Two are killed in Kenosha, 17-year-old arrested
[See UPDATE below.]
lllinois police have arrested a 17-year-old after two people were shot to death during another night of Black Lives Matter protests in Kenosha, Wisconsin.
Kyle Rittenhouse, of Antioch, Illinois, was taken into custody Wednesday in Illinois on suspicion of first-degree intentional homicide…
Two victims in the shooting, a 26-year-old Silver Lake resident and a 36-year-old Kenosha resident, died following the shooting.
A 26-year-old West Allis resident suffered non-life-threatening injuries.
Police said their investigation is ongoing. They do not know if both of the people killed were killed by the same person.
Video footage may indicate a self-defense situation for the second killing, but even if that’s the case, I’m not sure that Rittenhouse wouldn’t be charged with murder anyway. That’s the way things have been going these days. Here’s one description of the video:
Cellphone video circulated on social media showing a young, White male running down the street with a long gun, as he was chased by demonstrators from behind. He fell to the ground, and someone tried to grab his weapon and came at him with a fly-kick. The individual then opened fire in the middle of the street, and screams could be heard from the frantic crowd.
As usual, this is just a fragment of what occurred. I’m waiting for more information and for the fog to clear before I give an opinion on what may have actually happened and why.
As usual with these things, the British Daily Mail has more information than the American papers. It’s not always correct, but in the past I’ve generally found the British source to be more reliable as well. Here’s what it’s adding at the moment:
–The arrest of the teen came hours after video emerged of him walking up to police with his hands in the air and his rifle slung across his body just moments after the shooting
–He was apparently allowed to walk by despite members of the crowd yelling for him to be arrested because he had shot people, according to witness accounts and video footage
–Footage from earlier in the night appeared to show the teen guarding a local car shop with a group of armed militia members
–Another video showed police thanking an armed group, of which the teenager appeared to be part of, and offered them water…Much of Rittenhouse’s Facebook page is devoted to praising law enforcement, with references to Blue Lives Matter – the movement that supports police. He also can be seen holding an assault rifle in several photos…
Witness accounts and video show that the shootings took place in two stages: The gunman first shot someone at a car lot, then jogged away, stumbled and fell in the street, and opened fire again as members of the crowd closed in him.
Police apparently then let the young man walk past them with a rifle over his shoulder with his hands in the air.
…As for why the gunman was allowed to leave, Sheriff David Beth on Wednesday portrayed a chaotic, high-stress scene, with screaming, chanting, nonstop radio raffic and ‘people running all over the place’ – conditions that can cause ‘tunnel vision’ among law officers.
Rittenhouse [was] identified in court papers as a lifeguard at a YMCA in Lindenhurst, Illinois…
It is not yet clear what happened in the lead up to the initial shooting but police fear it may have stemmed from a conflict at a gas station between ‘self-styled militias’ defending local businesses from looters…
So we have very little idea about the first shooting; the second seems to have been the result of a chain of events in reaction to the first. I’m surprised that more of this sort of thing hasn’t happened already. The situation is a powder keg that has been allowed to become extremely dangerous. I note, also, that many of the witnesses or victims (plus Rittenhouse himself) mentioned or quoted in the article do not appear to live in Kenosha. If this is typical, it’s as I suspected.
[ADDENDUM: From some of the comments in a thread at RedState:
…[A]pparently there were two separate shootings by this guy – one when he’s first confronted in the dealership parking lot and another after he’d run a ways into the street. The second one appears clearly to be self defense, the first one is ambiguous from the video and will require more evidence -e.g. additional video, testimony from eye witnesses, etc.
…[in] the first shooting in the parking lot he’s already been running away from a pursuer before turning and firing shots after the pursuer throws something at him. That also seems like a pretty strong case of self-defense, though not quite as strong as the shooting a few seconds later of people actually attacking him lying on the ground.
It’s two separate incidents. [Rittenhouse] killed the first guy after [the first guy] threw the Molotov cocktails at him. The other two were shot during his retreat running down the street. One of those died as well.]
UPDATE:
Here’s an analysis at RedState by shipwreckedcrew. It concerns both shootings. An excerpt:
As is almost always the case, the “hot takes,” which hit Twitter in the first minutes after an incident such as this, are almost always wrong…
The first fact you see from the video is that the shooter was chased by the person he shot, and as they passed through the parking lot of the boarded-up gas station, the “victim” threw something at the shooter. There are reports that the item thrown was an unlit “Molotov Cocktail,” but you can’t know for sure from the video.
It seems like the shooter points the rifle at the “victim” at that point but does not fire. He instead turns to run again, and the “victim” continues to chase him. At that point, you hear the gunfire start, but you can’t see what happens. You hear a single shot, then four shots in rapid succession followed by three more shots in rapid succession. It seems like there is only one firearm, but I can’t be certain from the audio.
[There] is a video that supposedly shows the car lot being vandalized a few moments before the first shooting incident…
The shooter was apparently attempting to protect this business, and the “victim” was one of the individuals in this group damaging cars. I have seen Twitter comments claiming that the “victim” and others were preparing to start lighting some of the cars on fire when the shooter stepped in to intervene. What happened during that initial intervention is not recorded on video anywhere that I have found, but that confrontation ended with the “victim” chasing the shooter out of the car lot and down the street. That is where the YouTube video at the top first captures the two, leading directly to the first shooting in the gas station parking lot where the “victim” was killed.
The nature of that first confrontation in the parking lot is important to the overall event. If the shooter was threatened with violence, and then chased down the street to the gas station, he very likely has a strong case for self-defense. The “victim” is the aggressor, and the nature of their initial confrontation will establish the extent to which the shooter can claim he feared serious injury or death if he had not defended himself in the way he did. The actions of the “victim” in the car lot will also be significant. If there is video of him engaging in violent acts of vandalism that the shooter observed, the case for self-defense improves as well.
Again, under Wisconsin law, the shooter had not committed any illegal act by being present on the streets of Kenosha carrying a loaded long-gun…
As for the second shooting episode, the shooter is clearly attempting to get away from the people who are pursuing him. Who all those people were will be difficult to establish with certainty, but there are numerous videos with audio that captured what they were yelling.
This is the video that has been most widely circulated…
There seems to be little question about whether the shooter had anything to fear from those pursuing him. One individual managed to catch up to him and appears to try to hit him in the back of the head with some object. He evades that person and continues to run down the street, but then seems to stumble and fall. You can clearly hear someone yell, “Get his ass” at that point. The shooter gets himself into a seated position facing back at the people pursing him. The closest pursuer manages to run over the top of him, with both of them going down, but the shooter maintaining possession of his long gun. At that point, at least three different pursuers closed in on him from three different directions — all closing to within approximately 10 feet of him. A second individual attempts to grab the long-gun away from the shooter, but he still has the shoulder strap around his body.
It is hard to tell from the video, but it seems like the second individual is shot as a result of the long-gun discharging while they both have their hands on it, with the muzzle pointed at the second individual. He “runs” only a couple steps before he goes down in the street, and he does not move again during the remainder of the video while he is in the frame of the camera.
The shooter fires a few more shots as the people who were pursuing him all scatter in different directions.
There’s much more at the link. Shipwreckedcrew is a lawyer who’s quite knowledgeable about these things. I suggest you read the whole thing.
For this post I will use a word that the leftist are very fond of using, “blowback”.
Someone else probably linked this video already. I’m losing track. I think this came from a link embedded in a Vice article someone here linked to.
But it shows someone, apparently Rittenhouse, being chased through a service station parking lot by another person who is throwing something at him.
They disappear from camera view behind a car and a another vehicle, and there is a flat dull shot-like sound, followed by 4 louder and sharper reports. As Rittenhouse reappears having circled back into view, there are 4 or 5 additional reports which are obviously not from his rifle.
The dying pursuer, can be seen lying shirtless in a puddle of gasoline, or his own urine, as would-be aid givers encourage him to breathe without bothering to remove either his scarf or his makeshift balaclava. Enough of his face is revealed to show an orange-ish mustache.
Why Rittenhouse was being pursued here, prior to what apparently becomes the first shooting, is anybody’s guess. These things usually sort themselves out in ways that belie first impressions.
It is the video you must open, at the top.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1298612083739828226
There is a news report showing the injured man holding a semi-automatic gun and he was close to the “shooter”. Warning – some of the pictures of the injured man are disturbing due to part of arm blown away.
https://www.redstate.com/streiff/2020/08/26/kenosha-shooter-is-arrested-and-charged-with-first-degree-murder/
The article describes one side as “self-styled militias”, but the Antifa groups have demonstrated a very organized military style with shields, tactics, medics, a variety of weapons such as concrete milk shakes, supplies of rocks, etc.
From another website that had still pics it “appears” that the second “victim” that was shot in the arm by Rittenhouse while he was on the ground was raising his hands in a “don’t shoot” gesture. The next pic of the “victim” clearly shows him holding a semiauto handgun. So don’t shoot me so I can shoot you. The first “victim” in the second shooting kicked at Rittenhouse, “appears” to try hit him in the head with a skateboard and try to take the “AR” type weapon from Rittenhouse.
Hope I was clear enough in the above paragraph.
Will the Feds charge him in a Federal crime since he crossed state lines?
More will be shot, by both sides. I have to blame the absent authorities for not doing their jobs.
What a mess.
> The first “victim” in the second shooting kicked at Rittenhouse, “appears” to try hit him in the head
The video shows two different people. One try to kick him and another hits him on the head with a skateboard. The former, who seems to be black, got away unscathed and the latter, who appears to be white, was shot. I didn’t know showing up for a riot on a skateboard was de rigueur.
Gerald vDL’s post showed the shooter being assaulted with a skateboard by one of the deceased.
Skateboards have ben used as murder weapons (Seattle, University of Washington late 1990s or early 2000s IIRC) BTW.
Neo,
I know you’ve criticized BLM protestors [or just protestors] for coming from out of the immediate area to protest but this guy came from Illinois! With a rifle to ‘protect businesses’. [Granted he lives 21 miles away]. He was a vigilante with a purpose and in my view no better – and by killing two people – possibly worse than any BLM protestor in this riot. So what we have is a certified mess.
It’s also odd that the shooter was able to walk right by the police and leave! I guess the chaotic situation allowed that to happen.
The police may be overwhelmed and maybe the National Guard should be called in but vigilantes is not the answer. This is why.
Montage:
Vigilantes are the answer if the authorities will not preserve order. The governor of Wisconsin is negligent, and in my opinion should be blamed for the violence because he could have stopped it and chose not to do so for political reasons.
It is his first duty to the citizens, and he violated it.
They must resort to being vigilantes in order to protect themselves and their livelihood. I don’t know whether people can legally cross state lines to do this, but they will (as have the demonstraters and rioters).
What’s more, Rittenhouse isn’t being charged for being a vigilante. The question here is one of personal self-defense. It either applies or it doesn’t. One has to know a lot more about the law in Wisconsin (which I believe would be the relevant law), in such a complex situation. But it is certainly highly possible he has a self-defense claim that will be found valid.
What do you think the “answer” is when people are burning down a town and the authorities seem to be doing nothing about it?
Speaking of answers, see this previous post.
Montage gives us crocodile tears. Should the BLM/Antifa have leaned that riots can be dangerous to themselves not just to others, such as man shot dead in Austin TX? Rioters killed others in Minneapolis, old news I know. Rioters “bricked” a policeman in Kenosha earlier this week (attempted murder?), other old news too.
Stay on the sidewalk and watch the beach.
You can lie back and think of Britain when they come for your bicycle.
When politicians refuse to enforce the rule of law and allow mobs to control the streets, normal people will quickly learn they’re responsible for their personal safety and the safety of their property. After all, Pelosi did Hillary’s deplorables comment one better. We are now “enemies of the state”. Even rats know when they’re backed into a corner.
I am not surprised that news accounts always refer to people who are guarding private property from mayhem as “self styled militia” in a tone that makes that sound like a bad thing. They apparently don’t know, and possibly don’t care, if those people had a stake in the property, if they were hired security to replace the absent police, or some other group.
Got news for the media, and for those who are intent on the mayhem; the line has been crossed. Patience has been exhausted. You will find more “self styled militia”, and private citizens ready to fight back.
Call me what you will, but I am not sympathetic to people who join mobs and go out on a rampage. In my opinion these people have declared war on our society. Go to war, assume the risks. So far they have enjoyed pretty much free rein to rampage and destroy because, as usual, the U.S. was not prepared for war. Given what has already transpired in that area, it should be assumed that this mob intended to create a disaster. They got a disaster; just not what they intended. I think the pendulum has swung; and the cost of mayhem is going to go up sharply.
Like most of the world, I have no idea what the circumstances were that precipitated the first shots. Well, I don’t even know who fired the first shots, and maybe no one but the shooter does know. Reports indicate that part of the mob was armed. At any rate, I do hope the kid has a competent lawyer. I should think that an honest jury would think long and hard about the environment that had been created by mobs leading up to this event. Honest jury. There’s the rub. But, this trial won’t be in Minneapolis or Portland.
Montage (5:50 pm) said, “the police may be overwhelmed and maybe the National Guard should be called in but vigilantes is not the answer. This is why.”
“Vigilantes is not the answer.” Since roughly Memorial Day 2020, it is abundantly evident that police / National Guard / lawfully constituted law enforcement entities are not the answer either. They, and the quisling establishment, are not enforcing the laws, and the law-abiding citizen is left to fend for him/herself.
After three months of these horse feces, wrecking businesses and threatening homes and businesses and *people*, the law-abiding citizen is starting to fend for him/herself. If that’s called vigilantism, so be it. When is enough enough, Mr./Ms. Montage??
The shooter should be given a medal; it’s too bad only two ANTIFA thugs were killed.
If the shooter was a white or black ANTFA / BLM thug, he would be arrested, immediately released, and that would be the end of it.
That would constitute the entirety of his punishment.
Raise your hand if you were one of those that thought cw2 was not going to happen, that no shootings were taking pkace, no war, etc.
stand down. The war is over. People slept through most of it.
What will happen is no longer a war but a movie or play. This is the post epilogue
“What do you think the “answer” is when people are burning down a town and the authorities seem to be doing nothing about it? ”
The first of all rights, and the last recourse available, is self-help.
Governments only lay claim to a monopoly on violence and retribution, when they keep the peace in the first place. Otherwise it is just a charade.
One might wish to notice too, with regard to the militia, that the body of the people constitutes the unorganized militia which all citizens of an age are by their status as members of the basic political class, The People, default members.
Now, refer to the Second Amendment
I do not believe that a boy of his age, should have been there with a rifle if there were any alternative. But men with rifles being there, and protecting their fellow citizens’ property and livelihoods, and futures, which the malfeasant inhabitants of political office were ready to see go up in flames in order to protect their own feathered nests, is perfectly justifiable.
Vigilantism, speaking of fascism and the like, would be tracking that head kicker down in his lair, and hanging him by his heels in front of a petrol station, as per the fate of an infamous Italian political organizer some 75 years ago.
https://youtu.be/T8GxWeLTfaM?t=54
“Raise your hand if you were one of those that thought cw2 was not going to happen, that no shootings were taking pkace, no war, etc.”
This ain’t civil war. We will let you know if and when it begins.
Supporting what Liz and Lynn posted up at the tip: There are “stills” posted in the comments at Ethics Alarms showing the skateboard-guy on the shooter, and then moving away clutching his chest (10-ring) and another of the wounded man, clearly showing a semi-auto pistol in his R hand while clutching that forearm with his L hand. Shooter is on the ground in all of them.
This might have been posted here already; I just jumped to the end to add that info.
DNW, boys of his age probably should not have been at Normandy, the Chosin Reservoir and many other places with rifles. They were there because they answered an urgent call. We don’t know why this boy was there; except that we do know there was a demonstrated need for security.
Since we know nothing about this so called “militia”, we don’t really know his status. We don’t know if he had a personal interest in that property. We don’t know if he was under the supervision of an adult family member. We don’t even know if he fired the first shot.
We don’t know why he was isolated from the “militia” and running for his life. We do know that there was intent to injure him before he fired the shots on the video.
I have spoken more than once about life when law enforcement is too remote or too disengaged to provide protection. I saw such a situation in a rural area of the United States in the 20th century (1940s). People will make the best arrangements they can.
On another level, I think it is pure ignorance to describe people who are passively protecting property as vigilantes. Yes passively. The mob came to them, they did not seek out the mob. Some folks should look up the definition before posting.
Did anyone else think of the historical “Bloody Kansas” as the stories came out?
“Bleeding Kansas, Bloody Kansas, or the Border War was a series of violent civil confrontations in Kansas Territory, United States between 1854 and 1861 which emerged from a political and ideological debate over the legality of slavery in the proposed state of Kansas.The conflict was characterized by years of electoral fraud, raids, assaults, and retributive murders carried out in Kansas …”
I am afraid this is along with all sorts of other stuff a generational problem, you have those under 40 years old who have been so brainwashed they don’t know who we are, the American people or who they are, they don’t have any solid anchors to be proud of their people. When I was a kid a long time ago I was always cautioned to represent out family in the proper way and not bring any shame on our name. That sound silly now but that was a responsibility we had to either do the right thing or own up to our mistakes when we were caught and make amends.
Now we are dealing with a younger group spawned out of the f**king commie hippie perverts of the 60’s and they have become sociopathic social justice warriors who have no plans or control over their own destinies, they just want a better fair, more equal outcome for all mankind and they don’t care whose cities they burn down to make things better.
May the Good Lord help us in these troubled upcoming Civil War times.
It is true that boys of his age, reported as 17, saw combat in WII, and possibly in Korea as well, if they successfully lied about their age.
I personally knew a man who had at 16 managed to join the Marines by lying about his age, and being sent to the Pacific saw beach landing combat before age 19; probably at Iwo Jima as I recall.
My own Father, with his father’s signature, joined at 17 in the war’s last year, and technically served in an active theater for at least a few months before turning 18. But that was shipboard on Atlantic patrol. And I do not believe that it was standard practice, even in WII to send men into combat before the age of 18.
I think the average age of an American soldier in WWII was about 26?
In any event, despite the youth of Rittenhouse, I think that if he was in fact retreating prior to the first shooting, that he was doing a tactically smart thing: being alone, in apparent need to defend no one other than himself, and among a crowd of people who would not testify honestly on his behalf if he had to kill someone.
As it is, and having a dozen times reviewed the video of him being chased around the cars, it seems apparent to me that there was a great deal of gunfire taking place which – at least due to apparent acoustics – should not have been due to him. In fact he looks as though he has his back turned to his pursuer, as the first shot is heard.
I wonder if it will turn out a fellow Antifa member, accidentally hit him while shooting. I’d place the “odds” at 20% knowing no more than I do now. His head wound looks like a slit, and I assume that it is the entry wound. I just cannot figure out how a .223 would not have dome much more catastrophic damage to the cranium; though his “balaclava”-like head dress may have masked it. I mean the guy is lifting his head up, though he is probably blind.
If you have seen what a .223 will do to a deer (or in much less happy cases), you will know what I mean.
Ah, just occurred to me. Ball ammo. Not JHP.
https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama/2020/08/26/interviews-with-alleged-kenosha-shooter-kyle-rittenhouse/
This article includes video interviews with the shooter. He admires the police, came to help defend property, but also brought a medic kit so he could help people. He is shown going up to someone, asking if he could help.
He was also walking towards the police with hands up and stops next to a car. So, it looks like he was trying to turn himself in.
Rules of engagement are needed for armed civilian defenders. If the police refrain from doing their jobs, they should at least advise on such matters. Else we have, as noted above, a royal mess.
Well I’m not a lawyer, but I think the young man’s goose is cooked. He came from out of state with a long rifle to engage the protestors. The same prosecutors who are letting looters and arsonist rioters out of jail uncharged, are going to set upon this young man and dine out on his future.
It doesn’t matter if patience has been exhausted, or if the police have been ordered by the mayor to stand down, and federal assistance to restore order has been declined. It probably doesn’t matter that he was being beaten with a skateboard or threatened with a handgun.
If he was a home boy protecting a family business being set on fire and looted, he might have an adequate reason. But this young man is as much a riot tourist as the other out-of-towners. Only he doesn’t enjoy the same protections that they have; his politics are not in good odor with the local powers-that-be.
I guess it’s probably a Federal case now, so that might be a bit more equitable for him. And yes, I hope he gets off.
I’m glad the shooter (age 17) is a juvenile. Call me cynical. Or racist, or whatever. Pffft.
He came from out of state to stand for people and property, against the protestors of various colors who by virtue of discretionary law (“Pro-Choice”) enforcement, affirmative defense, appear to be in collusion with public parties. He stood his ground and waited for the protestors to threaten his life, and they almost succeeded to abort him (50 shades of Zimmerman/Martin, etc.). Meanwhile, Antifa, Some, Select Black Lives Matter are replaying the incident in Charlottesville and trapping people in their cars, their homes, their businesses, etc. to manufacture a plausible journolistic spectacle and stoke diversity.
Well, after Googling fruitlessly for what seemed like hours trying to get the names of the Antifa dead in Kenosha, using every combination of terms neutral and laudatory, I gave up and tried Duck Duck Go.
A minute later, I was looking at the smiling face of the late lamented Anthony Huber on his “partner’s” Go Fund me site.
She needs the money to get the house keys and so forth out of his pockets or something.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/249ip7bjxc?pc=tw_social&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=bcgfm_tw_fund_249ip7bjxc
I briefly thought of donating a buck just for the privilege of leaving a message that said “Piss on him” but thought better of it.
We are not chimps, after all. And maybe there is a God.
Aggie:
Your pessimism about his fate may be warranted. But I disagree with your characterization: “He came from out of state with a long rifle to engage the protestors.” He didn’t come to “engage protestors.” He came to defend property from looters and arsonists. I haven’t watched much video, but I’m not under the impression he was coming up to random protestors – people peacefully chanting, marching, carrying signs, that sort of thing – and pointing his long gun at them.
It was a Ft.Sumter event.
There will be more.
We the People, especially in the Democraticly-run states have had it with the lies, the passivity in the face of wanton aggression and destruction. 84 straight days of this in leftist Portland.
Bring it on. Resolution awaits.
Biden has to say something, it is alleged, since the fit hitting the shan is boosting Trump’s re-election chances. But otherwise the Dems would let this roll on like the true neo-Nazis they are.
The upcoming election and each impaneled jury in riot related trials will be de facto referendums on the riots. Local demography will strongly influence the outcome of the trials.
The national election may hinge on whether people buy the MSM “mostly peaceful” riot spin.
Were I on a jury, I would not find him guilty, regardless of the circumstances. It’s not a crime for the civilized to slay rampaging barbarians.
“Biden has to say something, it is alleged, since the fit hitting the shan is boosting Trump’s re-election chances. But otherwise the Dems would let this roll on like the true neo-Nazis they are.” Cicero
Biden is not in charge and criticism of the rioters of any kind is a political nonstarter for the dems. The democrat leadership needs the radical’s votes. So the riots will roll on. Nancy Pelosi declaring that anyone who disagrees with the democrat party to be “enemies of the state” is effectively, a declaration of war.
Fortunately, the radicals are too blinded by their ideological hate to grasp that the riots are handing the election to Trump.
Post re-election, Trump’s implementation of the Insurrection Act and Martial Law in the face of the predictable resulting nationwide rioting is a virtual certainty.
The Left is effectively declaring war and the coming slaughter will be on their heads for they and they alone are engineering the coming atrocity.
“War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want. …those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.” Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman
Neo,
We have law enforcement for a reason.
People and business owners protecting their own property is fine and makes sense – it’s also legal.
Vigilantes on the other hand are not the answer. I am surprised you think they are. When people take the law into their own hands you get crime that is just as bad as the crime in the streets done by ‘thugs’. You dislike anarchy but can you not see that vigilantism is just as random and sometimes carries out wild west justice or leads to mob rule. Real life is not a John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movie. Most Americans don’t want vigilantes or anarchists. It leads to indiscriminate death and arbitrary rules that do not serve justice.
And think about this one case. This young man went with a rifle with the intention of killing people who wanted to loot or riot. Is it worth it to kill people for that reason many miles away? Crazy. Would you hop in a car and drive miles to shoot protestors? If so why?
The dumb BLM protestor who kicked a man when he was down was a criminal. So is this naive vigilante in Kenosha. I don’t see a difference at this point.
[It’s late, I’ll check back tomorrow to see your thoughts].
Well, I have no doubt that our Governor will figure out a way to make things ven worse than he already has.
Yes, the governors are to blame but they are members of the Democrat Party. The Democrats are currently led by Nancy Pelosi. All along she had the power to restore civility but she chose unwisely. If she had one ounce of integrity she would take an early retirement, tomorrow.
Montage , what is your basis for making this statement:
This young man went with a rifle with the intention of killing people who wanted to loot or riot.
Did he call you before he left his home and you chatted on the drive up to Kenosha?
How do you know he didn’t go with a rifle to DISCOURAGE people who wanted to loot, burn, destroy property?
That is generally the reason for a show of force, not to kill.
Montage has finally produced a comment which has given real insight into his problem: which combines a lack of positive knowledge i.e., a severely limited knowledge base, with an apparent aversion to the labor of precise thinking.
His manner of commenting in the past – short drive by comments depositing a news reference in ostensible rebuttal to some position he had taken issue with – left this unclear; and thus made it impossible to decide whether his obtuseness was a deliberate technique, or an artifact of the limitations of his mind.
I’m now pretty much persuaded it is not polemical cleverness nor craftiness, nor even malice, but the latter.
In his latest comment in response to Neo, we see no quotes or acknowledgement that Neo has posited a clear conditional relative to so-called vigilantism. We see no references to the well-known foundational principles of Anglo-American public law and rights. We see no distinction made between protection of a natural right, and an illicit appropriation of the administration of justice, post hoc.
Aside from his mischaracterization of the fact situation and the attribution of purposes and motives to others which he could not possibly know, there is nothing serious at all. Just references to cowboy movie stars; and these, without even any narrative exposition explaining their particular relevance with instances; as if the mere brandishing of the names “Wayne” and “Eastwood” did all the work of argument.
As he begins, Montage intones that “We have law enforcement for a reason”
He never tells us what that reason is. If he tried to, he would undercut his own attempts to make the point he seems to wish to make.
I’m sorry if I ever attributed malice to Montage, if, and when, it was instead probably a species of personal limitation that caused him to comment in the manner he did.
No evidence yet that Rittenhouse is a thug or a psychopath.
He looks like a citizen trying to defend Kenosha against the rabble.
Hello. I live in Wisconsin so I thought I’d provide some insight.
In the capitol city of Madison, the mayor and the police department stood down and allowed several nights of rioting (still going on as of yesterday). Early on in the rioting an openly gay state senator was beaten by his fellow travelers https://www.channel3000.com/wisconsin-state-senator-says-he-was-attacked-by-protesters/
The capitol building is surrounded by a circle of small businesses and restaurants. Most of them are burned out and gone except for a Starbucks and a family restaurant. https://www.channel3000.com/watch-live-downtown-madison-protests-turn-violent/
Milwaukee fared slightly better because Chief Morales used crowd control to keep them from burning the city to the ground. The board demoted him for his trouble and he has now retired. https://wtmj.com/news/2020/08/12/report-former-milwaukee-police-chief-morales-plans-to-retire/. It remains to be seen how his successor will do.
There have been several days/nights of riots in Wauwatosa including a group descending on an officer’s home and firing a shot into his back door. https://www.fox6now.com/news/protesters-tried-to-kill-me-video-shows-shot-fired-outside-home-of-wauwatosa-officer-mensah. Strangely enough, the Wauwatosa police department was no where to be seen that night. Thankfully the Milwaukee PD responded to the riot and the shooting because the home was owned by a female Milwaukee police officer. She was home and her children were in the house.
That brings us to Kenosha. Leaving aside whether the shooting was justified, it was clear that the Kenosha PD was either overwhelmed or mailing it in. Congressional Representative Bryan Steil and Senator Ron Johnson requested help from Trump that Gov Evers turned down https://waow.com/2020/08/26/white-house-gov-evers-turned-down-federal-assistance-in-kenosha/.
Which brings me to the heart of the matter. Montage may be ready and willing to give up his belongings with both hands, and stand idly by when his family and his life are threatened. Some are not quite so willing to give up what they’ve worked a lifetime to build. Police officers in democratic run cities have demonstrated a clear pattern of refusing to control or being overwhelmed by rioters resulting in wide scale damage that just should not occur in these United States. Government has a monopoly on violence because as a people, we recognize that the law should be equally enforced and applied by a group of people that have been trained to do so. When the government abrogates its responsibility to enforce the law and control mobs, ordinary people need to step up to protect themselves and their businesses. There would be no need for groups of ordinary citizens to band together to protect themselves if the police did their jobs. Thank god those men were there to protect the business and the people there.
Geographically speaking, Antioch is just over the boarder in Illinois. I lived there for many years and the lake in our neighborhood, the other side of that lake had Wisconsin addresses; it’s that close. Kenosha is about 15 miles away as the crow flies.
Defending your property is not vigilantism. Defending the property of others is not vigilantism. Vigilantism would be actively hunting down BLM rioters.
I know some are making the comment about “coming from another state” as a reference that Federal law may now be in play, but I think some of you may also believe this means traveling some great distance to engage in a battle outside of one’s territory.
Kenosha is effectively a border town. You’ll find Brewers fans and Cubs fans, Packers and Bears fans. Some folks even commute daily to downtown Chicago.
It’s a city with a very affordable cost of living between two cities with recent racial unrest; Milwaukee and Chicago. It’s surrounded by dairy farms to the north and west and some pockets of immense wealth to the South. Movies like “Ferris Bueller” and “Pretty in Pink” and “Risky Business” were all set near there. It’s also close to a large Naval base. Hugh Hefner put his first Playboy club near there, in Lake Geneva. It was an ideal spot for well heeled Chicagoans like him to drive or travel by train to. Not an overly long trip, and beautiful scenery close to Chicago.
It’s not surprising BLM folks from Chicago or Milwaukee would be there. Some may even live nearby. It’s also not surprising there are militia. Again, mainly farmers to the north and west.
Excellent comment, Isolden. Very informative.
The 1st, 2nd and 4th wealthiest zip codes in Illinois are near Kenosha.
When politicians refuse to maintain law and order, when criminal activity is effectively encouraged by elected officials by their inaction and words, and when those arrested for criminal activity are immediately released and never charged with a crime, then no longer is there a criminal justice system nor a system of laws.
It is chaos and anarchy.
And this being the case, citizens have the right to confront the anarchists and shoot them dead.
Frankly, the ANTIFA / BLM thugs should be encouraged to physically assault and terrorize the families of those elected officials who , by their words and inaction, have conspired with and encouraged, the terrorists. They should be encouraged to burn down the homes and destroy all the property of these criminal, elected officials.
If this were to occur, watch how fast these same elected officials would act to restore law and order.
Elitists come in all colors and political ideologies and they all share the same benefit; that is, their political power and/or wealth enable them to be exempt from and immune to , the consequences of the policies they foist upon the citizenry.
Who really thinks DeBlasio, the mayors of Seattle, Portland, etc, the governors of these states are suffering or worry about their person or their property being threatened of destroyed?
Like all liberal progressives, they are all for the OTHER GUY bearing the consequences of the policies they implement, but god forbid they themselves must endure these same consequences.
It’s time that they too , and their families, are made to pay a real price.
Yesterday I read that after the shootings Rittenhouse had approached police with his hands up and tried to surrender himself. The police were concerned with other issues and allowed him to pass on by.
There are also photos of one of the antifa guy who was shot in the arm holding a hand gun. They are not just innocent protesters.
“If this were to occur, watch how fast these same elected officials would act to restore law and order.” JohnTyler
The mayor of Chicago had a large police presence on the street she lives on to keep the rioters away.
Here are the backgrounds of the three rioters Kyle Rittenhouse shot:
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1298833015548739587
And here’s a remarkably unbiased video account of the “Rittenhouse” shootings by a NYT reporter !
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/08/27/prosecutors-might-want-to-rethink-murder1-nyt-praised-for-detailed-report-on-kyle-rittenhouses-movements-before-and-up-to-the-shootings/
For those commenting on how releasing criminals and not prosecuting criminals for obvious crimes, while coming down hard on those trying to defend themselves…
Soros and others funded these local and state Attorneys General campaigns.
Cloward-Piven
Soros has already made billions collapsing other nations’ currencies. I’m not sure The Fed and Congress need his help.
Outstanding, highly pertinent info, LeClerc. I’m noting that the praised NYT reports are tweets.
Montage:
“We have law enforcement for a reason” you say. Well, duuuhh – really? The point is that there is completely inadequate law enforcement in Kenosha. The town is in a lawless situation. And one person is not enough to protect his/her business.
The definition of the word “vigilante” varies. I am using this one, found online by Googling (first definition listed): “a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate.”
Sometimes vigilantes do much more than that, but that’s what Rittenhouse appears to have been doing. All the video evidence indicates that he was being chased and attacked in all the cases where he shot people.
You also have a tendency to think you are able to read minds, and you assume facts not in evidence based on your mind-reading. You write “This young man went with a rifle with the intention of killing people who wanted to loot or riot.” Did you interview him, or is it your extrasensory powers that enabled you to know his intention? Do you have any evidence that he killed anyone just for looting or rioting? If that was his intent, by the way, he could have killed hundreds of people in Kenosha, because there were that many looters and rioters. He wouldn’t have had to wait for people to chase him and try to assault him as he was running away.
In fact, though, you don’t have to try to read Rittenhouse’s minid. We have a video interview of Rittenhouse talking about why he’s there:
Now, you may think he had no business being there. But there’s no reason for you to think he went there to shoot people who were not in the act of harming other people or of harming Rittenhouse.
A person may take a rifle in order to show the looters and arsonists that if they damage this particular property or hurt someone they run the risk of being shot. It is usually pretty effective without having to actually use the weapon, because most people are not going to risk their lives to smash a car in a car dealership, for example. Read this to see what I’m talking about.
You also write, “When people take the law into their own hands you get crime that is just as bad as the crime in the streets done by ‘thugs’.” You have a very odd definition of crime if you think that personal self-defense is “crime.” In the case of Rittenhouse, so far we have no evidence that he shot anyone in order to protect property, just to protect himself.
I actually think that rioting and looting and arson during a riot should have far more severe penalties than are on the books right now. They threaten the entire social order, and therefore are much worse than a random crime here and there. One of the many problems is that most people in riots are not arrested and they know they will not be. That endangers everyone.
there is a multi-video timeline of the entire episode.
From what I saw in these videos, there is an excellent self-defense argument for Rittenhouse. I hope that ALL the videos are played IN THEIR ENTIRETY to the jury when it goes to trial. The fake news is trying to “Covington” him with selected partial clips (their favorite technique).
https://thedonald.win/p/GvP4NwAr/-kenosha-shooter-mega-thread–/
Edward: As we saw in the Michael Brown case in Ferguson, and the Freddy Grey case in Baltimore, as well as some others, public outrage doesn’t equal evidence.
Oh yeah, and in the Covington case.
Likely in the George Floyd case. Eventually.
Other than having a corrupt judge, I can’t see how the videos can be kept out of the trial, presuming there is one.
“The fake news is trying to “Covington” him with selected partial clips (their favorite technique).”
That’s SOP. I remember the video of the police beating Rodney King and the media had the beating of King in an endless loop and it looked like King was being beat 24/7 by the racist cops. Also, remember how NBC edited George Zimmerman’s call to the police?
The armed citizens in Idaho got the job done when their town was threatened. Some cities, for myriad reasons, are more prepared than others to defend when those in position of authority have failed.
https://tinyurl.com/yyn6ezku
Have not had time to read all the comments, so I may repeat something said by others.
Here’s my take. There is a difference in the motivations of BLM/ANTIFA and the “vigilantes.” The BLM/ANTIFA people are bent on destruction – burning the system down – and they don’t care who gets hurt either physically or financially. They want to cancel our system of laws and government. They claim systemic racism is their reason for the violence. But there s no systemic racism. A black president, a black V.P. candidate, many black mayors and councilmen running major cities, multi-millionaire black athletes/entertainers/business people, and more are all evidence to belie the claim of systemic racism.
The vigilantes, on the other hand, do not intend to destroy anything. They aim only to protect and defend property and life. They are reacting out of frustration at the lack of government officials doing their duty of protecting lives and property. Unfortunately, the vigilantes are not well trained or organized. Their presence complicates the job for law enforcement, but their presence is a signal that the “silent majority” is getting fed up with the inaction of our government.
Men armed with long guns ought to be enough to discourage rioters/looters/arsonists, but they have met so little resistance they now are unafraid to attack anyone, armed or not. I have not studied the video or any comments, but I think Rittenhouse may have a case for self-defense. It’s a shame that this happened. How much better it would be if mayors and governors would flood the zone with police and National Guardsmen who would stop the rioting in its tracks.
BLM/ANTIFA are very well organized and funded. It is going to take a major effort by the feds, state, and local governments to gather the intelligence to go after the leaders and the funding. as well as arrest and confine as many of the foot soldiers as needed to put a stop to this attempted Marxist takeover.
Richard Aubrey:
But the trial doesn’t matter to the left. It’s all good. Keep from the public the videos that might exonerate Rittenhouse. Control the narrative: he’s a murderer. That causes even more riots. Once the whole thing is set in stone in the minds of the public, then the following might and often does occur: even non-Soros DAs feel they must throw the book at the culprit in order to calm things down, jury pools are biased and/or frightened about the possible repercussions of a “not guilty” verdict, and if said not guilty verdict is rendered the resulting riots are even more extreme because much of the public feel justice has not been done. That adds to the general disgust for the court system, and that can only aid the left as well. It’s win/win/win for the left.
Neo,
I have a separate response but I’ll post what Trevor Noah said about this and then an assessment.
Trevor Noah says it well:
“Let me tell you something. Nobody drives into a city with guns because they love someone else’s business that much. That’s some bullsh*t. No one has ever thought, ‘Oh, it’s my solemn duty to pick up a rifle and protect that T.J. Maxx.’ They do it because they’re hoping to shoot someone. That’s the only reason people like him [Rittenhouse] join these gangs in the first place. And yes, I said it, a ‘gang.’ Enough with this militia bullsh*t. This isn’t the Battle of Yorktown. It’s a bunch of dudes threatening people with guns.”
If you wonder why there is unrest in this country it’s reflected well in what happened over the last week. Jacob Blake [who is black] gets shot in the back seven times for posing a theoretical threat even though he had no weapon on him. Yet Kyle Rittenhouse, after approaching cop cars with a rifle after having shot some people, was allowed to leave in peace. He was arrested a day later and not roughed up or shot. Do you think a black man would get the same treatment as Rittenhouse? Clearly not. This is why there are protests.
Militias threaten social order as well.
Maybe Rittenhouse was defending himself? But he was clearly courting danger. He wasn’t a business owner standing out to protect a business he had poured his life into. [And, yes, I’m making a distinction between an unwise action vs a necessary action]. So I can’t know exactly why Rittenhouse was there or what was in his mind but it’s not too hard to guess – it was unwise. We’ll see what comes of his trial.
Montage:
Ah – Trevor Noah, another great mind-reader.
He hasn’t a clue about what motivated Rittenhouse or anyone else – except perhaps for himself. And although Noah is entitled to his opinion, why on earth would I subscribe to it? It’s not the least bit persuasive to me – and it’s illogical, because if Rittenhouse wanted to shoot someone it’s awfully strange that he would wait till he was attacked and being chased to do so.
I have my own opinion, which I’ve already expressed quite fully, so I have no need to restate it.
Oh, and good old “unarmed” Blake was apparently reaching for the knife under his driver’s side floorboard when he was shot. This was after being unsuccessfully tased and unsuccessfully wrestled with by two officers, who failed to restrain him.
Now it’s Montage and Trevor Noah reading minds. Such insight.
I read a tweet indicating that Lin Wood, the attorney who represents Nick Sandmann, has offered to defend Rittenhouse pro bono. Is he a criminal defense lawyer? It seems to me that Rittenhouse can legitimately claim self-defense in these shootings.
Ami Horowitz has embedded with rioters in Kenosha. And in a lengthy interview on Prager explains that his eye-witness sources make a good case for self-defense.
I cannot recite his account, however.
Ami Horowitz has interviewed hundreds of rioters from Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, and New York City riots as well.
This provoked Prager to ask if his own generalisations were false: most looters are black, but most rioters are young and white. Ami said this impression was true.
But Ami Horowitz next observations were disturbing. All of the hundreds of rioters shared the same motives and rationalisations: almost no one mentioned dead black victims. They were irrelevant. The all blamed the west, especially the US, for creating all of the world’s ills. And only by destroying the USA could this be changed. Destruction of the US, sedition and Revolution is their aim.
He did report that in Kenosha, his gang of rioters discussed attacking a hospital that sheltered the shooter. But contradictory and uncertain target intelligence shot down their planning.
If this interview gets posted online somewhere, listen. I’ve not heard anything so firsthand, nor so riveting. And disturbing.
Isn’t it interesting, how the biographies begin to stack up? All of the people who are the prime motivation for the riots, and many of the people who are are victims of consequential violence – like the Rittenhouse Three – or those who have been arrested for violence in Seattle, had their pictures taken, and then have been summarily released on their own notable recognizance?
Violent felons, pedophiles, sexual predators, anarchists, members of radical revolutionary groups. And no commentary from the media on the common thread binding all of this destruction together. They are criminals, all. And they represent just the foot soldiers.
Yeah, let Grandpa defend his own business if the police cannot or will not show up.
And if he tries to reason with the rioters and they kill him, well so what … that is none of our business. That’s what we have law enforcement for! To clear the bodies of the innocent dead away!
You are not fit to be, or to live among, free men Montage. But, you already knew that, didn’t you …
Trevor Noah has his clairvoyant powers and a sense of preexisting indignation upon which to base his opinions.
The rest of the world has video of the events.
T J:
Those have been Antifa’s goals for a long, long time. I don’t know how widely known it is, but I’ve certainly written about it on this blog several times. The riots are part BLM and part Antifa, and both have similar goals (see this about BLM).
Evidently gofundme and fundly have removed fundraising efforts for his legal defense. Infuriating. I emailed the GOA to see if they had any info on donations.
I’m enraged.
I wonder if the Rittenhouse boy’s motivation was something like what drew the Minutemen to Lexington. That quote from the little interview of him is interesting, as he speaks of “‘our’ job” being thus-and-so. He seems to see himself as part of a larger organization or community, not apparently a lone wolf type. The Trib article delves into that question a little bit, going into his connections to police-type cadet training activities, for example.
I find it interesting and I’m not prepared at this point to discount what the Trib says merely because it presumably doesn’t like what such details imply about the youth’s political views, such as they are at this point in his life. It looks to me like worthwhile investigative reporting, though I can accept that there are certainly journalists out there who would salivate at the prospect of finding a photo of him or one of his relatives in a brown shirt or something like that. But I’m not sure that the particular reporter who wrote the article linking the quick interview to which Neo referred is in that category right off the bat. But if we’re thinking of this as a brewing war situation, it does bring up the question: why do people march off to war? Everyone has his own reasons in that moment. That’s why I find the boy’s story of interest, I suppose.
Oh, also thanks to Isolden and Rufus for the local color angle. I love local color.