Comments

A must-read interview with Glenn Loury on race and equality — 20 Comments

1. According to the MN state autopsy, George Floyd’s blood contained 11.0 ng/mL Fentanyl, plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl, 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine, and three other drugs. That’s a lethal dose of drugs and George Floyd was a dead man walking. He was already in distress when the police arrived and was saying he couldn’t breathe. His family said they had another autopsy performed and claimed he was asphyxiated, I can’t find that autopsy so maybe it hasn’t been released.
   When I was in the Navy we were warned you can’t continue giving an injured person morphine for pain because it is a powerful central nervous system depressor and too much morphine will stop their heart or breathing. Fentanyl does the same thing.

2. Loury:
   Let’s take this example. Were the actions we’ve all seen of the police officer in Minneapolis, Derek Chauvin, expressions of racial hatred? I happen to think that we have no reason to suppose that about him, absent further evidence.

   Three years ago a Minneapolis cop killed a woman who had called 911. The cop was black- a Somali. The victim was white- from Australia. What does Floyd’s death have in common with the death of that white woman? Not white racism. Poor police department training or poor police department policy come to mind to me a lot faster than white racism. Though, as commenter Ray points out, the cause of Floyd’s death may lie elsewhere than my quick opinion.

   Dr. Loury is someone who thinks before he speaks- a commodity that is increasingly rare these days.

3. “thinks before he speaks”

   Ooo, that’s a sign of whiteness. Just ask the Smithsonian.

4. Yeah, Gringo, most likely, both MN incidents owed to the extent to which the big city PDs feature Clout Babies, who the brass protect for political etc. reasons.
   They sure had slobbered all over Noor, the killer.
   Justine Damond was “wanted”, not for passing a fake $20, but for *knocking* on the cop car, which arrived some time after she had called 9/11, to report hearing trouble outside her pad.
   But, because she was white, there were no riots in her memory, no chants about “knocking while white”.
   I gather that BLM sees her as just another “Karen”.

5. According to the Wiki entry on the Damond incident, “… it was reported that in 2015, two psychiatrists, *and* other training officers, had raised concerns about Noor’s fitness for police duty.”
   But, he was a Somali, and *Diversity* was, of course, more important than mere “Karens”.

6. Chauvin had been a policeman for 19 years. Joe Wambaugh, the LA detective turned author, wrote about policemen that (I’m paraphrasing here) because they are in contact with the dregs of society so much they eventually become quite cynical. Oftentimes they reach the conclusion that everybody is a potential perp. Over many years it can give them a very low opinion of their fellow humans. They become hard bitten and often lose all empathy. If they stay in policing long enough, they may eventually come to hate themselves as well. Police work takes a toll, especially on their psyches. Good police departments provide counseling to try and help their officers stay at least somewhat sane.

   IMO, that describes Chauvin pretty well. He showed no sign of empathy for the prisoner. In fact, he was heard to say, that if Floyd couldn’t breathe he couldn’t talk, or words to that effect.

   The autopsy seems to show that Floyd died from the drugs in his system coupled with the fact that he had cardiovascular disease, not from any injuries caused by Chauvin. He might well have died in the police car on the way to jail, if they had been successful in putting him in the car.

   That Chauvin refused to roll Floyd over and give some relief while being filmed was the act of someone who had become very cynical and devoid of empathy. It could not have been more damaging to law enforcement and police reputations if it had been purposely staged by BLM.

   While BLM is a Marxist group hoping to destroy our society as we know it, very few people actually understand that. Add to that the fact that BLM and ANTIFA have chapters all over the U.S. and a lot of money. It provided the perfect excuse to loose these thugs and activists on the cities. The MSM, of course, has had a field day with it.

   It may turn out to have been a bad thing for the Dems. They are now the anti-law and order party. Many middle of the road people are frightened. It could drive their votes toward Republicans in November.

7. J.J.:

   Maybe you’re right about Chauvin and Floyd. But it’s sheer speculation at this point, although 99% of people seem to have come to conclusions in the absence of enough data.

   This is what we know, based on my readings:

   (1) We are missing a very important part of the record: what Floyd did between the time they tried to put him in the car and the time they restrained him on the ground. Something happened and we know not what, although apparently there is video of it. Some day we may find out, but as of now it’s a blank.

   (2) Floyd was complaining of not being able to breathe at the outset, before anyone had him on the ground.

   (3) The police called EMTs when Floyd was complaining, and this was before he ended up on the ground with Chauvin pinning him down. Unfortunately, it took the EMTs many many minutes to arrive.

   (4) I have read many times (although it’s not been discussed in relation to Floyd) that people being arrested, especially people who’ve been in police custody before (Floyd fits that description) often complain of not being able to breathe. This makes it difficult to tell when someone is in real trouble – as Floyd almost certainly was – or whether the person is malingering.

   (5) That may be why Chauvin did not take Floyd’s complaints seriously, particularly because – as Chauvin pointed out – Floyd was able to speak. It is technically true that if you really can’t breathe you cannot speak, so it is literally the case that if you can speak then you can breathe. However, obviously, a person can be having difficulty breathing and yet still be speaking. This appears to have been the case with Floyd, but there is no reason to believe that Chauvin knew that.

   (6) The person who called in originally about Floyd passing the bad check said that he thought Floyd was high on something and acting erratically. This is almost certainly the reason the officers felt he needed to be restrained. The hold that Chauvin used was a recommended way to restrain a suspect who might have an agitated reaction (delirium) to a drug.

   (7) There was what, for an ordinary person, would be a lethal dose of Fentanyl in Floyd’s system. Chauvin had no way of knowing that except in retrospect. But it also doesn’t mean that Floyd died of a Fentanyl overdose. That would depend on whether Floyd was a Fentanyl addict (or well-habituated to Fentanyl) at the time of his death. An addict has ordinarily had to increase the dose past normal limits as his body becomes used to the drug and it takes more and more to get the desired effect.

   (8) In the 2016 case of Tony Timpa in Dallas, Texas, the facts are eerily similar to that of the death of Floyd. Timpa died in much the same way with much the same pleas, and in Timpa’s case the officers were actually making fun of him, because (it turns out) they didn’t believe him. Why was the case of Timpa nearly unknown, except in Dallas? Because everyone involved was white.

   Unfortunately – VERY unfortunately – the media, the Democrats, and groups like BLM have a vested interest in not broadcasting these facts widely, so that most people aren’t aware of them. I don’t think I’ve misstated anything here, and if further facts emerge that show otherwise I will admit it. I have no reason to want to either exonerate Chauvin or to condemn him. I will wait until I know more.

8. I watch everything I can featuring Glenn Loury, often but by no means always in the company of John McWhorter. They freely discuss the fact that they are popular with many whites because they can say things no white can get away with in the current hysterical climate.

   Something I’ve never seen discussed by anyone is that Loury can access the voice and style of an MLK, Morgan Freeman or black preacher, something both whites and blacks find highly persuasive and satisfying (especially when you agree with the points being raised). Loury has been a member of his church, a deacon no less, and this powerful stylistic device is no doubt something he’s well aware of and well-practiced in its effective use. In some of the dialogues on Bloggingheads (YouTube) one can see him sometimes winding himself up before he forcefully summarizes his argument.

   I strongly recommend watching him speak as opposed to only reading transcripts of his words.

9. Loury has not yet reached the point, however, where he can accept Trump as the lesser evil. And I’ve heard both Loury and McWhorter take some of the black female possibles to be Biden’s VP far more seriously than I ever can.

   Loury does at least readily acknowledge the partisanship of the press, how they, in his words, “are not willing to let him have a single good news day” no matter what.

10. (7) There was what, for an ordinary person, would be a lethal dose of Fentanyl in Floyd’s system. Chauvin had no way of knowing that except in retrospect. But it also doesn’t mean that Floyd died of a Fentanyl overdose. That would depend on whether Floyd was a Fentanyl addict (or well-habituated to Fentanyl) at the time of his death. An addict has ordinarily had to increase the dose past normal limits as his body becomes used to the drug and it takes more and more to get the desired effect.

    The fentanyl in his system located in his femoral blood was measured at 11 nanograms per cc. I’ve looked at literature on overdose deaths (one study collated 207 autopsy reports reporting fentanyl levels). A level of 11 nanograms per cc is around the median for an overdose death. Floyd had three other street drugs in his system, among them methamphetamine. He also had what the coroner referred to as ‘severe’ coronary artery disease. (In re his heredity, note that his father died at age 53). What’s more plausible as a cause of death, the lethal levels of fentanyl, or a man putting pressure on the back of your neck for six minutes (while you can still talk)? NB, the autopsy report said his trachea was uninjured.

11. That Chauvin refused to roll Floyd over and give some relief while being filmed was the act of someone who had become very cynical and devoid of empathy.

    No, it’s the act of a man doing his job, a man who has dealt with malingering scores of times.

12. What’s more plausible as a cause of death, the lethal levels of fentanyl, or a man putting pressure on the back of your neck for six minutes (while you can still talk)? NB, the autopsy report said his trachea was uninjured.
    …
    He also had what the coroner referred to as ‘severe’ coronary artery disease

    Didn’t Floyd also test positive for SARS-CoV-2? I don’t recall if there was disease progression.

13. I happen to be suspicious about the assertion of authority based upon personal identity, such as being black.

    So, he does not place diversity, or indulge it, before people.

14. No, it’s the act of a man doing his job, a man who has dealt with malingering scores of times.

    That’s the probable explanation, which, despite perceptions influenced by the recorded excerpt, is backed by the autopsy report and prevailing conditions. Something changed after the first 10 minutes and they reached the police car. This incident screams for due process, not a trial by press.

15. George Floyd being restrained on his stomach was SOP. Fentanyl can cause nausea and vomiting. Having a person on their stomach keeps them from choking on their own vomit. Police protocol requires them to be restrained on their stomach. Chauvin was following the standard procedure.

16. Neo, I did not intend to condemn Chauvin, only to try to explain his actions. Art Deco has the opinion that he was just doing his job after having dealt with many malingerers before. That’s an opinion I wouldn’t argue with. As you say, there is still much we don’t know. I don’t disagree with any of your points except the one Art Deco mentioned. Floyd was not a well man. He actually died because of his condition, not from injuries caused by Chauvin. If Chauvin had rolled him over and shown a bit of empathy, even though there may have been some small risk involved, Floyd may have still died, but the appearance of “police brutality” would have been blunted. Well, it’s my opinion that it might have made a big difference. YMMV.

    What happened before Floyd was taken to the ground? That interaction may have influenced Chauvin’s actions and attitude. We will learn that, I assume, during the trial.

    All that said, cynicism and declining empathy is a characteristic of many policemen who have been on the job for many years. It’s not racism, it’s a mindset that causes police to make bad decisions at times. I know a retired policeman very well. He opines that Wambaugh was correct about the cynicism and lack of empathy among many long-term policemen, himself included. It’s something they have to work to avoid and good police departments have programs to help in that regard. Does Minneapolis have such a program? I assume they do, but don’t know. Unfortunately, some policeman avoid such counseling because they don’t want to go “soft.” And that’s a problem as well.

    The point of my comment was not to condemn nor excuse Chauvin, only to opine on what his mindset may have been in that situation. IMO, no one can deny that his actions and decisions during that arrest provided a spark for the tinder that BLM and ANTIFA were looking for. And now we are in the midst of that fire with the Dems and MSM throwing gasoline on it. Thus far, it seems too little is being done to control the fire set off by this arrest. An arrest gone bad has unleashed a firestorm that threatens to burn our system down.

17. J.J.:

    Agreed.

    I would add, however, that if it hadn’t been Floyd’s death, it would have been something else. Floyd’s death just happened to have given them a video that they could use more effectively than any video since Rodney King. With Rodney King, though, he didn’t die, and they were not organized and prepared in anything like the same way (including the fact that social media did not exist back then).

18. I think this explains a lot:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRoqSyIi-98

    It looks like Floyd’s behavior and the amount in his system relative to body-weight aren’t consistent with asphyxia caused by fentanyl-plus-meth (“goofballs”). It also doesn’t look consistent with “wooden chest”: Such things should have shown signs at the outset of the encounter, because of the quick metabolism-time for fentanyl in a man of Floyd’s size and body-fat. If Floyd were going to die from the drugs, he should have been nodding off or getting “wooden chest” by the time the officers arrived.

    However, the fellow doing the explaining in that video goes outside his expertise when he says, “None of this should ever have happened…he should never have been put in that position, or for that long.” I presume what he means by that is the cops shouldn’t have been on his back to subdue him, or should not have been on his back for such a long time.

    Now, that may be obvious in retrospect: Setting aside Floyd’s death, which he himself would likely have accomplished before the month was out without any help, we all wish that all the riots and craziness could have been avoided.

    But “should,” in describing the officers’ behavior, must logically account for what they could possibly have known, at the time, from experience, from departmental training and policies, and from their observations of Floyd, all of which should govern their actions.

    I have no knowledge of what the officers should have believed the proper procedure was, given their training and department policies. If their training, policies, and procedures were such that failing to keep him subdued in that manner (and for that duration) would have been deemed an error, then the cops were correct under the circumstances to do what they did.

    In retrospect, given that Floyd’s is the second such death (at least), I imagine that departments will either prohibit this kind of subdual altogether, or time-limit it to a shorter span of minutes, during which time some other restraint ought to be put into action.

    But that’s retrospect. The officers aren’t at fault if they couldn’t possibly have known cardiac arrest would result. (If they could and should have known, then they are at fault.)

    Likewise, the comments from bystanders and the pleas from Floyd himself seem damning. But suspects (especially out-of-control druggies) do and say all kinds of absurd things, and there’s no reason for the cops to suppose that Random Bystander X has any greater knowledge of how to safely subdue a large, drugged-out suspect than the authors of their training and procedures did. If anything, the opposite should be suspected.

    So, if the video is correct, then a fentanyl/meth “goofball” was not the cause of Floyd’s death, and the pressure on his torso was.

    But that doesn’t intrinsically mean the officers were violating proper procedures. Proving that requires facts-not-in-evidence (unless someone has a link to share).

19. Few if any here have said anything about Glenn Loury, instead devoting themselves to a kind of inquest on the death of George Floyd, which seems rather pointless to me as that narrative is settled in the public mind, no points raised now about how much fentanyl he had in his system is going to have any impact whatsoever or even be noticed. That case is a done deal thanks to the video.

    Any jury which shows mercy to Chauvin in some future courtroom will be risking their lives (and those of many others who might be collateral damage in riots). The other cops might not be quite so doomed, but Chauvin is toast unless jurors want to immolate themselves. (Of course, if Keith Ellison actually tries the case himself there’s no telling just how incompetently he may perform. In the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman trial, the contrast between the prosecution and the defense attorneys was incredible. But how many out there in America were actually watching that trial?)

    Anyway, I find Loury and other emerging black intellectuals who are getting some notice much more interesting and relevant than any recapitulation of Floyd’s death. The drugs he had in his system don’t matter. Nobody in America cares or wants to know.

20. I suppose, then, that a non-white telling me what I, as a white, am thinking is still in bounds?

HTML tags allowed in your comment: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>