by the end of the week most responsible will be dead…
reason? the people running the cartel should be VERY angry at this
it was in their self interest to avoid things that would fire up the USA and its people to do something… and now, that is the case…
like la cosa nostra, there are rules about involving civilians…
I don’t think women and children are off the table with the cartels. I don’t even think foreigners are off the table, given how many touristas have gone missing. Keep in mind this is the same cartel that defeated elements of the Mexican army. They fielded 400 trigger-pullers in that operation.
As Artfldgr notes, it’s bad to stir up gringos who can bring real military power against you. The Mexican president may have said no thanks, but if El Chapo’s sons achieve room temperature in the next couple of weeks under mysterious circumstances, I won’t shed any tears.
A drone attack on the headquarters and other locations of that cartel would be appropriate. Less risk than a Special Operations Forces or CIA Special Activities Division attack.
“You can’t fight violence with more violence,” [AMLO] said at a news conference.
So then AMLO’s either on the take, a moron, or both.
NSA ought to be burrowing deep into Mexican communications at this point, if they haven’t been already — to be followed by the other thing.
I keep track of cults, so i was surprised to find a Nxivm connection to the cartel killings.
The nine women and children slaughtered in Mexico on Monday were part of a Mormon community with ties to the alleged sex-cult Nxivm.
Death toll climbs in Mexican cartel shootout as more US citizens ID’d
The outpost Mormon community in Mexico is where underlings of Nxivm leader Keith Raniere recruited young women to work as nannies in an upstate New York compound run by the accused cult — suggesting at least in part that the jobs would get the girls away from their home region’s drug violence, according a man hired by Raniere to produce a documentary about the group.
Don’t know what it means, if anything. Nxivm was one of the most bizarre cults around.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXIVM
It’s obvious the entire Mexican government is controlled by the cartels given el presidente’s statement of hugs not bullets.
Ya still think the Wall is a stupid idea?
The cartels are already well-embedded in the USA. We need to 1) Root them out, viciously and violently, shoot them for “resisting arrest”, which they will do violently, or send them home after detaining them for a month on bread and water in the open Nevada desert. Give them some solar energy!
But as events have proven time after time, without a Wall, they simply return.
In Asheville NC the Democratic sheriff just released an illegal Mexican who’d been convicted of sex with an 11 year-old, sentenced to (only) three years but sprung from jail by the law. Said illegal had been previously expelled from the USA 13 times!
Is Obrador’s public rejection of US military aid cheap talk?
Given the apparent relative weakness of his current position, Obrador can’t signal willingness to cooperate with Hombre de Naranja or the same gunmen who freed nino de Chapo might target the largely powerless Mexican president’s political base or even his family.
Let’s wait and see who from the cartel wakes up dead in the next few weeks before we conclude there’s no possibility of increased cooperation between the US and Mexico on stopping narco-terrorism.
One thing I haven’t seen that I expect to see any minute now: progressives blaming The Wall and ipso facto Cheeto Hitler for these murders. They’re leaving money on the table smdh.
Mexico is a lot like the old West in the U.S. Not much law and order. Like every country I’ve ever been in that was a Spanish colony, graft is a way of life and not necessarily frowned upon by the citizens. I’ve interacted with the police in Mexico on several occasions. They accused me of breaking some obscure regulation followed by a demand for dinero to make it right. Grifters.
Mexicans are like most people. Some are hard workers and most are peaceful, but they have their share of bad hombres. And those are the ones who are in the cartels and MS-13. The police don’t want to, or are unable to, go up against them. The Mexican President, AMLO, would be well advised to imitate the Syrian Kurds. Let us put some special operators in country to train and equip his troops. Then go all out Genghis Khan on the cartels. It might take a couple of violent, bloody years, but the problem could be brought under control. It would be a benefit to both the U.S. and Mexico. Not expecting that to happen. AMLO will continue his anti-corruption and outreach programs while the cartels continue to dominate the country.
I used to visit Mexico frequently. I will never set foot in the country again or spend one centavo on Mexican products until the country deals with their cartels.
What Mexico and other former Spanish colonies need is to get rid of the custom of graft and government cronyism that keeps the common folks from getting ahead. Then organized crime wouldn’t seem so attractive. Not holding my breath on that one.
Mexico is what it has always been. Utterly corrupt. It is a pity because so many Mexicans are truly beautiful, kind, and hard working people. And revolution is futile. Zapata was assassinated, Washington died of old age.
J.J. Not much law and order. Like every country I’ve ever been in that was a Spanish colony, graft is a way of life and not necessarily frowned upon by the citizens.
Yup. In my first meeting with our company’s manager in Venezuela, he told me how to write up expense reports to account for bribes paid to traffic cops. Rest assured I found it necessary advice. An Argentine who had worked in Venezuela told me that he preferred the Venezuelan way of bribery. A Venezuelan official- not just traffic cops- will be very upfront about how much you need to pay to facilitate things. In Argentina, he told me, officials will never tell you they require some extra cash to get things done, but without that extra cash, they will often not do their jobs.
I wonder if it is time to treat the Mexican gangs not as a legal issue, but as an issue of war. Think of how President Bush quickly responded to 9/11. Perhaps AMLO should get a talking-to, where he is given the alternative between some nasty things being exposed about his past or giving the US a green light to go after the thugs in Mexico. One problem here is that the gangs are also in the US, where a military versus a legal approach is not so easy to do- as if it is easy in Mexico.
“I wonder if it is time to treat the Mexican gangs not as a legal issue, but as an issue of war. “
Yes.
It will eventually wind up that way whether we treat it as such now, or not.
“So then AMLO’s either on the take, a moron, or both. ”
Absolutely.
I’d give you an “upvote” if I could, but I can’t…so…
Absolutely!
My strong belief is the cartels and their corruption/vicious violence are everywhere in Mexico. In the governments, state and provincial; the military, and the police. There is nowhere safe to turn. Lopez Obrador knows this, is most likely part of it. How else to explain his pablum after these murders?
The internal (non-coastal) highways are the safest N-S routes for vehicles, and they are not all that safe. On any other roads you become coyote bait, with predators disguised in Federales uniforms… or actual Federales.
This has a long history. My brother and two friends were stopped 100 miles from the Rio some 40 years ago, forced to drive into the nighttime desert at gunpoint, and were fortunate enough to be released by the Federales after those took everything they had.
A Wall is the only solution. Forever!
We cannot expect to send in a bunch of Special Forces eradicators with a leftist Mexicano el Presidente.
The cartels will send, if they haven’t already in place, strike groups to slaughter American families and attack small town police departments and other government facilities.
If this is war, it’s not going to be limited in any way and starting small on our side is a losing proposition.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to merely reply with a drone attack, or anything else so small.
When executing a reprisal, it needs to be fearsome and game-changing in ways which are uniformly bad for the cartels, but of an unpredictable degree of severity. A drone attack is something that the cartels themselves can field. Nothing which falls within their own capabilities commands sufficient respect.
This is separate, also, from the issue of blocking illegal immigrants and illegal trafficking (humans, drugs, whatever) from the country. For that, one wants the wall, the soldiers on the border, the observation drones, heavy fines for hiring illegals, strong standards for verifying the immigration status of hirees, personal liability of hiring managers and executives (large fines proportional to income) for violations of those standards: In short, a multilayer solution which addresses both supply and demand. But, again, that’s a separate issue.
As for Mexico’s culture of corruption and graft? That’s the difference between a former BRITISH colony and a former SPANISH one. Not sure quite why it always works out that way, but the correlation does seem pretty reliable.
So Sad about the culture of corruption that is Mexico, and most of Spanish colonies.
Those Spanish colonies were conquered, more than settled, by tough conquistadors. Really tough guys. But, their idea was to conquer land, own a big plantation, and make the locals slave-like serfs do all the work. So the big owner, in a big hacienda, could enjoy life without work. Being the Big Man.
Conquerors looking for loot, and the product of others’ labor, rather than opportunity to settle and make their own way. Most British colonies had more settlers, fewer conquerors — with India a big exception.
India remains known for corruption, as well, tho it might be about to trend towards less corruption.
Trump is very unlikely to do anything major before Nov 2020; certainly not send in troops unless clearly asked by the corrupt Mexican President.
One of my fantasies is that the US cuts of Baja CA from the rest of Mexico, and runs a secession referendum that creates a new state which the US does help to police and clean up the corruption.
As AI becomes more useful, I’m looking forward to more gov’t posts being replaced by robots programmed to be against corruption. Still 5-20 years away for most of them, tho.
US should follow Israeli policy in this case. I am thinking of the Kidon teams they sent to hunt down the Munich Olympics culprits. Providing technical and intel support to the Mexican authorities is presumably already being done.
R.C. The cartels have Hellfire missiles? When I said drone, I should have clarified: Predator drones!
Glad to see that others confirm the way things are in former Spanish colonies. IMO, the reason is that Spain never had the kind of laws that came from the English colonizers. The right to own private property backed by the courts is a major difference. The Spanish tended to aggregate property rights to the elites with a system called encomiendas – property granted to elites by the crown that stayed in the family in perpetuity while keeping the masses as workers on the elites’ properties. They also used a legal code quite different than ours – guilty until proven innocent. A form of law that allows the elites in power to run over anyone that gets in their way.
I spent some time in the Philippines, which was a Spanish colony for 333 years, and became familiar with their customs and views about politics, private property, and the law. The Catholic Church loomed large in their lives. They gave great deference to the church, while leading rather secular and sinful lives. Most Filipinos considered that being a policeman, mayor, or other government official provided those worthies with the right to extort graft from the average citizen. It was a deeply imbedded belief. Even though the Philippines was a U.S. territory for some years (48 years), our system of private property laws and dislike of graft and corruption in politics had not gained many adherents. Communism was much more popular than American capitalism.
My experiences in Mexico mirrored what I saw in the Philippines. I’ve also seen much the same in other Central and South American countries. Graft and corruption in government accepted as normal. Communism is very attractive to an underclass that has no prospect of raising their standard of living. That, IMO, is why that area of the world is always flirting with Communism.
Cop who arrested El Chapo’s son that sparked cartel wars is shot 155 times in brutal car park execution
That these killers are barbarians is without question and I would have no issue if someone exterminated them.
Whether or not we should bomb the cartel is a singular issue worthy of debate. Or maybe we should take some other action because it is necessary for the defense of the United States.
However, has anyone noticed that members of this family are citizens of Mexico? Why does not the government of Mexico do something? Oh. Never mind, they did; they surrendered. Why do we need do anything more? (Hazards of dual citizenship…..which I admit is a concept I despise).
Also, not that this is particularity important, the cynic in me wonders if someone in this family did something to tick off the cartel causing them to visit this outrage. I suspect probably more than not.
About a year ago, I encountered a first-hand experience of the brutality in Mexico. One of our consultants is from Mexico City and has a lot of family there. That particular day, his sister (a real estate attorney) texted him to pray for her as she was going to be meeting a couple at a piece of land for sale and it promised to be a good prospective client. Wrong time, wrong place. She was shot in the head and killed as an innocent by-stander, but I understand unspeakable things were done to the couple who had won a judgment against the local “powers that be”. All meant to be retribution and a warning to others.
Can someone name me any countries/cultures that are intolerant of corruption other than those that were established by Anglo Saxons/Northern Europeans/Protestant Christians? This is not sarcasm, I really want to know. Because I can’t think of any.
Please don’t say Japan. They have their own – very polite – form of corruption.
Have you ever noticed that Manju never comments on threads like these?
by the end of the week most responsible will be dead…
reason? the people running the cartel should be VERY angry at this
it was in their self interest to avoid things that would fire up the USA and its people to do something… and now, that is the case…
like la cosa nostra, there are rules about involving civilians…
I don’t think women and children are off the table with the cartels. I don’t even think foreigners are off the table, given how many touristas have gone missing. Keep in mind this is the same cartel that defeated elements of the Mexican army. They fielded 400 trigger-pullers in that operation.
https://twitter.com/gcaw/status/1191892506012766208
As Artfldgr notes, it’s bad to stir up gringos who can bring real military power against you. The Mexican president may have said no thanks, but if El Chapo’s sons achieve room temperature in the next couple of weeks under mysterious circumstances, I won’t shed any tears.
A drone attack on the headquarters and other locations of that cartel would be appropriate. Less risk than a Special Operations Forces or CIA Special Activities Division attack.
“You can’t fight violence with more violence,” [AMLO] said at a news conference.
So then AMLO’s either on the take, a moron, or both.
NSA ought to be burrowing deep into Mexican communications at this point, if they haven’t been already — to be followed by the other thing.
I keep track of cults, so i was surprised to find a Nxivm connection to the cartel killings.
The nine women and children slaughtered in Mexico on Monday were part of a Mormon community with ties to the alleged sex-cult Nxivm.
Death toll climbs in Mexican cartel shootout as more US citizens ID’d
The outpost Mormon community in Mexico is where underlings of Nxivm leader Keith Raniere recruited young women to work as nannies in an upstate New York compound run by the accused cult — suggesting at least in part that the jobs would get the girls away from their home region’s drug violence, according a man hired by Raniere to produce a documentary about the group.
https://nypost.com/2019/11/05/women-killed-in-mexican-cartel-murders-had-alleged-ties-to-sex-cult-nxivm/
Don’t know what it means, if anything. Nxivm was one of the most bizarre cults around.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXIVM
It’s obvious the entire Mexican government is controlled by the cartels given el presidente’s statement of hugs not bullets.
Ya still think the Wall is a stupid idea?
The cartels are already well-embedded in the USA. We need to 1) Root them out, viciously and violently, shoot them for “resisting arrest”, which they will do violently, or send them home after detaining them for a month on bread and water in the open Nevada desert. Give them some solar energy!
But as events have proven time after time, without a Wall, they simply return.
In Asheville NC the Democratic sheriff just released an illegal Mexican who’d been convicted of sex with an 11 year-old, sentenced to (only) three years but sprung from jail by the law. Said illegal had been previously expelled from the USA 13 times!
Is Obrador’s public rejection of US military aid cheap talk?
Given the apparent relative weakness of his current position, Obrador can’t signal willingness to cooperate with Hombre de Naranja or the same gunmen who freed nino de Chapo might target the largely powerless Mexican president’s political base or even his family.
Let’s wait and see who from the cartel wakes up dead in the next few weeks before we conclude there’s no possibility of increased cooperation between the US and Mexico on stopping narco-terrorism.
One thing I haven’t seen that I expect to see any minute now: progressives blaming The Wall and ipso facto Cheeto Hitler for these murders. They’re leaving money on the table smdh.
Mexico is a lot like the old West in the U.S. Not much law and order. Like every country I’ve ever been in that was a Spanish colony, graft is a way of life and not necessarily frowned upon by the citizens. I’ve interacted with the police in Mexico on several occasions. They accused me of breaking some obscure regulation followed by a demand for dinero to make it right. Grifters.
Mexicans are like most people. Some are hard workers and most are peaceful, but they have their share of bad hombres. And those are the ones who are in the cartels and MS-13. The police don’t want to, or are unable to, go up against them. The Mexican President, AMLO, would be well advised to imitate the Syrian Kurds. Let us put some special operators in country to train and equip his troops. Then go all out Genghis Khan on the cartels. It might take a couple of violent, bloody years, but the problem could be brought under control. It would be a benefit to both the U.S. and Mexico. Not expecting that to happen. AMLO will continue his anti-corruption and outreach programs while the cartels continue to dominate the country.
I used to visit Mexico frequently. I will never set foot in the country again or spend one centavo on Mexican products until the country deals with their cartels.
What Mexico and other former Spanish colonies need is to get rid of the custom of graft and government cronyism that keeps the common folks from getting ahead. Then organized crime wouldn’t seem so attractive. Not holding my breath on that one.
Mexico is what it has always been. Utterly corrupt. It is a pity because so many Mexicans are truly beautiful, kind, and hard working people. And revolution is futile. Zapata was assassinated, Washington died of old age.
J.J.
Not much law and order. Like every country I’ve ever been in that was a Spanish colony, graft is a way of life and not necessarily frowned upon by the citizens.
Yup. In my first meeting with our company’s manager in Venezuela, he told me how to write up expense reports to account for bribes paid to traffic cops. Rest assured I found it necessary advice. An Argentine who had worked in Venezuela told me that he preferred the Venezuelan way of bribery. A Venezuelan official- not just traffic cops- will be very upfront about how much you need to pay to facilitate things. In Argentina, he told me, officials will never tell you they require some extra cash to get things done, but without that extra cash, they will often not do their jobs.
Hugo Chávez made cracking down on corruption one of his main talking points during his 1998 Presidential campaign. When he was given the opportunity to crack down on corruption a year into his term, he decided that he was going to tolerate corruption from his cronies.
I wonder if it is time to treat the Mexican gangs not as a legal issue, but as an issue of war. Think of how President Bush quickly responded to 9/11. Perhaps AMLO should get a talking-to, where he is given the alternative between some nasty things being exposed about his past or giving the US a green light to go after the thugs in Mexico. One problem here is that the gangs are also in the US, where a military versus a legal approach is not so easy to do- as if it is easy in Mexico.
Yes.
It will eventually wind up that way whether we treat it as such now, or not.
“So then AMLO’s either on the take, a moron, or both. ”
Absolutely.
I’d give you an “upvote” if I could, but I can’t…so…
Absolutely!
My strong belief is the cartels and their corruption/vicious violence are everywhere in Mexico. In the governments, state and provincial; the military, and the police. There is nowhere safe to turn. Lopez Obrador knows this, is most likely part of it. How else to explain his pablum after these murders?
The internal (non-coastal) highways are the safest N-S routes for vehicles, and they are not all that safe. On any other roads you become coyote bait, with predators disguised in Federales uniforms… or actual Federales.
This has a long history. My brother and two friends were stopped 100 miles from the Rio some 40 years ago, forced to drive into the nighttime desert at gunpoint, and were fortunate enough to be released by the Federales after those took everything they had.
A Wall is the only solution. Forever!
We cannot expect to send in a bunch of Special Forces eradicators with a leftist Mexicano el Presidente.
The cartels will send, if they haven’t already in place, strike groups to slaughter American families and attack small town police departments and other government facilities.
If this is war, it’s not going to be limited in any way and starting small on our side is a losing proposition.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to merely reply with a drone attack, or anything else so small.
When executing a reprisal, it needs to be fearsome and game-changing in ways which are uniformly bad for the cartels, but of an unpredictable degree of severity. A drone attack is something that the cartels themselves can field. Nothing which falls within their own capabilities commands sufficient respect.
This is separate, also, from the issue of blocking illegal immigrants and illegal trafficking (humans, drugs, whatever) from the country. For that, one wants the wall, the soldiers on the border, the observation drones, heavy fines for hiring illegals, strong standards for verifying the immigration status of hirees, personal liability of hiring managers and executives (large fines proportional to income) for violations of those standards: In short, a multilayer solution which addresses both supply and demand. But, again, that’s a separate issue.
As for Mexico’s culture of corruption and graft? That’s the difference between a former BRITISH colony and a former SPANISH one. Not sure quite why it always works out that way, but the correlation does seem pretty reliable.
So Sad about the culture of corruption that is Mexico, and most of Spanish colonies.
Those Spanish colonies were conquered, more than settled, by tough conquistadors. Really tough guys. But, their idea was to conquer land, own a big plantation, and make the locals slave-like serfs do all the work. So the big owner, in a big hacienda, could enjoy life without work. Being the Big Man.
Conquerors looking for loot, and the product of others’ labor, rather than opportunity to settle and make their own way. Most British colonies had more settlers, fewer conquerors — with India a big exception.
India remains known for corruption, as well, tho it might be about to trend towards less corruption.
Trump is very unlikely to do anything major before Nov 2020; certainly not send in troops unless clearly asked by the corrupt Mexican President.
One of my fantasies is that the US cuts of Baja CA from the rest of Mexico, and runs a secession referendum that creates a new state which the US does help to police and clean up the corruption.
As AI becomes more useful, I’m looking forward to more gov’t posts being replaced by robots programmed to be against corruption. Still 5-20 years away for most of them, tho.
US should follow Israeli policy in this case. I am thinking of the Kidon teams they sent to hunt down the Munich Olympics culprits. Providing technical and intel support to the Mexican authorities is presumably already being done.
R.C. The cartels have Hellfire missiles? When I said drone, I should have clarified: Predator drones!
Glad to see that others confirm the way things are in former Spanish colonies. IMO, the reason is that Spain never had the kind of laws that came from the English colonizers. The right to own private property backed by the courts is a major difference. The Spanish tended to aggregate property rights to the elites with a system called encomiendas – property granted to elites by the crown that stayed in the family in perpetuity while keeping the masses as workers on the elites’ properties. They also used a legal code quite different than ours – guilty until proven innocent. A form of law that allows the elites in power to run over anyone that gets in their way.
I spent some time in the Philippines, which was a Spanish colony for 333 years, and became familiar with their customs and views about politics, private property, and the law. The Catholic Church loomed large in their lives. They gave great deference to the church, while leading rather secular and sinful lives. Most Filipinos considered that being a policeman, mayor, or other government official provided those worthies with the right to extort graft from the average citizen. It was a deeply imbedded belief. Even though the Philippines was a U.S. territory for some years (48 years), our system of private property laws and dislike of graft and corruption in politics had not gained many adherents. Communism was much more popular than American capitalism.
My experiences in Mexico mirrored what I saw in the Philippines. I’ve also seen much the same in other Central and South American countries. Graft and corruption in government accepted as normal. Communism is very attractive to an underclass that has no prospect of raising their standard of living. That, IMO, is why that area of the world is always flirting with Communism.
Andy Lancaster @andylancaster
That these killers are barbarians is without question and I would have no issue if someone exterminated them.
Whether or not we should bomb the cartel is a singular issue worthy of debate. Or maybe we should take some other action because it is necessary for the defense of the United States.
However, has anyone noticed that members of this family are citizens of Mexico? Why does not the government of Mexico do something? Oh. Never mind, they did; they surrendered. Why do we need do anything more? (Hazards of dual citizenship…..which I admit is a concept I despise).
Also, not that this is particularity important, the cynic in me wonders if someone in this family did something to tick off the cartel causing them to visit this outrage. I suspect probably more than not.
About a year ago, I encountered a first-hand experience of the brutality in Mexico. One of our consultants is from Mexico City and has a lot of family there. That particular day, his sister (a real estate attorney) texted him to pray for her as she was going to be meeting a couple at a piece of land for sale and it promised to be a good prospective client. Wrong time, wrong place. She was shot in the head and killed as an innocent by-stander, but I understand unspeakable things were done to the couple who had won a judgment against the local “powers that be”. All meant to be retribution and a warning to others.
Can someone name me any countries/cultures that are intolerant of corruption other than those that were established by Anglo Saxons/Northern Europeans/Protestant Christians? This is not sarcasm, I really want to know. Because I can’t think of any.
Please don’t say Japan. They have their own – very polite – form of corruption.
Have you ever noticed that Manju never comments on threads like these?
https://bongino.com/mexico-officials-at-odds-with-surviving-family-members-of-mormon-massacre/