The Floyd/Chauvin transcript and what it reveals
Till last night I hadn’t realized that a transcript of the police interactions with George Floyd had already been released over a week ago. I would have thought it would have created a far bigger stir than it did, and with an enormous amount of discussion.
Perhaps the coverage was relatively muted because both Floyd and Chauvin – as human beings – have now been largely eclipsed by the reactions that their encounter generated (or for which their encounter was used as an excuse). I feel confident in saying that if their paths hadn’t crossed on that fateful day and in that fatal way, something else would have sparked the conflagration we’ve seen for the last month and a half. That “something” might not have been quite as visually powerful as the Floyd video, but another spark would nevertheless have been found.
But the Chauvin/Floyd visuals were exceptionally useful to the left as a whole and to Black Lives Matter and Antifa in particular. Since the release of the video, I have heard nearly every commentater, and seen nearly every writer, assert some version of “Chauvin was a cold-blooded murderer.” Sometimes it’s “Chauvin was a racist cold-blooded murderer.” And often they add that the video is unequivocal on that score, and that anyone who watches it and doesn’t come to that conclusion is also sadly deficient in reasoning power and empathy.
But I’ve never said that, because I know that videos can give the appearance of telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but they can also lead to a false kind of certainty. In a trial they are not enough. And in this case there was (and remains) a lot of missing information.
One piece of important missing information is what transpired between the police apprehending Floyd and his lying on the ground, the life ebbing out of him. Why was he on the ground in the first place, for example? For that and several other important questions, we now have an answer – or at least, a lot more information than we had before.
I suggest you go to the transcript and read it (yeah, it’s the Times, but that’s where I found it). It’s a long document in terms of pages, but there’s not much on each page, so it doesn’t take all that long to read.
The transcript presents a clearer picture than I thought it would, one in which Floyd, high on something and extremely jittery, acts in a way that thwarts all efforts to just put him in a police car and take him away. He keeps saying he’s not resisting arrest (p 40, for example), and yet he won’t cooperate with his own arrest.
Early on – way before he is placed on the ground – Floyd complains of being unable to breathe. Initially, it’s in the context of being put in the police car, about which he also claims claustrophobia. On page 43 he says he’s going to die in the car. What are the officers to make of all this? Faker or reality? They call for an EMT around this time, because when he’s actually in the car, briefly, he bangs his head against the glass and draws blood [See *ADDENDUM below].
They don’t want him to continue to injure himself. Is this the action of a group of officers intent on killing someone or even harming him? I would say not. Floyd himself begs to be let out of the car, and then it’s Floyd himself who asks (pp 47-48) to be allowed to lie on the ground. Floyd adds again (he says it quite a few times long before he’s lying down) that he can’t breathe, and mentions that he’s had COVID.
The police, of course, have no way to ascertain whether any of it is true until the EMTs come, and the EMTs (very very unfortunately) take some time to arrive. Before that, Floyd is lying down as he’d requested, and is being restrained as the video shows. It makes sense that the restraint is partly to keep him from hurting the officers, and partly to keep him from hurting himself (Floyd was about 6’4″ and weighed well over 200 pounds). He continues to say he can’t breathe, and they point out that he’s talking and therefore breathing.
This continues right up to the point when the EMTs arrive and take him away, but somewhat prior to that he’s gone unconscious.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention that at the time the incident occurred, the postures Floyd and Chauvin were in appear to have conformed with a then-approved (and since-banned) method of subduing people being taken into custody. The rules can be found here, although the relevant part (5-311,”NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS”) has been removed and replaced by a prohibition. But at the time Chauvin was apprehending Floyd, 5-311 contained a set of rules that governed, and part of it went like this (I put it in a draft for a post I never published, and so I still have it):
Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)
The appropriate question is whether this was the hold Chauvin used, whether it was performed correctly and was one of the recommended holds at the time, and also whether it was appropriate in the situation he faced with the amount of information he had at that time (not the amount of information we now have). I assume these will all be issues in any trial, if it ever gets that far. I will go on record as saying I doubt a fair trial can be had anywhere in the country and perhaps even in the world, because the vast majority of people think they already know exactly what happened.
And I will add that, if Chauvin were to be acquitted or even convicted on lesser charges such as negligent homicide (which might be appropriate if it’s determined that he used the hold in a situation where he knew or should have known it to be highly dangerous), there will be another huge explosion of rage on the street.
But to get back to the transcript, while on the ground Floyd says some disturbing and cryptic things, such as “I’m dead” (p 51, said after he’s told he is being arrested and will be going to jail) and later “My face is gone” (p 52). Chauvin says that they’ll hold him till the EMTs arrive. Again, not an utterance that exhibits any intent to harm Floyd. Shortly after that he asks to stand up, and then they discuss the fact that they’re pretty sure he’s high on something.
On p 55 Floyd says, “My father just died this way.” Floyd’s father had died of an aneurysm in the early 2000s. The officers continue to try to ascertain the level of drugs in his system; they know he’s high, but they’re not sure how much of his behavior to attribute to that (one officer mentions the possibility of “excited delirium”).
There’s much more – including a lot of talk from bystanders – and I suggest you read it all for yourself. But I’ll tell you what I think was happening. Further facts might come out to invalidate all or part of this, but I think Floyd died of a heart attack. Difficulty in breathing can be a symptom of a heart attack, and so can a sense of impending doom. The transcript indicates that Floyd had those two symptoms quite prominently from nearly the beginning of the encounter, and long before anyone was restraining him. The heart attack may have been a result of existing heart disease (as the autopsy indicated) exacerbated by the drugs we now know were in his system, as well as fear because he knew he had a lengthy record and that he’d screwed up and was likely to end up in prison.
Chauvin and the other officers had no way to know all this. Early on (p 5) Officer Lane tries to ascertain Floyd’s state of mind by asking a woman in his car the following questions:
Lane:Why’s he getting all squirrelly and not showing us his hands, and just being all weird like that?
Shawanda Renee Hill:I have no clue, because he’s been shot before.
Lane: Well I get that, but still when officers say, “Get out of the car.” Is he drunk, is he on something?
Shawanda Renee Hill: No, he got a thing going on, I’m telling you about the police.
Lane: What does that mean?
Shawanda Renee Hill: He have problems all the time when they come, especially when that man put that gun like that. It’s been one.
So the police are aware from the start that Floyd isn’t just jittery, he’s jittery around police in particular. As they witnessed more of his erratic behavior – including the fact that he was trying to hurt himself in the car and complaining of claustrophobia, as well as requesting to lie down on the ground instead – they obliged, while seeing a need to restrain him. I’m not at all sure that, if Floyd had been lying on his back, and merely held down by his hands and legs, he wouldn’t have been in the process of dying anyway. But I’ll leave that to the medical people to try to determine, if it’s even possible to do so at this point.
Floyd himself seemed to have some consciousness of imminent death even before they restrained him. I think his mention of the fact that his father “died this way” is not a reference to police brutality or even any encounter with the police it all, it’s a consciousness of the fact that his father died of a cardiovascular event and that Floyd may have been sensing that the same was happening to him. (That sort of feeling is not at all unusual in people actually undergoing heart attacks.) And although the hold Chauvin had him in certainly didn’t help that perception, did it really have much of an effect in the physical sense of killing him? Again, I’ll leave that to medical people to decide, but I think it’s fairly clear from the transcript that there was no intent to harm Floyd and that Chauvin thought the problem was drugs and not an actual cardiovascular event.
If so, Chauvin was sadly – and extremely tragically – mistaken. Many lives have been ruined because of the reaction to the perception of this event, and its interpretation by the press and the left and even some on the right as a clear example of both racial animus and murder. But there is no indication of either.
At this late date, would it even matter? I doubt it. The alternate story has been set in stone, and the world believes it.
[NOTE: In line with all of this, I recommended reading the story of the death of Tony Timpa, a white man who died in 2016 while being restrained by Dallas police in much the same way as Floyd later was restrained by Minneapolis police. Timpa’s death received very little publicity; it was mostly a local story.]
[*ADDENDUM: The transcript itself doesn’t actually say how his mouth gets bloody, just that he is bleeding from the mouth and that they informed the EMT of this when they called. I got the information that it happened when Floyd was in the squad car from this article, which quotes Officer Lane’s lawyer (Gray) as having stated the following:
Gray wrote that Floyd started to thrash back and forth and was “hitting his face on the glass in the squad [car] and began to bleed from his mouth.” Officers brought Floyd to the ground and, “the plan was to restrain him so he couldn’t move and hurt himself anymore,” Gray wrote.]
It’s not relevant as what is going on has been planned for more than a decade and pre-organized… it only appears or has the illusion that its about certain things, the way camouflage makes something appear or have the illusion of something else… and it works… whether its markings on an animal, or whether its false words that dont match deeds and actions… it even works on the same way that those who pay less attention are more easily fooled…
we believe we have no biology, and are the same
once that was in place, the rest was to exploit the false belief
even better as the truth is unacceptable, especially to those who truly believe the falsehood.
Timpa retrained? interesting faux pas
At worst, this seems like a manslaughter case. At least three of the cops are being railroaded.
The Brooks case in Atlanta is a travesty. All of the cops concerned are innocent.
Been said before, probably by me. Recall the Freddy Gray case in Balmer. The cops chose individual bench trials. First three were acquitted, the rest dropped. Turned out that public certainty and outrage were not the same as evidence.
IMO, Ellison wants these guys to get off easy or be acquitted, or the trials thrown out, or something, in order to gin up more rioting.
And if some of the commenting on the videos is valid, it could happen that way.
Artfldgr:
Thanks, will fix the typo.
Also, as I think my post makes clear, I agree that the Floyd case was just the releaser for a pre-existing plan. In that sense the facts don’t matter.
But they matter to me, and I think they matter to the readers here.
Richard Aubrey, agree 100% about Ellison wanting an acquittal/lesser charges to stoke up the mob again. He may have deliberately overcharged for that reason.
If they really mattered then the other times such things happen and reverse happenings would matter to… they dont… one is a tragedy, many is a statistic..
They were waiting for a trigger, preferably with video and they got it, roll cameras and action. What a sorry mess this has become, I read the whole thing and there was no animosity on the part of the police, perhaps not recognizing a major health problem plus and overdose but Floyd was not murdered by police.
With every public voice proclaiming Chauvin a murderer for weeks (well, OK, 99.9995%, not 100%), how can he get a fair trial? With blind/deaf jurors only?
Again,
1. Ellison has prevented the release of crucial segments of the video.
2. Ellison knows perfectly well what’s in that transcript
3. Ellison knows perfectly well that the fentanyl content of Floyd’s blood was consistent with an overdose death.
4. Ellison knows perfectly well that Floyd’s trachea was uninjured.
5. Ellison knows perfectly well that Floyd had ‘severe’ coronary artery disease.
6. We have every reason to believe that in Minneapolis, as in Baltimore, the prosecutor extorted a false ruling out of the coroner.
Ellison is plain evil. I suspect there are a few such creatures in every prosecutor’s office.
how can he get a fair trial? With blind/deaf jurors only?
With jurors who have satisfactory hearts and vigorous bs detectors. If he’s fortunate, he gets a passable judge. We know the prosecutor will be rotten to the core. I don’t think he’ll be acquitted, but a hung jury is a possibility.
At the risk of sounding like a cheerleader (not that there’s anything wrong with that), I’d like to note that this is a particularly clear summary of an incident that has been blatantly misreported by almost every journalist in the country.
Once again, Neo demonstrates that good reporting shouldn’t be so hard. In cases like these, she’s often asked the question “knave or fool?” This time, I’ll go with knaves — lots of them.
I forgot about the possibility of a bench trial. I have long thought that the facts do not support either second-degree or third degree murder, and may not even support manslaughter, given the Minneapolis training, assuming Chauvin was trained and qualified to do the neck restraint.
I have long believed that if all of the facts were known they would challenge the narrative.
The narrative was suspect from the beginning because it downplayed so many facts. For instance: that the police were responding to a 911 call reporting an out of control man, not a man trying to pass a bogus bill; that Floyd had a history of violent crime (which the police were likely informed about); that among the drugs that were found in Floyd’s system was meth, which is known to trigger paranoia and aggressiveness; that Floyd resisted arrest to an unknown degree. Now we learn additional key facts that seem to directly dispute the narrative; but the damage is done. Now we know that the police called for EMTs fairly early in the encounter. If that were part of the narrative, I missed it. Despite the narrative, we now know that the restraint used by Chauvin was approved at the time. We know now that Floyd had serious, life threatening health issues, no doubt exacerbated by drugs, I missed that. We do know that the ME initially pointed to a cardiac condition and drug intoxication as the likely cause of death, and belatedly changed his findings and classified it as a homicide. I wonder why? Well, the only autopsy that matters is the one by the family’s hired gun.
Never mind all of that; it’s too late. The damage is done; and truth is irrelevant, except to the accused. I have said that I will be surprised if Chauvin survives to stand trial. My opinion has not changed. If he does, I will be interested to see two things. First, how much the Judge suppresses; and secondly, how in the world they find an untainted jury.
The world sees the martyr Floyd’s death as a tragedy. Granted. The world ignores, and will continue to ignore the other tragedies that ensued.
Great post and link, Neo. I was way off base in my guess about Chauvin’s mind set during the arrest. He may be cynical (Who wouldn’t be when you have to deal with the dregs of society on a regular basis?), but his role in this arrest seems to have been as a supervisor who had little interaction with Floyd until he was on the ground. How was he to know that Floyd had heart problems? Yes, some of the things Floyd said might have tipped a medical professional off as to his cardiovascular problems, but to expect a policeman to
make that kind of call is unreasonable. That Floyd was high was pretty clear, but intoxication is not a sign of underlying illness.
These policemen did things pretty much by the “book” as it existed at the time. The video told a different story and that, unfortunately, is the story that the world in general now knows. As they say, a lie often travels around the world before the truth can get its boots on. Cell phone videos are, like so much of our new technology, a mixed blessing.
This link is being sent to all my e-mail buddies. At least a few more people will get a better picture of what actually happened – an arrest that somehow ended up as a national tragedy.
J.J.:
Thanks! I’d be curious whether it changes any minds.
Cornflour:
Thanks!
I have been surprised at how few people – even on the right – seem to be commenting on the full transcript. Perhaps because questioning the story most people have come to believe so deeply has become unacceptable?
I have been surprised at how few people – even on the right – seem to be commenting on the full transcript.
I’ll wager most of them have an allergy to diligence when they’re not out-and-out lying. I’d expect Andrew McCarthy to pick up on this, not anyone else. Jonathan Turley writes about questions of law rather than questions of fact.
I’m in Minneapolis. Keith Ellison is definitely a piece of work. But so is the county attorney he supplanted, Mike Freeman.
No one has been charged at the state level for any crimes related to the looting and arson. Federal prosecutions have been brought against a few. But County Attorney Freeman, while not a creature of Soros like many new prosecutors across the country, is behaving like one.
But here is the real key to this whole thing. When the EMTs arrived, they checked George Floyd’s pulse. Afterward, they were in no urgent hurry to resuscitate him. Why? Did Floyd have a pulse when they arrived, yet go into arrest after he was in the ambulance?
This is very important. We do not have any information from the EMTs. If Floyd was alive when he was loaded in the ambulance, then the case against the cops collapses.
When I read this earlier this evening the words in the actual text that was recorded in no way seemed to indicate the charges brought and the lack of support for the officers by the political narrative that was given by the government as the facts. The chain reaction and the incredible choreography that occurred in almost no time to deify and cannonize St. George was way too fast and too smooth and no expense spared, all bills paid and here we are in the final countdown to an election year. This is going to be and interesting fall coming into the election, here we live in the most comfortable, advanced nation in all of history with one of the problems of the poor being too fat, most every person working hard to be color blind, in human relations, since the mid 1960’s and we have folks agonizing about injustice and requiring crazy mind games for those of us who damn well know better.
I am old and don’t know if I want to live long enough to see this hand play out during the next ten years or so but I think the left might be playing with fire if they think they can actually engage the right in some sort of battle. This is all beyond me but. I don’t see anyone on the left trying to calm this stuff down. What the Hell is going one?
neo (9:29 pm) said:
“I have been surprised at how few people – even on the right – seem to be commenting on the full transcript. Perhaps because questioning the story most people have come to believe so deeply has become unacceptable?”
neo, perhaps because it is so discouraging, pointless, to try to offer facts when everyone “knows” what actually happened, and are far too invested in the mob narrative to consider additional information. So, yes, unacceptable.
OldTexan (11:15 pm) said:
“This is all beyond me but. I don’t see anyone on the left trying to calm this stuff down. What the Hell is going on?”
No one on the left is trying to calm this stuff down.
In fact, I ask dear readers out there, are you aware of any mainstream Democrats, even alleged moderates like Biden, Klobuchar, or Bloomberg, who are trying to calm this stuff down? Are you aware of any mainstream Democrats who are in any way publicly speaking out against this garbage? I’m not aware of any, but I’ve stopped paying attention to a lot of this stuff *. Bad for my blood pressure . . .
* combination of covid fatigue and outrage fatigue
“…calm this stuff down…”
Heh, they’re actually doing their best to gin it up.
Since in their perfervid imaginations and with their utterly perverted sense of “values”, they’re convinced it’s the only way, at this point, that their not-compos-mentis candidate will get elected in November.
And so they’re colluding to destroy what they can of the country and blame Trump & Supporters for it.
(Tactics, Democratic Party style.)
Absolutely, no way it can fail!
In the meantime, while the public is distracted, dazed and confused, they can keep Biden sequestered in what’s left of his own mind and no one will ask, “Hey, where’s No-Malarkey Joe gone to? Whuzzup with him?”…
(Also too “distracted, dazed and confused” to pay much attention to Burr-Durham-Flynn “developments”….)
There are lots of lawyers who would thirst to defend Chauvin on the facts developed so far here. Lawyers who went into the law to seek justice. Lets hope these officers get first rate representation and a reasoning and rational jury. Thank goodness for our system where there is at least a fighting chance these defendants will get both.
You humans have gone officially insane. That’s my current assessment as Ymar. I read responses to Trump’s twitter feed, and it is like Bizzaro Outer Limits Twilight Zone stuff. They aren’t even in this world.
“You humans”?
Just out of curiosity, what’s the name of your home planet?
“Lets hope these officers get first rate representation and a reasoning and rational jury.Thank goodness for our system where there is at least a fighting chance these defendants will get both.”
The experiences of Zimmerman, Darren Wilson, R.Stone and Gen. Flynn would argue otherwise and the propaganda against Officer Chauvin has been far, far worse. Just a cop doing his thankless job, following procedure and now, a dead man walking.
perhaps because it is so discouraging, pointless, to try to offer facts when everyone “knows” what actually happened, and are far too invested in the mob narrative to consider additional information. So, yes, unacceptable.
Yes, to take a different example: The transcript of what Trump actually said about Charlottesville is out there. It is crystal clear that “fine people on both sides” did not refer to the neo-Nazis. Trump literally said this:
Facts don’t matter to the left, including the media. That paragraph has been conveniently omitted from MSM/leftist narratives.
Zimmerman suffered an abusive prosecutor (Jerilyn Merritt offered that the trial judge in his case was normal-range, but the conduct of the trial prosecutor was so unprofessional it was outside her experience in nearly 40 years of practicing law). However, the jury got it right, and the judge was congenial in telling him he was free to go. Zimmerman suffered grievously from various private parties before during and after, of course. He also suffered betrayals by a maternal-side cousin, by his wife, and by one of his neighbors.
Darren Wilson was run out of law enforcement, but the prosecutor was quite meticulous in assessing his case and declined to bring charges. Again, it was private parties (including the media) who were after him. Others who treated him unfairly included police departments who categorically refused to hire him.
Chauvin, of course, has been slandered coast-to-coast and treated abominably by the Minnesota legal establishment. His wife has also left him. I’m hoping the rest of his family is a rock.
Scott Adams had an interesting (early) take on the Floyd death. Although this obviously falls under speculation (unlike the transcript), he said shortly after it happened that the fact that Floyd had Chinese fentanyl in his system may have been a factor in his death. A family member of Adams (stepson?) died of a Fentanyl overdose, so he was theorizing based on personal experience:
https://www.scottadamssays.com/2020/06/01/episode-1013-scott-adams-chinese-fentanyl-was-in-george-floyd-explains-everything/
Thank you Neo for bringing this to my attention.
Waste of time to study the actual McGuffin…
Pingback:Sorta Blogless Sunday Pinup » Pirate's Cove
There is no evidence that diversity (e.g. racism) was a motive. No evidence of homicidal intent. Floyd was at risk because of drug use, possibly because of SARS-CoV-2 effects, cardiovascular disease, and multiple stressors induced by his criminal activity and capture. There was little evidence of progressive viability in the first nine minutes, then something changed in the next ten, and the officers responded, not in a retrospective, but to facts on the ground. Floyd was restrained for his and the officers’ safety until the EMTs would arrive.
That said, who approves police methods and regulations? Is it the AG? Ellison?
Zimmerman suffered grievously from various private parties before during and after
Not just Zimmerman. There were protests in warlock trials at the time and collateral damage as they conducted witch hunts of people even remotely related to him.
Bizzaro Outer Limits Twilight Zone stuff
The Twilight Fringe is liberal (i.e. divergent) and progressive (i.e. monotonic). #HateTrumpsLove #HateLovesAbortion
Mr Aubrey and FOAF:
The subject of overcharging has been nagging me since the acquittals in the Freddy Gray case. They couldn’t prove the murder charge. This was in the state of Maryland, where apparently the jury cannot convict on a lesser charge (manslaughter for example) if the defendants were not charged as such. I believe the officers in the Gray case intended to harm him since they did not engage his restraints (seat belts) and drove erratically. I DO NOT think they intended to kill him.
If you recall 2 years ago Officer Noor WAS convicted of 3rd degree murder (in the shooting death of an innocent woman) after having been charged with 2nd degree murder. This was in Minnesota.
So, it appears to me that overcharging is not an issue in Minnesota. Am I wrong? If so, what am I missing?
I believe the officers in the Gray case intended to harm him since they did not engage his restraints (seat belts) and drove erratically. I DO NOT think they intended to kill him.
You believe the wrong things.
1. The instruction to put detainees in restraints had gone into effect just days earlier. It wasn’t SOP.
2. There was ample security camera footage taken from commercial establishments all along the route. Officer Goodson was operating the vehicle normally and the state’s attorney knew it.
3. There was another detainee in a different compartment of the van. He emerged unharmed and was recorded as saying Gray had been bouncing off the walls.
4. Ofc. Goodson made several stops along the way, and with the assistance of other officers, adjusted Gray’s position in the van. He finally cuffed him at the wrists and the ankles and told him to lie on the floor. It was after the penultimate stop that Gray was injured. Gray was quite contumacious, and the only explanation which makes sense given the camera footage and the witness statements was that, told to lie on the floor, he tried to stand up and toppled over backward into the door handle or other metal protrusion.
Waste of time to study the actual McGuffin…
Four people are going on trial for the McGuffin and face decades in prison.
M J R:
“No one on the left is trying to calm this stuff down.
In fact, I ask dear readers out there, are you aware of any mainstream Democrats, even alleged moderates like Biden, Klobuchar, or Bloomberg, who are trying to calm this stuff down?”
There are a few on the left who have spoken out about the rush to judgment on Chauvin. I don’t know of any mainstream Democrats, but so-called public intellectuals such as Sam Harris and Bret Weinstein have expressed doubt from the beginning. Weinstein, on his Saturday podcast, discussed the transcript of the officers’ interactions during the George Floyd incident, citing the lack of any direct incriminating evidence against the officers. If anything, he said, it makes clear that the case is more complex than the popular narrative.
From what he said, I gather that the transcript was not published in the paper, but linked to access on the NYT server. I wonder how many went to the trouble of reading it, or lost interest at the point they realized it didn’t confirm their knowledge of the “facts”.
George H. Munger:
“There are lots of lawyers who would thirst to defend Chauvin on the facts developed so far here. Lawyers who went into the law to seek justice.”
I wonder how many are eager to defend Chauvin. If Chauvin is acquitted—doubtful given the unlikelihood of getting an unbiased jury—I fear for his and his lawyer’s safety.
The picture of Chauvin’s knee upon Floyd’s neck is incendiary, and with the press throwing fuel on the issue, the rule of law might be burnt to the ground.
What we see in the picture, however, is Chauvin’s left knee. If Chauvin was trying to kill Floyd,would he not have had his full body weight on that left knee? With none of his weight on his right knee. And would he not have shifted his body’s weight to be centered on his left leg? So, where was Chauvin’s right knee? If he was bearing some of his weight on his right knee, it is evidence that he was actively limiting the amount of pressure upon (the side of) Floyd’s neck. There are some blurry pictures from another angle, behind, showing the officers on top of Floyd, and in those pictures, Chauvin appears to be leaning to his right.
Noor was only convicted of what he had been charged with: three charges, two convictions, one acquittal.
Art Deco:
I stand corrected.
Did the prosecution refuse to bring lesser charges or were the officers acquitted of ALL charges?
Never let a crisis go to waste! That line was made famous by Obama henchman from Chicago, Rahm Emanuel.
When Oldflyer, cornflour, and OldTexan wonder at facts viciously ignored versus reality, remember the above strategy and thinking terms of narrative maintenance. It’s always about the Power to Rule for CommieCrats (see my posts in the thread about CBS News and Rathergate propaganda).
Oldflyer said “I have long believed that if all of the facts were known they would challenge the narrative.”
No they won’t. Recall the Rolling Stone story about the supposed rape of a coed at UVA? As that story was shown to be false, a journalist said they must not let the facts get in the way of a good narrative. In other words, keep on lying.
No they won’t. Recall the Rolling Stone story about the supposed rape of a coed at UVA? As that story was shown to be false, a journalist said they must not let the facts get in the way of a good narrative. In other words, keep on lying.
Not sure who said that. Rolling Stone got schlonged with multiple lawsuits and had to issue a retraction. Not sure the author has been able to sell an article since. (The article was so implausible that only gross bias generating a complete breakdown in editorial judgment explains its publication. The scamming subject of the article wasn’t a practiced con artist. Steve Sailer’s concise description of young Jackie Coakley was ‘super-girly ditz’).
Did the prosecution refuse to bring lesser charges or were the officers acquitted of ALL charges?
They had a hung jury in the first case, so the other defendants opted for bench trials. There followed several acquittals, after which the malicious incompetent who was and is the state’s attorney in Baltimore gave up on the rest of them.
I wonder how many are eager to defend Chauvin. If Chauvin is acquitted—doubtful given the unlikelihood of getting an unbiased jury—I fear for his and his lawyer’s safety.
The problem in re Chauvin is that you’ll have two ringers who will hang the jury. The other officers might just win acquittals unless monster jurors slip through.
If Chauvin is charged with a very serious degree but only convicted–if convicted-,several degrees down, the rioting increases. Thus it pays Ellison & Co. to go for the gold, planning not to get it.
the rioting increases. Thus it pays Ellison & Co. to go for the gold, planning not to get it.
Yes, the left-right nexus is leftist.
This stuff has been bothering me all day since I read the transcript last night. It reminds me of the old 1960’s movie, “COOL HAND LUKE” and the head of the chain-gang prison with the mirror sun glasses would say, “What we have here, is a failure to communicate.”
The difference between objective information and subjective seems to have become blurry when the subjective will achieve political, societal goals. Continuing with old cliches I am ready to return to the old TV show DRAGNET when Jack Webb would say, “Just the facts ma’am, just the facts.”
Old Texan:
I think people have always been easily swayed by emotion and propaganda. The problem now is that the combination of social media, a mendacious press, and the lack of teaching of history and government in the schools, have combined to create a perfect storm of emotion-and-propaganda-whipped misinformation that feeds into this.
Andy McCarthy linked to this a while back. Pretty thorough discussion of the policies relevant to the incident and the all important all ignored context.
Why Derek Chauvin May Get Off His Murder Charge
A deeper look at the policies behind the death of George Floyd
https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911
M J R:
“No one on the left is trying to calm this stuff down. In fact, I ask dear readers out there, are you aware of any mainstream Democrats, even alleged moderates like Biden, Klobuchar, or Bloomberg, who are trying to calm this stuff down?”
JanMN (4:46 pm) replied, in part:
“There are a few on the left who have spoken out about the rush to judgment on Chauvin. I don’t know of any mainstream Democrats, but so-called public intellectuals such as Sam Harris and Bret Weinstein have expressed doubt from the beginning.”
JanMN, thank you for the response.
“I don’t know of any mainstream Democrats” answers the question, until someone out there does know of any (and is kind enough to clue me in).
I am aware of Weinstein but not aware of Harris.
Anyway, examples like Harris and Weinstein are exactly why I worded my question the way I did (“mainstream Democrats, even alleged moderates”). Yes, there are a handful of public intellectuals, and possibly even more private intellectuals, of a left-leaning bent, who are scratching their heads at this point. Bill Maher comes to mind — but is Bill Maher an intellectual? Never mind. Veering off-topic.
Thanks again, JanMN; I hadn’t taken note of your comments until now. If you are a relatively new commenter (which I suspect), welcome aboard!
Are we sure that it was EMT’s who came and took Floyd away? The vehicle didn’t look like a medical transport vehicle at all – just a police van. I don’t recall seeing any emergency medical care being provided to Floyd at the scene. It was truly sad to see Floyd’s limp body being put on the gurney. Was he already dead and known to be dead by the police at the scene? And for how long?
As regards the charging: That same day, one of the alphabets–might have been ABC–reported that the knee-neck restraint was taught in MPD school and had been used 200 times in the last five years with no difficulty.
Other reports say that it had been taught up until…3-5–years ago. But no report of whether it had been taught to the older guys as being off limits
If Chauvin can be shown to have done what was okay at the time, or when he was trained and nobody’d ever told him not to do it any longer, the prosecution could have a problem. So could the MPD whose rainy day fund took a hit from the Damond settlement.
I, like many others, initially formed the opinion that Chauvin was a soulless, sadistic murderer based on the way the video was presented to us. Not that it showed he was motivated by racism per se, just that he showed depraved indifference as he squeezed the life out of Mr. Floyd. Over time I realized that a good part of the way we perceived the event was due to the “narration” provided by the person who was speaking to/challenging Chauvin. I’m not sure if that is the same person who was filming or if they were adjacent to the videographer. Anyway, we hear that person describing the event as he sees it, with no response at all from Chauvin. Now I realize that as Neo stated, film can be deceiving. And yet, it was quite powerful in shaping so many people’s opinions because you could easily believe that the person on the scene was accurately describing events.
And now it becomes near impossible, and certainly inconvenient to try to correct anyone (right or left) who reflexively refers to the “murder of Floyd by the police”. Enough time has passed that no one wants to get into that discussion, and it certainly will not change the anarchic trajectory we are on. It kind of reminds me of the reference to “Palestinians” as if they were a people whose country was stolen from them. It used to be that defenders of Israel would always use the modifier “so-called” before using the term. At this point, even the Netanyahu government calls them Palestinians because it’s an easy shorthand to refer to the group with which you are trying to negotiate.
jakhny:
There is no reason to suppose it wasn’t EMTs, and I haven’t seen anyone except you make that assertion. The transcript indicates it was EMTs, as well.
See the discussion on pages 21, 50, and 54 about calling EMTs and which code to use, and the discussion with the EMTs on pages 65-67.
Pingback:If You Think You Know All About George Floyd’s Death, You Need to Read This – Daily Pundit
About a week after Floyd’s death, CBS news released the fact that Floyd and Chauvin knew each other prior to the fatal encounter. This was through them both working as security in a local night club. I haven’t heard of any journalist exploring this as a possible source of motive in the killing. Was this nightclub a front for money laundering, human trafficking or other illegal activity? Floyd was arrested for trying to pass a counterfeit bill. Where did he get that? Why was Chauvin allowed to work at a nightclub by his police department supervisors? Isn’t this a conflict of interest? The lack of standards in reporting is astounding here.
Pingback:Strange Daze
as a possible source of motive in the killing
Ofc. Chauvin did not compel George Floyd to ingest fentanyl.
Dank:
They worked the same club, different shifts. There is no evidence that they knew each other. See also this,
If you read the transcript, there is also no evidence whatsoever that Chauvin wasn’t just restraining a very large, strong, potentially violent, and previously-resistant and agitated person.
The nightclub was a front for The Men in Black, shape shifting aliens from another dimension. I haven’t heard that reported in the media. It must be a deep Dank secret. 🙂
Nobody seems to focus on the fentanyl found in Floyd’s autopsy. Fentany by itself, without any other outside factors, is now killing 20K per year. Basically, because it is so powerful, a street dealer can readily sell an overdose
And Floyd hit the trifecta of fentanyl overdose symptoms — confusion, agitation and an inability to breathe caused by fentanyl depressing the function of thr diaphram. It looks like Floyd became aware of this shortly after passing the fake money. This would cause him.to get agitated. This agitation greatly increased when he saw cops, as he was suddenly in fear of going back to prison
And the end result was a frequently lethal psychotic episode called “Excited Delirium Syndrome.” Given his untreated CAD, I’m thinking Floyd had zero chance of surviving this epidode, no matter what was done
As for the restraint hold being excessive, the cops were waiting for an EMT to arrive to administer a drug called ketamine, which may be a lifesaver. They were trying to save Floyd’s
life — why would they be using excessive force? Makes no sense. My guess is they were trying to prevent Floyd from banging his head on the ground. Maybe theres a calming effect from restricting blood flow to the brain.
Also of note. Chauvin apparently weighs a mere 155 lbs. Which my be the reason he was applying the knee. He was the lightest
Nobody seems to focus on the fentanyl found in Floyd’s autopsy. Fentany by itself, without any other outside factors, is now killing 20K per year. Basically, because it is so powerful, a street dealer can readily sell an overdose
His femoral blood level was 11 nanograms per cc, one commonly seen in overdose deaths.
callmelennie:
On the contrary, plenty of people have focused on it. That includes me. See point 7 here.
This particular thread is not about Floyd’s cause of death. It is about the transcript and in particular the behavior of the police.
“This agitation greatly increased when he saw cops…”
No.
Here’s a video clip (from what seems like a fortuitously placed, private security camera) of the situation BEFORE it went totally south. Floyd, a very large, muscular man—I believe that one of his jobs was nightclub bouncer—is walking around under police escort and seems to be interacting calmly with the police for the duration of the video.
https://nypost.com/2020/05/27/video-does-not-appear-to-show-george-floyd-resisting-arrest/
“…as he was suddenly in fear of going back to prison.”
Maybe yes, maybe no. Purely speculative.
Things turned bad after he was put in the police vehicle (which is not in this video clip). Once he was placed inside the police vehicle (which occurred AFTER this clip finished and is NOT recorded here), he seems to have had some sort of panic attack (or perhaps a medical issue) and apparently threw himself repeatedly against the interior of the vehicle (from the inside) hurting himself and potentially causing considerable damage. I believe (I could be wrong) that this intense agitation—and he is a very large person—was the reason why he was removed from the vehicle and was subdued on the pavement (or sidewalk) just outside it.
OK, a quick perusal of comments made me think that many commentators were giving short shrift to the fentanyl factor. If you’re not talking about the OD of fentanyl, you should. It renders the cops blameless
Seems to me Floyd is expressing in an indirect way his fear of going back to prison. He keeps telling cops, “Please dont do this” .. Dont do what? Start a process that sends him back to prison
Of course this is speculation, but being inside a police car is the next step on the journey to prison, which may be the reason he snapped
And there is now a formal term for this kind of extreme panic — Excited Delirium Syndrome. And cops really hate this ExDS situation. The subject is dangerous to himself and others, and frequently dies. And the measures the cops take, like the knee on neck control technique, aren’t necessarily effective and appear to be contributing to the problem
callmelennie:
I and others have written many posts about Floyd. The fentanyl issue has been discussed repeatedly in comments. In addition other writers have written about it. You can’t base a statement like “Nobody seems to focus on the fentanyl found in Floyd’s autopsy” (your comment) on a quick perusal of a particular post that is not about Floyd’s cause of death. This post is about a different issue, what the transcript reveals and the police’s actions as well as Floyd’s.
As I said, whether Floyd had a lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system does not depend on the dose itself, which would be lethal to someone who is not addicted and/or habituated to the drug. We don’t know whether Floyd was or wasn’t an addict, but if he was, the dose would not necessarily have been lethal to him. I imagine evidence about that will appear in the trial, assuming there is a trial.
Neo, thanks for the correction you gave to my earlier comment. I appreciate all your great posting as well as your readers’ comments and opinions. A wonderful site here in difficult times!
As I said, whether Floyd had a lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system does not depend on the dose itself, which would be lethal to someone who is not addicted and/or habituated to the drug. We don’t know whether Floyd was or wasn’t an addict, but if he was, the dose would not necessarily have been lethal to him.
The measure in question (11 nanograms per cc) was a measure of the composition of his femoral blood. Whatever the dose he took was, that’s what was in his system after it was fully metabolized and circulating about. The literature reviews I consulted surveyed studies of hundreds of overdose deaths. That particular femoral blood level was near the median recorded in these studies. Given that his trachea was not compressed, you don’t have too many options in regard to the cause of death. If it wasn’t a serendipitous heart attack (generated by his ‘severe’ coronary artery disease), the drugs or some combination of factors a la Dorothy Kilgallen are the options remaining.
Art Deco:
As I believe I’ve already noted:
The autopsy noted existing heart disease. However, it also appears that Floyd had a lot of different drugs in his system, and perhaps that was the major cause that precipitated the cessation of breathing. I’ve had trouble finding what I consider to be an objective discussion of the drug levels and whether drugs alone might have killed him. It seems to me that’s a possibility, as well. The drugs he took could cause similar symptoms to the ones he reported and/or exhibited: respiratory depression, agitation.
Just to give an example of how messed up the media reports have been, look at this, for example. It quotes the doctor who did the family autopsy as saying that, “large areas of scrapes and abrasions on Floyd’s face indicated the force that was used to press him into the ground.” Nothing in the article (CBS News) challenges that statement, although we know that the facial abrasions were very likely self-inflicted, when Floyd was briefly in the squad car, and were the reason he was let out of the car (and placed on the ground, at Floyd’s request) in the first place.
Neo,
Thanks for the great discussion of this horrible event. Many excellent comments, too. I’ve learned much.
Sharyl Atkinson’s podcast on the matter is also informative. Among other things, she discusses the “conscious” and “unconscious” neck restraints that were apparently authorized by the MPD. She also mentions reports that Floyd went into cardiac arrest in the ambulance.
See https://justthenews.com/podcasts/sharyl-attkisson-podcast/why-george-floyd-case-may-not-be-open-and-shut
On 8/3/2020, the Daily Mail published the body cam video that corresponds to the time before the neck-on-knee. You can use this to correlate to what you read on the transcript.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8576371/Police-bodycam-footage-shows-moment-moment-arrest-George-Floyd-time.html