Kurt Schlichter asks the generals to resign. And I second the motion.
Not that they’ll ever do it. That would take far more integrity than they possess.
But we can ask anyway [my additions in brackets]:
Yeah, we know your boss is a senile old fool with delusions of competence. His failure will be addressed at the ballot box [perhaps]. But your failure, generals and admirals, is something only you can address, at least until President DeSantis [that would be nice] comes and separates the wheat from the chaff in the Pentagon.
Yeah, we know, you have to follow the orders of the civilian authorities – though not if it’s Trump, since he was not part of the in-crowd you aspired to join as adjunct military members. Your passive-aggressive mutiny against the guy the American people elected set back civil-military relations 250 years. You took the one institution most Americans still trusted and turned it into a roiling cauldron of hot garbage [they had a lot of help, including that of President Obama]. And don’t try to hide behind “You gotta support the troops.” We do. But you suck, and we know you suck, and you know you suck.
If you didn’t suck, you’d have quit.. When President Durwood told you to ditch Bagram Air Base, you joint chiefs should have got together, realized this was going to get a bunch of the guys that America entrusted to you killed, and decided to resign. You can’t disobey, but you can take a stand.
Exactly. En masse.
Schlichter points out several more things that I think are true, and I’ve said some of them before, but they need saying again by someone who might be heard by all of America. The first is that it was obvious, and would have been obvious even to a child, that leaving Bagram when they did (and I would add in the manner they did) was a terrible decision in the tactical sense. The second is that the generals are almost certainly too focused on their own careers to do the right thing. And the third is that an en masse resignation, or even the threat to resign that way, almost certainly would have been effective. It would almost certainly have prevented what I believe is the worst military and foreign policy debacle in American history, one that has harmed our country (and probably the world) enormously.
[ADDENDUM: Here’s some background on who made the decision to close Bagram, and what they said about it.]
Had the generals resigned en masse there probably would have been more generals happy to move up and replace them en masse.
We the citizenry live under the control not of “the best and the brightest” but of the worst and most nakedly ambitious, almost all of whom are credentialed morons possessed of supposedly impressive resumes but, with very few exceptions, incompetent and ignorant. Our corrupt ruling elites have, in fact, turned this republic into a kakistocracy, nor (GOPe being mostly cowardly and feckless) will next year’s midterms likely change anything even should Republicans win both houses. One begins to understand how Roman patricians might have felt during the course of the fifth century, although our collapse (being exacerbated by cultural decay and by demographic transformation) may well be far swifter and with truly global ramifications.
I’m not sure what America did to deserve such a pack of honorless, shameless, careerist cowards. At minimum the troops on the ground deserve far better in particular those who died yesterday sure do. But I’m certainly not going to hold my breath for them to do what’s obviously the right thing.
tcrosse:
Yes, but that’s beside the point. The point is that a mass resignation of that sort would be big news, and the idea of the political fallout from it might have given Biden and/or his handlers pause, and might have caused them to make a different and at least somewhat better decision. In other words, the threat to resign by the generals might have had a deterrent effect.
Forget the mass resignation. What about a “sternly worded” public letter from all the retired military and intelligence types who had no problem trashing Donald Trump when he was in the Oval Office? Where are those jagoffs now?
Mike
Trying to put a happy face on…
“I Second That Emotion” by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sti_tuBiv5g
But these generals disgust me.
I don’t believe there was any big conspiracy to bring America down. It was just a bunch of pathetic brown-nosers looking to please the boss to get ahead, while pushing their real jobs down to underlings — who will take the blame.
neo:
Then again, it might not.
tcrosse:
Agreed. But again, that’s not the point. It very much might have, and it would have been the only thing (in my opinion) that could have. And I actually think it would have, because the “optics” (as they say) would have been so bad for Biden.
The Obama years hollowed out the upper echelon of our military. To be promoted, one needed to be what was called “politically correct,” now, “woke.” Traditional military-task-focused tough officers were weeded out.
Biden claims the military told him Bagram was not important. Milley says they were ordered to protect the Embassy and could not do that and keep Bagram with only 2500 people. So, instead of resigning, they bugged out of Bagram and ended up not protecting the Embassy anyhow. Biden’s an idiot, but Milley had the responsibility and the training and failed.
neo:
I take your point, but it’s arguable that Biden’s éminence grise was hell-bent on this outcome and damn the optics.
You just don’t give up billions of dollars of high tech equipment to your enemy that can change the regions military affairs for the next decade.
Israel will feel the military equipment within a year or two by Jihad groups.
It’s as if in May 1945 we gave the Japanese 6 aircraft carriers with all the aircraft and equipment on them including radar equipment and turned away leaving them alone.
Not sure which of them he is referring to. There are around 530 flag rank officers. There would be Austin (retired Army), Milley (Joint staff), McConnville (Army Chief of Staff), McKenzie (commander of CENTCOM), Brown (Air Force Chief of Staff), and Berger (Commandant of the Marine Corps).
Where are those jagoffs now?
on corporate boards.
You just don’t give up billions of dollars of high tech equipment to your enemy
In fairness, I doubt the Taliban has the technicians to keep that equipment running even if they could teach themselves to use the equipment. I read once that helocopter requires one hour of maintenance for each hour of use. A lot of that will be scrap ‘ere long.
Where are the Pattons when we need them?
Art Deco:
But they can either import maintenance people from Pakistan or elsewhere, or they can sell that stuff for a lot of money to someone who is able to maintain it – and whatever country that is, it won’t be a friend of ours..
It is also my understanding that they are very good with firearms and should be able to maintain that sort of weaponry.
“You just don’t give up billions of dollars of high tech equipment to your enemy that can change the regions military affairs for the next decade.”
A reminder of the real scope of the issue here. To get our military equipment out of Afghanistan would have required a concrete series of steps.
1. Locate the equipment.
2. Count the equipment.
3. Prepare the equipment for shipping.
4. Get the equipment to the airports.
5. Organize the planes to ship the stuff out.
6. Get the equipment onto the planes.
7. Fly the equipment out of Afghanistan.
8. Be ready to offload and store the equipment when it lands somewhere else.
And all of those steps have multiple sub-steps, like after counting the equipment you would need to compare it to existing records of what should be there and resolve any discrepancies.
Planning for all this stuff should have started in earnest before the 2020 election and the actual process should have begun early in 2021. Yet just a month before Biden’s bug out date, NOTHING had been done to remove vast amounts of U.S. military equipment from Afghanistan.
I’m sure Biden made bad decisions that complicated matters but this was, as the kids say today, a “systemic” failure.
Mike
The brutal truth is that the upper echelons of the US Military are traitors, one and all. As they are enabling the rendering of aid and comfort to America’s mortal enemies. Had they any honor, any loyalty to the oaths they have sworn, resigning and then speaking out in protest would be a mandatory moral obligation.
This is no longer about politics, this is about America’s survival.
Every one of them richly deserves to be put in front of a firing squad.
The less time consuming alternative to getting our military equipment out of Afghanistan would be to blow it up. Isn’t blowing stuff up one of the military’s specialties?
I didn’t realize that both houses of congress provided waivers to allow retired Gen. Austin to take office as Sec. of Defense. I’m not sure I understand the issue, but I guess it is the civilian control issue.
Austin should have resigned. Maybe he was inside the chain of military command in the past, but he’s not now. He’s a civilian. Show some spine man. Although, … wasn’t he the guy that said America’s greatest threat is white supremacists?
MBunge,
Your comment brought to mind the realization that there’s a real possibility that the decision to leave all of that equipment in Afghanistan was rationalized as a gift to our Afghan allies. One that would enable their 300k “well trained and equipped” army to keep the Taliban from taking over.
If so, it demonstrates anew the administration’s abject failure to remember that in a dogfight, what counts is not the size of the dog but the amount of fight in the dog…
“I didn’t realize that both houses of congress provided waivers to allow retired Gen. Austin to take office as Sec. of Defense”
As they did for Mattis.
MBunge,
At a minimum, a dozen demolitions people with a few hundred pounds of explosives and a bunch of radio detonators could have made short work of disposal.
_____
I don’t want to barf on huxley, to use Neo’s amusing term, but people really need to start ascribing intent to some of these actions. The Democrats, in general, are thrilled to receive the epithet of incompetence from the likes of right wingers and other “Neanderthals.” Just don’t try to claim or especially prove criminal intent.
Good grief, they are welding shut the gates to Kabul airport.
___________________________________
Altman’s report follows a similar tweet from The Washington Post’s Liz Sly, who said earlier Thursday morning: “The Kabul airport attack has nixed hopes of evacuation for the last thousands still hoping to make it out. Am hearing the US military is sealing shut the airport gates. The casualty numbers are growing by the minute. A tragedy piled on a tragedy.”
Sly added that evacuations are still ongoing inside the airport, but anyone who is still outside may be stranded.
“To be clear, evacuations of those inside the airport will continue. But I am trying to get people out and am told no one who is not already inside will now be admitted. There are thousands who have been been [sic] unable to reach the airport,” Sly said.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/report-kabul-airport-gates-being-welded-shut-expediting-withdrawal-after-kabul-bombings-that-killed-four-u-s-marines
TommyJay:
Feel free to disagree, but I’m not interested in being barfed on even figuratively…
I am persuadable that skulduggery is afoot, but I need some specifics of who does what to whom and what and why.
The Biden administration and its military pets aren’t self-sacrificing revolutionaries bringing down a hated regime. They are the regime and they are damaging themselves. They are risking the loss of power and becoming the hunted if Trump or someone similar becomes President in 2024.
Democrats don’t like watching Afghanistan collapse in horror and incompetence either. They know it’s not helping their side and their cozy assumptions of superiority.
Geoffrey Britain,
No rationalization is needed. The Taliban captured the AAF. This is a repeat of the fall of the RVNAF.
From Wikipedia:
“248 RVNAF aircraft were flown out of South Vietnam to Thailand during the collapse; of these 142 aircraft were removed from Thailand by United States Navy ships, including 101 aircraft aboard the USS Midway which evacuated 27 A-37s, 3 CH-47s, 25 F-5Es and 45 UH-1Hs from U-Tapao Air Base on 5 May 1975. 54 ex-RVNAF aircraft were transferred to the Thai Government, these comprised: 1 A-37, 17 C-47, 1 F-5B, 12 O-1, 14 U-17 and 9 UH-1H.
The PAVN captured 877 RVNAF aircraft and helicopters including 73 F-5s, 113 A-37s, 36 A-1s, 40 C-119s, 36 AC-47s, 430 UH-1s and 36 CH-47s, some of which were put into service by the VPAF.”
Neo said, “the generals are almost certainly too focused on their own careers to do the right thing”
Good Grief!
These are all 3, 4 or 5 star generals. What careers do they have in mind? maybe to sit on military product corps that will be busy replacing the billions of dollars worth gifted by them to the Taliban?
Do not forget: Bagram was abandoned in the middle of the night on July 5. Do not ever forget; I won’t.
The generals are traitors and should be court-martialed, with execution as the possible sentence. Austin is a dumb, self-serving black man who isn’t worth sh*t, but is in the job of SecDef because of his skin.
But no one is steering the boat of American justice.
They are adept at making copies of firearms. I am sure the Chinese, Russians and/or the Iranians are vying for a deal with them for the good stuff since they were given it by Biden
Death by hanging would be merciful.
A an ex military guy at another blog made the point that any of the more high tech gear they left behind is now officially obsoleted as of this month given will be reverse engineered by peer level opponents.
So your Participation Medal Bedecked Perfumed Princes have guaranteed countless billions of expenditure for replacement R&D and purchases… and thereby their cushy post-retirement board positions at defense contractors.
Burn. It. Down.
Neo, I don’t see how they can resign. In the military you don’t “resign” from your assignment; you serve in place until properly relieved. They could request reassignment, but trying to resign without permission would be willful dereliction of duty, triable by court-martial, at a minimum. Publicly requesting reassignment would be the most they could do, though that raises other legal questions.
AF JAG, Thanks for that. What about our Sec. Def. retired Gen. Austin? Is he outside the duty requirements?
@Skip:
“Israel will feel the military equipment within a year or two by Jihad groups.”
Always with the Israel.
Oh, I think the nuclear triad armed 300lb Levantine Pocket Gorilla will somehow manage to make do and muddle through more US military incompetence.. I mean they survived the US Liberty accidentally shooting itself full of holes just to confuse everybody… few shoulder launched missiles won’t be nothing. What about the USA though? 🙂
It’s not as if Israel is unfamiliar with transfer of US Technology to foreign powers — cf. the help they have given China with fighter and missile tech… but you probably don’t see that headlined in National Review 🙂
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-f-16-meet-j-10-fighter-possibly-thanks-israel-48727
https://rense.com/general32/its.htm
So… it’s all old hat for them. They’ll survive. You might even say that they’re ‘Lindy’. Question is will you survive? Last I checked, the USA has only been annoying everybody else for only 250-ish years.
Perhaps worry more about the USA, no? You being American and all.
The second is that the generals are almost certainly too focused on their own careers to do the right thing.
Second the motion. Those generals under recent questioning in Congress are shockingly inarticulate, and obviously have no intentions of sharing their supporting reasons for approving the bugout proposal as sent from the field.
One wonders if the current careerists at the top were carefully selected by the same gang who under Obama hastened many competent warfighting officers into retirement, to be replaced by candidates more politically sensitive to social justice concerns than the welfare of the United States at large.
The Kurds will feel the gift of billions to the Taliban and ISIS, have read it was a looters paradise the day after Bagram was abandoned. The region power is now the Taliban and any groups Allied
MBunge: to get our military equipment out of Afghanistan would have required a concrete series of steps.
Not necessary. Destroy/disable in place would have avoided all those tedious logistical steps, AND denied use of that equipment to the bad guys. Brainless is as brainless does, and the Austin/Milley/Biden trilogy wins the Olympic gold medal for brainless.
@Insufficiently Sensitive:
Obama didn’t help of course.
But the rot is much deeper. It is a mistake in the Current Year to see the top brass as being a *career*… It is not. Making it to starred general rank is about positioning yourself for defense contractor / ‘consultancy’ gigs after you retire from your ostensible career. That’s when you make bank. I don’t need to draw any diagrams to explain just how corrupting that is and what kind of people are going to ensure that they stay the path whilst ascending the greasy pole.
It gets worse…There’s corruption at the bottom too. Whilst it is insanely tough to get into the various special forces arms, the motivation to apply these days is tainted by the knowledge that in this social media personal branding era, being ‘ex-special forces’ — especially seems to be so with the Seals — is worth potentially millions. Again, going to attract some guys with wrong motivations and very likely going to color their actions whilst on active service.
Nothing good about Forever Wars.. Certainly not this one. One might have hoped for a handy crop of ‘Colonels’ with penchant for Dissident Helicopter Rides, but seems even that forlorn Chilean hope has rotted away.
Interesting article at PJ Media, suggesting that State is in charge of the Afghanistan mess, not DoD.
https://pjmedia.com/columns/bryan-preston/2021/08/27/whos-really-driving-the-afghanistan-disaster-heres-a-clue-n1473433
@Skip:
Good to know that if we ever run out of Jews (a most unlikely prospect if past performance is any guide) there will always be the Kurds to worry about.
Not trying to pick on you… but really there is this reflective conditioned Pavlovian ‘What about the X?’ Reflex which many of you have been carefully trained into over the years. News: The X are none of your concern. You were not put on this good earth to Save the X. Especially not when ‘Saving the X’ always seems to result in things getting worse in your own country.
Cease. Desist. Look to your own.
Just a thought.
Jake Sullivan with the nsc micromanaged this cluster. The military just takes orders.
It’s gone back to the Obama micromanaging structure.
Under Trump it went back to supplying options / information.
Who is this Lloyd Austin character? My limited understanding is that he could have resigned instead of facilitating this Afghanistan nightmare.
After retiring as an Army General, from Wikipedia,
Ah, It’s good to have connections.
Oh, about his special congressional waivers.
So you can be receiving stock or stock options from Raytheon one year, and then directing billions towards Raytheon as Sec. Def. the next year. As long as our elected reps. don’t care, I guess it’s OK.
Seth Moulton is the Rep. that cared enough to go to Afghanistan and see.
@TommyJay:
But Raytheon saves Kurdish Lives! Or something.
If Biden were Japanese he would have to use the short sword…….
If Biden were Japanese he’d be shampooing his hair plugs in his Toto Washlet.
https://washlet.totousa.com/
I’m surprised that the Generals, etc, aren’t rationalizing to the public that they left all of the equipment & supplies for the “loyal” Afghan army’s use against the Taliban.
One or more folks have posted some links to recent Mark Steyn essays. My goodness, Mr. Steyn has been on at tear lately. He’s so uniquely brilliant. It’s a tragic situation, but no one expounds on it as cogently as Mark Steyn.
Just read the entire Schlichter piece. Incredible! I have to believe more than a few of our fellow citizens, serving in uniform are sharing that.
It’s hard to believe those who lead our armed forces can maintain confidence. I hope we see resignations. Soon. I’m naïve enough to think a few still adhere to their oath.
I have to believe more than a few of our fellow citizens, serving in uniform are sharing that.
Rufus T. Firefly:
Speaking of which…
_________________________________
Marine officer relieved of duty after calling out senior leaders about Afghanistan
“I am willing to throw it all away to say to my senior leaders, ‘I demand accountability,'” Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller said in a video message.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/27/marine-us-fatalities-afghanistan-506999
The Steyn links led me to this, https://www.steynonline.com/11211/madonna-with-plugs
which led me to this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adele_Astaire
Wow! Fred’s sister, Adele was amazing! In all sincerity, quite possibly the more impressive of the two, dancing Astaire children. My guess is that would be Fred’s sincere take. I had no idea of her, or her life, other than she was Fred’s early partner in vaudeville. I highly encourage anyone here remotely interested in Fred Astaire to follow that link to Adele’s wikipedia entry. Quite the life! And quite the woman!
Under Trump, it was just fine for a General to publicly and actively oppose his CinC. Heck a LT Col seditiously framed his CinC.
Today, an officer gets relieved for doing what eggs on their hats chair living officers got to due with umpunity under Trump.
Also, an enlisted stated that she has no issues killing other Americans.
Yeah, this is a major effin problem.
AF Jag retired et al,
Everyone serving in the U.S. armed forces, from Private to General takes a sincere oath to follow the U.S. Constitution, correct?
If those responsible for conditions on the ground felt orders they were receiving violated the Constitution they could refuse to follow, correct?
huxley,
A toast to Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller!
Yes, you can resign your commission. Happens all the time. Granted, since all officers officially serve at the discretion and pleasure of the president, the resignation can be refused. Doesn’t happen much once you fulfill the initial requirements for commission in the first place.
@Rufus:
Re: Refusing to follow an order you might think violates the Holy Piece of Parchment.
I should effing think so. Nuremberg, Baby! Noted Jurist Andrey Vyshinsky has your back.
Unless there’s a bit of Who? Whom? in play. Oh? There always is? Oopsies.
There’s much speculation on the Interwebz about who might or might not follow unreasonable orders from higher up and what the repercussions might be. It’s one of those things we’re just going to have to wait and see about. Whatever the history books might say later, I’m pretty certain that the ‘in-the-moment’ considerations will be, let’s say, extra-legal.
The good thing about the US Domestic situation is that in the longer run it will be no simple matter for individuals to escape personal responsibility for serious offenses against the public.
@ TommyJay – “Like former defense secretary James Mattis, Austin required a congressional waiver of the National Security Act of 1947 to bypass the seven-year waiting period after leaving active-duty military, ”
Maybe Ike was on to something about that Military-Industrial Complex thingie.
Maybe waiving the laws just because some guy is special isn’t such a great idea.
More colonels like Scheller are needed.
MBunge @ 5:27
Your analysis is correct. It has been known for years that there would be a drawdown of men and material from Afghanistan. Take a look at a map of the area surrounding the country. Departure from Iran is out of the question. Pakistan likewise, for other reasons. I discussed in 2015 or thereabouts with the deputy of the US Ambassador in Tbilisi, Georgia the possibility to evacuate the material by rail through Turkmenistan, across the Caspian Sea to Azerbaijan and then through Georgia to the new port of Anaklia being planned and constructed on the Black Sea. It would have involved an investment on the part of the US government to improve some sections of the rail network and to guarantee financing of the new Anaklia port. The plan had the support of the future Prime Minister of Georgia. My point is, that the necessity to provide a safe, secure exit corridor has been known and discussed for many years. It simply boggles the mind that no provisions were made for the eventual evacuation of 100’s of billions $$$ of material much of it to be used against the USA.
Xyoourgos.
WRT your last sentence: Agree, but which generates more boggle? It didn’t occur to the current batch it might be necessary. It didn’t occur to the current batch to be prepared for the removal. The current batch didn’t give orders to destroy the stuff because…. The current batch thought leaving the stuff in good condition was positively a good idea.
Each one of he possibilities existed in the context you describe plus centuries of military routine so obvious as to be not worthy of remark.
I vaguely recall something from Bruce Catton’s work on the Civil War in which he mentioned Federal troops set on fire a trainload of rations including tons of bacon. Had to move and couldn’t take the stuff. What’s so hard about that?
You don’t need EVERYBODY to think of it. You just need one guy to think of it and the rest will recall that it’s a very good idea along with being required by any sentient soldier over the last thousand years.
The more I think about it, the more it seems impossible that, given they were too stupid to prepare to pull the stuff out, there must have been positive orders NOT to destroy it. There were too many people who must have thought of it–the minimum number of people necessary for one guy to think of it is…one guy–that the endless suggestions and requests for orders had to be positively rejected.
To anticipate a response from people who probably aren’t neo’s regulars, it isn’t entirely the case that you can’t destroy so much stuff so fast. It’s that NOTHING was even scratched. Not one, single effort is known to have been made. As had been said before, that doesn’t happen as a matter of negligence. Some captain, someplace, asked about destroying the stuff he was leaving. Cannot not have happened. And every time, he was told to leave it alone. No other possibility
I’m not sure the entire US defense establishment owns enough thermite grenades to to it properly. But strafing runs by Apaches or Air Force air craft would have helped. Shooting up the vehicles from other vehicles. Setting fires, for heaven’s sake.
Someplace, there are positive orders to leave the stuff untouched. Wonder when they’ll leak.
During WW II, like the Civil War, the President fired the top generals right and left, until he found ones who would fight. During the Civil War, that was US Grant. For WWII, it was Ike, McArthur, Bradley, Nimitz, etc. When the country’s existence is threatened, then we do wholesale retirements of political generals.
Someplace, there are positive orders to leave the stuff untouched. Wonder when they’ll leak.
Per the President-in-Exile, he spoke to Milley about this last year and was poleaxed when he discovered Milley wanted to leave the equipment behind in working order due to cost considerations.
Usually, you only know the name of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs if that and that person doesn’t leave much of an impression one way or another. There was a Gen. Wheeler during the VietNam War. Lyndon Johnson had two private meetings with the man over a period of four years and change. There was Colin Powell. There was a Gen. Shalikashvili, memorable for his tongue-twister name. Milley has succeeded in making quite an impression in the last year or so. Heckuva job.
Art Deco. Not sure what to say. Presuming this is true….maybe, presuming Milley is at least partially rational, there’s some caveat, some qualification….?
Has anybody asked? And lower ranking officer talked about the response to…should I blow this stuff up?
As low an opinion as I have of this batch, my opinion is maxed out. Nobody can be this stupid. I feel like people dissing “conspiracy theories’ with an argument from incredulity.
Two issues: The practical result. And the reasoning.
I think I’ll take a walk
My usual way is that when actions give results, easily predictable results, that seem stupid or irrational then it must be considered that the results are exactly what was wanted. Which then implies that the person[s] doing the actions are not what they present themselves to be. This works in personal life and also in the larger political realm.
The enemy actions are coming from within our own house, to paraphrase an old movie.
At Jerry Pournelle’s Chaos Manor, he sometimes led with this quote, when he was writing about education:
_______________________________________
If a foreign government had imposed this system of education on the United States, we would rightfully consider it an act of war.
–Glenn T. Seaborg, National Commission on Education, 1983
_______________________________________
Of course, American educators didn’t intend to degrade our education system. They just had other priorities and the job of educating became secondary.
That’s how I see Afghanistan. I don’t see an intentional plan to create this disaster. I see a weak fool at the top and a lot of people who should know better, shrugging and saying, “Not my job.”
Here is what Leon Panetta, former Presidential Chief of Staff, former CIA director, and former Sec. of Defense had to say about our current disaster.
The Bagram airfield was extremely expensive and extremely valuable to our national security needs. This touted “over the horizon capability” and the pin prick strike against “the ISIS-K planner” is an insult to our intelligence. Probably he was a planner, not The planner.
geoffb
If you wish to know intent, see the results. I forget who said that. But so many people have screwed up so much through ignorance, arrogance, sheer bad luck, and so forth, that presuming one of the former is a go-to.
If you’re correct, the arrangement has to be complex beyond belief. These people, America haters from the start, got themselves into positions where America-love is presumed and required.
Milley and Austin started as second lieutenants. Even getting there, not to mention making first lieutenant, requires actions in pursuit of American interests, if only making sure nobody gets the runs from the company mess.
So they played along until…..
Or they were doing medium well as star chasers and then….converted?
Again, the argument from incredulity–which I abhor–rears its head.
To reduce a “plot” to “that’s just how things work out sometimes” requires two or more implausibilities, improbabilities, be congruent. Numerically, if something only happens one time in ten, and has to be the case for the second item which happens one time in twenty, to have an effect, to make that a random chance means, in effect, multiplying fractions. Or, one chance in two hundred this thing is random.
I can’t imagine the number, and the probability of the improbabilities necessary for this to be just how things work out sometimes.
Among other things, Milley, to use one case, has to avoid screwing up one time in such a fashion as to not have a not-so-hot OER and thus…not make captain. Or major. Passed over–in competition with other sharp guys–twice and you’re out. Every step of the way, this guy beat the competition. Plus hauled whatever he’d gotten in college–he was ROTC–silently along with him.
And there’s a timing issue. If he is to detonate, so to speak, the “bomb”, he has to do it while he’s in and in a position where it will work. If he saves it too long…and he’s out…or he’s in charge of nothing much…. So he saved it until the most damaging possibility of his career. Or… looking backwards.
With regard to officer efficiency reports: At one point, with maybe six months as a second lieutenant, I was moving on and got my OER. My battalion commander said he gave me the best review–on top of the report which comes from my immediate commander–he’d ever given a second lieutenant. In a couple of cases, I’d handled some severely unexpected issues (this was in a training base) and bailed out a couple of exercises. But, he said, I lacked enthusiasm. His idea of enthusiasm was simulating a grand mal seizure.
So I had a sub-optimal OER. Didn’t bother me, I wasn’t in for promotions. But, I would have had that following me when the captain slot came along.
So we know that Milley managed every opportunity to have an outfreakingstanding OER. You can lose that accidentally, as I did. That’s one improbability. While having the Bomb with him every day. Multiply those…..
I go with late conversion.
Richard Aubrey:
So Milley and Austin defected to Islamism or communism or something anti-American. They have been waiting for the opportunity to do maximum damage to the United States. And now they have?
Never mind that they have ruined their reputations and may be fired or forced to resign.
Richard Aubrey:
Thank for your reply.
“I go with late conversion.”
I do too for this type of organization. More movement between posts than in college faculty where the Left first worked their takeover tactic.
My belief for the military is that the DC culture, which has become heavily left, starting likely in the 30s, brings the conversions. If you live there and want, and your wife wants, to have any social life then you must at least fake being left. And as is taught in many self-help courses, you become what you do.
The Obama, and Clinton too IIRC, firings and advancement of left compliant officers helped to stack the deck and make it easier to go along to get along.
huxley:
Not Islamism nor Communism nor even what the Left considers anti-American. If a name is required then Globalist-Corporatist-Left would be a shorthand. If they are fired or resign, which would only be to scapegoat them to protect those above them, they will land very well compensated positions somewhere as rewards for service rendered. Their reputations are just fine in the places that matter to them. The opinions of people like myself do not figure into any of of their calculations of the risk/benefit of their actions.
huxley. That or they think what they’ve done is for the best for the US. You can make tactical and strategic arguments forever. And you can repeat that no plan survives enemy contact.
You can say they took underhanded tactics to force the US out of a place they thought, and some supporters thought, was a bad, costly place to be in . But it was for our good.
Or they just screwed up.
But one item stands out, stands in opposition to all the possible qualifications and caveats, admits of no excuses. And that is the leaving so much equipment without so much as a bullet into the transmission (speaking generically, a sledge hammer to the control panel, sugar in the case tank, a quart of gasoline into the pilot’s seat followed by a lit cigar or something).
I’ve said before, if time is short, get a Humvee with a fifty and shoot up the flight line or parking lots. Even a couple of rounds in something may require repair keeping them off the battlefield for the shop time.
They never tried, and it’s possible, according to Art Deco, there were positive orders not to damage the stuff. Not the implausible failure to think of it. Not running out of time. LEAVE IT ALONE signed, your chain of command.
Incredulity is getting weaker.
Richard Aubrey, geoffb:
I suppose it can’t be settled without smoking gun memos. But I just don’t see how your scenario works.
Did Milley and Austin get the secret word from Davos or the Bilderbergers or Jeff Bezos to sabotage the Afghan Bug-Out? Or did they Just Know it was time to kneecap America with extreme prejudice?
These guys don’t look too bright or too competent, but quite effective at sucking-up to get-along. That’s a good enough explanation for me.
huxley. I’m getting vibes about the incredulity.
If geoff is correct, there may be a smoking gun memo.
However, that just kicks the impulse up a chair. Who gave them the impulse to kneecap? Or did it come to them in a dream?
Sucking up to whom?
Huxley;
I don’t think we’re that far apart. What I’m describing is a culture, one that is global. Unlike “Payback” there is no single guy at the top, it’s more like that scene in “Grapes of Wrath,” I think, speaking about the bank’s foreclosure, “If they had a single neck I’d wring it.” Go along to get along is what gets you power and money. Rocking the culture’s boat gets you crushed/canceled.
And when you do finally find someone, well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJaEky-CHU
However, that just kicks the impulse up a chair. Who gave them the impulse to kneecap? Or did it come to them in a dream?
Richard Aubrey:
That’s my question for *you*.
Sucking up to whom?
Obviously, the next person in line. Not sure of your point.
geoffb:
I’m not sure of your point either.
You and Richard A. seem to be saying that Milley and Austin or Somebodies cold-bloodedly and consciously chose to make leaving Afghanistan as bad as possible for America.
As in, “I know what will screw up America. It’s totally stupid, but I’ll abandon Bagram airbase early on. Bwahahaha.”
If that’s not what you’re saying, please explain.
@William Graves:
Re Wholesale Retirements of Political Generals:
In the Wars of Yore, there was always time to figure out who were the competent officers — at the cost of thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives, but no matter — before getting act together and steamrollering the Bad Guys™. Plus the bit about spooling up the now non-existent merchant marine shipyards and Detroit / Pittsburgh Metal bashing shops to become the Arsenal of Democracy (yawn).
Ain’t gonna happen next time around. Have to be competent from the get go *and* have an extensive existing production base if up against a peer competitor. US ability to project conventional power and *keep it* in a conventional conflict against a peer with the planning ability and foresight of something more than a goldfish is looking decidedly shaky.
Now the good news is that Nobody could invade and *hold* the Continental USA. And frankly, who would want to? Short of a bio weapon could exterminate the very, very ornery armed-to-the-teeth populations inhabiting it.
I’ve no doubt civil strife given time could throw up some Jacksons, Lees, Grants, and Shermans. What there won’t be are any Halseys if there’s war with China. Halsey got busted out at Tailhook. What for? For being a natural born Halsey, of course.
huxley
Of all the possibilities, pick a more likely one. How stupid do you have to be to screw this up this badly when you’ve had thirty years in the service including any number of command and staff schools?
Remember, Milley’s current focus was on dividing the military along racial lines by screwing with “white rage” which, in general parlance also includes patriots. How long between his last public statement on this issue and the stuff hitting the fan?
Forgetting for the moment that the strategy, tactics, and purposes, while unworthy of a green Girl Scout recruit (h/t schlichter) can be argued into infinite confsion by someone whose premises switch as necessary and whose connection to reality is only as necessary, we’re left with one item beyond argument: No destruction of equipment left behind.
There is no conceivable benefit to us, and no lack of guys down to private who would have thought of it as a routine issue.
That nothing was scratched has to be due to positive, affirmative orders to LEAVE THE STUFF ALONE. From which we go backwards to the other inexplicable catastrophes unrelieved by so many as one good idea.
Richard Aubrey:
Still not getting your point. And I’m not interested in advice.
Again, are you saying that Milley intentionally with full awareness made specific decisions so Afghanistan would turn into a disaster, e.g. Bagram airbase?
@ huxley & Aubrey – jumping in with both feet here, but let me rephrase that last question a bit to emphasize what is actually two different possibilities:
Knave (1) “Are you saying that Milley intentionally with full (and deliberate) awareness made specific decisions (in order to ensure that) Afghanistan would turn into a disaster (by first shutting down) Bagram airbase?
Fool (2) “Are you saying that Milley intentionally with full (not incapacitated; he’s not senile) awareness made specific decisions (that made it inescapable that) Afghanistan would turn into a disaster (by first shutting down) Bagram airbase?
Aubrey is arguing for (1) – the knave – because of the undestroyed equipment, which Milley claimed was intended for the Afghan army, but (as was easily foreseeable to be more likely) in fact became the spoils of the Taliban, as actually intended.
Huxley seems to suggest that (2) – the fool – is more probable, because (if I understand correctly) there isn’t really any indication that Milley is an entrenched hard-core traitor, rather than being a garden-variety Woke spoke in the wheels of the military machine, and he foolishly assumed that the equipment would be needed and used by the Afghans, despite all the indications to the contrary.
Have I got that right?
aesop. What are you doing up this early? Recall sleep which knits the frazzled threads of care or something.
For my point, you’re almost right.
I have no Milley note-to-self. But knave is the most parsimonious explanation.
The equipment issue is separate from the others because it is so egregious. No advice from Patton or Sun Tzu can be finessed to justify it. But it is not the entire picture. There is no evidence–none to my knowledge although I’m not expecting to be on the distribution list–that a contingency plan was in place to, say bomb the flight lines, the parking lots, the ammo warehouses. If there had been, nobody’s found it or ordered it. Nobody’s dumb enough to not consider the destruction. But if somebody’d asked for orders on the subject, he was affirmatively turned down. It cannot be otherwise. It’s not forgetting to check the to-do list.
The entire thing is bad, but arguments can and have, on this blog, range from the mini-tactical to the philosophical needs of the WOT to the history of other efforts. It is extremely difficult to consider the other aspects of this mess done without an effort to screw things up. But they can be argued, which is not to say even come close to proven, but people will run out of energy before the arguments are settled. The equipment issue is different. It’s the right thing to do. Nobody argues that. It’s always done. Nobody….. It’s easy to get a start on a local level. As I said elsewhere, have a lottery. Twenty bucks a ticket. Winner gets his Ma Deuce and shoots up the flight line. Proceeds go to the unit fund. Far as we know, nobody did a damned thing. That can only happen with an affirmative order which, in effect , tells everybody not to do what everybody expects and likely wants to do.
So, to the up side of leaving the stuff all gleaming in the sun….. For us, I mean.
To Milley: He’s a capable officer. We know this because his job from 2LT on up has been making his boss look good. That’s standard. Your boss has a mission and you are to help accomplish that mission. If you don’t, your career ends. I saw a major turn into a staff sergeant once. Milley didn’t get turned into a staff sergeant. Sucking up doesn’t help if you can’t pull your weight and more on the unit’s mission. You can suck up to your commander, but the OER is reviewed by his commander whose relations with you are not susceptible to sucking up. You need both the report and the review to be very good. Or you turn into a staff sergeant. Point of all this is to make the case that he’s not so stupid as to miss the equipment issue and if Geoffb is correct about Milley’s comment to Trump, he was aware of the issue.
As to the rest of the mess: Buchanan as president gets a bad rap, possibly deservedly so, for his pre-Civil War maneuverings which look to some as sympathizing with the South and trying to advantage them for secession or war. Or he was trying to maneuver in a wickedly complex situation so as to avoid war. Which might be done by advantaging the South or maybe it just looked like it. Not interested in the actual argument but making the case that, possibly, Milley was trying to force things to be so bad that other options besides national humiliation were not accessible because he thought that best for the country. It just looks bad, see. But it was for the best.
Presenting higher with a fait accomplied lack of options leaves higher stuck. They have only one choice. Did Milley do this? Could one make a sympathetic case for him? Maybe. But he’s not supposed to screw with higher’s options list.
See this clown: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cadet+rapone+west+point&t=chromentp&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fd26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net%2Flink_data_pictures%2Fimages%2F000%2F220%2F256%2Foriginal%2FDKhOjvpW4AEw3W1-840×420.jpg%3F1507502725
He graduated. He was commissioned. He took an oath to uphold protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic and bear true faith and allegiance to the same. He was so sloppy in his tradecraft that at least one prof wrote an alarming report about this guy as he was moving through West Point’s rugged four years. He couldn’t even hide it. But he was COMMISSIONED.
Far as I know, he’s been pitched out. But he got through West Point.
I don’t know about the rot. But such things are obviously not a career handicap until you go public with them. What is going on in our military that umpteen professionals at West Point saw this guy and passed him on to the next? It’s not Rapone, it’s the establishment which let him through despite indications of not actually being on side.
And Milley, what with various wars requiring his attention, decides white rage is the Big Thing. Not that he’s reading about it in his spare time. No. He’s imposing the whole CRT thing on the military with instructions to teach it in some way, to root out anybody who looks….what?, to have mid level officers and sergeants act as ventriloquists’ dummies for BLM.
Given his obvious capabilities–to do what he wants to do and get promoted–“fool” is a bridge too far.
Richard Aubrey; AesopFan:
Let’s say that Milley really truly believed that Kabul and Bagram would not fall to the Taliban – an odd thing to think, since they were advancing so quickly and without much if any resistance – but if he believed that, wouldn’t the Americans have to leave the equipment intact for the Afghan military at Bagram? How could they destroy it when the Afghan military was still supposedly in possession of the base? I think that would be the argument Milley might make.
Problem is, it was obvious that Kabul and Bagram had a good chance of falling to the Taliban without the Americans. So, it’s time to call off the American leavetaking.
But what if your CIC says “no, you must leave on schedule”? I think your only option is all to resign en masse or threaten to resign, in hope that will change his mind.
However, the Taliban are on the march. If you resign, who will take over? Someone who suddenly has to be brought up to speed on everything? So maybe it’s best not to resign?
Etc. Etc.. The fatal flaw was (possibly, anyway) believing there would be no surrender, even without the Americans there, without the maintenance crews there, and after the Americans leave like thieves in the night and by their betrayal help to destroy whatever might be left of the Afghan defenders’ will to fight.
I also read (don’t know if it’s true) that the generals wanted (and perhaps still want) to go back in with extra troops and retake Bagram, and Joe is saying no. Of course, it’s the reverse of the usual battle: first surrender, then fight? What a terrible terrible mess, an unforced error of such magnitude I really can’t think of a parallel.
neo. I suppose if you figured the ANA could hold the base. But, knowing contractors to maintain the a/c were not in prospect, protecting them would be meaningless. Meantime, no attacks have been launched. There are cluster munitions dispensed from numerous methods including bombing which can either destroy or damage even armored vehicles over wide areas. The Taliban have no anti-air capability. Why not bomb the things. It’s been done here and there in various wars.
I’ll take for the moment that the entire thing is ordered by Biden and his handlers. But the details–which is first, which is second, etc.–and reports of decisions made in theater and not in DC make things look bad for the generals.
So, unless Biden et al ordered humiliating catastrophe in detail, somebody else arranged for it when it was not necessary.
Give up Bagram? At what level is that decision made? Did Biden et al make the decision and what did the next level down advise? If we don’t have somebody in theater making the decision without advice from higher….then it’s higher who did it.
You resign when you can’t morally carry out the orders given to you, either because they’re so incredibly senseless that they’ll cost many lives to no possible benefit, or illegal.
So Milley had no particular problem with this. Either he screwed up beyond the possibility a professional officer would, or he executed such orders.
Bagram is too far for mass evac of civilians, say a number of reports. But the distance allows it to be defended as an airhead for use, even if protecting KIA activities. Bagram first? Does not compute. Somebody knew that and went ahead. Can somebody smart enough to get to a decision-making level actually believe that was a good idea? Knave is more parsimonious.
You just can’t beat the Colonel!
As for “the military plans for everything, surely there was a plan to destroy the equipment being left for the ANA”, I’m not so sure. The Pentagon is just as susceptible to groupthink as anywhere else.
Pity the poor Lt. Colonel whose name is on the “blow up the stuff we’re leaving for the ANA” plan who gets accused of Not Being A Team Player and failing to Get With The Program. Why, the very existence of such a plan implies that the Pentagon thinks that outcome is probable, and if it were to get out that would damage our relationship with our Noble Afghan Allies.
From what I read back when Bagram was abandoned, all the equipment belonged to the ANA already. In fact, the complaint was that the departing US troops had taken many of the ignition keys with them, making many vehicles useless. So while the default is certainly “blow up our own equipment to prevent it falling into the hands of the enemy”, blowing up our allies’ equipment is not. That’s on them. Not understanding that the ANA was going to dissolve the instant we stopped supporting them was the giant failure here, but I suspect nobody at the Pentagon could say so out loud.
All of the “knave” arguments basically boil down to “they couldn’t possibly be that stupid, could they?” And I fear the answer is yes, they actually are precisely that stupid, perhaps not individually but rather as a group entity.
Equipment and materiel is not the only thing being stranded/abandoned/left (whichever verb Psaki prefers) in Afghanistan….
From the “Of-course-they’re-lying-that’s-what-they-do-best” files:
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2021/08/29/dan-crenshaw-lara-logan-bring-the-most-disturbing-reports-out-of-the-kabul-airport-yet-n1473930
This poor marine commander demanded “accountability” from the top brass (Psaki would have likely said, “responsibility”).
He should have saved his breath.
(Actually, he might as well have demanded a 2020 election audit …)
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/i-demand-accountability-marine-commander-fired-viral-video-ripping-inept-afghan-war
File under: “Don’t you dare question us.”
Bryan. The hypothetical LTC would not be using that plan/order. He’d be looking at the SOP for all cases, the latest signed by U. S. Grant–because it’s not had to be revised–which says to blow stuff up when you’re leaving. Blanks for where you’re leaving from, for who the enemy is, and for where you hope to end up. Universally applicable. Our LTC would be tasked with figuring out who to get to do the work, what munitions should be available, and when to start. Probably wrote up a few notes in his spare time, just in case.
Not whether.
He was told to not even think it.
There was a story when I was in, 69-71, that a dying platoon leader got a MoH for having swung his Starlight scope–early NVG–against a tree to destroy it so the NVA couldn’t get it in shape to be reverse engineered. It could be true, which tells you how seriously command takes this stuff, or it could not be true which tells you how seriously command takes this stuff.
Richard Aubrey:
To simplify somewhat, they are all both fools and knaves, but Biden is predominantly fool and Milley et al are predominantly knaves. In other words, as more information is coming out about the Bagram decision-making process (although who knows what the truth is in all the CYA verbiage), it appears that the generals wanted to keep it but Biden insisted it be closed and the number of forces reduced to 700 (or was it 900? I can’t remember which). Once they knew it had to be closed, they (as I’ve said almost from the start) should have resigned or threatened to resign en masse. They didn’t; not even one of them. They were too worried about their careers, perhaps, which would mean they’re knaves, plus wishful thinking that maybe it would be okay, which would mean they’re fools.
neo.
They’re too well educated in such things as to think a seriously reduced force can manage what force level previously thought adequate might manage. If your math has told you that, say, 2500 guys are necessary, you cannot–literally–believe that 700 will do unless you have hard intel the bad guys have lost interest.
They had to know it would not work. But they also thought they’d get by. So…I don’t think they’re fools. They got it right. Obeyed orders and pay no consequences. Knaves.
But as to whose side they’re on…not ours. Do they wish the US harm or do they simply think of our interests are an obstacle to their careers?
Pick one. And see Rapone….
Richard Aubrey:
I’m in complete agreement that they knew 700 was completely inadequate. They just wouldn’t take the stand they needed to take, such as resigning. That’s why I said they were both fools and knaves but predominantly knaves.
When I said they may have been exercising “wishful thinking that maybe it would be okay” I had two things in mind. The first is that they may have thought the Afghan military would hold off the Taliban for at least a number of months, maybe even a year, and that our people would have plenty of time to get out. The second is that once the retaking by the Taliban happened at that point, America’s attention would be elsewhere because Americans would not be directly involved anymore. They would be using the example of Vietnam. Once we had gone and the North Vietnamese took over the South, for the most part Americans didn’t care all that much. It was just a story on the news now and then, but the Democrats continued to control Congress, and Carter became president, so there was no backlash against the Democrats for cutting the funding to the South.
@ Neo “there was no backlash against the Democrats for cutting the funding to the South.”
There was some backlashing, but it never made the news and had little public effect: the blatant betrayal of the South, after the war was essentially won, caused this former supporter of the anti-war movement to start questioning their motives, and actions going forward — and eventually turn away from the left altogether, once I discovered that their every “virtuous cause” was a fraud.
@ Barry – the Crenshaw / Logan report, if true, is despicable.
NTB cites two WaPo stories in support of some rather troubling assertions that may be worse.
https://notthebee.com/article/the-taliban-did-not-take-over-kabul-on-august-15-we-gave-it-to-them-and-i-really-wish-i-was-exaggerating
Aesopfan.
Good hit with NTB.
I’m trying to picture a line graph. One line quantifies “how stupid do you have to be to do this?” The other line quantifies, “How smart do you have to be to get into a position to do this?”
From left to right, the first one curves down. The second one curves upward They cross far short of the Thing done/not done. IOW, if you’re so stupid as to do this, you’re too stupid to get anywhere near a position where you can do this.
Thus, it wasn’t done by foolishness.
I know it’s a metaphor but I think it fairly represents the reality.
Remains the motivation, which in one sense is irrelevant unless you want to predict how the next Thing will go.
It just gets worse:
https://twitter.com/emilymiller/status/1432179085942345730
And worse:
https://twitter.com/Michael_Yon/status/1432221325439893506
AesopFan:
I meant no significant backlash in terms of elections. Democrats continued in overwhelming control for some years, till Reagan. Even then, they continued to control Congress.
@ Neo – “I meant no significant backlash in terms of elections.”
I knew that’s what you meant.
However, it is the stealth backlash that eventuated in Trump’s first election, and may give him (or his surrogate) another one.
AesopFan:
There was no significant “stealth backlash” against the Democrats after our withdrawal from Vietnam. There continued to be huge Democrat majorities in Congress, and Carter became president. Come to think of it, though, Carter’s election was a kind of backlash against Washington insiders. We know how well that turned out. I think both parties were blamed for Vietnam, by the way, so that may have muddied the waters in terms of perceiving it was the Democrats in charge of the final reduction of aid to South Vietnam that led to the North Vietnamese takeover.
@ Neo > ” I think both parties were blamed for Vietnam, by the way, so that may have muddied the waters in terms of perceiving it was the Democrats in charge of the final reduction of aid to South Vietnam that led to the North Vietnamese takeover.”
I think I’ll take that up in an open thread sometime, because the left’s ongoing agendas and operations suggest that the water was deliberately stirred up precisely to muddy the blame game.
I took it up here:
https://www.thenewneo.com/2021/08/31/naked-emperor-biden-tells-us-all-to-admire-his-sparkling-new-suit-of-clothes/#comment-2574488
AesopFan @ Neo > “How much of the MSM will fall in line, and how much will say enough is enough? I don’t yet know, but my guess is that the first category will be far larger than the second.”
They are already at work rewriting the First Draft of History by eliminating all contrary viewpoints.
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