Is this how the new civil war begins?
[Hat tip: commenter Barry Meislin.]
If Biden and the left win next Tuesday, as the polls predict, there won’t be any need for a civil war on the part of the left. But here’s what’s planned if there’s a Trump victory (which is automatically defined as “stealing the election”):
ShutDown D.C. anticipates that 10,000 protesters from a motley assortment of affinity groups will converge at Black Lives Matter Plaza to engage in “civil resistance” if President Trump tries to “steal the election.” A “Flying Bike Squad” is “coming together as a rapid response team,” according to organizers. If it’s anything like the skateboard squads and soup can squads who’ve used everyday items as weapons to beat Trump supporters, look for more blood to spill in the name of “peaceful protest.” Mass disruptions are planned at train stations and airports, on highways and in residential neighborhoods for at least the first full week after Election Day.
“We’ll keep it going until Trump concedes,” ShutDown D.C. threatens in its outline of a “No More Business As Usual” blockade across the country. “We could be in the streets throughout the fall and into the winter — maybe as lots of rolling waves of action or possibly as a few major tsunamis! In other parts of the country, as vote counts conclude, our focus will turn from protecting the vote counts to themselves being ungovernable.”
Here’s what has me especially concerned: The “deep state” Trump-haters are openly gearing up to do everything they can from inside the federal government to assist the resistance. ShutDown D.C. is conducting online training this week with public employees in the nation’s capital to undermine election integrity and the day-to-day work of the Trump administration. A protest guide lists the following subversive federal worker groups as key partners: Takoma Park Mobilization, Alt National Park Service, Alt Ed, AltFDA, Alternative NOAA, Alt U.S. Forest Service, AltEPA and BadHombreLands National Park Service.
What to make of this? As I already stated, they don’t seem to be planning much of anything if Biden wins – which is very telling, actually. And I don’t doubt that if Trump manages to pull out a win, this sort of disruption is what they intend. I’m not the least bit naive about the goals of this crew, which is to tear down the entire structure of the US and replace it with some leftist/anarchist/racialist chaos and horror. They have already done plenty of damage.
But I also wonder if they are exaggerating about the number of demonstrators and insider government forces they have who will actually go through with this. I also wonder what the plans of the Trump administration are, because they certainly must have them. The leftists feel they’re in a win/win situation, anyway, because if Trump were to clamp down hard and demonstrators were to get hurt, that would be used to scream “tyrant” at Trump.
A real tyrant, of course, would simply fire on the demonstrators and/or imprison them all and throw away the key. I doubt that sort of thing will ever happen, and the demonstrators probably would agree. They count on the consequences for their actions being relatively mild.
We also know that Trump-hating government employees have already done a lot to harm Trump, and should assume that they would have no hesitation to continue the practice, since virtually no one has been punished. Note this article published in Vanity Fair in February of 2017, twelve days after Trump’s inauguration:
One Justice Department employee told the Post, “You’re going to see the bureaucrats using time to their advantage,” and added that “people here will resist and push back against orders they find unconscionable,” by whistle-blowing, leaking to the press, and lodging internal complaints. Others are staying in contact with officials appointed by President Obama to learn more about how they can undermine Trump’s agenda and attending workshops on how to effectively engage in civil disobedience, the Post reports.
That Vanity Fair article is entitled “An Anti-Trump Resistance Movement is Growing Within the U.S. Government.” Another excerpt, to give you the flavor of it:
When asked how the opposition emerging at this stage compares to past administrations, Tom Malinowski, who served as Obama’s assistant secretary of state for democracy, human rights and labor, sarcastically told the Post, “Is it unusual?… There’s nothing unusual about the entire national security bureaucracy of the United States feeling like their commander in chief is a threat to U.S. national security. That happens all the time. It’s totally usual. Nothing to worry about.”
Again, remember the date, and understand that Trump had done virtually nothing at that point. And yet people – one of them in this case being a former Obama administration official going on the record – had no hesitation saying that “the entire national security bureaucracy of the United States” feels that Trump is “a threat to U.S. national security.” He doesn’t feel he needs to illustrate why they might feel this; apparently, it’s self-evident why the entire national security bureaucracy feels threatened (and of course it’s ironic that, as time has gone on, Trump has greatly increased our security rather than the opposite).
So, was it their jobs that were actually threatened? Specifically, were they afraid of a shake-up by General Flynn?
I contend that the latter was a big motive for their fear. Flynn had been sworn in as National Security Advisor on January 22. He has been described many times as intending to streamline and improve the security bureaus, and was also very much hated by the Obama administration that had fired him. The bureaus went to work on Flynn, and we know the rest – forced to resign by February 13, twelve days after the Vanity Fair piece was published. And for the next four years these bureaucracies have been dedicated to the attempt to destroy Trump.
So why wouldn’t it all continue in escalated form for a second term, if Trump gets one? And avoiding this is actually one of the suggestions that has been explicit in the Biden campaign, the basic message being: vote for our team and get rid of Trump and all the turmoil will stop.
After witnessing thousands of people stand for hours on a cold Nebraska night yesterday, I’m convinced it will be a landslide EC victory for Trump.
And the Biden Crime Family info is getting out.
I’m rather pessimistic in re scenarios.
A real problem will emerge if internal disorders affect the bond market. Governments are borrowing like mad right now.
Here’s a possible scenario: the loss of institutional cohesion on the part of the military and the security services as the dubious characters in the flag ranks disobey the commander-in-chief and ally with ‘the resistance’ while lower ranks mutiny. At that point it’s Lebanon, 1975. I’m not liking this.
It is hard to believe that even moderate Democrats are so stupid as to imagine that a victory by the corrupt and senile Biden will somehow curtail the chaos and the violence (massive looting in Philadelphia as a “response” to the shooting of a crazed knife-wielding felon by the police) and the metastasizing of the “woke” virus (petulant and ignorant students demanding the removal from Brown of a statue of Marcus Aurelius). All the madness will only intensify should leftists (including AOC and her “squad”) prevail next week.
All the madness will only intensify should leftists (including AOC and her “squad”) prevail next week.
j e: It seems guaranteed either way, sad to say.
If Trump wins, I suspect there will be nationwide riots on up to Thanksgiving, maybe Christmas. Our only friend will be cold weather.
If Trump wins, I say it’s time to do something about this continuing insurrection. People in the Swamp and in the Streets must start being fired or going to jail for their illegal activities.
Serious defunding threats must be posed to educational institutions for their actions against free speech.
“At that point it’s Lebanon, 1975. I’m not liking this.”
Lebanon is a country of around 7 million people packed into 4,000 square miles. The United States is 330 million people over nearly 10 million square miles.
A quick Google search says there’s nearly 500 major generals in the U.S. armed forces and maybe around 900 generals total. What’s the absolute minimum necessary for any sort of real effort to overturn/disregard an elected President? 200? 300?
I don’t want to pick a fight with Art Deco, who is way more knowledgeable about the history of this sort of thing than I am, but I continue to be astounded at how much of our national political discourse is conducted with ZERO reference to or understanding of just how big the United States is and how much power and authority is distributed down through our system. Liberals are the worst. Listen to or read anything from them and it becomes clear they genuinely think the U.S. is made up of about a dozen or so major cities existing in a void with nothing between them.
I don’t mean they arrogantly dismiss the rest of the country. They literally don’t understand that it actually exists. Wyoming is a real to them as Narnia.
Mike
A little discussed executive order was issued last week where Trump is having high level civil servants put in a new category called SCHEDULE F employees. They would become “at will” employees and lose their civil service protected status. This tells me that the Trump administration is finding it’s footing and is tackling the deep state by taking on the ones who are the “resistance” ala Page, Ciaramella and Strzok. Needless to say there are howls coming out of the Federal Civil Service and the Democrats. As in every decision there is upside and downside. The upside is that the administration can bend the Federal Bureaucracy to it’s will faster. But imagine if it was the OBAMA administration. Of course the same result would probably happen. Another benefit putting people in place that don’t have to be Senate confirmed so you can hit the ground running. This president is not going to rest in his second term and play a lot of golf with something like this going in place.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/23/politics/trump-executive-order-federal-employees/index.html
(CNN)President Donald Trump signed an executive order that appears to provide him and his agency appointees more leeway in the hiring and firing of federal employees deemed disloyal, a move that critics say politicizes civil service and could lead to career officials being pushed out for political reasons.
The President has vilified some career officials as the “deep state” during his term and sought to rid the federal government of people he views as anti-Trump. Critics warn that the order would allow the President to fill the federal workforce with his cronies and reverts the country back to a spoils systems.
The executive order, issued Wednesday, creates a new classification of federal employees titled “Schedule F” for employees serving in “confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating positions” that typically do not change during a presidential transition.
The White House says the directive will give federal agencies more flexibility to hire “Schedule F” employees but also be able to remove “poor performers” from these roles without going through a lengthy appeals process.
The push back was fierce, with the largest union for federal employees calling the order the “most profound undermining of the civil service in our lifetimes.”
When I googled for this information the first 10 were all negative reviews by the news organization or think tanks. On the 11th entry was the White House announcement. I find that a bit interesting.
The signs that a real, enduring, and pervasive civil war is underway will be when local Democrat officials, academics, and politicians in small and medium cities are shot to death when walking across their lawns to the mailbox. This would also include lifer bureaucrats and members of the propaganda press on all levels: local, state, and national.
That and other targeted assassinations of notable Democrats on all levels of government will be signs we are in a guerilla civil war.
Should rioting mobs appear in the wrong streets, neighborhoods, and suburbs it’s going to be the mob’s pistols against scoped deer rifles at about 200 to 300 yards away.
It’s not going to be line up and shoot at each other’s brigades. It’s going to be very nasty and unclean and it will burn through the nation like a root fire after the election flare-up.
Huxley notes: “People in the Swamp and in the Streets must start being fired or going to jail for their illegal activities”
Nope. It will require fire. “Only through fire is fascism finished.”
In the same vein, the AntiFa Anarchists are also gearing up for post-election mayhem in the cities:
https://crimethinc.com/2020/10/27/everybody-out-resources-for-a-season-of-post-election-unrest
…”Whether Trump tries to steal the election or Biden wins and tries to continue the same policies, we can come together to stop them. Here, we offer a selection of resources to prepare for post-electoral unrest, including posters, primers on protest and security skills, and information about what different groups are organizing around the country. Everybody out!”
…”A Biden victory is not the end of this struggle; it is just the beginning of a new chapter. If Biden becomes president, on January 20, we should mobilize at ICE detention facilities and police stations and prisons to show that our opposition to all of these racist and oppressive institutions will continue until they are abolished.”
So there is no choice but to riot whomever wins or doesn’t, whatever the winner does or doesn’t do. The only possible winner is a Marxist government, I guess. Scroll down! It’s interesting reading….
I think the real threat is coming from whatever organization is underwriting this chaos, and the origin of its funding (which I am guessing are bad actors like Iran / China etc). They just want to see the demoralizing effects of mayhem on American citizens, whoever wins.
So far, the number of Texans who have cast their vote in Early Voting is over 90% of the 2016 Total Vote., with a few days left then Election Day.
Personally I think that anyone who responds to such a remarkable turnout with a rebuke or with contempt (i.e. riots etc.), is going to ultimately face a lot of very angry voters who have formerly been quite patient, but have had enough now that they have peacefully cast a vote. We shall see.
“Only through fire is fascism finished.”
GVDL: I fear that is so, sir, but I advise against plunging ahead to that extremity immediately.
There are 3 possibilities I see happening. And if i am right 2 will end up with riots AT A MINIMUM.
1) Biden wins outright by a decent margin. If the polls are correct (something I highly doubt). Then things will proceed as normal. And a standard transition of power will occur.
2) Trump wins outright. The left will not accept this and we will move to the riot and violence phase. Depending upon how effect law enforcement is. Things may become more violent. Or stay at a level we have become used to seeing.
3) Trump Wins…and we are forced to watch his totals shrink as more ballots are found. This is the one scenario where I think the right starts the fight. As it has been obvious this entire year that massive fraud was the goal. And they have made no attempts at hiding it.
I wish I saw other alternatives But it does not seem to me there are any. And as evidenced by gun and ammo sales, emergency food sales water etc. There is a large portion of the electorate that seems to agree with me. Hope I am wrong but I am preparing as if I am right.
“One Justice Department employee told the Post, “You’re going to see the bureaucrats using time to their advantage,”
Isn’t that a libertarian dream – bureaucrats who do nothing?
I note that the figure of an estimated 300 or even 400 million guns in the hands of people here in the U.S. is often cited.
In addition, there were almost 29 million background checks by the FBI for firearms purchases this year, just thorough the month of September.
The New York Times recently reported that 15.1 million guns had been bought so far this year.
There has also been a reported ten fold increase in the number of people in this country who have a concealed carry permit–from 2 million ten years ago to somewhere around 20 million or more today.
Gerard – That is a glum and angry statement. When there is no money to pay the overclass and they face loss of privilege and status then there will be hell to pay…for the Democrats. They are the ones who promised all these benefits. So it will be progressives shooting progressives. In Totalitarian parties there have been violent struggles and purges. The rest of us will go on with our lives. This debt crisis is real and coming. This lockdown has accelerated the decline and reckoning date.
Also as I have repeatedly stated, violence will be in Progressive strongholds. The police and authorities in the suburbs will not put up with it. So it will be the immolation of their own power base. So if that is the fire you mean then I concur. Also you know the Federal GVT and states are planning for this too. Their actions can quash the organized part of the riots. Plus, cold weather is coming.
Who will suffer the most. The minorities to broke to leave. In Philly a store that was looted in July just opened up three weeks prior and was looted again. Think that store will come back? I remember a black woman crying in Minneapolis because her grocery store, CVS was destroyed.
One wishes it were all hyperbole. A case of excessive imagination. Too much excitement.
But Trump (and his team) HAS to be ready to counter the expected, widespread violence. To have plans in place and people on the ground or ready to move in and move in quickly.
(Governors and mayors, ditto…except that in too many cases, Democratic governors and mayors are either encouraging the violence, denying it, turning a blind eye to it, and/or blaming it on Trump. So how can they be expected to be ready? Well, maybe ready to foment more of it….)
On the other hand, how does one plan for violent, no-holds-barred anarchy?
Ah, for the good, old days of 2009 when Hollywood celebrities got all dewy-eyed, loving and patriotic over Obama’s election.
–“I Pledge” (2009)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYGUnR0wiCw
Hard to believe it was 12 years ago.
I sort of miss that. At least someone was happy over Obama and maybe they might make some good come of it. Maybe all the “no red, no blue, America” talk meant something.
Of course, that’s not how it went. Liberals were only happy if they were winning and if not, anyone in the way was a terrible problem.
I watch this video every year or two as juxtaposition to how these same people are shrieking bloody murder today.
Snow on Pine-
The best indicator to me has been the near complete unavailability of ammunition. Its rarely available any place. When it is the cost is roughly four times the cost it was last year. And most places have limited you to 2 boxes.
I had a discussion with someone who works for one of the biggest re-loaders of ammunition in my area. They do local, county and state reloads for the police departments. According to him, even with his connections. Powder and primers are nearly impossible to find. Even with Covid slowing down the number of people able to shoot. He is at least 4-5 months behind filling orders.
Just out of curiosity, looked at the website of our local gun store, which does a good local business and also an apparently thriving national business, and usually has dozens and dozens of pages each of handguns, shotguns, AR-15s, etc., in stock.
In the handgun section they had a couple of pages of low to medium priced handguns, then some very expensive ones supposedly “in stock,” and then everything else–for pages and pages–was “out of stock,” and I’d bet that, if you showed up to buy, even some of the weapons that were listed as being available would also turn out to be “out of stock.”
Same general situation for shotguns, notably with pump shotguns being “out of stock.”
A lot of AR15s out of stock as well, .
“…dubious characters in the flag ranks disobey the commander-in-chief and ally with ‘the resistance’ while lower ranks mutiny.”
No.
The flag ranks would be the ones conducting the mutiny, while the lower ranks would be obeying the lawful orders of their Commander-in-Chief.
There is not enough density of population for a civil war..
There IS enough density for a heck of a lot of trouble when not taken care of
and there IS a hell of a lot more people who would oppose them and defend against them if things really got hotter… they are all well and good when attacking buildings and police who are forced to stand there… but when it comes to actual engagement, they are dismal… even with firearms… they would be dismal…
they are in a cosplay larping session in which they feel they are doing something and are not really doing anything.. (looters are just taking advantage of the situation)…
Maybe I shouldn’t say this however I am not applying for a job and I imagine that I am on “their” radar anyway. I now carry anytime I go into town. I just did a count of my ammo. Doing OK in .38, could use more .45. Have a few boxes of 30-30 an 7mm. Pistol also uses 410. My neighborhood is mostly conservative and is VERY well armed. We even have a backhoe.
I am very worried about how things may happen. My Wife is beyond worry to the fear stage.
I can’t express my thoughts on the potential of civil war and the downfall of the republic better than something Kurt Schlichter posted on Twitter today:
“Oh, it’s not an empire yet. That phase may be coming. And Augustus would not be some lib sissy who can’t choose the right bathroom.”
https://twitter.com/KurtSchlichter/status/1321562180609667072
Mike
There is not enough density of population for a civil war..
There was enough in 1861, when the population of the continental United States was 1/10th of what it is today.
The population of the conflict is not there..
and its not split along a clear line of geography or race either..
the people in one group are likely to attack themselves in the absence of clear opposition
however, the biggest thing or clearest lines are the incompetent disaffected against the able and competent…
this is the problem with the demographics of this conflict.. the people who are protesting and throwing stuff, and looting are not the most able or smartest… where the conflict is over some other point, like slavery, then both sides have a pretty high set of able and competent people… when the conflict is over things like working, ability to earn, ability to succeed… then their isnt much of a conflict… ergo the proud boys tend to win once they are attacked… they are the able middle class, and the leftists are the disaffected, lazy, less able… even if college educated because college is very narrow education.. . also this sect of people have yet to see brutal forces turn to them… i do not believe they would have the heart in a conflict in which real damage and real brutal force is turned on them, and where many of them get seriously hurt or even die… they whine about bean bags and smoke they think is tear gas…
as i said.. its a cosplay larping festival… till it isnt..
just a few years ago we were making fun of the feminist males, the vegetarian warriors, and pajama boy… now we are afraid of them?
Dodger:
You of all people can do better than this. Shall we talk about the population density of the Basque Country during and after their Late Unpleasantness?
For the n^kth time: The War Between the States has less than zero predictive or historical rhyming value to what may be coming down the pike. Spain, Yugoslavia are more to the point. No matter how things play out in the longer run, reading up on what happened to people who happened to be in the wrong places with the wrong histories (and in Yug’s case wrong ethnicity) on Day 0 and weeks following is sobering and illuminating.
A quick troll around YouTube to see what drones in the hands of state and non-state actors can do to make your day suck more is also worthwhile.
The great unknown in the USA is that never before has there been such a well-armed population in such a state of imminent societal breakdown. Quantity has a quality all of its own, but how this plays out (if it does) will be revelatory to all sides.
I’m trying to learn more about the left and it’s history, could someone give me a less right wing summary of lenin, stalin and mao?
everything i learned about those 3 in U.S. history at my high school last year was that they were awful brutal dictators who slaughtered millions. is this fully based in truth, or is the information skewed by right wing imperialists? i’m not sure where to get this information, and i’ve been curious about lenin’s history since a popular leftist i follow on twitter recommended one of his books on a list for what to read in terms of theory, and was confused as to why someone would promote his work if he was such a bad leader. and sorry if i sound like an idiot if they are actually awful dictators and everything is true, i just want to know as much as i can. i appreciate any info or feedback, thank you! i just want to learn so i can be better equipped to teach others about the left n stuff
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onedollarcobra 69 points · 4 days ago
The question is a bit broad, but simply put—yes, right wing imperialists flagrantly lie about life under Soviet Russia and all socialist governments because socialist revolutions represent a grave threat to the ruling class’ interests (staying in power to do more imperialism to accumulate more wealth).
The reality of all three of the men that you listed is that they all played indispensable roles in socialist revolutions that rapidly developed illiterate agrarian societies that couldn’t satisfy the needs of the people into literate industrial societies that lifted millions out of poverty & ended homelessness. They were not perfect men, and mistakes were surely made, but it’s important to understand them all in the context of their time and the various phenomenon surrounding their respective times in power—they all accomplished a lot.
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Felipe_FdC 6 points
After the Fall of the USSR, a “Winners” Rethoric prevailed, trying to resume the Socialist System to Totalitarianism and Mass Killing. Nowadays there is more opening for research and debate in Universities to produce new content. But still a difficult topic. Sooo, you must always trust in your critical sense and interpretation skills (Like, is possible to Stalin kill 50 million in a country with 200m and Russia still exists?) to take away propaganda from good analyses, even from a Western/Eastern perspective. Everything has a intention when produced, trying to identify it is a good starting path.
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strawbabyistaken 4 points
Also, remember that the black book of communism, which counts communist deaths, has been retracted by the co authors because the main author was counting nazi and famine deaths as well. Not a summary, but just wanted to add to the “brutal dictators who killed millions” bit.
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follow_your_leader 68 points · 6 days ago
Communism is the later stage of socialism, which is when the productive forces of the economy are under the control of workers and private property is seized by the people instead of being hoarded by individuals to enrich themselves. Communism is the abolition of private property, (not to be confused with personal property, private property is property that generates wealth, like a factory or a studio or a retail store). Communism is defined as a classless, moneyless society in which the economy is planned, instead of being dependent on markets, and the planning is intended to provide for everyone in society according to their needs.
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once the ladies endeavored to make us ‘equal’ they made the girls equally dumb and the boys dumber to preserve equal superiority… you see, the gulags and all that are lies… so communism isnt bad, and socialism is just a better way… of course the wealthy dont want it, which is why the wealthiest people are the ones paying to have it happen.. eh?
Thank Reddit for the examples…
Let’s say you want to start a bakery, how would that go about in a Communist society? Who would you need to talk to?
Let’s say you’re passionate about baking, who do you have to talk to if you wanna open a nice bakery? Is the bakery state-owned?
Let’s say that you live in a small town without another bakery in it. I’d imagine that you could petition to some authority (like the town council or whatever administration system they have in place) to build a bakery. If they decided that having a town bakery would be worthwhile then the process of constructing the bakery could begin. You could probably work with/on the council (or maybe some kind of subcouncil, or even a public forum open to everybody, but the important thing is that the decisions are made in a way that best represents the community) to decide the particulars of the construction. You would need to determine such factors as: the size of the building, the location of the building, whether it would be a new building or maybe be located inside of an existing structure, the expected output of the bakery, hardware needed, supply connections for the bakery or where the materials will come from, amount of workers needed for the bakery, etc.
Because private property ownership is nonexistent the considerations for the building would have to be made in terms of what would be best for the community, and not in terms of you “owning” the bakery and doing with it want you personally want. You would not be the recipient of any “excess profit” (reminder that our society is moneyless), and in fact, would not even necessarily be a manager for the bakery. All the work of creating the bakery and integrating it into the society would be a completely separate task from the day-to-day running of it.
One important consideration for the bakery would need to be the internal hierarchy of workers. It could be decided that the bakery would have a manager, and bakers, and supply managers, or whatever, but it could also be decided that the business just needs x amount of workers that would run the business cooperatively. This would be up to the decision of the administrative body (council or whatever)
Once all those decisions are made it could be that you are chosen to work at or manage the bakery, but again, you wouldn’t own it and would be compensated in terms of what would be fair for your labor. You would not be able to sell the bakery or have any sort of final say in any of the goings on of it. From the point it is created, it belongs to everybody and is run according to what is best for the whole community.
I guess TLDR is:
YOU can’t make and own a bakery, but maybe you could participate or even take the lead in its creation by the community and for the community.
Once it is made, you could be one of the people to work there.
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420freya 26 points · 5 days ago
and there is no pressure to make profit from hobbies under communism. it doesn’t have to be a “side hustle”, you can just enjoy what you do and not worry that it’s a waste of your time because it isn’t producing profit.
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Considering we are in a communist society, you have enough resources to bake your own “cakes”. You may be really good at baking, so some of your friends and family even give you some of their resources for you to bake them really good cakes.
If your cakes are the absolute best in your community, even better than the ones that are currently baked at the local bakery (if there is one), or if they are a different kind not available at the local bakery, then you would go to your communities representative or the body of government that is in charge of producing food or specifically cakes, and you would show them your “product”. If the body of government (which is run by people from your community) determines that your product would bring positive value for your community, they would then start planning a way for you to mass produce your cakes, and so, they would build “your” (in reality it would be everyones) bakery.
This example kinda shows you how innovation does not die or get stifled without capitalism. In fact, if you remove the profit based goal and give people tools to be creative and innovate (open source tools), innovation would be everywhere and in benefit of everyone.
@MBunge:
It’s been an Empire since Manila Bay and triply so since 1945. Or were you asleep?
Empires do not need to strut around in Parade Armour to be empires. You can have an empire without tributary states having to show up once a year bearing gifts. Come to think of it, Augustus went out of his way to preserve the external trappings of Republicanism.
Had the USA remained the Empire abroad and (semi pretend Constitutional Republic) at home of the 1950s, the slow motion collapse of the Pax Americana would be bad enough for everyone.
Problem is that the USA on its home turf is now a multi-ethnic empire with more parallels to late Ottomans than Tricorn hats, fifes and drums. The dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire was a major factor in the acceleration of the terrible collapse in Western Civ that we are all having to go along on the ride with no matter where we live on this rock.
Next 100 years are going to be a Shit Show about which bards will sing in caves. Let’s at least hope that they won’t be rapping about They Ho Penelopay.
artfldgr:
Thanks. Zaphod not so much.
huxley, I hadn’t seen that “pledge” thing for some time. I remember thinking when it was released that it was really weird and sort of proto-fascist. Not the pledge to help old people, blah blah blah, but the yoking of those intentions with the intention of “being of service to our president.” I remember telling people at the time that it was sort of a litmus test: whether you find the video somewhat creepy says a lot about what kind of country you think you live in, what the office of the president is for, and so on. I’ve been saying for a long time that the natural desire and condition of mankind is to be ruled by a monarch. Clearly that video shows it. I don’t advocate that, of course, but I fear that our ideals of self-government will in the long run prove to be something of an anomaly.
I don’t know how people didn’t see Mussolini in that famous Obama poster, either.
I pledge to be a servant to our president and all mankind
Mac: Indeed, that was a creepy video, though oddly compelling. I found the whole “Obama as Messiah” business weird and un-American. See:
http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com
The 1960 election elevated JFK to Frank Sinatra, but not Jesus Christ. America has never treated a presidential candidate like that before. It gave me the willies.
Interestingly, from what I can tell the original “I Pledge” video was taken down long ago and all that remains are copies people uploaded which are heavily ratio’d in the comments.
I don’t think any of those celebrities wishes to be reminded of what they said and pledged twelve years ago.
Iowahawk did a great send-up:
https://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/01/i-pledge.html
Battle lines are drawn (see #2 in the link below):
https://twitter.com/DanCrenshawTX/status/1321482045818834944
H/T Sean Davis twitter feed
Next 100 years are going to be a Shit Show about which bards will sing in caves.
Zaphod: I take it you are not waiting up nights for the “Singularity.”
See this–https://www.dailywire.com/news/expensify-ceo-tells-10-million-customers-to-vote-for-biden-or-face-possible-civil-war-clients-pummel-him
@Barry Meislin:
One of Trump’s problems is that he has to know by now that any contingency plans will be leaked and spun by traitors and sellouts before the election — catastrophic.
So all his actions until the balloon really goes up have to be reactive. And being devil’s advocate, this rather suits Trump anyway given that meticulous planning and grand strategic sweep are hardly his strong points. I happen to think that these two things are vastly overrated anyway at the current point in the historical cycle, so all is not lost.
Slightly related: David Goldman has an article up at PJ Media on why Henry Kissinger is a Dick. Obviously because he represents tendency to problematize and nuance everything up the wazoo rather than just go at the occasional Gordian Knot to encourage the others and, you know, actually Get Things Done. It’s not like any thinking person needs this explained by now, but it might be worth sending the link to Boomers Grazing Peacefully in their Alpine Meadows.
Silly to try to look ahead too far, but if things really go South, eventually Trump will be a footnote in history even if Our (Broad Church, no?) side prevails. I don’t see him emerging from this as the God Emperor. Who was Putin in 1991?
@huxley:
Hehe… Fair to say that I’m not parked on my billionaire posterior in Palo Alto popping $10,000 worth of supplements per week in the hope of achieving personal actuarial escape velocity.
I mean, nice work if you can get it!
Singularity: The lengths to which otherwise smart people will go to to reinvent God(s) and Immortality never ceases to amaze me.
Mac, I’m with you and huxley. I found the “pledge” video disturbing when it was released.
“We’ll keep it going until Trump concedes,” ShutDown D.C. threatens in its outline of a “No More Business As Usual” blockade across the country.”
On the safe assumption that Trump decisively wins… (“Trump Draws Thousands to Campaign Rallies in Arizona, Kamala Harris Draws ‘Approximately 100’” https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/10/28/trump-draws-thousands-to-campaign-rallies-in-arizona-kamala-harris-draws-approximately-100/
” Buoyed by blacks and independent voters, as well as urban dwellers shocked by the Black Lives Matter protest violence raging in some cities, President Trump’s approval rating has hit a new high, according to a survey heavy with minority voters.
The latest Zogby Poll just shared with Secrets had Trump’s approval at 52%. “The president has recorded his best job approval rating on record,” said pollster Jonathan Zogby.”
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/trump-pops-to-52-best-job-approval-rating-on-record-up-with-blacks-even-democrats
Shutdown DC is delusional in thinking they can get a lawfully elected Trump to concede.
Wait and see, in response to the rioting Trump’s going to invoke the Insurrection Act and nationalize the National Guard. As the legally elected President, the military has to follow his lawful orders.
Any military personnel who refuse to follow his lawful orders or who declare Trump’s orders to be unlawful will be at risk of charges of mutiny during an Insurrection. The S.C. would then rule on the lawfulness of Trump’s orders and if upheld those ‘resistant’ military personnel would be found guilty of mutiny and treason. Execution by firing squad would then be their fate.
If Congressional democrats try to impeach Trump, they too will arguably, be guilty of Insurrection. How sweet will it be to see Federal Marshalls leading Schiff, AOC, Pelosi, et al out of Congress in handcuffs?
Yes, that would precipitate a Constitutional crisis. But so too will civil war. And absent decisive and extraordinary actions by Trump that will be what awaits us all in the not too distant future.
https://pics.me.me/in-reality-theyre-not-after-me-theyre-after-you-im-66915973.png
It’s been an Empire since Manila Bay and triply so since 1945. Or were you asleep?
It’s nothing of the kind, and never was, except in the palaeotrash imagination. Our overseas dependencies contain all of 1.5% of the population living under the American flag, and they interest therein in being sovereign is minimal. As for the Philippines, it was never intended to be an abiding possession and as of 1922 its population was all of 12% of that of the continental United States. In absolute terms, we were less invested in foreign dependencies than Britain, France, the Netherlands, or Japan; in relative terms we were less so than Germany and Belgium as well. And, of course, we never attempted to assemble anything which resembled the Tsarist, Hapsburg, or Ottoman realms.
As for American garrisons abroad, they’ve encompassed between 13% and 30% of all billets since 1946 and with very few exceptions were scarcely enough in any one place to occupy a recalcitrant province, much less a whole country.
Re the pledge video: I didn’t recognize any of the celebrities. Guess that means I haven’t spent any money in the last 20 years on products that would have enriched those celebrities.
Definitely creepy to pledge to be of service to Obama or to “our president.”
It would be interesting to ask them a decade later precisely how they had been of service to “our President,” and if that pledge of service to “our President” extended to President Trump.
I found the “pledge to use less bottled water” rather comical, as I don’t purchase bottled water.
Some of the pledges I agreed with.
Thank you Art+Deco for providing compelling statistics in support of my own belief, America has never had an Empire. Nor as long as she remains America will she ever have an Empire.
It’s the Left that has long slandered America with that lie.
@Geoffrey Britain:
It’s not a slander and it’s not a lie. It’s just a value neutral fact. A Rose by any other Name, and all that.
PS: United States Africa Command for Art Deco on Line 3.
Sorry Zaphod, just because you have an opinion, that doesn’t make it a fact. The Japanese assumed that the US Navy would sally forth to retake the Phillipines, our “empire” instead the Navy took it to them at Coral Sea (-), Midway (++), and Guadalcanal. The Japanese had their empire, we never have.
Re the pledge video: I didn’t recognize any of the celebrities.
Gringo: I knew some from watching “Friends.” (All right, I watched it. I even enjoyed it. Can we move on already?)
Iowahawk rang the changes on that in his parody:
______________________________________________________
Courtney Cox and her husband, what’s-his-name: I pledge.
Demi Moore: I pledge.
Cameron Diaz: Me pledge too!!
Courtney Cox: To end hunger in America.
Mr. Courtney Cox: By ordering smaller endive portions from craft services.
Some guy with baseball cap that I guess I’m supposed to know: I pledge.
Stringy-haired Manson girl with creepy gray eyes: I pledge.
Demi Moore: Too-ooo-oo smile more.
Eva Longoria: To laugh more!
Can’t quite place her, but think I maybe saw her on a cosmetics commercial once: [intense glare] to LOVE more….
https://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/01/i-pledge.html
Montage’s last appearance set off a train of thought for me. David Solway at PJM sums it up well:
__________________________________________________________
If Trump and the Republicans survive on November 3, as I hope and suspect they will, certain policies will have to be enacted to ensure that the country never again approaches the brink of social, political and economic perdition as it has in recent times, most emphatically engineered by the administration of Barack Obama premised on the “radical transformation” of America. And these policies will need to be draconian. Leftist sentiment will always exist, but the institutional left will have to be extirpated root and branch.
In other words, the gloves will have to come off and the institutional power sources engaged in the destabilization of the country must be put to bed once and for all. A reckoning must come.
__________________________________________________________
Amen, but even with a mandate and the gloves off, Trump will have his hands full.
Link for above:
–David Solway, “If Trump Wins, There Must Be a Reckoning for the Destructive Left”
https://pjmedia.com/columns/david-solway-2/2020/10/28/if-trump-wins-there-must-be-a-reckoning-for-the-destructive-left-n1103880
Re: Ammunition. I don’t have a source for this but I read once that the U.S. military used about 10 billion rounds of small arms ammo during WWII. That was for the entire war. Modern ammunition production in the U.S. was reported as about 12 billion rounds per year. I suspect that a significant portion of that 12 billion rounds (per year) has not been expended but has been stockpiled — and has been for quite a few years. So: 400 million plus guns and several tens of billions of rounds of ammunition. And the powers that be have no idea where most of it is.
As Larry Correia put it:
A friend of mine who is a political activist said something interesting the other day, and that was for most people on the left political violence is a knob, and they can turn the heat up and down, with things like protests, and riots, all the way up to destruction of property, and sometimes murder… But for the vast majority of folks on the right, it’s an off and on switch. And the settings are Vote or Shoot Fucking Everybody. And believe me, you really don’t want that switch to get flipped, because Civil War 2.0 would make Bosnia look like a trip to Disneyworld.
I doubt there would be a civil war. We are deeply divided politically as a country, but not geographically, and not socially – and critically, all the uprising we have seen, while it has foreign funding and support, is very limited in scope and would be impossible to sustain at scale in the face of professional opposition. Critically: Our military is not divided, nor is its leadership and rank & file in question with respect to their loyalty to the executive.
More likely we will have a period of sustained insurrection that is limited to Democratic urban areas and designed to show maximum effect to an indulgent media. And incidentally – if Trump wanted to, he could end any of these virtually over night. I suspect all of them have already been infiltrated and profiled completely. I suspect after the election, if Trump wins his tolerance will be reset.
@ huxley, on ” even with a mandate and the gloves off, Trump will have his hands full.”
He’ll have one more card: a slew of leads etc. for Barr to pursue, vs. Biden Inc., the Deep State, and the co-conspirators in the MSM and Higher Ed establishments.
Yep… that Larry Correia quote sounds about right. Whitey can put up with a lot of provocation and let things slide for a long time, but when he flips…
And the Left doesn’t get this.
America has been an imperial power since 1898, albeit a reluctant one. Primarily it was to keep Imperial Germany from gobbling up the Spanish Empire after we destroyed their overseas military and naval power. And we soon regretted it.
The first effort to ditch the Philippines was vetoed by the Philippine National Assembly.
We got back to the Philippines as fast as we could even though strategically they should have been bypassed. MacArthur was adamant that they be liberated as soon as possible as we were obligated for their defense until independence.
Sorry but we didn’t get back to the Philippines until late October 1944, Leyte Gulf. Political considerations indeed played a part. It wasn’t an as fast as possible thing.
Sorry Zaphod but it is a slander and a lie. America has established bases around the world as both a defensive strategy and as a necessary means of enforcing the Pax Americana. It is that to which you point as evidence of our imperial ambitions. But there is a great deal of difference between a military base subject to a local government’s agreement and outright control of other countries.
Empire: “an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority”
The Left has long maintained America to be an ’empire’ because by definition it invalidates our claim to be supportive of self-governance by the consent of the governed.
Prior to the formation of the Commonwealth, Great Britain had an Empire and her subject states were ruled by the British government.
Chases Eagles,
America has been a world power since 1898. But not an imperial power.
Imperial: “of, relating to, befitting, or suggestive of an empire or an emperor.”
Words have meaning. Unless of course you subscribe to Humpty Dumpty’s definition; “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – – that’s all.”
huxley,
David Solway is a treasure and one of the most perceptive pundits extant. In this, he is entirely correct. To ignore his assessment of what must be done would be a grave mistake. Quite possibly, a fatal one.
Aggie,
“Our military is not divided, nor is its leadership and rank & file in question with respect to their loyalty to the executive.”
Our military is indeed divided, the upper echelons are loyal to the democrat party. The rank & file are divided but to a much lesser degree. That’s a result of Obama’s purge of the upper echelons and his administration’s institutional transformation of the military. It’s far more infiltrated than many realize; all the military academies and somewhat into the lower ranks.
Nor are military personnel loyal to the executive but rather to the Constitution. It is the Constitution that directs the military to follow the President’s lawful orders.
Om, What? How?
Geoffrey Britain
Imperialism NOUN
the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas
Choose what ever word you want but that is what we were doing. Case in point Panama Canal Zone.
Chases Eagles;
Just that the Philippines weren’t the primary path to defeat Japan. The US pursued two paths, Southern Pacific and Central Pacific.
If you call it an empire it was a particularly tiny example of an empire by world standards.
Chases Eagles,
The key words in that definition are “direct territorial acquisitions” and “control over the political or economic life”.
I discount “other areas” as being so vague as to mean whatever is wished.
On a geostrategic level, what “direct territorial acquisitions” have we made? Understanding that to mean full control of a state or territory external to the United States. Geostrategic being a necessary quality to maintenance of an empire.
What external territories do we have full “control over the political [and] economic life”? As there must be control over both to have control over either.
Name one territory, such as Guam, Puerto Rico, etc. where we would deny a ‘divorce’ from association with America if both the local government and a clear majority voted in a plebiscite to do so?
Understanding that no Empire can remain an empire that allows that freedom?
All of which disproves the conditions necessary to the claim that America is an empire.
om, That is evasive. I know what what we did. I would like to know how it could have been done faster. Please be more specific. Military history is a passion of mine and I am always interested in alternate history.
Our empire is the largest the world has ever seen. It is an empire of the mind. And the whole world practically wants to come here. Once you have watched Alf with Dutch sub-titles or Star Trek TOS dubbed in French…
PS: we paid for and built the Panama Canal Zone and did so with the full agreement of the Panamanian government. Then when they demanded it back, we gave it to them. That is not the behavior of an Imperial power.
PSS: An “Empire of the mind“?
Ah… Humpty Dumpty makes himself known.
How are we defining the term “empire,” please?
Does it have to be a state power that reminds us of “The Empire” in Star Wars?
Must it have an Emperor?
Or is the point that it exerts power beyond its territorial boundaries?
I’d be very afraid, and perhaps a bit ashamed, to be citizen of a country that lacked any ability to project power beyond its territorial boundaries. Such a state could only avoid being absorbed by a larger hostile power by being a client-state of a larger less-hostile power.
At any rate, the critical question on nearly every occasion is, “As opposed to what?” Understanding what the alternative was is the best way to appreciate whether some historical behavior of a nation-state was/is wicked or virtuous.
With the backing of the United States, Panama seceded from Colombia in 1903, allowing the construction of the Panama Canal to be completed by the US Army Corps of Engineers between 1904 and 1914. No imperialism there. Nope no sirree.
Why are we arguing about this? who cares what we call it. Ours is the most powerful thing ever. Our culture reaches every corner of the world. Everyone wants our money. We have been to the moon. No empire has had the power, reach and influence that what ever we are has had. And in my opinion it has been on the whole a good thing.
sleepyness here.
I think the argument of whether the US is an empire fails to engage the ambiguous situation that America has some characteristics of an empire and lacks others. Chases Eagles said “America has been an imperial power since 1898, albeit a reluctant one.” We don’t go for territorial empire like the Romans or the Chinese – expanding from a centre outwards. We are much more like the British empire – based on naval power and extending commercial influence everywhere we can. In my own long term speculation we may be seen as an extension of the British Empire and a key player in an emerging world power called The Anglosphere. (If Trump wins will Boris stiff the EU and sign a huge trade deal with the US?) But one critical difference from the British Empire is that since WW2 we have systematically allowed former enemies – eg Japan, Germany – and others – eg China – to trade with us on favorable terms. A policy that Trump has, in my opinion, rightly said we have to stop doing going forward. But I think the US was right to pursue that policy to get the world back on its feet after the ruin of the depression and two world wars. I am not arguing that it was simply altruistic, we have been making good money out of is since 1945, but at the same time we attempted to build a viable international economic order based win win rather than the traditional imperial model of we win you lose.
Chases Eagles:
I’m not going to argue about what if’s and alternative history. Sorry.
On another difference of opinion in the above rich comment thread I wanted to say that since moving to Australia I have come to have a different view of WW2 in the Pacific.
Again to quote Chases Eagles;
“Just that the Philippines weren’t the primary path to defeat Japan. The US pursued two paths, Southern Pacific and Central Pacific.”
From an Australian perspective the Southern Pacific view comes into much sharper focus. The path leads straight north up the Kokoda Trail from Port Moresby to the reconquest of the Philippines. That MacArthur had vowed to return to the Phillipines put him partly at odds with the east to west thrust in Nimitz’s Central Pacific command. I think the Southern Pacific path only occurred because MacArthur was an exceptional military leader and essentially beyond total central control from Washington. Sheer distance played a part but he also had a geopolitical power base because he had the support and cooperation of the Australian people and government behind him in pursuing that distinct south to north path. Looking north from Australia, disemboweling the southern underbelly of the Japanese Empire makes perfect sense. The best single account I know by an American soldier who was one of the key leaders under McArthur, is by his Air Force commander General George Kenney. His account is entitled “General Kenney Reports” and is readily available. It was originally published in 1949 and has the advantage of immediacy as well as being remarkably honest about good and bad performance both allied and Japanese – and how close run a battle it actually was. It is also a cracking great read and a reminder of what Americans (and Australians) are capable of when aroused.
Chases Eagles,
There’s a difference between a political power play, ala Panama and Columbia and “control over the political or economic life”… your words. My disagreement with you and objection to claiming America to be an empire centers solely upon it invalidating our claim to be supportive of self-governance by the consent of the governed.
Just as the definition of words matters, so too does refraining from fundamentally contradicting the principles upon which we are based. As I explained, the definition of “empire” and America’s behavior simply doesn’t fit that term. And it is the Left that has pushed that lie.
On the other hand, I fully agree that on the whole America has been and still is the greatest force for good … ever and, the only force capable of keeping humanity from descending into a dark age unimaginable in its evil.
Civil society has thus far beheld its strange woke children as laboratory engineered curiosities. Hearing their race-obsessed rantings, we wonder how destructive they may eventually become. We know that our votes for and especially our contributions to Trump will further provoke them. But we proceed anyway – in part out of the aforementioned curiosity.
In anticipation of civil unrest that could disrupt our food supply, I returned from the grocery this evening with bags of nonperishables. Hoping the expected tantrums fall short of such dire levels, quality snacks were also obtained. Let us, therefore, be prudent, but nonetheless prepared to take in the spectacle of blue cities inflicting yet more righteous vengeance upon themselves.
And may the Good Lord have mercy on us all.
“We don’t believe in the Good Lord,” protest the woke children.
Of course they don’t. He shall have mercy on them just the same.
Lorenz:
As far as defence of Australia went, I’m not sure it was all strictly necessary apart from Guadalcanal, Coral Sea, and keeping the Japanese out of Port Moresby — the last of these perhaps the least critical.
Still every country needs its heroes.
Sure, Hindsight.
I belong to the mean and nasty school of thought which attributes some less than noble motives to the drive up through the Philippines. I mean nice to keep one’s word about returning and all that, but just how much strategic value did it have?
Some naval aspects sure: e.g. interdicting oil and other materials from Dutch East Indies… and even if it was a waste, Surigao Strait should have happened for the sheer poetry of it.
Rather like in Siege Warfare, there are some certainties: e.g. once the circumvallation and trench digging and mining reach certain milestones, it’s just attrition from there. This was the case once the Saipan airfield came online. Just Robert McNamara type Operations Research grinding it out in lives and materiel.
There’s a very good book called The Fleet at Flood Tide about the Storied Thing Nimitz Wrought.
Feel a bit sorry for everyone who spent the war in the Burmese Theatre — really the forgotten guys in many ways. That was tough fighting. And for what? So that Chiang Kai Shek could get his fresh abalone flown over the Hump or something?
Whatever faults MacArthur may have had, he more than made up for them during the Occupation and later in Korea.
Zaphod, thanks for your perspective on Trump’s strengths and weaknesses and the challenges of those arrayed against him (the “resistance”?—e.g., curious that this “Anonymous” feller claims that his biggest beef was Trump’s “character” as he merrily goes off to vote for Biden—apparently someone of “Character”…well, Biden is assuredly a character…). It is rather amazing that those who have been trying to subvert Trump at every turn have also (but of course!) been accusing him of not delegating responsibilities sufficiently (though I’m not sure this is an accurate criticism) and relying on an “inner circle” that includes family….
Lorenz, thanks much for that last post and reference. The Australian perspective is fascinating. There’s a reason that they continued to align with the US for decades following WWII even offering concrete support during the Vietnam years—gratitude? but also real-politique as Australia was much closer to the potential threat, geographically. Now, it would seem that they have their hands full—as do many countries—with Chinese “peacetime” infiltration and potential subversion (among other problems).
PS: United States Africa Command for Art Deco on Line 3.
There were 2,600 billets in Tropical and Southern Africa as of 2017. That’s not enough to secure Dakar were we facing a recalcitrant population, much less the rest of the continent.
Listen all you armchair “Che’s” I have lived in the Soviet Union and you really don’t want to go there. So stand down all you video gamer’s because you won’t re-spawn. When you are dead, you are really dead. The big guns are not Rem 700’s, and Glock 17’s, they are tanks and helicopters, and all the urban warriors in the US don’t stand chance against that sort of violence. Just the jet wash of an F16 can roll your P’up over without firing a shot. So be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
I have visions of Art Deco arrayed in his Sunday Best Sophist Get Up (bow tie optional) in the Roman Forum lecturing marauding Huns about how they’re really not there to eviscerate him and burn his entrails; actually they came For All Mankind. Or summat like that.
The epitaph of Pathological Late Stage Boomerdom will be “Couldn’t See Wood for the Trees.” (and in very small print emanating from the cheap seats: “Couldn’t get one neither.”).
I have visions of Art Deco arrayed in his Sunday Best Sophist
Doesn’t matter what your ‘visions’ are. You’re still demonstrably full of it.
om You said we could have gotten to the Philippines faster. I say how. Now you say “i’m not going to argue about what if’s and alternative history. Sorry.”
So in other words you got nothin.
“…the Burmese Theatre…”
Yes, that’s quite a chapter.
It would seem that the British were a bit concerned, having already lost Burma, to have the Japanese on their (Indian) doorstep, even if the topography—at least in the Assam region—did give the former, I believe, a distinct advantage. Still, in ’42-’43, the Japanese were feared and with good reason, as they just kept rolling onward. (The British also had to contend with indigenous Indian nationalistic sentiment, which was growing ever more antagonistic and which the Japanese studiously tried to exploit.)
I found Christopher Sykes’s biography of Orde Wingate to be a tremendous eye-opener regarding that extraordinary campaign. It seems probably that only a person of Wingate’s abilities, single-mindedness, determination, mental toughness (and yes, extreme eccentricity—though the former traits may well all have flown from this last one) could have overcome the Japanese forces, though there were certainly other factors at play here.
In any event, Wingate didn’t survive, crashing with half-a-dozen others in an American military plane en route to China, I believe, after Wingate and his troops had succeeded in turning the tide in the arduous campaign. (It’s the reason he’s buried at Arlington.)
“flown”? Hmmm.
“flowed” rather; or—even better—“derived”….
(Oh well…)
Not sure it will actually happen in DC. Protesters have caught on that the mayor cannot let them go if federal officers arrest them. They’ll really be prosecuted.
Chases Eagles:
You want to argue about this. I don’t, call it what you will.
Warning #34 trillion:
ALWAYS MAKE COPIES.
ALWAYS BACK-UP.
“Confidential documents related to the Biden family have vanished”
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/10/confidential_documents_related_to_the_biden_family_have_vanished.html
H/T Powerline blog
Barry Meislin: Interesting article.
Get this — The documents were mailed in an envelope and only the documents disappeared. The envelope arrived empty!
The article strongly suggests that the unnamed “major shipping company” responsible for the envelope containing the documents was infiltrated by an intelligence agency and thus the dirty work was done.
Works for me. Can “Three Days of the Condor” be far behind?
Those government employees who wish to “resist” if Trump wins, should all be fired forthwith and not paid for their last month. But then, I’m a Hard Ass. And they DESERVED it.
My outcome probabilities:
Biden wins – 5%
Biden “wins”, by what looks like fraud – 20%
Both cases, no civil war, the Reps don’t go to the streets over this.
No matter how bad the fraud, nor how many probable Rep ballots “go missing”, nor how many late Biden ballots get counted.
Trump wins BIGLY – 50%
Trump wins, but close, with lots of Biden lawsuits – 25%
Both cases, lots of protests, some are looting riots – looting mostly in Dem areas, mostly Black areas, most Black victims.
Dem riots & looting in Democratic Party dominated Black areas aren’t going to cause no civil war.
ShutDownDC & other FB / Twitter groups planning on violence & looting will be met with tougher police in any Rep city, and usually more national guard action with a Rep governor.
They want cosplay – not real war. As protesters get arrested AND PROSECUTED / punished for throwing things, the violence will quickly go down.
Where is the injustice? Only huge injustice motivates folks enough to fight when not being attacked.
Racism? Racism is illegal. The DOJ is investigating Princeton after their president said Princeton is racist — I hope the DOJ starts investigating every college which says that their own college is racist.
“System racism”? Ha, few even know what the definition is; and often those who do know (they claim), disagree on what it is and what to do about it.
Black criminals aggressing against police and getting shot? Ya, that’s the increasingly familiar pattern (see Neo’s next!) to justify some BLM/Antifa protest to provide cover for looting and (looks like Fun!) ultra-violence destruction. (Tho dressed in black, not the white droog clothes of Clockwork Orange).
Costume playing, Cosplay – it’s always fun until you get arrested and prosecuted.
Most Biden voters are slightly or very terrified of losing their jobs if they speak up against Dem policies they disagree with. They are NOT ready to risk their status and comfy middle & upper middle & lower upper class lives in actual civil disobedience, if that risks them anything.
They are NOT “ready for war”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8DTuRdcy0k
Mercenaries, are useless. . Disunited. . Unfaithful.
They have nothing more to keep them in a battle.
Other than meager wage.
Which is just about enough to make them wanna kill for ya,
But not enough to make’m wanna die for ya.
Most cosplay protesters have only a strong longing to join the circle dance of hate, but they’re not really ready to suffer anything.
Yeah, the more organized Antifa brick throwers are ready to do more, and worse, and get the riot & looting started.
But the looters want free stuff.
The rioters want to enjoy rage-destruction of other people’s property.
They don’t really want to work.
Revolution & war is actually very very hard work. In practice, if not in theory.
Like good police work.
You don’t see many BLM supporters trying to join the police to show them the “right” way to do it? Too much work…
[It’s easy for me to be less worried, stuck in my lockdown flat in Slovakia while my wife is off doing some “whole country” Covid testing, which she is strongly against but prefers that she does it rather than some doctor.]
Barry Meislin:
That saga really troubles me. It implies there is a mole in Fox News that is tipping off the opposition. How else would someone have known they had to intercept one particular piece of mail?. I hate to give the opposition supernatural powers, but this appears to have been a narrowly targeted hit. Fox needs to clean house. They’re as compromised as the White House was when Trump moved in.
F,
Over at legal insurrection, it is claimed that Homeland Security has access to the shippers network and can intercept anything they want. Current story is UPS found the contents.
The problem is multi-dimensional, and I think that Andrea Widburg—or someone else (I’m losing track here)—mentioned something very troubling, though it’s beginning, unfortunately, to look rather obvious, viz. the role of the FBI and the CIA, IN CONCERT, squelching the Biden “mess” (fiasco? scandal? coverup?).
For years.
This on the heels of those two agencies having been prime participants in driving Obamagate (albeit at Obama’s request, with no doubt significant participation and input from others—e.g., Comey, but mostly, I would think from the devious Brennan)—and then their, similarly, SQUELCHING any attempt to get to the bottom of that.
This has become a pattern, a modus operandi…
Too big to ignore.
Which is why the MSCM and the Info-Tech scoundrels are forced to spin so furiously.
The scandal—the double scandal, actually (Biden-gate and Obama-gate); the triple scandal, really, if you add the CIA/FBI/DOJ—which is already out there (though I have no idea how much exposure it’s actually been able to get, though I would assume that neither Canadian nor European readers are aware of, and also not sure whether the “good old” Daily Mail has been sufficiently stalwart either)…
… is RAPIDLY GETTING OUT OF HAND.
Which likely means danger ahead.
Ken Lane advised,
A useful reminder, Ken; though how many here are wannabe Che types, yearning to go off fomenting revolution in some primitive rural backwater, is likely to be very slight.
Less slender in number are those who understandably fear social war/civil war, or becoming victims of ultra vires commands and confiscations issued by the president of the local PTA, or the wife of the mayor.
Even then, apart from turning an autoloader on a gang of knife weilding lesbian city council home invaders, your chances of acheiving long term success – rather than a possible self-sacrificial deterence effect you will never see yourself – are probably not good.
I doubt the best armed rural sheriff’s department, with all the deputies they could muster in a day, could do much against a mere company of guardsmen supplemented by a couple of helicopters and armored vehicles. Pretty sure everyone else realizes it too.
And they no doubt also realize that by and large, such force commanders would have no problem killing the wives and children of such resisters too, if it could be chalked up to collateral damage of deplorables and government resisting freedom cultists clinging against all reason and social compliance orders to their God and their guns.
After all, we have seen something roughly like it several times before.
So, the idea of a bunch of Yahoos standing beside a Gadsden flag in an open field, and daring Secretary of Internal Controls and Passports, Lois Lerner, to napalm them, is almost certainly a non-starter.
And of course, since every meter of the earth’s surface is covered by sattelite imagery, and since topo maps of the US have shown every orchard and windmill and hunting shack since the 1950s, and since even wealthy English Catholic gentry could not keep a single priest in a cupboard hidden from prying and malicious eyes in the damned 1500s for Gaia’s sake,, it is obvious that marching and fuming in circles while taking potshots with your SKS at surveillance drones is, well, kinda counter productive.
Basically to have any chance of success at all, [and supposing the Mexicans did not immediately move in to collect the spoils] the entire infrastructure of major urban center America would have to be rendered suddenly and irremediably inoperable for at least 6 months just as a start; accompanied thereafter by horrific and massive interpersonal violence of a kind intended to exterminate the opposition.
I cannot blame people for being alarmed at that prospect, but to nonetheless be half expecting it when they hear what the Oldvermins, and Reichs, have in store for them, if they get their way.
And when you have the heads of the Democrat Party calling a broad swath of the Americam population, deplorables and chumps, and when you see their press allies censoring news and even present government officials, and when you think back on the lawlessness of the Clinton and Obama administrations, it seems quite natural that people anticipate that not only anarchist violence, but that official violence might be directed at them if they dare to obey a fundamentally transforming social directive or order with insufficient alacrity and expressions of enthusiasm.
Hope this helps.
Captain Obvious, AKA, Ken Lane has lived in the Soviet Union so he is the “authority.”
Because Che is our hero and we be Cosplayers or LARPers.
Otay Buckwheat.
Having riots is one thing, and having a Civil War is quite another thing. Even just property owners, and a few hired security people can put a stop to arson and looting. Disturbances have been occurring in those cities that hamstring their own police, and encourage the violence: if they wanted, the destruction could be ended just as order continues to be maintained in the many places that simply choose not to put up with it.
Seriously. Since when do we let people skulk around with supplies of gasoline, bottles and wick materials … and accord them the courtesy due to “protesters”? This is a “decision”, to actively support & promote arson & large-scale looting. We have the knowledge and the resources to halt these activities on any given day that we choose to do so.
No, like a Tango, it takes two to have a war … the side that fans this rhetoric doesn’t like guns, doesn’t have them, and wouldn’t know how to use them if they did. Conversely, the side that does have guns, likes them, and knows how to use them … is disciplined, responsible and perfectly aware that the riots and flamboyant interpersonal assault-behavior are planned-provocation, hoping to induce otherwise good citizens to over-react and discredit themselves.
The well-armed conservative support-base is rock-solid. They and their values & interests have been under attack for 40 years, and they’ve held-pat the whole way. Going with the recreational Vandals wasn’t a smart move by the Left, and all we have to do is let them own their choice.
There is no War in the offing. Could be some more rioting, but the numbers of actual rank & file Black Block etc operatives is insufficient to create any general conflagration … even assuming the authorities continued to allow them free rein.
Meanwhile, look at who this activity politically damages, and who looks suave & sensible in comparison. If Trump wins, then they lost, end of story. They can run amok a little, but not a lot. Stay calm and stand by.
Zaphod: thanks for the tip about Hornfischer’s “The Fleet at Flood Tide”. I usually keep a volume of S. E. Morison’s history on my nightstand, or close to it. It’s wonderful narrative history and great bedtime reading, but it would be interesting to get a fresher perspective. And Morison did repeat the slander about the Australian reconnaissance pilot delaying the report of Japanese heavy cruisers heading down the Slot to Savo Island. In fact, we–the Americans–dropped the ball on that one. Interestingly, John McCain’s grandfather played a part in the debacle. He had plenty of company, however.
Surigao Strait: poetic justice indeed, with the old battlewagons that were raised and refitted after being sunk at Pearl Harbor delivering the death blow to the Japanese Central Force. That wasn’t the only score that got settled that night: USN cruisers and PT boats sank IJN Mogami, one of the killers of USS Houston and HMAS Perth in the Sunda Strait almost three years before. Another night battle in narrow Far Eastern waters, and the end of the US Asiatic Fleet. “Whatever flames upon the night/Man’s own resinous heart has fed.”
Surigao, Samar, and Taffy 3: why hasn’t somebody made a movie about all this? Thanks to CGI, it would now be feasible. The old black-and-white still photographs that we have–the giant battleship Musashi under air attack in the Sibuyan Sea, the reflections of naval gunfire on the surface of the water in the Surigao Strait, the doomed jeep carrier straddled by near-misses from the Japanese heavy cruiser lurking on the horizon off Samar–are filled with high drama. Perhaps Hornfischer is working on a movie treatment. Perhaps the Chinese will finance it, as they did “Midway”. I’d watch it.
On the question of American empire: we had one, during the Cold War. It was a mostly benevolent empire, but it was an empire nonetheless. I saw it in action in Munich in the 1980s. Military bases, air fields, schools, commissaries, shopping centers, hospitals, apartment houses, movie houses, safe houses, libraries, listening posts, recreation centers in the city and in the Bavarian countryside–it was an entire parallel world in a host country, and it lasted for over four decades. We may not have called the shots in the Bundestag, but the American military and cultural presence in West Germany was massive and influential. A few years after the wall came down, I saw remnants of the Soviet empire in the former East Germany–a deserted army barracks in Potsdam. It all happened just thirty years ago, but it’s already ancient history. When you look at what is underneath all the deep-state rocks that Trump has flipped over in the last four years, you might conclude that the Soviet nomenklatura had the last laugh.
Civil war: let us hope not. I am not an optimist by nature, but I have seen large reservoirs of common sense and goodwill among ordinary Americans (it helps that I live in a Red state). I hope those qualities, which are almost entirely lacking among the governing and chattering classes, will prevail. That said, I have started discussing SHTF scenarios with like-minded friends. And keeping my powder dry (what I have laid in over the years, plus the odd can that can be picked up here and there).
Hubert:
You have probably also read “Neptune’s Inferno” The U.S, Navy at Guadalcanal by James D. Hornfischer? Drachinifel also commented in a recent Drydock episode that the Battle of Samar would be a great movie.
Om: thanks, but not yet. “Neptune’s Inferno” has been on my to-read list for a while. I hope to retire in the coming year and have a stack of books I’ve been meaning to get to: several things by Thomas Sowell, the last volume of Rick Atkinson’s trilogy on the US Army in Europe in WWII, the second half of Ford Madox Ford’s “Parade’s End” (got halfway through it a few years ago but had to put it aside because of family business). Hornfischer is on the list. However the election turns out, reading seems like a good way to spend the next year or two. Part of “cultivating one’s own garden” in bad times.
Correction to my previous post: it was the Japanese *Southern* Force that was destroyed at Surigao. I haven’t checked in on Drachinifel for a while, but am glad to hear he’s advocating for a movie on the Leyte Gulf. He did a great video on USN vs. IJN damage control a couple of years ago (spoiler: ours was better).
Circling back to the topic of this and other recent posts and threads on this blog: I wonder whether we could still do what we did in 1944-1945. Or 1965, for that matter. Or 1985. With Trump, I think we stand a chance of restoring some of our national competence. Otherwise, I’m afraid it’s “cultivate your garden” time. Literally, to supplement our Victory rations.
Hubert:
The Atkinson trilogy was very good.
Drachinifel did a long (43 minute) episode on the 1st Battle of Savo Island recently.
cdrsalamander.blogspot.com midrats had a no guest discussion about the election and it’s consequences for the Navy and national defense. They kept away from the candidates and focused on policy and likely consequences – capabilities. It was also very good.
https://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2020/10/pre-election-melee-on-midrats.html
https://youtu.be/jET2M8yP4Jo