On being late: part 2
Part one was certainly a comment-generator.
No, I’m not going to write another long post on the subject of being late. At least, not today. And I’m not sure there’s anything still left to say about the subject after this weekend’s lengthy back-and-forth.
However, completely by chance, yesterday I came across this T-shirt:
There are many variations on the theme on Amazon and elsewhere: color, style, script, men’s, woman’s, you name it.
It got me wondering: is this a case of the phenomenon some people were talking about in the earlier thread when they claimed that those who are habitually late seem to think it’s cute? I had no doubt there are some people like that, but the existence of all these T-shirts has made me think there are more of them than I’d originally thought.
Or – is it that the people wearing the T-shirts aren’t bragging, but rather issuing a warning to others? Or even apologizing in advance (although the absence of an “I’m sorry” would argue against that)?
Or – and this is my own leading theory at the moment – are the majority of these shirts purchased as gifts by exasperated friends, lovers, and relatives of the habitually late?
I have only one black T-shirt: “The Top 10 reasons I procrastinate.”
Nothing else on the T-shirt.
My guess is that the “Probably Late for Something” T-shirts are gifts from the exasperated.
My experience with people in the music scene was that they tended to show up about half an hour late. Drug scene individuals — about the same. Runway models in New York were almost always on time. Maybe because they were used to dealing with photographers and stylists and suchlike who could find somebody else. In any case, it was nice.
Yeah, what an exciting life I had there for a while. I didn’t appreciate it, or care much, when I was there. But that’s how life is. If I’d wanted to know these people, I wouldn’t have known them. I had to be truly indifferent to fit in.
Here is an amazing headline:
Being On Time Is ‘White Supremacy’
The social justice warrior’s work in ferreting out injustices, is never done.
_____
I just watched one of my old Hitchcock faves “Spellbound.” There’s an extended scene where Gregory Peck wanders around a house in a daze late at night carrying a straight razor. It is a very slow and potentially boring scene, except that the music score really carries the scene and creates the tension and excitement.
Score by Miklos Rosza.
Cool
I see that I am extremely late to the Part One thread on this topic; i.e., I just didn’t check in with Neo that day.
I’m usually prompt in keeping appointments; probably has something to do with the Teutonic need for order that runs in my family. My one unforgettable experience with lateness intended to create a dramatic entrance was my college graduation. The Commencement speaker was Ted Kennedy, who held up the proceedings a full half hour and showed up noticeably tipsy under his Harvard cap and gown. It was awkward and embarrassing for everyone except Himself, of course.
I meant to comment sooner, but I was late to these posts (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk).
TommyJay – I went to your link to see what the Babylon Bee was up to today, aaaaannnd it wasn’t the Bee.
Sad. Especially this part.
SMH.
You can be a victim, or you can prosper in the standard US economic and social system, but probably not both at the same time.
TommyJay,
Yes, Spellbound is great in its way. No distracting action nor riveting plot to interfere with the beautiful music. Hitchcock enjoyed such interludes now and then. Think of Janet Leigh’s face while she drives through the rainy night! The strings as they build up are a little melodramatic, but sobeit. More melodrama – this time in the bathroom – was to come!
She gets too hungry for dinner at eight
She likes the theatre and never comes late
She never bothers with people she’d hate
That’s why the lady is a tramp
The appeal of wearing a tee shirt emblazoned with one’s character flaw is that it’s kind of funny to insult yourself out loud —with what everyone is thinking privately.
Self effacing humor may also be the last preserve in the politically correct-o-sphere.. for now. Laugh while you can.
Being timely, punctual, organized … or not … certainly does have (interesting!) ‘Freudian’ dimensions. But this truth is almost irrelevant, comparatively.
What actually matters, is that the ability to be timely, is very recent Technology. Only in the last couple centuries have we been able to track time accurately.
When us seasoned-citizens were children, we knew old folks & family-situations, in which Heirloom pocket watches featured in breathless lore. There was a period, not at all long ago in historic terms, when having a portable watch & knowing the Time, at all times, was quite amazing & prestigious.
Folks had known large stationary clocks, on prestigious buildings, for awhile before, but again in the fullness of it, only a brief while.
… Thus, really & truly, knowing the time, and planning & executing in accordance with it, is something quite new & Experimental, for humans and our Culture.
And how successful these innovations are clearly varies, with both persons & with sub-cultures.
… For example, in the military being able to use time-telling was a demarcation as clear & harsh as that between steel blades & gunpowder. Without command & skilled application of the new tech, you die.
On reflection, the funny sentiment on that tee shirt might also be modern ‘woke’ virtue signaling.
Seems, according to leftwing activists, punctuality is a tool of white supremacy. Along with a growing list, including being nice, the ok hand gesture, math, school grades, language, competition, discipline, sobriety, the entire criminal justice system, America and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
Makes a person want to rebel and arrive on time:-)
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I’m always 15-20 minutes early for any meeting/appointment. That way, I can walk into it with a few minutes to spare. If I’m meeting with you (rather than texting or emailing) I consider you important and your time as important as mine.
The upside is that I’m always on time. “Punctual” is a very big compliment in my mind. And if you’re a few minutes late, it’s no big deal, really.
The downside is that I start getting pretty annoyed at the late person around the ten minute mark. By that time, I’ve already been there for quite some time.
I know- it’s partially on me and partially on them. But if you are 20 minutes late and I’m 15 minutes early, you can see how that would be a problem. Doctors’ offices are a nightmare.
For all of you who are habitually late- Imagine a world in which you are early. And so is everyone else. By extension- you get all your stuff done early. Then you have all the time you need to fit in those tasks you needed to get done before, but you were also on time for everything.
IME, people who are habitually late do indeed try to pass off this behavior as cute, or at least to dismiss it as no big deal. “Oh, it’s just flaky me, tee hee, you know how I am.” They absolutely do not take it seriously, or as an inconvenience to others; if they did, they’d change their behavior.
Don’t be an asshole. Show up by the appointed time.
Leigh Harris:
I wonder whether you’ve read the comments on the previous thread, the one I linked to in the post. The people commenting there who are habitually late certainly say nothing of the sort. In fact, they don’t think it’s cute at all, and are extremely apologetic, and discuss at great length the reasons they think that for them it’s hard to change.
If you know a different type of late person, that’s interesting, but it’s certainly not universal. I know a number of people who are habitually late and none of them even remotely fit your description, although I have virtually no doubt that such people exist. I wonder why you seem to know so many.
As for your comment “don’t be an asshole – show up at the appointed time,” I’d suggest that you stop calling people names, and if you don’t like the behavior of your friends who are habitually late then just stop making social appointments to see them.
DK:
Yes, it is partly on you, if you get to a social engagement that far ahead of time. Of course you’ll have to wait, even if the other person is on time, and the extra wait for a latecomer is going to increase your impatience.
But 20 minutes late is starting to be quite a lot, even in my book. If someone was habitually 20 minutes late I think it would begin to annoy even me. But nowhere near as much as it would annoy you – unless it was some sort of time pressure situation for me, which it usually is not.
I’ve had to wait as much as an hour or even longer in a doctor’s office. Again, for me it depends on the doctor. If it’s someone who takes a lot of time listening to each person, and I really like the doctor, I actually don’t mind (again, remember that my schedule is usually quite flexible, so it’s not as though I have to be back at the office at a certain time for work). Doctor’s offices are frustrating though. If one is early for the appointment, the doc is often late. If one is late for an appointment, the doc is often on time.
The “white supremacy” stuff is obviously malarkey, but there is no question there are vast differences in this topic culturally. I continue to be amused by those who insist there is a correct answer here, and it is, coincidentally, their answer. Show up to every party in Italy or Brazil at the exact time of the invite and people will begin “looking down their noses at you.” Show up 30 minutes late to parties in Germany, Austria or Switzerland and the majority of the Augen will soon be looking down the majority of the Nasen.
And people keep tracking this back to professional situations. The trait I have (which sounds very similar to what Neo described in herself) has nothing to do with professionalism, or a lack of seriousness or selfishness. People who work with me or know me outside of work frequently elect or nominate me to head up projects and social gatherings (I’m really good at things when others are counting on me, it’s when it’s just me counting on myself that I slide, and almost always because I am trying to do too much); and from what I know of her from her writings, I’m sure Neo’s friends would have complete confidence in her ability to tackle any complex event involving multiple, moving parts effectively.
I have also always found the majority of “etiquette” rules to be nonsense. I am 56 years old and I still don’t know which fork goes inside of the other, or what side of the plate any utensils belong on. It’s completely arbitrary and I refuse to commit one iota of my gray matter to memorizing such absurdity. Showing up for a commercial flight with 100 passengers and a 4 person crew is not arbitrary. Attending a party is. Meeting friends for a drink is. The book, “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman” gives a great perspective on this by Nobel Prize winning Physicist, Dr. Richard Feynman. Few humans have ever understood time as thoroughly as he. I think Feynman is exactly right about the pompousness of etiquette rules and their real purpose, to help folks feel superior to others. “Oh, look at that poor thing, she’s not aware that shorter hemlines are no longer the fashion…”
I don’t want to be judgmental, but to the casual observer some of your comments make me suspicious that a few of you are wound rather tight, and are missing out on a lot. 20 minutes early for everything adds up to a lot of wasted time. As I wrote earlier, my wife is German. Almost any time we have people to our house (which is never in much disarray) she is miserable in the day and hours leading up to the allotted time, obsessing about everything looking just right. We had about 18 people for Thanksgiving and she literally set the table at least two weeks in advance. I told her folks might not like seeing dust or cat hair on their plate, but she was more worried about making sure everything was in proper place. She typically tries to fill the water glasses hours before a meal. When I point out the ice will be melted she doesn’t care. My thought is, folks would likely rather have ice cold water, even if we have to pause the start of a meal for 2 minutes while we fill glasses, than drink tepid water.
I know that when I’m visiting with friends my hope is we have a great time and good conversation, maybe even learn something about one another. That’s hard to do if everyone isn’t relaxed. Folks who are obsessed with watching the second hand on a clock are unlikely to be relaxed enough to truly enjoy social occasions and get the most out of them. But, to each his or her own.
I will also add (and I don’t want to presume I also speak for Neo’s feelings, although her description sounded awfully familiar to me), a big part of why this drives me crazy in myself is because I hold myself to a really difficult standard. It really bothers me if I inconvenience someone, or upset someone. I don’t like negative attention. I don’t like people noticing me in a room. But, I also do not want to accomplish less in a day than I can. I want to make maximal use of the 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds I have every day.
“I have 30 minutes before my car is due at the repair shop and it’s only a 5 minute drive. I can use that 25 minutes to write and send an email to my daughter who is struggling with one of her subjects at University.” And then traffic is heavier than usual and the repair shop ends up being a 10 minute drive that morning.
“The Post Office closes in 45 minutes and it’s 10 minutes away. I also want to buy an additional present for my mother and that wine store is near the Post Office. I can stop there on the way.” And then the customer in front of me in the cashier line has poorly planned his selections and gets into a debate with the cashier over the cost and ends up taking extra time choosing which item to remove from his order.
Is it better to attempt 10 things every day and only accomplish 8, or attempt 4 and accomplish 4? I have a lot of trouble being someone who only accomplishes 4 things.
Rufus:
It does sound familiar.
For me, it also has to do with how I feel when someone is a little bit late, even always a little bit late.
Simply put, I just don’t care. I know there are people who care and who care deeply about even a few minutes. Many of them seem to comment here! But perhaps I just don’t know a lot of these people, or don’t live in a culture where most people feel that way. Most people I know are sometimes late for a lunch date and don’t think that much of it. Now granted, we’re not high-powered executives nor are we in the armed forces. So we can afford to be looser about it.
As I said, I know one person who is quite rigid about it, and lateness drives her nuts (although not 5 minutes for a lunch date). For her, and particularly when I am picking her up to go somewhere, I try my hardest to be on time or even a couple of minutes early. Sometimes I succeed but sometimes I fail. But she’s okay with it. She appreciates the effort and the fact that I sometimes succeed and am never significantly late. She also tells people she values punctuality, perhaps because she knows that she is somewhat of an outlier (here) to care so very much, and also to keep people from being very late when they’re dealing with her.
Other than that, many of the people I know are sometimes late themselves. As I said, it just doesn’t seem to be an issue. I wonder whether people who care very much about punctuality tend to select friends who feel the same? And likewise for people who are looser about time?
As Ted Clayton pointed out (and I discussed in the prior thread), “time” is primarily a societal construct. There were no more accurate distinctions than sunrise, sunset and mid-day for 99.9999999999% of human evolution (and there’s probably a good, 30 minute swing in judging those phenomenon to the unaided observer). Just as salad forks and tie widths are very recent homo sapiens affectations. And, just as fat ties are no more “correct” than skinny ties; being 10 minutes early to an invitation is no more correct than 10 minutes late (there is nothing innately human about either). But some folks need to insist their tie width is the correct, and only proper tie width and another poor slob is wrong and he should be cast out into out into the exterior darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
As Aristotle taught, everything has a purpose and the closer you come to the true nature of a thing the better the good that will be achieved. Is the purpose of meeting friends for dinner a contest to see who has the most accurate watch and knows the proper use of utensils and drink-ware and how wide collars are in Milan? Or is the purpose of meeting friends to commune with loved ones and learn about them and if you can help them and they help you?
Neo, I too don’t mind when folks are late and assume they have a valid reason when they arrive late.
And as a manger of people my yardstick is whether the employees under me meet their commitments effectively. I’d rather employ a single mother who does 12 hours of normal work every 8 hour shift but has to arrive 30 minutes late each day to see her son off to school safely then someone who arrives early and spends 30% of his workday on social media*.
*Unless it is the always excellent, http://www.thenewneo.com.
Perhaps, some of us accept “Time” and others struggle with “Time” – persistently, for reasons we don’t wish to explore. No slights to others intended; our adversary is unseen.
Being late is a violation of your agreement — I don’t like to violate my own agreements. But I do, a little, all too often.
One of the main ways “Western Civilization” has advanced so far, so quickly, is thru better cooperation. This involves making agreements, and commitments, and keeping them. Agree to a time, keep your agreements.
The idea that being on time is part of “white privilege” has some truth — Human Rights – Democracy, including “anti-slavery”, were based on Christian Capitalist civilization, first done by whites. Based a lot on cooperation, with cooperation and coordination enhanced by keeping track of time.
Making agreements.
Keeping agreements. Or at least trying to, with a significant effort.
A few minutes late, a few times, from each party, is ok. Almost always, from the same side, is some kind of rude / time-difference, not good for cooperation.
Tom Grey:
But sometimes the agreement is that it’s okay to be five or ten minutes late, on either side, and that even if one person is usually the offender it is perfectly okay. Not all people have the same agreement about time and flexibility around time. And certainly not the same agreement with everyone about it.
Neo,
Haven’t had the time to read all the comments on this and the other thread but aren’t you more referring to a situation where it is a ‘let’s me around 6’ kind of agreement which seems to me ambiguous enough that 5,10 minutes late are no biggie.
But if it’s a case that the appointment, meeting etc just says ‘6’ then that is more precise.
While I’m pathologically on time I’m not as offended as many others on this issue.
Griffin:
Yes, appointments are different (also depending on the situation). I’m mostly talking here about looser social engagements, with “around” being part of it. Also, (and it’s interesting that most people have ignored this) being late for things that are not social and don’t involve another person, such as getting to the post office at 5:00 instead of 4:55 and finding the door locked.
This has caused me to think more about folks I socialize with, to determine if lateness does annoy me. The best example is a couple my wife and I see quite a bit who are always late. I’ve noticed my wife and I have simply just adjusted. We know they will be 20 – 30 minutes late, so we adjust to that schedule.
She is a Nurse. He is an M.D. Super responsible people. Great human beings and a joy to be around.
One thing my wife and I do find annoying; my folks live out of town and when invited always arrive quite a bit early, sometimes by hours, but will never call or text to give us any idea when they will arrive I love seeing my folks, but their habit makes it really hard to plan meals.
If you’re frequently late for social engagements, maybe you’re just running on NDN Time:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/175358979215376247/
Can’t change? Sokay, real friends will just adapt and lie to you about when to show up.
Not everyone will do that for you… and who can blame them? If you can’t show up on time, don’t be surprised when your fat friends stop inviting you to dinner.
Mentius:
NDN = North Dakota Native?
om:
Say the letters N-D-N in order, out loud.
Duh 🙂
DK on January 22, 2020 at 11:46 am said:
…
For all of you who are habitually late- Imagine a world in which you are early. And so is everyone else. By extension- you get all your stuff done early. Then you have all the time you need to fit in those tasks you needed to get done before, but you were also on time for everything.
* * *
I was going to comment yesterday, but I was late…
Good advice, but the impulse to do things before rather than after usually catches me, as it does Rufus & Neo.
However:
Imagine there’s no time clocks
It’s easy if you try
No “gee you’re late” before us
No more just getting by
Imagine all the people living for today.
Imagine there’s no planners
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to plot and scheme for
And no appointments too
Imagine all the people living life in peace.
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one
* * *
We probably won’t ever “be as one” though, because some of us will still be early, late, or on time, even without clocks & planners.
That’s why I carry paper, pens, books or magazines wherever I go.
And I’ve noticed that people with phones never even notice if they or anyone else is early or late, because there is always email, texting, and the internet.