The vice presidential debate is tonight
You can discuss it here.
I don’t think I’ve got the stomach to watch.
UPDATE 11:30 PM:
Looking at comments around the right side of the blogosphere, the consensus is that Pence acquitted himself well, Kamala was incredibly annoying, the moderator was biased but not to quite the same extreme degree as Chris Wallace, and the fly stole the show.
No one has a clue what effect, if any, this will have on the polls, so I won’t even speculate.
It did occur to me prior to the debate that Pence might be able to set a good tone for debating Harris. He had to walk a fine line between assertiveness and bullying – I suspect it wouldn’t play well if he appeared to be doing the latter to a female. Pence is no pushover and yet has an almost unfailingly polite and calm demeanor.
Harris will be ugly and that can only help Trump. Pence will be dignified and calm. I have already voted and there are more interesting things than watching another Dem ‘lying’ in an effort to try to obtain power. She has no problem ‘lying’ or ‘not telling the truth.
From the Dems collateral damage;
https://www.splicetoday.com/consume/satan-s-anus-dishwashing-through-the-pandemic
I like Pence, I would like him as VP, POTUS, or a neighbor. He is calm in the storm. Harris is a poisonous snake in the grass. I have a shovel to cut off the head.
I am with you. I did not watch the last one. Those things get me so riled up, I cannot stand it. Having said that, this one could actually be interesting …
At this point, I’m asking where is our Franco.
SEEN ON FACEBOOK: “Kamala Harris finds it bizarre that Pence won’t meet with women without his wife present. Oddly, if other men followed his example Kamala Harris wouldn’t be in Congress.”
Pinochet, please Art Deco… Pinochet.
I just read the book DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN 1948, going back to what’s considered the biggest upset ever in a presidential election. Some interesting parallels. For instance, all of the polls and all of the MSM of the time had Truman losing by about 10 points. Dewey and his people believed that he would win easily if he just didn’t make a mistake, so in his speeches he spoke in generalities and avoided offering specific solutions to anything. Harry Truman, on the other hand, improvised his speeches and attacked the “do-nothing” congress in a populist manner that became renowned and celebrated, immortalized by the phrase, “Give ‘Em Hell, Harry!” He toured relentlessly to ever larger and larger crowds. His appearances were entertaining and memorable. The journalists saw his tactics as desperate and undignified.
Internet commentator Styxhexenhammer (yes) says Pence is much favored. He did a good job debating against Kaine last election, whereas Harris did terrible in the Dem primary debates (except one where she slaughtered Biden LOL).
https://youtu.be/DcIOJ0nt63g
I’ve already made up my mind.
My ballot arrived today.
I won’t watch but will read blog comments by the ton!
Well, the “moderator” is helping Harris. Quelle surprise.
Harris’ gleeful laughter at 210,000 Corona Virus deaths is truly sickening.
Harris couldn’t go an hour without saying “existential threat.”
No, Zaphod, a Franco, who saved Spain from Italy’s fate, by driving Hitler nuts, in their 1940 negotiations about expanding the Axis.
On the debate, Pence should have a big stopwatch, staring it when he begins to speak, to be able to prove if Page cheats him out of alloted time.
Yes, the moderator is helping Harris but Pence is very politely running right over her.
Correction of above: “a big stopwatch, starTing it when…”
And, displaying it, when ever Page tries to cheat him, to expose to the nation what a fraud she is.
That would be *the* classic event in US debate history!
I guess it would be unseemly if Pence called the moderator out on her leading questions.
“The scientific community is in agreement….”
False premise.
“The scientific community is in agreement….”
Several thousand doctors and researchers are in agreement that shutdowns are worse than the virus.
Several tens of thousands of ordinary citizens ALSO signed on, in agreement.
“The Great Barrington Declaration
https://gbdeclaration.org/
Judging from the PJ Media liveblog, it seems like this one went fairly well. I only listened to a few sentences here and there. (It’s odd that I probably wouldn’t be able to identify Pence in a mixed room by the sound of his voice alone, even at this point.)
I hung in there through the first exchange but I couldn’t stomach Harris’ vomiting repeated lies. An hour later I listened as I ate a quick dinner. Same story; lies, distortions, obfuscations and incessant “bearing of false witness” against Trump.
Pence was calm but I wish he’d confronted her more directly and put some contempt in his tone. What a despicable human being is Harris. She now typifies democrat office holders.
Pence was extremely strong.
I watched the whole thing — 90 minutes out of my life. (Ugh).
Harris reverted to dishonest Democratic talking points about Trump disrespecting the troops and saying both sides had good people in Charlottesville. At that point, Pence should have jumped in to point out that these were lies. He might have rolled Harris back on her (round) heels.
I also wish Pence would have rejected the premise about climate change. Republicans keep dancing around that. Pence did address the issue of carbon emissions dropping under Trump, which is true, but Pence needed to tell the moderator that her premise was wrong/dishonest on scientists being in agreement on climate change.
My impressions:
1) At worst, it was a wash; at best, Pence crushed Harris. He was calm and commanding without coming off as petulant; she seemed to be trying to pull off her best imitation of sass, and it didn’t leave a good impression. Still, I wouldn’t say she did terrible. She was better than Biden. (I’m not addressing substance, just appearance.)
2) The moderator was better than Wallace but still terrible. More time was spent talking about a stupid non-issue – “addressing climate change” – than talking about defunding the police, riots, murder, looting, and, you know, things that are actually happening and can be greatly affected by political action. The moderator didn’t even ask about court packing – Pence had to do that himself. No questions about Harris’s record in SF. No questions about Biden’s questionable foreign policy judgments as VP. Yet again, the moderator infuriated me more than the Democrat candidate. That’s quite an accomplishment.
3) Pence destroyed Harris on court packing. It was decisive. Unfortunately, it came very late in the debate and I doubt many people saw it.
4) Pence won on the tax issue as well. Harris was coming at him hard, but he parried expertly and pushed her back on her heels. The economy is still Trump’s strongest issue. It was important to send a strong message there.
5) If Harris won on anything, it was on vague, emotional appeals to empathy and taking-care-of-people. If a viewer was susceptible to that kind of manipulation, then I guess they’d have been successfully manipulated.
Overall, much better than last debate. Probably doesn’t mean much either way.
I watched and concur that the questions were very slanted. “What would you do if Trump refuses to leave office?” What a crock. Talk more about the economy or China.
Pence won, even my Democrat friend agreed. He wouldn’t let jibes pass and returned to the prior topic if there was something left to say. The only real miss was when Kamala touted her AG record. Pence could have just said that ask Tulsi Gabbard about her record. Other than that he did very well.
Thanks to everyone who took the hits for the team.
Judging from the reasoned responses here, the MSM will label this a bombshell win for Harris (per kolnai’s #5 as applicable to them and their viewers).
“If Harris won on anything, it was on vague, emotional appeals to empathy and taking-care-of-people. If a viewer was susceptible to that kind of manipulation, then I guess they’d have been successfully manipulated.”
Oh and another thing I forgot. Why no question relating to Harris clearly calling Biden a racist, who supported racist policies, in the primaries?
Did she say it? Yes. Was it “just a debate”? According to her, yes. Well, therefore, she is willing to lie with a view to winning a debate. Or else Biden is a racist. Which is it?
Not one question about this. Trump must endlessly denounce white supremacy. But no question about Biden’s own racism, asserted by his own running mate mere months ago.
End this nonsense. It’s playing footsie with the biggest menace our country faces – the media, the academy that produces the hacks that fill it, the culture that sanctions its destructive lies. It’s unconscionable.
Pence was solid. Harris was condescending, smirky, and unlikeable. That said, she did score a few times.
The GOP needs to get two issues set in the next two weeks.
1. How to address climate change in a 2 minute segment. It has to be something very concise and on point. First make it clear there is no consensus about CO2 being the major cause, and that getting rid of fossil fuels would destroy our economy. Add that there is no known way that solar and wind can pick up the energy load, and that the way forward to clean energy is with nuclear. Some wordsmith needs to put something really good together for Trump to use in the next debate. It will come up again.
2. They must have some specifics to address how they are going to handle getting insurance for those with pre-existing conditions who had Obamacare. (After SCOTUS rules against it.) Pence punted on that and Harris scored well there.
Those two issues are being used well by the Democrats here in Washington and the GOP needs to get up to speed to counteract them on both.
I think Pence won because he is more likeable and usually more precise than Kamala.
Maybe I’m getting old, but Kamala’s continuous facial grimacing reminded me of Al Gore’s sighing during his debate with George W Bush
My two cents’ worth (worth what you’re paying here),
Based NOT on any substance but largely on optics, i.e., based on how I think the average LIV (low information voter) reacted to the festivities . . .
Harris wins, largely because Pence kept overrunning his allotted time (and repeatedly had to be admonished by the moderator), at least during the 40 or so minutes in which I managed to persevere through the performances.
Climate change … White supremacy … The left is amazing at conjuring imaginary national and global issues. But there are a lot of LIVs out there so there’s that. A more interesting angle for healthcare in my eyes is cost. The preexisting angle is through a Michael Moore Sicko lenses.
Andrew Sullivan thought Trump crushed Biden in the first debate but gives this one to Harris. A quick trip around Twitter finds conservatives thrilled with Pence’s performance and liberals noticeably fixating on one or two things in the debate and kind of pretending the rest didn’t happen.
I tend to side with Sullivan on this. Pence may have won on points, and that’s not nothing, but by tomorrow morning it won’t matter. The media will have unified around a particular narrative and the reality of the debate will be placed in a bag and thrown into the river.
Mike
“Pence may have won on points, and that’s not nothing, but by tomorrow morning it won’t matter. The media will have unified around a particular narrative and the reality of the debate will be placed in a bag and thrown into the river.” – MBunge
The narrative is “mansplaining.”
Pass it on.
https://freebeacon.com/media/stephanopoulos-lot-of-people-thought-pence-was-mansplaining-at-debate/
“A lot” means “the people who sent me the memo.”
https://meaww.com/vp-debate-2020-mike-pence-mansplaining-kamala-harris-lecture-criminal-justice-reactions
…and he interrupted her, too!!
There is no way any Republican male can interact with a Democrat female and avoid this charge. The memo was probably being polished and distributed the day after the debate schedule was set.
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/10/07/abcs-martha-raddatz-pushes-back-against-claim-pence-was-mansplaining-at-debate/
Biden was never accused of mansplaining to Sarah Palin.
PS per the Free Beacon: “Despite liberal complaints that Pence spoke over his time too often, one unofficial reading found Harris talked for more than three minutes longer than he did.”
But were they undecided-undecided voters?
(Unlike the totally-partisan-undecided voters at the latest Biden informercial.)
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/this-was-mike-pences-night-frank-luntz-says-panel-of-undecided-voters-called-kamala-harris-abrasive-and-condescending/
“I want to emphasize it’s not that Pence did so well, because they felt both candidates were not answering the questions as well as they would have liked,” he continued. “They were more upset with Kamala Harris’s reactions to Pence — the smiling, the smirking, the scowling. They were angrier at that then they were that Mike Pence went over his time in almost every debate.”
If you think you missed anything by not watching the debate, The Babylon Bee seems to have covered most of the important points.
https://babylonbee.com/news/kamala-harriss-ratings-plummet-as-people-realize-theyd-have-to-listen-to-her-voice-for-next-4-years
Seems to me I saw similar headlines about Hillary in 2016.
Andrew Sullivan injects himself with Testosterone and thinks he’s a Teddy Bear or something like that. And moreover thinks that it’s OK to write articles about it.
If Andrew Sullivan said the sun was shining, I’d be sure to pack my little purple unicorn umbrella in my man bag before heading outside.
What any more or less credible members of the Commentariat have to say about these debates at this stage hardly matters.
As I see it, Pence had only one job: to look reasonable and sane while the Mystery Meat Harpie Ranted and Raved. To the extent he did that, he helped our side.
I think Pence did very well, all things considering. If he had one failure of the night, he had a chance to bring up the now declassified documents regarding Russia, Brennan, Obama in 2016. Harris brought up Russian collusion (like it was still 2017 and a new accusation) and that was Pence’s chance to swing for the fences. He bunted.
Other than that, he did alright and was more assertive than I expected.
Rabbit. I wish the subject had been raised….someplace. But the debate’s requirements wouldn’t allow the time for the thing to be laid out.
Lies, lies, lies.
Richard Aubrey,
The subject was raised by Harris herself. Pence had a chance to rebut it but it was probably his weakest rebuttal of the evening.
You’re correct about the lies. Every time she opened her mouth, it was lies. And old lies too, like she was reading from a script 3 years out of date. Sure would be nice to have a real moderator…
Susan Page is a lot like Lisa Page.
An honest and sincere question:
Why does nearly every U.S. news story about Presidential race polling focus on national polling when national polling is meaningless in our system? The Electoral College is all that matters.
To use examples from recent elections; a Democrat can be up by millions or tens of millions of votes in California, New York and Illinois, but a few thousand or hundred votes in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin can make all the difference in who will win. So, in a national polling story that could look like a 10:1 advantage for the Democrat when he or she (or ‘her’) is destined to lose due to our Electoral College system.
Yet, everyday, every talking head gives serious, sober commentary on shifts in national polling. When reporting goes into detail, swing states are often mentioned, but that should be the headline and the gist of the reporting. National polling totals are meaningless.
Pence did reasonably well, but missed some real opportunities. For example: Harris’s assertion that US Covid death rates are worse than comparable European countries was wrong…we are somewhat better than the UK and considerably better than Belgium. Also, the US numbers are being pulled down by the terrible performance of New York and New Jersey.
LeClerc:
I forgot who made the joke, but when rumors began to circulate that Lisa Page had also been Andrew McCabe’s paramour the joke was: “Information revealed through recent FOIA requests show that Strzok and McCabe were on the same page.”
I can assure you that the AWFLs of my acquaintance are very much in the usual “I/she am/is a strong powerful woman but if you challenge anything I/she say/s you are a tool of the patriarchy trying to silence women” mode.
So, the debate commission just announced the 2nd Presidential debate will be virtual and Trump responds that he won’t take part under those conditions,
What does the “NORMS!” crowd have to say about that? An unelected and unaccountable group just unilaterally changes the rules and publicly announces it in an attempt to bully one side into going along.
Mike
If Trump tests negative for the virus by Oct. 15, which it seems that he will, there is absolutely no reason for a “virtual debate.” A virtual event would give the moderator, always biased, control over Trump’s mic, and it would allow Biden to use his teleprompter and read the answers.
Usually, changes to the format must be agreed upon by both parties.
I shudder to say this, but Kamala Harris has a good shot at becoming President. The Democrat party has put her within reach of awesome power solely because of her race and gender. This is yet another example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. The Democrats obviously calculate that women and blacks are incapable of understanding how the nation and the world work, and thus, understanding the credentials and experience required for the position of the most powerful office in that world.
Somewhat related: The Leftists’ hair is on fire because Mike Pence was “mansplaining” at Harris. Ye Gods! Should we have a President who stamps her feet and tears up because some big meanie man explained something to her? Should we set the women’s liberation movement back by fifty years? I submit that there are indeed powerful role models for women who seek political power. I submit this wonderful example.
Lots of comments about missed opportunities by Pence. From my perspective, every question was designed to put him on the defensive. The stage was set from the very first question. “Why did you and Trump sit on your behinds and let hundreds of thousands of Americans die needlessly?” Or words to that effect.
The moderator’s tone was so sweet, and so reasonable that some may not have noticed that the thrust of every question was an arrow aimed at Pence. The situation was compounded because this man was dealing with two women. I have never tried to walk on egg shells, but I imagine that it is very very hard. I don’t know if anyone could have done better.
I wonder if anyone put a stop watch on the moderator to see if Pence was getting his allotted time before being interrupted?
Better Patti Page than Susan Page.
Oldflyer, was I the only one who noted her question about trump’s health started with her saying his doctors “mislead and lied to the people about his condition.”? I expected Pence to jump all over that but he let it slide.
Pence showed Harris up for the lightweight demagogue she is. I scored it a decisive win for Pence. People who like lightweight demagogues probably scored it for Harris.
One more thing. Harris is an astonishingly bad liar. Her tell is the giggle. Compare that to Bill Clinton, an astonishingly adept liar, or even Barack Obama, who was a passable liar. Joe Biden is also a poor liar, but you have to give some credit for shameless enthusiasm.
The proper response from Trump to the virtual debate gambit is to show up unannounced at the studio with the “unaligned voters”. What a spetacle that would be- would they really refuse to let Trump in to answer the audience questions in person? I don’t think so.
Oldflyer, someone on the liveblog did that for a good stretch of somewhere in the middle part. The times came out comparable.
Satchel Paige was a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Susan Page throws like Tony Fauci.
Rufus T. Firefly:
They will focus on what they want to focus on. National polls are ordinarily more likely to favor Democrats, for obvious reasons. But I have read that the main reason they’re focused on is that they are much easier to perform than state polls. I forget why, but one reason is that you only have to do one rather than many. State polls are ordinarily done much less frequently.
The “town hall” format debate will now take place on Oct. 22, and the final debate on Oct. 29, both in person.
Politicians should affirm their claims by offering to wager their own personal money—lots of it—on a futures market.
Harris:”Trump called Covid 19 a hoax”
Pence: “Here’s ten grand on the Iowa futures market that he didn’t say this.”
Kamala: Zzzzzzz
Pence: “Are you betting, Kamala?”
Hello? “Are you betting Kamala?”
So, apparently I was in error, above, when saying the debates would now be Oct. 22 and 29. The Biden campaign claims Trump is declining to participate on Oct. 15, when in reality he would, since he should be COVID-negative by then (two weeks is the usual period), wants the Oct. 22 date, which was to be the final debate, to be the “town hall,” and refuses the Oct. 29 actual debate.
We all thought Biden might find a way to avoid public debate, and here it is.
The best capsule-summary of the important points in the debate (Doc Zero).
Makes a lot of the same points addressed by commenters here.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1314031583528136704.html
J. J. –On your point 1, how about this:
“If I believed climate change was an existential threat, and I could afford it, I’d do the same thing President Obama did about it: buy a $13 million estate on the beach of Martha’s Vineyard.”