_.jpg
@ PA Cat – the Liberty Beacon story was originally published at American Thinker, and I believe that Lifson’s observations are very instructive.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/10/southwest_airlines_forced_to_cancel_1800_weekend_flights_one_day_after_pilots_union_filed_for_a_restraining_order_on_vaccine_mandate.html
In addition, he quotes Sundance at Conservative Treehouse on the broader implications of the stoppages at SWA and other transportation companies.
Are we watching the end of the beginning?
Sundance’s post deserves its own comment. Remember, he always looks closely at how and why the trees make a forest.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/10/10/more-info-surfaces-on-southwest-airlines-flight-cancellations-and-pilot-push-back-against-vaccine-mandates/#more-218256
And then the conclusion that Lifson quoted.
A thought-provoking comment: “Who in their right mind would want to fly on a plane with a vaxxed pilot, co-pilot and staff?
My friend’s sister fell over and died 4 days after getting the poison injection. She walked out her front door, fell to the ground, and died. That fast with no warning.”
More of a similar anecdotal quality, but it’s not like there haven’t been bad reactions for a lot of people, and no reason pilots should be exempt.
I left out some of the important parts because they can’t be copied in text.
But go there for the memes if nothing else.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/southwest-3-768×418.jpg
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/COVID-conspiracy-1.jpg
Let’s go, Brandon!
The Peanut Planes are waiting for you.
The commenters at Alex Berenson’s post (h/t lee) have thoughts.
And links to sites that are definitely not pro-vaxx, but I don’t see any reason to doubt their “news” as opposed to opinion; at least I can tell them apart, unlike the NYT.
https://coronanews123.wordpress.com/2021/10/02/us-army-flight-surgeon-demands-all-vaxxed-pilots-be-grounded-citing-deaths/
https://coronanews123.wordpress.com/2021/09/16/abc-station-soliciting-pro-vaccine-stories-on-facebook-receives-massive-backlash-on-deaths-and-side-effects-kills-story/
https://thepulse.one/2021/09/22/fda-document-shows-an-undisclosed-mystery-ingredient-in-covid-vaccines-what-is-it/
ICYMI – the wonder drug of our grandparents’ day is still going strong.
https://notthebee.com/article/study-from-george-washington-university-says-risk-of-death-from-covid-is-halved-by-aspirin-use
We could ship supplies to everyone on SWA, after the pilots beat the vaxx mandate into the ground.
https://babylonbee.com/news/weird-many-southwest-planes-flying-banners-reading-lets-go-brandon
And if the airline execs win, they’ve got that covered too!
https://babylonbee.com/news/southwest-airlines-offering-free-flights-to-all-passengers-who-are-vaccinated-and-can-fly-a-plane
Only fitting, since Southwest is Texas born and bred, despite the numskulls now running the company.
https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/10/11/greg-abbott-defies-joe-biden-and-throws-southwest-airlines-a-lifeline-n455347
@AesopFan:
Interesting the Aspirin thing. I’ve read wild speculation that a chunk of low dose Aspirin’s long term positive benefits derive directly from it causing the notorious GI microbleeds — phlebotomy on the installment plan.
Via Twitchy –
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2021/10/11/blame-the-weather-photo-of-gadsden-flag-hanging-from-a-certain-airlines-cockpit-window-is-making-the-rounds/
https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1447679841717919744
Christina Pushaw, press secretary for Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, delivered reality checks to Dems and the media and then weighed in on the photo:
“Is this a new device to measure storm winds amid all these severe weather issues?”
To which some Tweeter replied: “Yes, new device to measure Hurricane Brandon!”
One thing to keep in mind is that there seems to be some evidence of negative side effects of esp the mRNA vaccines, and esp of heart issues, where otherwise very healthy people just fall over dead with little or no advanced warning. The head Army flight surgeon for one large military base has grounded any flight crew who are vaccinated, until their heart is checked out with a special MRI test. The justification for this is essentially that they cannot afford to risk the lives entrusted to these people if their hearts were to stop when they were in critical situations , such as when they are the pilot in charge. The death toll from one crash caused by such a heart attack could potentially kill more people than the entire number of active military service members lost so far to COVID-19 (<20, out of roughly 1.6 millions).
A lot of these SWA pilots are ex military, are still connected to the military grape vine, and know of this. Except that instead of risking 20 or so soldiers if the pilot in charged died at the stick, they risk potentially hundreds.
I’m late to the game, but:
One can disagree with any particular conclusion, without endorsing others.
The reason I’ve never believed that TWA 800 was shot down by some Navy missile test is simple. A) When the Navy, or Air Force, is conducting such tests, they announce it in advance and put out a NOTAM (Notice To Airmen) warning pilots to stay away.
B) The Navy and Air Force have proving grounds where they conduct such tests. None of those testing areas are anywhere near the most heavily used international civilian flight corridor (for obvious reasons).
C) It happened on Sunday night. The armed forces of the United States would never, ever, run a missile test on Sunday night. Any such test would have civilians from the relevant company on hand, and those guys don’t work on Sunday night. One could come up with a reason to do it at night, but the night that they would never do it is Sunday. It’s inconvenient.
Our naval SAM have warheads of about 150 pounds. Part of the reason is that a contact hit cannot be guaranteed and the computing may say “this is as close as I can get so I’ll explode then” and not be really close. So they need some power. A warhead that size hitting a fat, slow, not-maneuvering liner–contact hit–would blow it to tin foil strips.
Those things are big and expensive. If a ship goes out with twenty of them and comes back one short, it’s going to be a really big deal. The next guy who signs for the ship will not sign for twenty SAM if there are only nineteen. There’s no hiding the paper work in the chain of custody from factory into the storage to the ship. So replacing one is not going to go unremarked. And the crew….
The feds say no passengers had shrapnel wounds. This, presumably, proves no bomb/missile. But a MANPAD hitting, say, the cargo bay is going to have its frags absorbed. Ditto, say, wing root, landing gear, etc. And this presumes the feds aren’t lying.
As to UFO. Some time back the AF said they’d cleared 96% of unexplained reports by connecting them to aircraft, presumably mostly the experimental types like the F117 in its development phase, or others. IOW there was SOMETHING out there. Wasn’t nothing and it wasn’t swamp gas.
re: my comment on TWA flt 800
I don’t have a theory that I’m pushing on the cause of the explosion (although I do find Cashill to be credible on that and in general). The CIA did come up with the bizarre climb video. Airplanes with the front blown off do not climb over 3000 feet. Period. That was the reason for my comment. Regardless of what caused the explosion that tore up the plane, the CIA explanation of what happened was ridiculous. As was SWA’s claim about the weather this weekend.
Yes, Richard. How are you going to keep the crew of a Navy ship from talking? Everyone on board, a minimum of 90 people, will have known that the ship launched a missile. Even if a sailor is in the bilges he’s going to hear it. One of them is going to yield to temptation and email some reporter.
The Iranians, who have much greater control over the lives of their military men, couldn’t keep the truth of how they shot down an airliner under wraps last year. That would have been initially a smaller number–12 or so on the missile crew. That number grows fast, though, as word of the crash gets out, and other crews say, well, it wasn’t us . . . .
Stan,
Do we have a body of knowledge that conclusively proves that 747s cannot climb 3000 feet when damaged so? I doubt it. You can get lost in YouTube videos explaing odd aircraft behavior before crashes. As far as I know this has only happened once, and there are plenty of wind tunnel facilities where it could be tested.
And as Art Deco has pointed out, the CIA produced an animation. Perhaps they had the top animation people in government at the time. But it does not lead from “made a video” to “made a conclusion and forced it back down the line.” The NTSB may be discreet–if any agency involved would be, it would be NTSB. But now we’re adding more layers of folks who know the hidden truth.
I don’t know what happened. But I find it very difficult to believe that so many people could keep secret what was a very unlikely event–a Navy missile strike.
Now if you say, it was a man-portable missile, well. Could be; perhaps some guy picked one up on an overseas tour and managed to smuggle it back. Then he’s out on a boat with friends and wants to show off. Considering blowback, it’s a damn dangerous move, but “Hold my beer!”
The maximum range of a Stinger is 4 km. The maximum altitude is 3.5 km. The TWA jet was at least 4.5 km above the surface, so that exceeds the range of a Stinger, even if fired at the optimum distance. Yes, the warhead has a lethal range. But it’s nowhere near a full kilometer. So, it wasn’t a Stinger unless guy on boat has a really, really tall ladder.
Gordon Scot: “Yes, Richard. How are you going to keep the crew of a Navy ship from talking?”
Exactly. That’s why I have ruled out a mistake missile launch by the Navy. By now, someone in the crew would have talked Unless, of course, the Clinton Mafia had them all killed. 🙂 A death bed confession, someone needs money and sells their story to the Enquirer, or just an act of conscience. The story would have come out by now.
The sudden climb after the airplane was hit by something can be explained by the fact that the fuselage didn’t fall apart immediately. Whatever hit the plane made a cut in the fuselage that led to eventual separation as the pilots tried to gain altitude. They knew they had an emergency of some sort when the airplane was hit. Altitude is your friend i n an emergency. The natural instinct is to climb if possible. It was their last act as the fuselage split apart shortly after the climb and began its plunge to the water. At least that’s my theory. What hit the airplane remains the mystery.
The fuel tank explosion theory advanced by the NTSB is, as I mentioned earlier, a dubious one because the cause cited had existed in Boeing airplanes many times in many places before. Yet there wee no explosions in those cases. Was a fuel tank explosion a one off? A one in a million event? Possible. IMO, the real cause is unknown and will probably remain that way. The NTSB could not come o that conclusion because it would look bad. So here we are.
I might mention that a friend from my airline days, Captain Dick Russell, did a lot of investigation of the accident. He was quite vocal in his criticism of the NTSB and FBI. Which got him a visit from the FBI. That was probably the earliest example I can think of when a government agency went to work to censor/silence a citizen. A harbinger of things to come.
SWA bosses declined to take Abbot’s face-saving life-line.
They are afraid, or convinced, or psychotic.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/southwest-to-follow-biden-vaccine-order-defying-texas-ban/ar-AAPqvvm?ocid=msedgntp
There is no legal vaccine order until the courts are done.
However, the precedent at SCOTUS is pretty much letting the government do what it wants if Democrats are pushing it.
Biden may well be FDR 2.0, but only the bad parts (there were a few good parts, but mostly the New Deal set the stage for the now very evident bad parts).
but mostly the New Deal set the stage for the now very evident bad parts)
The capitulation of the courts during the period running from 1937 to 1942 is salient today.
Recall that during the period running from 1933 to 1940, federal spending bounced around 6.5% of gross domestic product and no budget deficits exceeded 4% of gross domestic product. They were rather more circumspect in this realm than any post-war administration. The most troublesome thing done was the passage of the National Industrial Recovery Act, which the federal courts annulled as a violation of the non-delegation principle. The next was the attempt, beginning in 1938, to enforce an absurdly high minimum wage (given nominal employee compensation per worker at the time, the value fixed in federal legislation would be the equivalent of a $25 an hour minimum today). The third was the tangled web of production controls and cartels in the agriculture sector
I’m amazed at the number of aerospace engineers who hang out here.
That was only 5 years after 9/11. Get too close without responding, and you’re a threat that needs to be neutralized. We shot the plane down and hid the evidence.
The flight occurred five years prior to 9/11.
National Review argues:
______________________________
Southwest’s problems the past few days were not caused by imposition of a vaccine mandate. They seem to be the consequence of a long series of business decisions in response to the pandemic recovery that didn’t work out as well as planned, with bad weather mixed in for good measure.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/whats-going-on-with-southwest-airlines/
I’m convinced art deco is the smartest and most cultvated man in the world.
And he’s a sexy, sexy guy who dances well.
So, the question is why had there never been a previous explosion of this sort?
It’s a low probability event.
Several episodes are listed in Wikipedia.
What’s your contention, that the NTSB doesn’t know its business or that the NTSB is lying?
I’m convinced art deco is the smartest and most cultvated man in the world.
I’m convinced you’re a twerp. You’re all making categorical statements about an event which requires scores of people months to investigate (actually, years in this case). You expect no counterpoint just why?
Gordon Scott. I meant the usual naval SAM has a lethal range. Considerably more than a 155mm HE round. The MANPAD must hit or come extremely close with its 6-7lb warhead.
I’d be interested in some clown getting hold of maybe the latest Sov MANPAD, or perhaps–it was the Redeye when I was in and so I’m not in a position to know–the capabilities have been upgraded. Looking at some other MANPADs, it seems TWA 800 might have been within their envelope, or at the edge.
The guys who blew up AirIndia eleven years earlier weren’t horsing around for grins. 350 people killed and it took the Canadians twenty years and a boatload of money to figure out who screwed up.
But, as I say, there are two items which got my attention. The optical delusion, if you will of streaks going up…. And the three separate and contradictory explanations for the explosive residue. Clearly, one would have been satisfactory–the one about leftovers from shuttling troops to and from Gulf I five years earlier. Implausible but not refutable.
And one note–how can you tell how accurate it is and you can’t believe any research will prove or disprove it: No 747 was taken out of service to fix the asserted problem. True? Not true? Not necessary?
In a sense, it’s like the dems and vote fraud: Nothing says complete honesty like endless efforts to hide evidence of complete honesty.
The 1993 attempt at the WTC took some organizing.
The guys who blew up AirIndia eleven years earlier weren’t horsing around for grins. 350 people killed and it took the Canadians twenty years and a boatload of money to figure out who screwed up.
The commission of inquiry on the subject was in session for four years.
It was understood right away the plane had been bombed.
Art Deco: “It’s a low probability event.
Several episodes are listed in Wikipedia.
What’s your contention, that the NTSB doesn’t know its business or that the NTSB is lying?”
“The NTSB concluded that the most likely source of sufficient voltage to cause ignition was a short from damaged wiring, or within electrical components of the FQIS. As not all components and wiring were recovered, pinpointing the source of the necessary voltage was not possible.”
The NTSB recommendation from this accident was for inert gas to be pumped into nearly empty tanks. This fix was too expensive for existing aircraft. So, it was implemented on new aircraft only. Some wiring inspections were done on existing aircraft, but there was never another such fuel tank explosion that I’m aware of. If there had been ,it could be cause to ground the airplanes as unsafe. The NTSB never said they were certain that they knew what caused the accident. They know their stuff, butt his case mystified most people who know Boeing airliners and the way they are built. A close friend was co-pilot on a 747 that lost its cargo door enroute to Auckland from Honolulu. It resulted in an explosive decompression that tore a hole in the side of the plan and damaged both engines on the starboard side. Some passengers were sucked out of the aircraft during the decompression. That the fuselage stayed in one piece is a testament to the ruggedness of Boeing air frames.
My friend knew the B-747 well. He and I discussed the TWA accident and he believed the NTSB had to find a cause and the fuel tank explosion was the only straw they could grasp.
I have an opinion informed by 38 years experience in aviation. You don’t agree. Then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I have an opinion informed by 38 years experience in aviation. You don’t agree. Then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
My opinion is that the agency which spends its time reconstructing aviation accidents has the most informed opinion. This conversation began with someone on 11 October at 1:54 pm insisting that the NTSB’s explanation was ‘not possible’, which was followed by somewhat less categorical remarks by various other characters.
Art Deco. Yes, the bombing was immediately understood. But the question of how it got there, who missed it, etc. was a very long time figuring out.
It figures, imo, in why the CASB agreed on Arrowair 1285 that it was icing–five voted for iccing against four for onboard disabling incident. On a day when no other aircraft reported icing. Got 250 of our guys killed coming out of Gander. So the Canadians in charge of keeping bombs off aircraft had already had a bad year and fudging the result wasn’t going to bring our guys back.
Plus some clown in DC wanted to seal the records for seventy years.
Lots of ways to look shifty, and if it’s unnecessary….