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Home » Conversations with friends: “Trump did nothing”

Conversations with friends: “Trump did nothing”

The New Neo Posted on by

Now that we’re all housebound, I find myself talking on the phone to friends more often. Sometimes they’re people I’m not often in touch with, and – since I don’t ordinarily bring up politics in conversation anyway – most of them are people I rarely if ever talk with about politics. However, just about all of them know about my political change and therefore have at least a rough idea of my politics.

Ever since the COVID phenomenon began, though, I’ve noticed that most of them can’t seem to resist dropping quick political statements into the conversation, usually about Trump. These come unexpectedly and are often just a sentence long. They are a sorrowful reminder (although I really don’t need reminding) of the gap between most people I know and me. In this time of loneliness, that makes me feel even more lonely.

I’ve noticed that these statements seem to take one (or both) of two forms. The first one can be summed up as “Trump did nothing and that let coronavirus get a grip here.” The second is “Trump hates science.”

Let me assure you that all these people are very smart in the conventional sense. But they have been Democrats all their lives and they get their news solely from sources such as the NY Times, NPR, CNN, MSNBC, and the New Yorker. Plus, they live in places where the vast vast majority of people they meet agree with them. It occurred to me the other day that I’m probably the only person most of them know who might disagree with them on politics. Or at least, the only one to whom they still talk.

Sometimes I think that what’s happening is just a form of habit. People are used to throwing a few Trump-bombs into the conversation, have everyone nod, and then move on to the next topic. It’s almost like saying “Ummm” or “Uhhh” during a pause in the conversation. So even though my politics are known to them, they may not be trying to start a fight or even a discussion with me. They may just be assuming I’ll agree, because doesn’t everyone?

Even though I realize I will not convince a single person, I usually respond by saying something on the order of “Well, you know, Trump actually did do quite a bit early on” and list things such as the early travel restrictions on China and the appointment of the task force. The task force is especially useful because there are plenty of scientists on it, the better to refute the “Trump hates science and doesn’t believe in it” contention.

But after I state my small piece, there’s usually a silence and then we go on to another topic. It’s treated as though I did something a bit rude but rather minor, like burping loudly in public, something that’s best ignored.

I had originally wanted to end this post with a timeline showing the Trump administration’s actual responses to COVID-19. But I got tired of looking for a site with the information. No matter which search engine I used (although DuckDuckGo was much better than Google), I got inundated with articles saying how awful Trump was and how terribly he’d messed up, rather than an actual list of actions that had been taken.

So I’ve given up for now; perhaps you can find it. The only thing I found – and only through DuckDuckGo – were a few statements such as this one from people already involved in the administration, and this statement by Marc Siegel, a doctor who often comments at Fox. These few positive articles were lost against the vast and concerted effort to say “Trump did nothing, and what he did was awful.”

It’s really quite impressive to see the coordination and scope of the effort to get the word out. And my friends have certainly received the message, loud and clear.

[NOTE: And please don’t tell me to get new friends. Some of the people I’m describing are beloved relatives, and the rest are long-term friends I care about and who cannot be replaced and would be sorely missed. And yes, I do have some friends (and an ex-husband with whom I’m friendly) who are in basic political agreement with me. But they are very much in the minority.]

Comments

Conversations with friends: “Trump did nothing” — 147 Comments

  1. Neo,

    It is impossible to have a rational conversation with someone who is infected with the TDS virus. They are delusional and brainwashed by the media and the educational system through which they have passed. They cannot process facts.

    It is a sad fact that something like 36% of the electorate have swallowed the poison that this is the most evil nation in history and that the US must be “fundamentally changed.” Trump is seen as an impediment to this change.

  3. It is an unfortunate fact of this moment in our country’s history that the people who are most likely to be immune to facts, evidence and reasoned argument, are those who are products of our most prestigious institutions of higher (mis)education and those who are possessed of the greatest influence in our academic and journalistic establishment. One is reminded of the quotation probably not from Orwell that “some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

  6. Extremely depressing.
    One can only hope that the DECENT people out there
    – understand the true picture of what it’s been possible to do given the circumstances and nature of the disease, and its monstrous trajectory in almost every place where it has already hit (and is about to hit),
    – understand the true, utterly dishonest nature of the MSM, its goals and its agenda,
    – understand that we should all be pulling together at this time instead of weakening the country by piling on the President and his advisors, who are doing his, and their, best in an almost impossible situation,
    – understand that the easiest thing in the world to do is to cast blame while refusing to acknowledge one’s own mistakes—as well as refusing to acknowledge the successes that Trump and his administration has had, as well as the plaudits he’s received even from certain political foes, in this extremely complex and uphill fight. Just one example:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8160505/New-Orleans-mayor-slams-Trump-not-warning-city-not-hold-Mardi-Gras-sparked-outbreak.html
    – understand how the CDC has fallen down in this whole ghastly episode.
    Well, one can hope….
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-27/abbott-launches-5-minute-covid-19-test-for-use-almost-anywhere

    Related – Mark Hemingway surveys the media but seems to me to be quite a bit too forgiving:
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/27/pandemic_brings_out_the_best_and_the_worst_in_the_media_142791.html
    H/T for both links: Powerline blog

  8. Speaking of smart people (I presume) who make stupid comments, Foreign Policy has an essay entitled “The Death of American Competence,” by Harvard professor of international relations Steven Walt. In his moderately long essay he points out all the things Trump has gotten wrong, but ignores all the things that Trump has not touched that have gone seriously wrong on their own. It is a stupefying example of psychological projection — the stuff he lists are the failings of the left, not the right, yet he continues throughout his piece to blame Trump and conservatives for the disasters.

    My jaw was on the floor as I read it. Did he even read what he had written? Did he ever trying substituting “Hillary” for “Trump” in his examples, virtually all of which work either way? It was stunning in its myopia and arrogance. When I could stand no more I finally dashed off a reply to the so-called professor of international relations. Does he really teach young minds what he wrote for the pages of Foreign Policy? Do they believe a word of it? (Yes, I’m sure the answer to both questions is ‘yes’.)

    There was a time I would not have dared question a word written by a Harvard professor. But this was just stupefyingly obtuse. I doubt my reply will be published, but I had to say it. Maybe, just maybe, someone who sees it on the editorial staff will say “hmmm” when it comes over the transom, and question some of their cherished dogmas.

  9. You can get an up-to-date timeline of Trump administration actions through March 26 at Trump War Room.

  14. Jim Geraghty has a good piece up at NRO about what De Blasio and other New Yorkers have done. He starts off with Trump, but then gives a timeline for all back and forth advice from the folks who run NY. There was certainly no coherent policy to avoid what they are now going through. It is a great contrast to the Trump did nothing arguments.

  15. I too have been talking to quite a few people on the phone lately that I don’t usually talk to that often and this can work opposite to your experience. One of my sisters I talk to much more often normally and we actually got into a minor argument the other day over Cuomo’s asinine if it saves one life comment which she agreed with which was just too much for me so had to take a break from her. But my other sister that I talk to much less often normally because she is very busy with work usually I have been talking with a lot and we pretty much agree on this stuff completely so that’s been nice. She did vote for Trump but isn’t a big fan and did vote for Obama twice and swoons about Michelle to a nauseating level so she isn’t totally simpatico with me politically.

    The other thing that I’ve noticed today is more people I’m in contact with are reaching the boredom stage with all this and if this goes on this is going to be an issue if people aren’t seeing death and sickness in their own communities and it’s why some relaxation has to happen in the many, many areas where this is not a big problem.

    NY/NJ/CT on the other hand…

  16. I really appreciate this piece. I live “Down Under” and the country I live in has begun a month long quarantine. The opposing party of the the current prime minister has called a truce on politics, because this virus affects everyone. The country is coming together.
    I called family and old friends in America to check in and find out how they are doing. They are nervous and cautious, and following the rules for their quarantine and living their lives. The call with my family was a group call. One member dropped a “little political statement (well said)” about Trump and laugh. I agree it is lonely and boring. I do not understand the value they think hating a politically figure so passionately gives them. Life goes on and I think looking back on your life, waisting energy and time on hating someone you will never meet is rather sad.

  18. JHCorcoran,

    ‘hating someone you will never meet is rather sad’

    Totally agree with this and short of murderers or criminals I always try to practice this. I didn’t hate Obama or Bill Clinton even if I disagreed with them on most issues in fact we probably would have many things (golf, sports to name a couple) in common.

    I think social media and the internet in general has greatly magnified this hate on the left but it is also there on the right far too much for my liking.

  19. And please don’t tell me to get new friends. Some of the people I’m describing are beloved relatives, and the rest are long-term friends I care about and who cannot be replaced and would be sorely missed.

    By coincidence, friends and I were just discussing through group email messages our frustration with dealing with liberals who, even in the face of a crisis, persist in spewing distortions and outright falsehoods. So, I noted, “This is, of course, why it’s difficult for Republicans and Democrats to be in the same family.”

    And yes, I do have some friends (and an ex-husband with whom I’m friendly) who are in basic political agreement with me.

    Neo has an ex who is in basic political agreement with her!!! She’s ahead of many married conservatives.

  20. Trump Derangement Syndrome in the general population is largely centered in what I like to call the Elite Adjacent. These are generally college educated folks who aren’t actually important and don’t even really think they’re important but they very, very, VERY much wish to believe they’re just like the people who are important. They have a great deal of their self-image built on holding the “correct” beliefs and behaving in the “correct” manner.

    An example of the Elite Adjacent would be conservative pundit Rod Dreher. Despite having access to literally every possible news source in the world through his computer/phone, Dreher insists he simply MUST continue to read the New York Times even as he constantly bemoans how the times promotes anti-Christian persecution of people like himself. Dreher has to keep reading the Times because he prides himself on being “The Sort of Person Who Reads The New York Times” and if he stops reading, he can no longer think of himself as that sort of person.

    Then along comes Trump who doesn’t just smash but pretty much takes a big steaming dump on the social signifiers upon which the Elite Adjacent base much of their ego and self-respect. Trump fatally wounded the vanity of a social class which didn’t even understand how profoundly vain it genuinely was. There’s no forgiveness for that because it would require acknowledging the real reason Trump bothers them so much.

    Mike

  21. Ira:

    Not only that, but my ex is also a changer, with about a six-month timelag behind my own change. Weird, eh?

  22. The impeachment timeline is noteworthy due to its overlap with the pandemic.
    The House inquiry stage was from September to November, 2019. Articles were approved by the House on December 18, 2019. Senate acquittal was not until February 5, 2020.

  23. Trying to discuss this across philosophical lines is nearly impossible, as most here know.
    “It’s for the old people..”
    Or “If we can save one life…”
    So the entire economy (the well being of millions) upheld hostage for one hypothetical life.
    And we are therefore heartless.

  24. Mbunge:

    Precisely. The number of otherwise rational people who believe they must read the NYTimes every day continues to astound me. Or listen to NPR, so they can have their propaganda selected for them. To what end? Are they better informed than someone who does not read the NYTimes or listen to NPR? Indeed they are not. I will admit they have little choice: they can read the Times or WashPost, they can watch CNN or MSNBC, but they’ll never learn what Trump is doing because those media outlets hate him so much. I wonder how much longer these so-called legacy media can retain the fiction that they report “the news”. Especially the so-called “paper of record.”

  26. My husband was waiting for a carryout pizza earlier this week. CNN was on the TV. He said if people watch CNN it’s no wonder they’re panicked. One would think we were dealing with the Black Death on CNN.

    What’s frustrating here is that all elective surgeries have been cancelled by order of the governor. Hospitals here are currently at 25% occupancy and they are furloughing people. And my husband needs a knee replacement. I understand it’s an effort to conserve supplies and be prepared, but it is frustrating.

  28. F,

    Most NPR people, the near religious listeners, at least the ones I have known, seem to be drawn to NPR’s tone; if you don’t pay too much attention to what is being said, it sounds like a bunch of reasonable folks talking about reasonable stuff. It’s the flip side of the coin of those Trump haters who are repulsed by his tone, no matter what he actually says or does.

    It’s quite shallow. Are there exceptions? Always. But I’ve known vanishingly few.

    Judgmental, I know. But I’m a judgmental guy and there’s no way around it.

  29. MBunge (@ 6:09),

    Concise and succinct. You have hit the nail on the head. Your last paragraph is a keeper.

    “Trump fatally wounded the vanity of a social class which didn’t even understand how profoundly vain it genuinely was.” Indeed!

  30. “Most NPR people, the near religious listeners, at least the ones I have known, seem to be drawn to NPR’s tone. . . .” [Fractal Rabbit @ 8:07]

    They obviously missed SNL’s wicked Schweddy Balls spoof of NPR with Ana Gasteyer, Molly Shannon and Alec Baldwin.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPpcfH_HHH8

  31. Trump did nothing? How about those state and local governments which have done everything possible to actually limit the public’s access to precise geographic and demographic information which might allow citizens to make informed judgments when they do need to engage in essential travel or business?

    I’m too angry at the moment to speak temperately about this, but this damnable malfeasance, done in the name of an anti-stigma PC mentality run amok, endangers lives.

    For an example of the contrary, see a county executive in the state of Michigan who has decided that this critical information is part of the public’s right to be informed on these critical health and welfare matters.

    https://www.macombdaily.com/news/coronavirus/covid–analysis-shows-eastpointe-is-county-s-current-hot/article_d72b2ec2-6ed4-11ea-91f2-afe3d98adfc3.html

    But you know … stigma … we are all in the same boat … and other songs of solidarity and inclusion. Even if it kills us.

  33. Most NPR people, the near religious listeners, at least the ones I have known, seem to be drawn to NPR’s tone; if you don’t pay too much attention to what is being said, it sounds like a bunch of reasonable folks talking about reasonable stuff.

    You know who talked that way? Barack Obama. That’s why they loved him so. And Mayor Pete. President Trump talks like a guy from Queens. They hate him.

  34. Not only that, but my ex is also a changer, with about a six-month timelag behind my own change. Weird, eh?

    Lucky you!. My ex never changed. That’s too bad for my daughter who, alas, is still a liberal and can still look to Mom as an example.

  35. I have had common experience(s). I share your pain. That said, I also have many people in my life who were avowedly and passionately liberal for most of their sentient years (as had I been) but who have moved since to the right.

    For what it’s worth, much as I love Boston and New York, cities I once knew as home (one by choice, the other by birth), it helps not living on the east coast anymore.

  36. T,

    Holy crap! It wasn’t just them that missed it. How did I never see that Schweddy Balls skit!?!?

    Possibly because, with the lone exception of The Hunt For Red October, I loathe Alec Baldwin so much, I immediately turn him off, or turn the channel. That will teach me.

  37. Fractal Rabbit,

    Much to my wife’s dismay, I, too, am a Red October fan. Alec Baldwin was also pretty good in Betelgeuse, but both of these films were apparently before he went over to the dark side.

  38. Naaah. Still talk to my sisters. The one in town always slips in a slur against the USA or a slam against President Trump. Always has, always will. You can’t divorce your relatives.

    Outside my sisters in the family, my immediate family consists of the Midwest Jewish Conservative Techie Brigadoon of Indy. Being there is a pleasure. Cousins and nieces and nephews, any comments from them go directly into the bit bucket.

    As far as online, I rely on the mighty Passive/Aggressive Howitzer of Epstein Didn’t Kill Himself.

  39. Neo’s experience with her friends dropping Trump statements reminds me of various faculty committee meetings. They would invariably open with someone making a joke/disparaging comment about conservatives, Republicans etc. It reminded me of the opening scripture reading at a mass. It was that ritualized.

  40. I was touched by this post because I recognize the situation so well. Like you, I used to be a lefty — no doubt more so than you — but became repelled by what the left became. Lost a friend or two in that, and reached a modus vivendi with others by largely avoiding politics, though in the Trump era of course that’s harder to do than ever. When it can’t be avoided — and since I know there’s no possible direct way to defend Trump or his administration that wouldn’t just bounce off Trump derangement — I tend to fall back on a light irony, and I think sometimes that undercuts their “passionate intensity”, but not often. The main comfort I find at the moment at least is that despite — or maybe because of — all that media hostility, Trump’s approval has actually increased. So we’re clearly not alone.

  41. “ But after I state my little piece, there’s usually a silence and then we go on to another topic.“

    I’m extremely familiar with that. I call it the “these go to eleven” reaction: the pause, the look of blank incomprehension, the repetition of the original mistake as if I’d said nothing, or, in some cases, the changing of the subject.

  42. “after I state my little piece, there’s usually a silence and then we go on to another topic. It’s treated as though I did something a bit rude but rather minor, like burping loudly in public, something that’s best ignored.” neo

    An unwillingness to examine contradictory information that can be easily confirmed is at base, motivated by fear. Our fears are the outlines of our self-imposed limits.

  43. I’m currently having a discussion with someone over at LI over clinical trials. We are dancing around the point. He wants strict clinical trials. I’m talking about clinical trials over a wide variety of options (negative on test, positive with no symptoms, positive with mild, etc) in order to find the sweet spot for giving the drug dose. But, if at some point the evidence is overwhelming in favor of the drugs,or not, then, the ethical thing to do is to stop the trials and proceed.

    I won’t repeat the arguments but it is this post… https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/03/wuhan-virus-watch-trump-considers-quarantine-on-new-york-new-jersey-connecticut/#more

    Very frustrating to talk to some people, but I’m sure he is saying the same thing about me – “we have to finish the trials!” I noticed that he hasn’t responded when I mentioned the work of the CDC and FDA about testing.

  44. Geoffrey Britain,

    “An unwillingness to examine contradictory information that can be easily confirmed is at base, motivated by fear. Our fears are the outlines of our self-imposed limits.”

    And as we Sci-Fi fans were taught, “Fear is the mind-killer.”

  45. My very Democratic Liberal brother has major TDS, at least on Facebook. Talking to him the other day I confided that I wanted to get a shotgun for home defense. He was shocked. He reeled out, like reading from a script, every liberal gun control talking point, including mocking me.

    I’d been holding my tongue for a few years now about politics, but with recent events, the pandemic, NY bail reform and numerous break-ins happening in my town, it was just too much. Too existential, shall we say, with virtue signaling threatening my literal physical safety.

    So, I called him out on the political kumbaya. Shockingly, he backed down. Actually, he did more than back down, he did a total 180. He said he was thrilled. He was suddenly like all pro 2A. What?

    Anyway, next day I went and bought a Remington 12 gauge shotgun. Pretty much the only thing left in the store. It was apparently in the nick of time because right after they closed gun stores in my state. I also managed to get in a gun safety and home defense lesson with a former ICE officer at a shooting range, even hitting the bulls eye, all while maintaining a safe social distance.

    Telling my brother about my big adventure, he was hanging on every word, ICE agent and all, and saying how proud he was of me.

    Maybe instead of holding one’s tongue, what’s needed is strong push back? Though honestly, I probably don’t have the stomach to argue with anyone besides my brother. But, maybe now would be a good time. No one is inviting anyone to dinner parties and we may all die anyway.

  46. “And please don’t tell me to get new friends”

    I’m New Yorker that ended up in MA too. I have friends and family on the left as well.

  47. And about that NPR tone: the single most striking quality about to me, I realized some years ago, is that it’s *smug*. I’ve always liked a lot of things on NPR, and used to like All Things Considered and Morning Edition, when they were dealing with things where their Democratic politics weren’t directly involved. But that so-very-pleased-with-ourselves quality bothered me more and more until now I can hardly stand to hear them at all. But then I can’t divorce the tone from the politico-religious (religio-political?) mindset.

    physicsguy: “…various faculty committee meetings. They would invariably open with someone making a joke/disparaging comment about conservatives, Republicans etc. It reminded me of the opening scripture reading at a mass. It was that ritualized.”

    Yeah. I was on staff at a college for many years, starting in the early ’90s, after some time in corporate high-tech, and it was one of the first thing I noticed when I started working there.

  50. Glad you are pushing back, Neo. You never know when you may start a chain reaction in someone’s mind. I remember a few conservative remarks that stuck with me when I was a brain dead liberal. They were undeniable facts. ‘Middle class people need housing, too.’ They didn’t change my mind at the time but I think they eventually contributed to the scales falling later.
    A suggestion regarding persuasive pushback and ideas that stick. Limit it to ‘One Undeniable Point’. Liberal thinking is based on emotion, not reason, and as a wise man once said; ‘You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason their way into.’ So skip the rational argument – it bores them and makes their heads hurt and then they get mad at you – and make one strong undeniable point. Right now mine is; ‘Thank God Trump cut off travel from China back in January, imagine how much worse it would be if he hadn’t. And he got called ‘racist’ for it! There’s just no pleasing some people.’
    BTW, that silence after you pushback is a good sign. It means they haven’t yet processed the current rebuttal rationale and you might actually have penetrated their defenses!
    MBunge,
    The French have a term for that type. ‘Bien Pensant’. And I agree with you 100%.
    Many years ago I watched MacNeil Leher and listened to NPR. Then one day I heard a female, black commentator refer to ‘well meaning white people’. Sneeringly. Turned it off and never looked back. And I was still a liberal then – at least, I thought I was!
    Esther,
    You go girl!
    Now does anyone want to hear my story about how Alec Baldwin hit on my baby sister?

  51. “Right now mine is; ‘Thank God Trump cut off travel from China back in January, imagine how much worse it would be if he hadn’t. And he got called ‘racist’ for it!” Molly Brown

    I’ve also approached conversations with Democrats in the same manner you describe, stick with one fact, avoid the emotional wrangling. And the current one you cited is my one point I’ve been stating as well. However a little more emphatically as in, “we would look like Italy on steroids had not the President closed off travel from China at the end of January for which his usual detractors excoriated him.”

  52. Sharon, sticking to one fact is a very useful strategy in a debate when you’re dealing with people who base their arguments in fake news. They use to jump a lot, going from bold statement to bold statement. So making clear they’re bringing another topic which you’re not entering that moment, and bringing the debate back to topic works very well.

    BUT…

    Bringing the debate repeatedly back to topic can be very aggressive, since the usual flow in a friendly conversation is following what the other person says. That doesn’t matter in internet debates, and having the other person flying off the handle and insulting you is actually a good way to “win” a debate. However, when you’re talking with people you care about, the last thing you want to do is to hurt them or to start a quarrel.

    And that’s the big problem. I’m used to “win” internet political debates easily. However, I can’t do the same when I talk with friends and close people. I care too much about them, and I haven’t found a single way to “win” those debates without hurting them. The more you can do is to try to raise some doubts, and hope they’ll root.

  53. Three days ago I wrote a comment on the Youtube channel “Blue Collar Logic”: I usually enjoy what’s said there, also because I’m intrigued by the host’s background.
    In fact, one of the two guys running the channel is an ex-liberal who realized, at some point, he was agreeing more more with conservative perspectives, and eventually accepted the “dreadful” thing: he was actually a conservative.

    This time, however, I had to disagree with the video message, which was about the host’s suppositions about the causes of Italy’s outstanding numbers. In my (Italian) opinion, most of his alleged causes are based on outdated stereotypes about Italian lifestyle, things like: living with grandma and grandpa, kissing and hugging, lot of smokers and so on. This kind of stuff is not true any more, especially in northern Italy, where the serious epidemic is happening.

    In that post, beside criticizing the stereotypes, I briefly repeated my view on this matter: that the epidemic is doing a great and really scaring damage – but only in a relatively small area, comprising the southern (Lodi, Cremona) and especially the eastern (Bergamo, Brescia) part of Lombardy, together with the bordering provinces of Piacenza and some others, to a lesser extent.
    I didn’t add some other important (IMO) observations, which I repeat now:
    Everywhere else the pandemic is – for reason still to be understood – barely noticeable in its effects; for this reason I support a policy of prudent optimism: it’s important (as demonstrated in Veneto) to test and isolate positives, but it makes no sense to shut down everything in every situation.

    I didn’t receive many answers to my post but – certainly because I didn’t express there my more conservative ideas about policies – I got a comment from an ITALIAN guy, who wrote:
    “Paolo, perché perdi tempo a parlare con questi idioti razzisti trumpisti. Sono solo delle teste piene di m…” -> “Paolo, why are you wasting time with these idiots racist trump-ists. They are only heads full of s**t.”
    I don’t think he enjoyed my reply – to the effect that I can usually talk reasonably among those “trumpists”, which is instead impossible in the opposite field; and that I didn’t find his own approach to be enlightened in the least.
    To be honest, I didn’t say to him that I am myself a so-called conservative (actually, a Catholic), and even one who comes from a very progressive family, in the Italian socialist/communist tradition, which I shared until some years after I converted religiously (that happened in 1984, when I was 17).

    I’m sorry you in America are experiencing this kind of polarization, which in Italy is raging since the end of WWII: it’s not only very damaging, it’s a deliberate strategical method originated in the minds of Communist intellectuals – who are the real culprits here, of course intelligent people appealing to the worst human attitudes which are so common among the affluent and educated classes: snobbery, envy and resentment. [I totally agree with what MBunge wrote at 6:09 pm]
    There is no way – short of a thunder from the sky – to convince the intellectual ideologues: they are often really corrupted and corrupting souls. It’s also very difficult with the non-ideologues, but hard times put many minds back on the sanity road.

    Let’s be patient and never tire to look for the Truth and the Good, especially in human relations with friends and relatives: I was able to really reconcile with my father only on his death bed.

  54. Sorry for my long comments. I don’t kiss and hug, but evidently I talk too much.

  55. Molly Brown,

    Does the story about Alec Baldwin involve you or your sister kicking him the jewels? I would listen to a story like that like a little kid, every night before bed.

  56. Paola,

    “Sorry for my long comment. I don’t kiss and hug, but evidently I talk to too much.”

    Thanks for that comment. It’s good to hear right from the action as it were. My prayers go out to you and your family and your country.

    It’s funny that you mention hugging and kissing. My own preconceived outdated Italian stereotype is that they waive their arms and shout when they talk, that every discussion looks like an argument.

    It’s good to know the smoking thing has changed. I remember it being a “European thing” more than associate with any specific country. When I traveled to Europe as an exchange student in the early 90’s (Leeuwarden, Friesland in the Netherlands) smoking it seemed, to an American (where the habit was already on the decline) was everywhere. I remember seeing teenagers outside of schools smoking with teachers and nobody thought much of it. And I took a few trips by train and that seemed to be the norm around the continent.

    I remember American smoking habits (like I said being on the decline) being one of the many “tells” from a distance on how Europeans ‘spotted’ us: We talk loud. We wear sneakers everywhere, even museums and church. And we would make faces from all the smoking. I’m sure I could remember more.

    Take care, Paolo.

  57. Apologies for putting this here…I know a bit off topic but I tend to put these on the top most popular thread.

    Morning update on yesterday’s data: interesting developments! The NY active cases is now trending linear over the last 3 days; perfectly fit with a linear regression and way off of an exponential. Exponential fit predicted 150,000 cases for US and yesterday ended up with 118,000 As a result the US cases continues to move away from exponential fit and it also for the last 3 days shows a much more linear character. Serious cases show a “shoulder” over the last 3 days.

    A few more days of this, and we might start to see the long awaited “shoulder”.

  58. Fractal Rabbit, how the Americans are perceived in Europe has changed through the years. The old archetype used to be arrogant and self-confident loud-talkers. They were seen as annoying, but smart and competent. That has vanished, you can only see it when you watch old movies.

    Modern view sees Americans as crazy rednecks or as androgynous giggling idiots. In general, the general perception of Americans right now is that they’re a bunch of incompetent idiots, either in the redneck or in the giggling variant. It’s scary how much it has changed in a few years.

    Probably, US itself is to be blamed. You spend two decades speaking repeatedly about how evil you are, perhaps you expect to score points as virtuous and noble because the constant self-criticism. Truth is people will end up thinking you were actually evil, and what’s more, besides evil, you must be stupid too.

  59. Mac:

    Smug. Exactly. I should have included that in my thoughts about NPR. But it is not only their tone — what really sets me off about NPR is their choice of topics. If you read conservative news and opinion, and then turn on NPR, you are immediately struck by what they DO NOT talk about. That is their tell.

  61. Yann on Modern view sees Americans as crazy rednecks or as androgynous giggling idiots. In general, the general perception of Americans right now is that they’re a bunch of incompetent idiots, either in the redneck or in the giggling variant. It’s scary how much it has changed in a few years.

    you’ve described how American women act when vacationing…
    [often to “do something crazy” in their lives]

  62. In what has developed—inevitably—into a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” nightmarish scenario for the President and those responsible for making difficult decisions, the Democratic Party, with some—if few—exceptions, and its feral MSM cohort has been eagerly exploiting every “gotcha” in their foul arsenal.

    No doubt they believe it is in their interest to do so.

    The big question is whether they’ll be proven right.

  63. My entire family (parents, 3 siblings) is in advanced TDS. Well, not my father, who is 98 and not so sharp any more. But the others are just nuts. Sister marched with the pink pussy hat, mother (93 but still sharp) can’t get through a phone conversation without bringing up Trump’s latest “outrage.” I just avoid/change the subject. Family get-togethers have been ok because of the avoidance of politics. I’d love to have a serious discussion with them and explain my views, but it’s hopeless. They get all their news from the NYT and NPR. They can’t see beyond the bubble. And I do see the NYT and other MSM so I’m not in my own bubble.

  64. Yann, I agree with you about not aggressively pursuing subject to subject with friends and family, that is why I concurred with Molly Brown that one point is usually best. I’ve only encountered attempts to bait me in the back and forth like you describe by a couple people. I always let it go. Not worth it. You know whether or not there is a good purpose to the interchange.

    Paolo, so appreciate your first-hand point-of-view. I had copied your original comment and shared it with some friends and one of them was spurred to contact cousins in Brescia she hadn’t spoken with since she visited 40 years ago. They had a family reunion via FB, so she thanked me for sharing what you wrote.

    And I join others in thanking M Bunge for his assessment of how it is that we’ve arrived at this divisive place in our public/private sphere.

  67. I’m pretty sure that smart people think for themselves.

    If your views are in lock step with the MSM that should give a self described smart person cause for concern. But that’s work and fusing your mind to the hive is easy.

  68. I may have persuaded my ultra-progressive sister to avoid the little pin-pricks most of the time, but this week she started to salt the conversation with tidbits about how inexplicably the feds seem to be expecting the state and local governments to carry most of the load. She finds this is particularly amazing given that state and local governments are hamstrung by requirements to balance their budget, while the feds could create wealth out of thin air if they cared enough to help. There’s often a little snipe at “profit,” without which evil principle everything would be free rainbows and ice cream.

    I’ve taken to replying to any economic broadside with a bland observation that we disagree on some basic principles, and declining to get into the quarrel. If she continues explaining to me what’s wrong with whatever, I revert to “Yes, I know,” repeated as endlessly as necessary until she stops.

    I should mention that 99% of these exchanges are by text, as I’ve nearly given up talking to her on the phone. In a text conversation, I can cool off for a moment before responding. This is a person whose emotional, family, professional, and economic life has been in howling chaos for decades. It’s not my job to make her understand how she sabotages her whole life with a large set of completely unworkable principles. Any attempt to discuss it draws her into resentment that my life is not as miserable as hers, so I try to express sympathy without letting her get any conversational hooks into me. It’s sadly distant, though. I’m sure I can remember when her mind was more open.

    I’m very fortunate in my husband of 37 years. We both crossed over politically about 25 years ago.

  69. I know of what you speak. Although our experiences are different, I too have experienced what you have. I’m not making excuses for them, I’m not here to tell you how to handle it.
    What I know is that ‘find new friends’ works up till your 40s- maybe 50s. After that, it is very very hard to do. there is nothing like the people who have gone through life with you, that is irreplaceable. Sure new people will come into your life, maybe you will develop a real friendship with one or two of them. Often, not, it is nice companionship, but that is not the same.
    Also, 20 years ago, when the first big shift happened and blogs like yours appeared, there were ways to meet people on the same wave length. But guess what, it turns out that politics isn’t a good basis for friendship. I made many new ‘friends’, with just a handful of them were there other reasons for our relationship. Those who just harped on politics – I dropped quickly.
    So yes, I hold my tongue, I hear the lashes, or, I lash back, or I stop communicating. But the pain of it all doesn’t go away.

    I have no remedy, all I can offer is my compassion and somewhat shared experience. Also, don’t let go of those friends, they offer more than their anger. Lucky for you, you do have this blog where you can vent, that is a very good thing.

  70. After a calm day or two, right wing Twitter is back to losing their damn minds. So, I think it is valuable to point out that if what’s happening in New York were happening all across the country, instead of 123,000 cases and 2,000 deaths we’d currently have 990,000 cases and 13,000 deaths.

    Of course, the rest of the country wouldn’t look exactly like New York because the rest of us (even the biggest cities) don’t live as nuts to butts as they do in NYC. But things could look a lot worse than they do and, more importantly, they would have looked a lot worse in the weeks to come if we hadn’t already taken the steps we have.

    I’m not saying it’s wrong to be focused on the reality of this outbreak or the devastating impact on the economy. But there’s a difference between appropriate concern about overreaction and hysterical paranoia about the entirely normal steps that would always be taken to control a deadly pandemic.

    Mike

  71. Fractal Rabbit:

    Most NPR people, the near religious listeners, at least the ones I have known, seem to be drawn to NPR’s tone; if you don’t pay too much attention to what is being said, it sounds like a bunch of reasonable folks talking about reasonable stuff.

    Mac:

    And about that NPR tone: the single most striking quality about to me, I realized some years ago, is that it’s *smug*.

    During the years that Reagan ran for President I changed from voting Democrat to voting Third Party, as in “none of the above.” As I voted for neither Democrat nor Republican, I was inclined to hear a neutral discussion of election results. In NPR’s discussion of the 1984 election results, the sneering, condescending tone of the NPR announcers towards Regan’s victory was quite evident. That showed me that NPR was not an objective source.

  72. After 9/11 NPR was still using the doddering Daniel Schorr as a political and foreign affairs expert commentator. He was of course in his usual blame all things conservative and American mode, his only one. I had been a regular listener for 20+ years at that time, but turned it off and never have gone back. NPR is the dog turd on the sidewalk of the radio universe.

  73. The NY active cases is now trending linear over the last 3 days

    Noticed that in the national data also. Of course the national data is driven by NY 🙂 The linear trend marks an inflection point, which very roughly speaking means halfway to the end of the logistic like curve of cumulative cases and the start of a decreasing number of new cases. We will see.

  74. The MSM and anti-Trumper politicians have formed their narrative with particular talking points.

    + Trump dismissed CDC’s warnings of COVID-10 in early Jan.
    + This dismissal led to a shortage of hospital equipment and materials (NYTs interviewed a stressed out doctor in Elmhurst, Queens, NYC).
    + Trump is indirectly encouraging violence and racism towards Asian-Americans by his usage of the “Chinese flu.”
    + Governors (i.e. Pritzker) are doing Trump’s job (i.e. telling residents to stay inside, giving them a sense of hope and safety) as he tweets.
    + Trump’s dismissal of certain CDC positions and teams caused the delay in finding a cure.

    I may have missed a couple. And the gullible just eat up the false preaching.

  75. We all have had those conversations. People on the left appear to have almost no level of self-awareness. They will also never change their minds, as what they believe, no matter how much they insist otherwise, is not “evidence-based,” or, “science-based.” What they believe is based on pure emotion. They also live in an echo chamber. The air they breathe is left-wing.

    The left’s view of the conservative position, on any issue, is primarily a cartoon. It’s what they get from those silly media people. Oddly enough, a conservative view of what the left thinks, on any issue, is inclined to be accurate. Why? Because we hear that position 24 hours a day.

    We all breathe that same air.

    The left is also stuck in time. It is always 1961, it is always Selma, Alabama. For instance, talking on the phone with one of my uber liberal friends, I complained about money in the bailout bill going to Wall Street and other well-connected types. She said, “why you sound like a liberal.” I wonder, if she gave it any mind, what she would think of the $350 million for refugee relief, $25 million to the Kennedy Center, etc., of if she realized at all that Wall Street is run by rich Democrats.

    Stuck in time. The left thinks corporate America is somehow conservative. That hasn’t been so for a long, long time. Somehow, the left lives in a world where Maine, New Hampshire & Vermont are rock-ribbed conservative outposts, and not colonies of NY, NJ, CT & MA expats.

    Like you, Neo. I never argue. What would be the point? Argue and you run the risk of losing a long-term friendship. As others have pointed out, it isn’t easy to make new friends after you reach a certain age.

  76. Kate said, “My husband was waiting for a carryout pizza earlier this week. CNN was on the TV. He said if people watch CNN it’s no wonder they’re panicked. One would think we were dealing with the Black Death on CNN”

    Basically my mother, though she is within the population that is the most vulnerable to COVID-19 as is most of her friends. It is understandable of her concerns, but the MSM isn’t doing her any favors.

    F: I have a sibling that lives in NYC who listens to a number of NPR podcasts. Just a few days ago we were exchanging texts related to the crisis where he said, “We’re all safe under Nazi Trump,” or something to that effect. He then later complained that his matzo ball soup looked too plain. I assured him that’s how matzo ball soup tends to look like – just a ball submerged in semi-clear broth.

  79. Paolo, thanks for coming here again to give us your insight. I continue to pray for your family and for your country.

  80. Yann commenting on the “hammer one point and maybe it will get across” approach:

    Bringing the debate repeatedly back to topic can be very aggressive, since the usual flow in a friendly conversation is following what the other person says. That doesn’t matter in internet debates, and having the other person flying off the handle and insulting you is actually a good way to “win” a debate. However, when you’re talking with people you care about, the last thing you want to do is to hurt them or to start a quarrel.
    ————————
    1. If they move on to another anti-Trump statement, it’s still the same discussion.

    2. Something that works is to draw what’s happening up into awareness, then move on.

    “Before we go on to another point, do you have anything to say about this – so we agree that (…Trump acted correctly in closing down flights from China)”

    3. Another tactic is to trap them with their own self-regard:

    “With your great concern for saving even just one life, I’m sure you agree that Trump was prescient and correct to stop flights from China, despite what the talking heads said…”

    … but I can count on one hand the people in my life worth this kind of trouble. I tend to agree with other posters here – the election of Trump has created opportunities for pushback. For every hard-core Marxist there are dozens of bewildered sincere liberals – and hundreds of bien-pensant poseurs… many of these are starting to wake up to the awful direction in which they have been led.

    And tone matters more to the poseurs than substance. Conservative opinions stated with confidence and true caritas often work.

  81. F at 9:47 am . . .

    “If you read conservative news and opinion, and then turn on NPR, you are immediately struck by what they DO NOT talk about. That is their tell.”

    You mean . . . you mean . . . you mean . . . “All Things Considered” doesn’t get around to considering all things??

  82. All my liberal friends have been in a state of round the clock fury for several years. They have been blaming Trump for everything, now the spread of the virus. To prove it, they have charts and graphs.

    It occurs to me though, all the charts and graphs also correlate to their unrelenting rage. So, it’s just as possible that is to blame for the virus pandemic… but I’m not going to say it, because that would be dangerous.

  83. Paolo Pagliaro:

    Your comments are extremely welcome here and not even close to being too long. Please continue to let us know how it’s going!

  84. The MSM is unaware of itself. On ABC this morning Jonathon Karl discussed his new book about Trump on how Trump was a self-promoter while ironically promoting his own book. Also, The Daily Caller has a time line of the virus on 3-27-20.

  85. I feel obliged to answer your nice replies… as briefly as I can – I will fail, I know.

    @Fractal Rabbit
    Of course, we Italians didn’t lose our national character, however it changed; I guess our behavior is still “interesting”: I waive my arms a lot and make all the typical gestures you probably find funny, and I realize they really are. A good “lecture” (a little bit in the southern style) about that, featuring the fundamental hand-gesture “a coppino”, can be seen here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZk5rAVuNsc
    Once you master the “a coppino” gesture, you can really argue with us and you will deserve a dish of spaghetti!

    I also smoked for 30 years, starting at 15 when I was a precocious left-leaning adolescent: smoking was cool!
    I quit on Christmas day, 2012 – but mainly for economical reason, smoking is very pleasant in some circumstances (now I appreciate the improved health, as well). However, in high school I was the only heavy smoker in my class, and now it’s not so common any more.

    Since public culture is slanted to the left, the US are often depicted as a greedy country, only moved by money and self-interest. Most don’t buy that, some do but only for political assumptions, we don’t trust the media since a long time; movies and pop culture are the main sources of ideas about you, I guess.

    In general, I’d say that the average Italian is as ignorant about, and disinterested in, the American true character as the average American is in ours. Trivial and false generalizations abound, but with no real hostility. I think that most Italians have some affection for the US: certainly those of a certain age who know history, and those who understood what Reagan did for eastern Europe – which now is the saner place in the old continent.

    A widespread perception is that Americans are ignorant. When I began to interact on American blogs some years ago, mainly on matters related to religion, I admit I was surprised to learn that on average they were exceedingly more competent than we are, sometimes to a level bordering on the professional. I also find that discussions on American blogs – at least the ones I frequent – are less bitter and people more open than what’s the case here.
    Personal, the tract of the American character I like the most is honesty and frankness. What I envy is the patriotism: you have the most beautiful anthem and I’ve been moved to tears many times, seeing you united in that song and the love for your country.

    Thank you for your prayers, they are much needed.

  86. @Sharon W

    Thanks God, I am SO glad that that post was the indirect reason behind this familiar reunion, this is wonderful! The Internet is an amazing instrument.

    My dear late mom (an unstoppable fury, as unwise as she was generous) was born in Brescia as well – a beautiful city.

    Thank you, you made my day!

  87. @Owen

    Your Italian is nearly perfect, thank you for your support.

    @Kate

    Your prayers are really welcome, I keep you and your country in my thoughts, not only about the current crisis. Thank you so much

    @neo

    Thank you Neo. I promise I’m not so invasive in real life.
    I’m reading your posts since a long time: sincerely, I think you are a wise, sensitive and beautiful person.

  88. Another thing I always found irksome about NPR-speak is how they go out of their way to pronounce common words in English that come from Spanish or Italian with exaggerated accents, rolling the ‘r’s and accenting. Also names, even of Americans. Sort of how Obama would say “Pahkeestahn.”

  90. M. Bunge: “Then along comes Trump who doesn’t just smash but pretty much takes a big steaming dump on the social signifiers upon which the Elite Adjacent base much of their ego and self-respect. Trump fatally wounded the vanity of a social class which didn’t even understand how profoundly vain it genuinely was. There’s no forgiveness for that because it would require acknowledging the real reason Trump bothers them so much.”

    On target. I had a cousin who was “connected” in San Francisco society. People who considered themselves the movers and shakers in “The City.” Actually, they were just academics and intellectuals in the NPR mode. Oh so well informed and with it. (In their minds.) I once attended a cocktail party where I met and conversed with some of these oh so enlightened elites. In fact these were people with theories about how the world should be with little knowledge of human nature. As a lowly person in military uniform I was treated as an object of pity. How could anyone related to my enlightened cousin be so stupid as to actually serve in the armed forces? They were so smug, so morally superior. After fifteen minutes I was ready to leave. But the party lasted three hours. Pure torture. I did learn a lot about the segment of our country who would bend all of us to their will.

    Yes, to these people Trump looks like someone who is too stupid to realize that they know best. Kinda like me back in the day.

  92. Paolo, on idle curiosity looking at “a coppino” and guessing at cognates (i.e. chopping, coptering [from helicopter], mincing [from chopping] and whatnot), I ran “a coppino” through the Google translate and got, uh, we might say “zippo”, diddly, nada. That short video was great fun for me, by the by.

    I’ve subsequently decided without evidence that a strict-ish translation to English would be “little cup”. Can you shed light on that, as good, bad, indifferent? Tanks.

  93. Ha, thanks neo. You can always count on Winnie not to mince words, so to speak. I was annoyed when Peking and Canton became Beijing and Guangzhou. And of course we have Mumbai, Kolkata, and Chenai now. Yet we still call Roma ‘Rome,’ Venezia ‘Venice,’ and prounounce Paris ‘Pariss.’ Methinks there’s some patronizing toward what were then 3rd world cultures.

  94. I think I won’t try the Italian hand-talking, for fear I might inadvertently say something awful.

    And yes, when I lived overseas, I learned people think that Americans really do behave like the movies and TV shows. And they think CNN International is telling them the truth!

  95. “…I’ve noticed that most of them can’t seem to resist dropping little political statements into the conversation, usually about Trump. ”

    David Thompson calls this ‘the blurt’. Doesn’t seem to matter if the topic of conversation is gardening or motor oil viscosity, somebody is going to take a juvenile shot at Trump.

  96. Jimmy,

    I used to listen to NPR radio during my commute, and like everyone else here the smug turned me off, starting in the Bush years. But there was something else: the house style.

    On CNN, every reporter ends their piece with “… this is Joe Blow [pause] CNNnnnnnnn”.

    On NPR, every reporter starts with a little audible gasp as they inhale to speak:

    Joe in the field: “[uhh] In Omaha, life goes on blah blah [snip] and it’s all Trump’s fault. This is Joe Blow for National Public Radio.”
    Nancy in the studio: “[uhh] Joe, can you go into more detail about how it’s Trump’s fault?”
    Joe: “[uhh] Well, Nancy, blah blah blah etc.”

    Once you hear it, you can’t unhear it, and it just grits my teeth every time now.

    You’d think they’d realize we can hear them do that, and it’s not how people normally talk. Presumably some prestigious NPR reporter in the mists of time told his sound man not to edit that out, and everyone has just been copying him ever since even if they don’t realize it.

  97. I have read that in past years, depending on the particular year and it’s various factors and conditions, the annual death toll from the flu in this country has ranged from a low of more than 20,000 to a high of more than 80,000.

    As had been glaringly obvious, and pointed out many times, the MSM is trying to create panic, to hype the seriousness and the threat from the Chinese Coronavirus Pandemic in any way they can to damage President Trump; to portray President Trump as first negligent and, now, clueless and ineffective in his response to this unprecedented and quick moving national and, indeed, world-wide emergency.

    Thus, as part of their campaign of dismissal and denigration, the members of the MSM are always quick to publicize and push the worst case scenarios and to belittle, criticize, and to second guess any step that President Trump takes to try to deal with this Chinese caused Pandemic.

    Thus, I was surprised to see Dr. Fauci on CNN today who–in response to Jake Tapper’s asking him, “how many deaths there were going to be–a million-ten million,”–saying that “worst case predictions rarely happen” but that, as things are looking now, Dr. Fauci thinks we can expect “millions of cases” and somewhere between 100,000 to 200,000 deaths. This, at a time when we now have less than 2,500 deaths so far here in the U.S.

    Why would Fauci give out this number–which while it isn’t a million or ten million–is still a very frightening number?

    Why alarm the public like this?

    Did he clear the release of this number with anyone, with the President?

    Is this his attempt to damage the President?

    Is this just “truth telling,” just preparing people for the inevitable?

    What is going on here?

    See https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/breaking-dr-fauci-tells-cnn-he-expects-between-100000-and-200000-coronavirus-deaths-in-us-based-on-what-were-seeing-video/

  98. Neo, your friends sound like the people in my circle in that if they could be really honest they would admit that they avidly desire the virus to kill as many Americans as possible (as long as they or no one they care about is affected). People I know are gleeful to the point of laughing and fist-pumping reporting the overnight death totals to start our meetings at work.

    These people I work with are the Elite Very-Adjacent (to quote MBunge above), and our daily meetings always begin or end (as physicsguy aptly pointed out) with a “scripture reading” ridiculing Trump’s latest catastrophic and deadly mistake that goes against all things SCIENCE!, with no regard for the human life they fully expect to be lost due to his actions. They spend all their time at work with one eye on the Hopkins website, making sure to update our online work group on the latest death tallies in the US, which usually receive responses accompanied by smiley face emojis. Keep in mind, a lot of these same people are responsible (or are good friends with the people) who are directly tasked to fight this pandemic, yet are actively rooting for the virus.

  99. santan:

    Fortunately, the people I know are nothing like that. There is no glee at all. They are upset, frightened, and angry at Trump because they read all the stuff that says it’s his fault, and they’ve been reading that sort of thing for his entire presidency (and earlier).

    What you say is very disturbing, though. Smiley faces? That’s obscene.

    My friends aren’t in the sort of work you’re describing. Some are in business, some are teachers, some are in health care. That sort of thing. Or they were – quite a few are retired.

  100. Snow On Pine,

    Well apparently Fauci has Trump under his spell because he is now extending the national SD thing until April 30 and says the country will be well on its way to recovery by June 1.

    I don’t know what his definition of recovery is but we will also be seeing 40% unemployment and perhaps half of all small businesses out of business and a great many large ones also with GDP for the coming quarter at something like -30-40%.

    Whether it will last as long who knows but this is very much looking like it will be far worse than The Great Depression in the near term.

    A complete and utter failure by govt on all levels.

  101. Snow on Pine:

    My guess would be that Fauci thinks of that as a reassuring number.

    First of all, it’s much less than predicted earlier. Secondly, it’s only somewhat bigger than a bad flu year.

    At this point, I’m not sure what the American public would think of that number. Compared to millions, it’s optimistic.

  102. neo,

    My thing with Fauci is he seems to be all over the map in his predictions and since he’s been elevated to a secular god when he says something it gets splashed everywhere and his caveat that it’s hard to know what the total will be is left out of many stories. Not to mention that people have no sense of how many people die of all kinds of different illnesses and accidents and crimes so they have no context to these numbers so it can be kind of irresponsible to just spout these numbers.

  103. Our brains watch trillions of input bits streaming in from our senses—the so called objective world—and simultaneously it watches itself internally processing this information and is aware of fatigue, depression, exhalation, thrills, hormones, sleepiness, hopes, desires, wishes, pain, hunger…thousands of subjective sensations…most having no direct connections with any objective world.

    The liberal brain seems to sense desires and wishes and hopes and yearnings…and many of the subjective sensations arising from the brain itself as if they are coming from the outside world, the objective world. So, apropos to this, a deep wish is interpreted as something that already exists in the real world. Thus we repeatedly see the paradox of the liberal wanting something deeply that seems impossible to the rest of us, and believing at the same time that it already exists in the objective world. Like Bernie’s conception of what is going on in Scandinavia.

    Of course, this is the central dilemma of postmodernism.

  104. Griffin:

    Agreed. He is also somewhat naive about the press, I think.

    But what is he to do? He wants to inform the public what the best estimate is at present. He says they don’t know, but he adds a rough estimate. The press quotes the estimate rather than the disclaimer. If he said nothing or “we just don’t know,” I don’t think it would be any better.

  105. neo,

    Yeah, I agree it is tough to know what to say.

    But one of the American truisms has always been that we have civilian leaders so in times of war the generals advise the president or congress and then they way the pros and cons and decide the best policy. Now it seems like we are being led by doctors and experts with models that drastically change from day to day all the while destroying millions of lives of people totally unaffected by the virus. I want a leader that ways these things and takes a more balanced view and federal govt has been on the low end so far with these dates so this will now give states the cover to extend these lockdowns into May whether needed or not.

    People in many states are in lockdown in counties with zero or very few cases. One size does not fit all.

    Some social distancing and widespread usage of masks needs to be the policy in many if not most areas.

    Because people are going to revolt against this eventually if their view outside their window doesn’t match the doomsday expert predictions.

  106. Griffin:

    I agree – I’m not sure why it’s still one size fits all. Of course, they can revise that before the end of April if they like. One reason they may want it to be uniform, though, might be to keep more city people from invading the places with the more lenient rules.

  107. “Keep in mind, a lot of these same people are responsible (or are good friends with the people) who are directly tasked to fight this pandemic, yet are actively rooting for the virus.”

    This is a ghastly anecdote yet it is exactly what I expect from the left.

    Leftists man (and woman, and alphabet, etc) the vast bureaucracy the American people have been paying for decades to stand ready to deal with such problems as a global pandemic. Yet for some reason- what could it be?- they have been amazingly indolent when it has finally appeared.

    I was dreading this event weeks ago- I recall a youtube video from January warning that China didn’t have it under control, which helped inspire me to warn people at work to stock up well before TP disappeared- yet the CDC doesn’t seem to have noticed any trouble at all.

    If I can see trouble coming down the pike, the CDC absolutely should have- and well before I did.

    Yet, nope, didn’t happen.

    You have explained why. If the people- that is, the expensive bureaucrats- directly tasked with fighting this virus are actively rooting for it- well, that pretty much explains why the US government wasted the weeks of warning it had, doing essentially nothing.

    They wanted a high death toll, to fight the demon Trump, figuring they could pin their inaction upon him.

  108. The information is very confusing. Wear a mask, dont wear a mask. Which is it? I’ve seen articles making different claims.

  109. Paolo.
    Off topic, but you referred to American patriotism and beautiful anthem.
    Here’s Jackie Evancho singing “Danny Boy”, the ancient Irish lament. And see the video part of it. Most affecting to me are the comments. And if you can manage this, search youtube for “Arlington” by Trace Adkins. There are several entries. See the comments.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSSMl8uJ11Q

  111. MBunge – your not very bright… but you have the leftist i pretend im smart thing down to a T…

    if what’s happening in New York were happening all across the country, instead of 123,000 cases and 2,000 deaths we’d currently have 990,000 cases and 13,000 deaths.

    And if unicorns farted 20s it would be wonderful too… and if blah blah blah..

    first of all… the rest of the country is no where near as packed as ny.. the rest of the country does not commute by rail in which people are packed like sardines till the doors cant close… NY has 27,000 people per square mile… that’s a lot more than Los Angeles which is 6,999 per square mile.. the tri state area of ny has 23 million people… Thats 7% of the united states population..

    so your point is completely ridiculous…
    but you do try to sound smart saying it.
    even with your excuse of a 2nd paragraph that tries to make unreasonable stupid sound smart by adding a rider to it. “nuts to buts?”

    let me point out that the flu has killed 35,000 in the US this year according to the CDC… Covid this year has killed 2,493 in the US… flu killed 14 times the number of people so far.. ny has 776 deaths…

    in the 1990s nyc averaged 2000 murders a year…
    There were 1,444 overdose deaths in 2018 and 1,482 in 2017

    neither of those things were enough to shut things down and cost a few trillion
    in fact… So far the deaths vs the cost of the new bailout bill is about 962,695,547 PER DEATH
    and the elderly who are going to survive but have no medical care, and eat cat food will be legendary again…

  112. From what I’ve read I’m convinced wearing a mask seems to help, but they can’t recommend it because there aren’t enough masks. So for now, I’m wearing my house

  113. Thanks for the Danny Boy video, Richard. So touching and a reminder of the grief that is stalking our land. 2,439 dead is a statistic, but it’s also a price paid by loving families. If it becomes 100.000 or more, that’s a monstrous price to pay. Takes a nation of stout-hearted people to bear it.

  114. ‘The US government didn’t do “nothing” during those weeks.”

    I stand by my assertion. I note santan specifically referenced people tasked with fighting the virus but who root for it.

    I find this tediously familiar. That is, we have an unelected, permanent bureaucracy that responds to any crisis with brazen indifference, secure in the knowledge that the leftist-controlled media will provide cover for their incompetence and malice, and knowing full well the democrat party will struggle endlessly to avoid their facing any accountability lest any Republican gain any credit.

    In this example we have the Trump administration taking appropriate actions- that is, issuing orders to that permanent bureaucracy, but as usual obtaining thin results. I am not mollified to read (for example) that the CDC began shipping test kits to various labs on February 6th, when I know that, effectively, the country has been woefully unable to test for this illness since it appeared.

    Why not, exactly? We give the CDC vast sums, but it seems to accomplish nothing except building them a very nice HQ and funding the leftist gun control agenda. I note that the US stockpile of N95 masks was depleted in 2009 during that pandemic and never restored. Again, why not?

    I’d ask what do these people do at work, but I’m pretty sure I know. They spend their time hating Trump and praying a virus will rack up a huge death toll to spite him.

    I’ve had enough of this. At the minimum, these people need to be relieved of their employment and I expect many of them deserve to be prosecuted.

  115. Fractal Rabbit,
    Sorry to disappoint you but the encounter didn’t rise to the level of jewel kicking.
    It was just the cheeseyist thing. So ACTOR.
    So then my sister is fresh out of college and gets a low level job on the Red October shoot. Early on Alec Baldwin comes in and is introduced to the various personnel. He takes my sister’s hand and looks deep in her eyes and says; ‘But I feel we’ve met before…’ And so forth.
    I kid you not.
    Me: ‘Please tell me you didn’t fall for that.’
    Sister: ‘If I had would I be telling you this?’
    That clown has been a running joke between us for thirty years.
    She did get a very nice gift basket and birthday card from Sean Connery!

  116. Molly,

    Damn. I was so hoping she kicked him. Nice to hear about Connery though, especially since you say she had a low level job. Classy.

  117. Stanford Health Policy’s Eran Bendavid and Jay Bhattacharya write in this Wall Street Journal editorial that current estimates about the COVID-19 fatality rate may be too high by orders of magnitude.

    “Fear of Covid-19 is based on its high estimated case fatality rate — 2% to 4% of people with confirmed Covid-19 have died, according to the World Health Organization and others. So if 100 million Americans ultimately get the disease, 2 million to 4 million could die. We believe that estimate is deeply flawed. The true fatality rate is the portion of those infected who die, not the deaths from identified positive cases.”
    [snip]
    “The latter rate is misleading because of selection bias in testing. The degree of bias is uncertain because available data are limited. But it could make the difference between an epidemic that kills 20,000 and one that kills 2 million. If the number of actual infections is much larger than the number of cases—orders of magnitude larger—then the true fatality rate is much lower as well. That’s not only plausible but likely based on what we know so far.”

    I would like you to notice something i have noticed in the verbiage on the subject
    “it could make the difference between an epidemic that kills 20,000 and one that kills 2 million”

    the way things are said, the estimates make reality not reality makes the numbers
    THIS is why people are more likely to panic (besides just the numbers)
    its the same reason they believe global warming
    there has been a kind of transferrance to the concept that estimates are real, and making them is magical and what they are or what they say, makes reality

    regardless of these estimates, or guesses (in fancy terms), they change nothing.
    IF you read carefully, the shelter in place is not going to stop people from getting Covid, its just going to slow the progress down, which is true. Almost no simulation other than jackboot grabbing the sick and stuffing them in a warehouse leaves the population untouched!!!!!!!!!

    like the mask of the red death, the disease can not be avoided, only delayed. in our society that even delaying it is questionable, given that we go out to stores with our bags covered in germs, or we all assemble crowded when panicked to grab supplies, or still go to work, or drive behind cars of the sick (air drafting), or even exchange money at a register seconds after another pays…

    there is no way to stop disease in this kind of society

    but regardless of whatever these fear mongers say, the numbers will be what they are
    they do not know what they are, but they speak or phrase as if what they say is a magic spell that makes reality… and if enough people pray by siding or beliving with the right one, then that is the reality we get.

    scary

  119. “regardless of whatever these fear mongers say, the numbers will be what they are
    they do not know what they are, but they speak or phrase as if what they say is a magic spell that makes reality… and if enough people pray by siding or beliving with the right one, then that is the reality we get.” Art

    Here are 2 things I wonder about. My son asked me why we aren’t seeing a number of the homeless (who are not only not subject to this order but conduct their lives in such a way that they would be incredibly vulnerable) dead or in extreme physical distress as a result of the pernicious virus. But you can get in your car and there they are, encamping and walking around as usual. The other one is Mexico. Shouldn’t their numbers be worse than ours, not having enacted any orders and living life in normal fashion? I thought maybe the weather, but I checked Tijuana and it is the same as here in L.A.

  120. Artfldgr:

    You write, “there has been a kind of transference to the concept that estimates are real, and making them is magical and what they are or what they say, makes reality.” Well put! I have thinking something of the sort and may write a post about that. It ties into this old post about imagology vs. reality.

  121. neo,

    That is interesting/odd about you and your ex changing independently, around the same time. As I think about it, I guess it does make a little sense, as you must have had much in common.

    I believe I am in the smallest percentage of married couples who voted in the last election; a wife who voted for Trump and a husband who did not.

    My assumption is the largest cohort are marrieds who voted for the same candidate. The second largest cohort, although quite a bit behind, would be wives who voted Hillary, husbands who voted Trump.

    I remember being surprised when my wife and I moved into our first apartment after marrying and I discovered an old newspaper in her belongings from the day Reagan won his second term. Neither one of us had discussed politics with one another prior. To this day I don’t know who she voted for in many of the subsequent Presidential elections.

  122. Xennady:

    I agree that the CDC and regulations were a huge problem. I hadn’t realized that’s what you were referring to.

    However, I don’t think santan works at the CDC. They wouldn’t need to update with the Hopkins website. I think santan is describing some academic setting or hospital or think tank or something of that nature.

  123. Rufus T. Firefly:

    At the time of our political change, my husband and I were separated and still working on the marriage, so we were in a lot of communication. So the change wasn’t 100% independent.

    We always did have a lot in common in terms of politics and lots of other things. Disagreement on politics was definitely not a factor in our divorce.

  124. Neo,

    Thank you, but I must admit that when I failed to make clear that my plaints were against the CDC and the endless .gov regulations that was on me.

    I strive to be a better communicator. I learn when people call me out on my failures, so again, thank you.

    About santan’s comment, I find your evaluation not unlikely. I should also note that in my personal interactions with government bureaucrats I’ve been pleasantly surprised. They’ve pretty much always been competent, knowledgeable, and polite.

    What I’ve heard and read about the upper ranks- that’s a different story. As I said, santan’s anecdote strikes me as all too typical of the people who actually run the US government, alas.

  125. This early comment is great:
    Right now mine is; ‘Thank God Trump cut off travel from China back in January, imagine how much worse it would be if he hadn’t. ’

    Slightly new advice – try saying this first, BEFORE they have a chance.
    Saving the second part depending on their response:
    And he got called ‘racist’ for it! There’s just no pleasing some people.

    An alternative, “We don’t have to talk about Trump at all, if you don’t want to.”

    Perhaps also “you know, there was something called Bush Derangement Syndrome about those who hated Pres. Bush. Today they call it Trump Derangement Syndrome, for folk who hate Trump. I wonder who these folk will hate next? Pence?”

    A mild first strike might be better than a merely factual reply to their first strike.

    But I came here to mention that Althouse recently had a similar note, at the end of her post on Hippos now an issue in Columbia. (Brought by Escobar and now doing well, are they invasive or introduced? Enviros don’t agree on the PC response. Oh no! what is really PC??) She also read the WaPo comments:
    The comments over there are all over the place — some in the childish “I love hippos” category, some saying what about the poor people who live there, and others dragging Trump into it (as if life is a matter of: First person to make a Trump wisecrack wins).

    Maybe first person to make a Trump remark wins?
    It might be worth a try.

    Another blogger, Tyler Cowen of Marginal Revolution, throws out “Trump is incompetent” blurts, too.
    They’re annoying.
    OrangeManBad.

    Annoying OrangeManBad.

    When my 14 yo son was 8, he liked this kind of video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7QE62FDn08

  126. That the single biggest danger to the nation is the schlerotic, bloated, smug top-echelon of our bureaucracies* is now as clear as that something in China started the virus (and the CCP –perhaps deliberately**– allowed it to spread and continues to lie about everything, including whatever “and” and “the” are in Chinese).
    John Stossel wrote this post last week, and I see a story almost every day about some additional turf-protecting boondoggle at the FDA or another agency.
    Their attitude seems to be “get well on our terms or just go ahead and die, peon.”

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/the-red-tape-pandemic/

    * daily dose of dummheit, this time actually the HHS, but the FDA has plenty of their own.
    BTW – big surprise – the real culprit was Obamacare & its tax on medical devices.

    https://libertyunyielding.com/2020/03/30/nyt-story-recounts-the-heartbreak-of-developing-portable-ventilators-for-the-national-stockpile/

    **Would China really do this? Was Mao a Communist?
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1244600464131477505.html

    China decided it wasn’t going to be the only country in the world that took a multi-trillion dollar hit from this virus. Everything it did after the outbreak grew out of control in Wuhan was designed to make sure it spread to other nations, especially in the West.

    RTWT

    *** Third place goes to stupid regulations in states. I’m not even going to link anything about NYC and their esteemed governor’s failure to buy ventilators when he could.

    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/03/burn-down-the-regulatory-house.php

  127. Word of the Day – when biology meets politics:

    Definition of sclerosis (schlerotic)
    1: pathological hardening of tissue especially from overgrowth of fibrous tissue or increase in interstitial tissue
    also : a disease characterized by sclerosis
    2: an inability or reluctance to adapt or compromise
    political sclerosis

  128. Neo, perhaps I am wrong but I think this post is not so much about Trump’s response/actions in regard to the virus but your relationships with family and friends.

    I am a proud and open Trump supporter (from the day of the escalator ride) and everyone who knows me knows that. If some relative or friend of mine offers up a random dig at Trump, knowing that I am a supporter, I see it as uncalled for and rude.

    The key to happiness in life is this: disassociate from these people. My divorce 14 years ago was a clarifying period in my life. I went from having dozens and dozens of friends to only a handful, my second wife is my best friend. I consciously disassociated from many negative hateful people, family and friends alike. I have been a happy person ever since – not saying you are not happy.

    I was not an Obama supporter in any way shape or form, but he was my President, however I never wished harm upon him. My college age daughter asked me recently how I could be a Republican? I told her “Honey, I got to much intellectual integrity and not enough hate in my heart to be anywhere else”

    Peace

  129. Compare and contrast –
    Spain:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/26/spain-coronavirus-response-analysis
    NYC:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/the-timeline-of-how-bill-de-blasio-prepared-new-york-city-for-the-coronavirus/

    And de Blasio’s somewhat curious, heh, response:
    https://nypost.com/2020/03/29/de-blasio-tries-to-deflect-blame-for-rapid-spread-of-coronavirus-in-nyc/
    Key graf:
    ‘“Jake, we should not be focusing, in my view, on anything looking back,” [the mayor] insisted, saying he was “just working with the information” at the moment and trying to avoid panic.’

    File under: HOW DARE YOU even think about blaming anybody else but Trump

  130. Donald B:

    It may be the key to happiness for you, but that is due to your own particular psychological makeup and social situation.

    For me (and I would wager for the majority of people), it would be extremely tragic. Far from any road to happiness, it would mean total social and emotional isolation from nearly everyone who means anything to me on this earth.

    These people are neither negative nor hateful, by the way. They are negative and hateful about Trump. They don’t go on and on about it, either. It’s random remarks here and there.

  132. And another link for the daily doozie from the box-checkers:
    https://pjmedia.com/trending/unreal-fda-sits-on-critical-mask-sanitizing-technology-leaving-the-job-up-to-grandmas-with-sewing-machines/

    Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost has had enough of the FDA’s dithering over approval of an innovative process that could get millions of N95 masks to hospitals and other healthcare facilities, where they are in critically short supply as the Chinese coronavirus continues to stretch their resources. “If this isn’t cleared up by morning, I’m ready to sue the FDA,” Yost wrote on his Facebook page on Sunday afternoon.

    What’s the problem? Yost says the FDA is limiting the number of masks that an Ohio Company, Battelle Memorial Institute, can sterilize for reuse. The company has pioneered a technology that uses hydrogen peroxide vapor to make N95 masks safe for reuse and wants to ramp up production at their facility so they can send the masks where needed, but the FDA essentially shrugged and seemed to say, ‘what’s the big hurry?’

    “The Food and Drug Administration — after dithering all week — finally gave Battelle approval to sterilize a measly 10,000 masks a day,” Yost said. “They could be doing 160,000 per day.”

    Trump made them cut the red tape and get going — by Tweeting “gentle reminders” and not by issuing direct orders. Kind of a crazy system for a ruthless dictator, but since the media goes from criticizing perfectly normal use of the presidential power to demanding he channel Mussolini to complaining when he actually asks people & institutions to do their jobs — it’s hard to know what an American dictator would even look like (China, we know about).

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/03/29/coronavirus-fda-eases-restrictions-mask-sterilization-technology/2936670001/

    The Battelle process uses “vapor phase hydrogen peroxide” to sanitize the N95 masks, allowing them to be reused up to 20 times, the company said in a statement.

    The FDA has “only approved a fraction of what we can do,” DeWine said during the news conference.

    In a written statement, DeWine accused the FDA of not having the backs of health workers in a time of national peril.
    …
    Despite having to fight administration officials to fully implement a home-grown fix to supply problems, DeWine denied that he and other state officials are being left to manage the coronavirus crisis in the absence of federal leadership.

    “It’s just the opposite,” he said. “Every time I’ve called the president, every time I’ve called the vice president, every time I’ve called the White House with a specific ask, they’ve gotten on it.”

    The only thing I want to hear from President Trump when the worst of this is over is from a sound-truck in DC playing “You’re fired!” on an infinite loop.

  133. Fourth on the list — but probably closer to second place for effort — are the Democrats and media.

    https://ewerickson.substack.com/p/that-thing-we-arent-supposed-to-say

    My friend Dan McLaughlin makes a great point.

    Dan McLaughlin @baseballcrank
    Congrats to everyone who pounded the table the past four years for “good people should refuse to work for the Trump Administration.”
    Tom Nichols @RadioFreeTom

    It’s almost like having expertise in top government jobs is an important thing. | Job Vacancies and Inexperience Mar Federal Response to Coronavirus https://t.co/q8qoASTjey
    March 26th 2020

    137 Retweets670 Likes

    Since the beginning of the Trump Administration, progressives have argued that all credible people should abandon Trump and leave him to his own devices. If you will recall, there was an active movement to shame people who worked for the President, threaten careers of those who had worked for him, and otherwise build pressure to ensure no one would work for him.

    Thank God they failed. Can you imagine this situation with Drs. Fauci or Birx? Can you imagine a situation where Admiral Brett Giroir, a global expert in pandemic response and now in charge of COVID-19 testing, took a pass on working in this administration?

    That is what progressives and some in the news media wanted. Thank God they were not successful.

    Check out that post for a graph of COVID cases by the most affected states instead of lumping them all together for “USA cases” – and also some other interesting information.

  135. Whether ’tis healthier to disengage from folks one disagrees with, or not.

    Interesting topic.

    My father is more of a natural disengager, my mother is not. My wife’s family are disengagers, I am not. I find it fairly easy to continue strong social bonds with people regardless of whether we agree or disagree on most things. The only two things I can think of that are absolutes for me are hurting children or women. I think I can tolerate almost any other trait.

    I think due to her upbringing more than her innate personality, my wife’s first reaction is to disassociate if someone disagrees with her strongly, or vice versa. When they are familial, or relationships we share, I have mostly refused to let this happen and I think, with the benefit of hindsight, she would say she is grateful I insisted that we not sever ties with others.

    I don’t find it too difficult to care about people, even when they think or say foolish things. I sincerely hope they improve, and learn the truth. I know they will be happier if they do, and I want people to be happy. I especially do not find it difficult if there is no obvious, correct answer, but they simply hold the opposite opinion to mine. And, although this may sound a bit egotistical, I also hope that sometimes I may be serving as an example, and helping someone realize there are different ideas, or a better way.

  136. AesopFan,

    Very anecdotal, but I just spoke with a friend in San Diego and he believes climate has a lot to do with it, at least from what he’s seeing in California. Although San Diego is under the same orders as the rest of the state things, to him, don’t seem anywhere close to what he sees on his TV from up north.

  137. Rufus T. Firefly:

    I don’t quite get your San Diego friend’s point. The temperature in San Diego isn’t all that different from that of LA or the Bay area right now. San Diego has been in the 60s, LA in 60s and 70s, and the Bay area a bit cooler but not significantly so – in the high 50s to low-to-mid 60s, depending on the place.

  138. Rufus T. Firefly:

    If I disengaged with people who disagreed with me I’d wind up being a hermit in a cave.

  139. Neo, Thank you for responding, I would love to have a cup of coffee or a martini, (haha) with you. If someone hates Trump, or Obama, or Clinton (Hillary or Bill) then they are not right.

    I am not a shutin or isolationist, i have a good career and family life, but I got no time for haters. All i am saying is that in my past 45 years of political awareness, all the people I disassociated with were leftist/dems. Its as simple as tuning out CNN

  140. “If I disengaged with people who disagreed with me I’d wind up being a hermit in a cave.”

    My wife’s father eventually ended up like that. (Except he always commented that I was someone who could always have long conversations with.)

  141. “I don’t quite get your San Diego friend’s point.”

    That’s the trouble with the world, and humans, it’s hard to compare apples to apples. L.A. is a very different city from San Diego in more ways than climate. Houston also has a fair amount of cases, as do New Orleans and Miami.

    It almost certainly is a combination of population density, age of population and, maybe, local weather. I read one analysis on accuweather.com where a meteorologist tried to form a conclusion based on local weather while adjusting for population density and there was some indication weather was a factor, but he did his analysis about 3 weeks ago, when there was not as large a data sample.

  142. It may have been difficult to get people to adhere to this, without first scaring the bejeezus out of the entire country with the current methods; but we almost certainly could have had different approaches for different areas.

    1. Everyone over 70, or with compromised immune systems; shelter in place.
    2. People in densely populated cities; shelter in place.
    3. People in moderately populous areas with adequate health systems (medical staff, hospital beds) who do not fit the first criteria, go about your business, but wash your hands and don’t touch your face.
    4. More rural areas adjust based on population and medical access.

  143. Hello sdferr

    sorry for this late answer, I’ve been busy with my job.

    “Little cup” is the right translation: “coppino” refers to that shape simulated by the hands.

    In Italian, “coppa” means cup, and “-ino/-ina” are suffixes (male/feminine) used to suggest smallness.

    In this case the suffix is the male version – even if coppa” is a feminine name – because southern people use dialectal variations from canonical Italian (which is the one proper to Tuscany).

    Ciao

  145. Richard

    thanks so much for your suggestions, I watched the video and I’ll read the comments later.

    This reminds me when I visited a WWII military cemetery in southern France, in 2014.
    It was covered with hundreds of white crosses, all over a big green hill, each of them in place of a young American boy; almost all of them were 18 years old.

    I have four male sons and I served in the Alpine corp, I was overwhelmed – I think I can understand what you feel for that song.

  146. I also thought that was a very touching video that Richard posted. I have attended several funerals for veterans, which are always handled so respectfully.

    Paolo – we raised five sons, and I have always been very thankful that they did not have to experience war in the way that our grandfathers, fathers, and uncles did. I very much respect the men and women who are choosing to serve in today’s wars (and their families), in which the conditions are no less excruciating for being mostly limited to such a small segment of our population.

    The soldiers in World War II (and all of the earlier eras) were often so very young; I saw this photograph online recently, and noticed the one in the center of the frame – he looks barely into his teens.
    https://imgur.com/gallery/QZeIQTG#e9Erdby

    Your mention of serving in the (Italian?) Alpine Corps strikes a chord for me.

    The US built some training areas for the 10th Mountain Division Ski Corps in the mountains above Denver, and the huts they used are now open to the public.
    Every January or February, our church takes a group of youth to snowshoe in, sleep overnight (wood stoves and bunk beds), and snowshoe back down in the morning.
    They love it! It used to be just the boys, but the girls also made expeditions in the most recent couple of years because there was one young woman particularly interested.
    She talked her family and another one into a trip to Everest (just a low camp, not a summitting) last summer.

    Thanks for your “on the ground” reporting from Italy. I understand some of the language from my years of voice lessons and choir, although not enough to speak or read seriously.
    Nothing improves a singer’s technique as much as singing in Italian!

  147. Re. Meislen’s remarks on Spain and the socialist feminist rage demonstrations.

    Maybe a lawsuit would be counterproductive. LOL

    So, the servants of Baal gathered together. Thronging the streets and alleyways, in frenzied dancing they sniffed one another’s bodies and shrieked in each other’s faces, cursing all those who resisted the lordship of the pansexual god of the termite kingdom. “Give us your sons and daughters!”, they cried. “We would know them, and train them to serve us and our desires!”

    Well, if Covid19 were more virulent and fast acting, we might actually have seen something unfold which did look to be of Biblical proportions.

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