Trump’s style: today’s example
Earlier today I wrote this post called “Designing the perfect Donald Trump.” The main topic was the “style” objection to Trump.
Just now I found an excellent example, I think, of that style:
The Do Nothing Democrats should be focused on building up our Country, not wasting everyone’s time and energy on BULLSHIT, which is what they have been doing ever since I got overwhelmingly elected in 2016, 223-306. Get a better candidate this time, you’ll need it!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 2, 2019
I’m a very polite person myself. But when pushed to anger, I can show my New York City roots. That’s what I often see in Trump, and I think he’s spot on here.
However – of course – that Twitter thread is filled with rage and derision against Trump. But Twitter is filled with that sort of thing anyway; that’s its basic raison d’etre, as far as I can see. Trump’s discourse is perfectly suited to it, but that’s a cultural problem rather than a Trumpian one.
Many years ago when I first heard of Twitter with its limit of a few hundred characters, I thought it was laughable, and a perfect augmentation of our sound bite media.
Antonio Martinez, who spent 2 or 3 years as a Facebook project manager, claims that Mark Zuckerberg’s assessment of Twitter was that it was a “clown car that accidentally ran into a gold mine.”
Some pundit whose name I don’t recall, recently said that the thing about Trump that a lot people like, is that they feel he will “go through walls for them.” A Mitt Romney or John McCain wouldn’t go through a sheet of tissue paper for the American people.
Now Obama wouldn’t actually go through walls himself, but he would hire a Rahm Emanuel or John Podesta, who in turn would hire a bunch of mercenaries to semi-secretly go through walls to transform America.
Trump did not get “overwhelmingly elected” though, and him saying that is what I have the problem with far more than him being brash or boastful and using off-color language. This is a fight for ideas, why our side is better than their side. If you cant articulate that because you cant be truthful for starters this detracts, not adds. This is the 1st time for me I cant tell who’s telling me the truth about any particular issue; The press, whom I know hates a Republican administration or a Presidential administration so thin skinned it will say anything out of personal honor. If Trump would just improve on that score he’d be doing better, but thats out of his reach.
When Trump says “overwhelmingly elected” he’s probably referring to the fact that he won a majority of the states and counties of the country. Broken down by county, he was “overwhelmingly elected” if you just look at the map.
But I do understand where you’re coming from. As a lawyer, I wish Trump were more careful with words. But at 73, I don’t think Mr. Trump is going to change.
I have a born and raised NYC friend who says Trump is VERY New York! His facial expressions, mannerisms, use of language, so much. I do agree from what I know of New Yorkers.
I am not entirely sure that this helps him, but it does endear him to some. I think the fact that he is raw and real, and not parsing every word like most politicians is winning to one degree or another. However, he also goes overboard on the reactions at times. However, I don’t blame him for being super pissed off and frustrated by all the impeachment nonsense though. He’s right that no matter what, these legislators should get on with governing.
Micheal Townes: “Broken down by county, he was “overwhelmingly elected” if you just look at the map.”
Yeah, that IS impressive looking. Thankfully we’re still a Republic.
I *LOVE* that Trump tweet. Not only because I completely agree but because I am ecstatic that the POTUS finally represents my interests almost 100% AND doesn’t care about pissing off the Left. Finally! It’s a feature, not a bug.
Taste and refinement means essentially nothing unless you choose to make it so. You can also choose to not care about it, after realizing it means nothing. That’s what I did in 2016.
Leadership and policy mean everything whether you realize it or not. It’s not a choice—it’s there, waiting for you to see it.
People who elevate taste and refinement above leadership and policy—the kind they should ostensibly like, as nominal conservatives—confuse the hell out of me.
Michael Towns; Harry:
One of the weirdest things about Trump is that he is oblique in some ways but if you actually look more carefully he’s usually quite clear.
For example, in the current example, he writes “overwhelmingly elected in 2016, 223-306.” That is the Electoral College vote score. So it’s very clear what he’s talking about.
Jeff Brokaw:
Thing is, though – if I may be so bold as to speak for the Harrys of the world – what I think they are trying to say is that if Trump were a more refined Trump he would have even more support, and that his style risks alienating a lot of people who might otherwise support him.
That would be a good argument, if true. Trouble is I don’t know that it’s true.
At any rate, as I have argued today, it’s moot because such a person is so rare as to be virtually non-existent, and there are reasons for that rarity.
neo: “For example, in the current example, he writes “overwhelmingly elected in 2016, 223-306.” That is the Electoral College vote score. So it’s very clear what he’s talking about.”
OK. Missed the 223-306 reference so on that score he isnt being dishonest. I withdraw my complaint on that text.
He should really have somebody edit his tweets though.
Harry:
But the thing is – and this is important – that’s often the case. He’s sometimes very telegraphic in his communications, which is a characteristic of Twitter in general. It can lead to confusion and open the door to criticism if people don’t notice what he’s actually saying, which is more far careful than most people imagine.
Of course, once his critics have misinterpreted what he said, he can then point out that they were wrong, and why.
Again, I don’t know if that’s a winning strategy. But I have come to think it is indeed a strategy. Not 4-dimensional chess, but a very distinct and intentional strategy nonetheless.
I dont know neo. I just find it unsettling. I dont think its a winning strategy at all. I think we need to be more articulate, not less. Thats my worry.
Trump did not get “overwhelmingly elected” though
He got a respectable majority in the EC, which is how presidents are elected in this country. The precincts in Orange County CA that had a 114% turnout should teach you something about popular vote.
Liberty Wolf:
Indeed. Trump’s a New Yorker through and through.
Harry:
Lots of people here share that worry. It’s just that, as I have said, it’s moot for a number of reasons.
I’ll echo Neo’s and Liberty Wolf’s comment about Trump being a New Yorker. I grew up in Denver with all the usual mid-west and western sensibilities. I married a Long Island girl, and boy did I get an education when I first met her family including her father. He was loud, brash, and not afraid to speak his mind and get into an argument on the spot. I then learned that he was typical NYC guy (born and raised there). That was 35 years ago. When Trump came along the first thing I said to my wife was: he’s like your father, she agreed and laughed.
And boy, it’s a breath of fresh air to see him deflate the PC balloon which has dominated us for at least 10-15 years.
“If Trump would just improve on that score he’d be doing better, but thats out of his reach.”
I really don’t understand randos like me on the internet who think they have a better understanding of the situation than the world famous billionaire who got himself elected President when practically no one gave him a chance.
Which isn’t to say Trump is right about everything because no one is but there’s something petulantly childish in continuing to insist that this massively successful man would be more successful if he’d just follow the advice of some anonymous nobody who’s done nothing.
Mike
“I dont think its a winning strategy at all.”
See. THIS is what I mean. Trump already won doing it his way. He not only beat Hillary, the Democrats, and the media, Trump beat the entire GOP establishment. Harry’s comments just ignore all that winning.
Mike
Born in NYC slum, living in a great part of the city now…
Trump doesn’t bother people who dont hide behind proper behavior to hide their selves. He also doesn’t bother results oriented people… and the USA has a long long history of LOVING leaders that get results…
ask McClellan..
Dont ask what a Bronx Cheer is…
You’re being a tad harsh arent you Mike? After all you dont know me, how can you say with any certainty Ive done nothing? Because Im not on TV?
Id say a guy who etched out an electoral college win over a horribly corrupt lying harpy of a candidate and will probably only end up etching out a win over the next batch of obviously horribly awful candidates can stand a good critique. He’s definitely not the wonder hero you imagine him to be. But it does seem that you are personally invested in his image.
Harry:
“Overwhelming” is not measured only by numbers.
Donald Trump’s election was the greatest upset in American political history. If you want to see what “overwhelmed” looks like, go to YouTube and watch the videos of the media melt down in utter disbelief.
I have and believe me, I too partook in the schadenfreude. Ive youtubed those videos and have taken delight in them and I hope to do the same in 2020.
I just hope I do. It will still be an electoral college win if he does and I assert that is because of his personality and even though it obviously pisses people of here, its OK to have that opinion and express it.
“show my New York City roots”
Haha. I once made up a joke:
What’s the difference between California and New York?
In California first they say “I really hate to have to do this.”
Then they say, “This hurts me more than it hurts you.”
Then they say, “Thanks for letting me share that with you.”
In New York first they say, “WE’RE GONNA F*** YOU!”
Then they say, “WE’RE F***ING YOU!”
Then they say, “YOU KNOW WHAT? WE JUST F***ED YOU!”
You can tell I’m from California by the asterisks.
I hear everyone talk about his behavior, and yet, i guess the behavior of past presidents was better as a rule?
Lyndon Johnson Orders Pants While Belching And Talking About His “Bunghole” [AUDIO]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=65&v=S3GT9UN7nDo
“See if you can’t leave me an inch from where the zipper (BURPS) ends, round, under my back to bunghole, so I can let it out there if I need it.” LBJ
The book “The Big Guy”
Let me know if Trump ever got near THAT kind of public behavior..
Not only that, but when LBJ was doing it, people were a lot more tight and prudish than they are now… big time.
Your concepts and ideas are protected by an ignorance that allows the thought to continue, unabated, as if, it was truth… no… Trumps behavior is not unique, and compared to history, not all that bad either..
let me know when he rapes a woman, takes her baby, commits her illegally to a mental institution… He would have to do that too to match another Dem President..
I would have said BS, and advised Trump to say BS rather than BULLSHIT (caps!).
But those who are NOT girly-men most probably respect a man more who says bullshit when he means it, rather than BS or bulls**t.
Trump doesn’t need more support, he needs those who support him to go vote for him. Getting the men to respect him helps; and he talks like them, so he’s believable.
I think lots of women respect him, too.
It’s sad to think that his sexual ability to leave an older attractive woman, and cheat on her with a younger model, is something that seems to cause many men to respect him more. Like Clinton, LBJ, Kennedy (all of them??), ML King; Harvey Weinstein.
The dynamics of male leaders gaining more respectful followers thru successful sexual affairs has not been well studied. But it’s pretty clearly often happening. I don’t like Trump for that.
Melania is the hottest hottest hot First Lady, ever. Yes, over Jackie K (tho she, too was hot — and so often cheated on).
Lots of Libertarians, like RA Heinlein, believe in and support the idea of responsible promiscuity. I used to believe in it. Don’t any more. But understand its attraction for young men who are alpha male wannabees.
Artfldgr on LBJ – Jumbo it was…
wait… wait till you guys hear what i just heard about the whistleblower…
wowsers… like dropping things till it all stinks… hmmmm..
going to be interesting at the very least…
Winning one of the smallest percentages of electoral votes in American History is overwhelming?
He’s number 46 out of 58.
Which isn’t to say Trump is right about everything because no one is but there’s something petulantly childish in continuing to insist that this massively successful man would be more successful if he’d just follow the advice of some anonymous nobody who’s done nothing.
+10
You think thats right Art? For myself I think it enormously childish to claim whatever successes he’s made in his personal life turns him into an article of hero worship so far above critique you come off as deeply personally wounded if someone points out obvious glaring points, such as nearly winning an election over a horribly life-long corrupt political crony who can barley walk without aid.
The BS, spelled out in capital letters, seems positively refined compared to the female Representative who is selling t-shirts saying, “Impeach the MFer” (spelled out).
He could have elaborated, but why bother when everyone knows… diversity, political congruence, selective-child, social justice, redistributive change, reparations, anthropogenic global cooling… warming… climate change. We didn’t spread the bullshit, it’s been seeping since Deep Plunger serviced Water Closet. We didn’t spread the bullshit. Democrats have well and truly jumped the ass. #HateLovesAbortion
Harry: Does anyone here except you think that Trump has “hero worship” or is a “wonder hero?” And frankly, I don’t think that you think that anyone worships Trump as a hero – it’s just lazy debate rhetoric.
If you sincerely are a NeverTrumper who is still stuck in 2016, thinking that if only a nice guy like Cruz had won, the Democrats would be nice to us, I have pity for you. But really, by the timing and the talking points, I think you’re a variant concern troll. I see an uptick in troll activity in forums like this, depending on certain events.
Let me spell this out for you:
We don’t f’ing care about whatever it is that is bunching your tighty whities.
I don’t think anyone on this forum was a Trump fan in the early stages of the race. I don’t recall that anyone went and voted for Trump and was happy about it. Up until the end, the QuixoteContingent (TM) was still carrying on about how they were going to show them, by either not voting at all or by voting third party, rather than besmirch themselves by voting for a candidate they didn’t approve of. We voted for Trump because preventing a Hillary Clinton presidency was what we now think of as a “Flight 93”-level event: something we must stop, or die trying. The only way to do that on election day that year was to vote for Trump.
Assuming you are a real NeverTrumper, the difference between you and most of us is that we grew and evolved. “Growing” and “evolving” doesn’t necessarily mean becoming kinder and gentler; it can also mean becoming a better fit for the world we live in. We now know that by the time of the presidential race of 2016, normalcy was a distant smudge in the rear view mirror. Being a gentleman is off the table of options, not because of us, but because of the far left. You can decide to not start a fight, but when someone else decides to start a fight with you, your options are to fight back or get beat up. That’s where we are. That’s where we were in 2016. Had Cruz won, there would have been lies and hysterics from the left just like there were with Trump, but Cruz would have been steamrolled into a grease slick long before the attacks had to be ratcheted up to the level they have had to go to with Trump. Trump may not be a perfect gentleman, but he’s not dealing with gentlemen, so it would be a stupid, bad idea to be a gentleman in that circumstance. I’m glad to have him, and not Cruz, on my side against evil bags of sh1t like – well, pretty much all current Democrat politicians and lackeys.
Trump’s language choices may be offensive to some – as stated above – but I think those that are offended are part of a minority. I’m 62 years old, have worked in corporate sales (B2B) for 35 years, and this sort of language is MILD compared to what I’m used to hearing. When we are with customers we are quite reserved and polite, no swear words, but among ourselves all of George Carlin’s dirty words are deployed.
Trump uses those words sparingly, to great effect IMHO. I much prefer that to the tortured locutions of “my distinguished colleague” and the like. “Jane, you ignorant slut…”. LOL.
KyndIIG: “Harry: Does anyone here except you think that Trump has “hero worship” or is a “wonder hero?”
Judging from the over-the-top personal responses Ive gotten, including yours? Yes. It would appear so.
BTW: If you had read my responses you would know that I am not a “NeverTrumper”. I am more of a “StuckwithTrumper”.
My tighty whities are just fine though, but thanks for your exciting debate rhetoric. Thats so much better than mine.
Steve Walsh: “I’m 62 years old, have worked in corporate sales (B2B) for 35 years, and this sort of language is MILD compared to what I’m used to hearing. When we are with customers we are quite reserved and polite, no swear words…”
Right. That makes sense. Like saving terms like “shithole countries” back in the office, because you’re trying to sell something…like an image of yourself as a world leader. I get it.
“Assuming you are a real NeverTrumper, the difference between you and most of us is that we grew and evolved.”
-KyndllG
I gave Harry the benefit of the doubt before but as I read his responses here at Neo-Neo HQ, I’m taking a second look at Harry. In an earlier response to him I said something to the effect that Harry may not be the enemy but that he makes it hard to tell the difference. Not so sure anymore.
Harry, under the pretense of lecturing us, is more focused on undermining the confidence of people who support Trump, either enthusiastically or reluctantly. He claims not to be a NeverTrumper but a Stuck With Trumper. He claims this while endlessly browbeating the supporters with claims that their support is hero worship, when anyone with 5th grade level reading comprehension can see that it is, generally, nothing of the sort.
I was pretty blunt with him both yesterday and earlier today but that was because I felt he was merely mistaken and had his head planted squarely, yet genuinely, in his rectum. And maybe it could be removed with a liberal application of humorous contempt. But the more I read his responses, the more I’m wondering if he’s just plain disingenuous; nuthin’ but a garden variety troll collecting a paycheck like manju.
You can tell because he brings nothing else to the discussion.
Sigh, so clever of you. I am wounded.
The point is that language is used for a specific purpose, and thus this idea that the ideal leader has an obligation to communicate in a certain, genteel or inoffensive, way is old, tired, and obsolete. Insisting that his language is crude or unseemly is just asserting civility bullshit, as Ann Althouse has coined it.
Spare me your offense. Here’s what is offensive to me: fake and manufactured charges lodged at the properly elected President of the US by partisans in the opposition party as part of an attempt to remove him from office. That is, as Trump clearly says, bullshit.
You think thats right Art? For myself I think it enormously childish to claim whatever successes he’s made in his personal life turns him into an article of hero worship
The gamesmanship is tiresome. Coming to resemble a domestic argument.
“You’re being a tad harsh arent you Mike? After all you dont know me, how can you say with any certainty Ive done nothing?”
Donald Trump is a world famous billionaire who has done real estate deals around the world and, at an age when most successful people are in decline or desperately hanging on to what they got, he reinvented himself as a prime time TV star and then won the Presidency of the United States. 90% of Trump’s critics combined are nothing compared to him.
Those are facts. Not hero worship.
Donald Trump has also had huge failures to go along with his successes, probably hasn’t been quite as successful in business as he claims, is on his third marriage, and I wouldn’t be at all shocked if the reason he doesn’t want to release his tax returns is because he gives virtually nothing to charity.
It was mostly reasonable to be leery of Donald Trump in 2016. It’s even mostly reasonable to still have objections or misgivings about some of his policies, like the whole tariff business. It is not reasonable to still be whining about Trump’s tone and temperament in 2019, especially when the behavior of his enemies is so atrocious and especially is you’re just some rando on the internet.
Mike
Just got to say Harry is a worse troll than Manju; humorless, tiresome, and self righteous, but very concerned. Kendal G has him pegged as does Fractal Rabbit.
“I think it enormously childish to claim whatever successes he’s made in his personal life turns him into an article of hero worship”
Recognizing reality is not hero worship.
I’ve had this same argument with Rod Dreher, who routinely denigrates Trump’s character and competence even as he openly acknowledges that Trump is on his side. Character? Yeah, I’m not gonna argue that one too much. But competence?
Trump is a political neophyte who has had stumbles and mistakes experienced operators would have avoided but in what demonstrable way is Donald Trump actually less competent than Barack Obama or George W. Bush or Bill Clinton?
And the reason it matters is not because I give a damn about Donald Trump. I care because I think this reflexive dismissal of Donald Tump is rooted in political and cultural attitudes that are at best snobbish and at worst genuinely bigoted. Those attitudes left uncorrected will some day bring about a disaster the likes of few alive today have ever seen.
Mike
Yes I remember the arguments here between the Never Trumpers, versus the Never Hillary so bet Trump camps.
I remember asking if anyone at all saw Trump as their first pick, and I recall that there were possibly 3 to 5 (out of what? 50 commenters?) who either said that they were Trump first, or had someone close to them who was.
But once Cruz was out of the race, it was a simple calculation for me; though some, including Neo, initially and vehemently disagreed about the competing probable damage assessments; and with a couple of hard anti-Trump cases avowedly prepared to witness the rule of law die in this country rather than see Trump in the Executive.
Because you know … you can always get your freedom back once it’s gone …
Yeah, and I think Cruz, would likely have been steamrolled. He had no allies except we legalists; having called out numerous Republican dishrags by name. He would have been the equivalent of the lone voice of reason reading out Roberts Rules of Order as the crazies in the Chamber of Deputies chimped out, swinging from the chandeliers, waving their pistols and flicking their tongues at passersby.
Yes, Trump’s comment is spot on because it hits back twice as hard. People are fed up with both parties & voted for someone to shake things up in DC…
Trump is a political neophyte who has had stumbles and mistakes experienced operators would have avoided
Trump is surrounded by enemies that took him a while to recognize. Rence Priebus was no help. He relies too much on his kids but what would anyone do with that pit of snakes.
I’m not particularly impressed with Trump’s financial success. He’s had a checkered career. However, IMO, politicians in both parties have lived in a bubble so long, that they’ve grown weak. They’ve not dealt with much reality beyond schmoozing, polls reading, and fundraising.
Trump’s background in business and media cuts through the usual Washington games shockingly well, even against the fiercest onslaught of hate and dirty tricks I’ve seen a President endure in my lifetime.
Donald Trump: The Greta Thunberg of the Neo Neocon blog page.
Harry: Are you sure you’re not having a the-perfect-is-the-enemy-of-the-good problem?
I may be considering the alternatives and I probably should stop bitching and recognize the reality of the situation, but damn…I think what sets me off occasionally though IS the seeming hero worship on top of my contention that Trump creates his own problems, and therefore ours.
“Donald Trump: The Greta Thunberg of the Neo Neocon blog page.”
Could be I’m just dense but I have no clue what the hell that is supposed to mean. It’s some sort of gibberish I can’t manage to interpret.
I’ll help. Greta Thunberg: The person who’s mental state and or motives may not be questioned because she has been rendered the patron saint of many left-wing ideas thoughts desires and emotions.
Here it seems, she has an opposite yet equal cult of personality among quite a few here.
Harry, you’re attributing beliefs to people, none of whom claim to believe what you like to think of them. That’s asinine on its face. Why though? Who do you think you are? Seriously, what gives?
IMO, Harry is a troll whose mission is to use Neo’s commenters as a kind of “focus group” to determine what approaches and arguments will get the most useful response, that is, will potentially have the effect of undermining support for Trump.
The regular commenters are pretty much set in our ways (ahem), although I have seen some yielding to facts which contradict prior opinions, when they are introduced civilly and on point, which is not what Harry is doing.
He throws things out, see who catches the ball and throws it back, then lobs one to another part of the court to see who hits it back, changing his story (although not tone, I notice) a little bit, but mostly repeating the same schtick in hopes it will, uh, stick.
His target, I believe, is the group of silent readers who don’t weigh into the conversation, but might find themselves in agreement with his suggestions if he phrases them in just the right way.
If he can get someone to support one or another of his trial balloons, then he can take that to Troll Central for mass marketing.
I can’t find it now, of course, but some time ago I posted a link to a story about how the Democrats trained large groups of campaign volunteers to call into radio talk shows with canned comments and try to steer the conversation into more favorable waters, or at least drop enticing nuggets of scepticism for the listeners.
They were so obviously coached that some of the hosts realized multiple callers were reading the same script. They were also taught to disguise their identities, use multiple fake names, and lie.
Trump has style, all right.
https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2019/10/02/trump-executes-epic-epic-troll-joe-biden/
Have Harry and manju ever been seen in the same place at the same time?
Trump’s style is just the preference of the street talk to the lawyer’s talk, which is an advantage in persuading voters. Many politicians tried fake this, but almost always they, indeed, sound fake. Trump does it completely sincere and authentic. This street talk is anathema to ruling class mandarins, and they wrongly assume that most people share their disgust to this kind of the straight talk. They see outrage in many Trump’s sayings, but to lots of people there is nothing outrageous in them at all.
This American art of overstatement is just a mirror image of the British art of understatement. This is one of the thousand conventions inherent to all verbal communications. Once the listeners get accustomed to them, they hear exactly what the speaker wants to say. This is the reason why Trump supporters take him seriously, but not literally, and his haters take him literally, but not seriously.
“…mission…”
No, not a troll. Not at all.
Just hard for some of us to truly understand that “you gotta dance with the girl that brung ya”….
(That is, if any of us ever do truly understand it…)
File under: “Why can’t people be the way I want them to be? (Is that so unreasonable??)”
Om has it right. “Harry” is a troll of the “Concern” variety. This requires much more skill and subtlety than the more straightforward varieties, such as “Manju”. Neo should feel honored that the Leftist propaganda mills have assigned such a valuable asset to her blog.
Chapeau!
Cruz, had he been elected, would NOT be steamrolled — but he, too, would have few allies. And get less done.
But Cruz would NOT get the ex-Dem voters who did vote for Obama but switched, so he wouldn’t get elected.
That’s what I was expecting while supporting him, hoping he would be as successful as The Donald actually was. (Now I don’t believe Cruz or any other Rep would have won.)
The media doesn’t cover Trump’s huge rallies very much. The Dem media. Trump, like Reagan, is both a politician AND a TV/movie personality. Good to Great with crowds. (Tho I don’t like even listening that long to a speaker, much prefer a transcript. At least it’s not Hillary’s, nor Palin’s, screechy voice.)
The Dems in colleges, discriminating against and now demonizing Reps, has trained the elite. Has college indoctrinated the elite, mostly successfully, against Reps and conservative values, including true civility.
Being upset at Trump’s tone, while accepting the c* word against Palin (2008, 8 years before Trump), or against Ivanka, is totally hypocritical. Like Althouse said, civility bullshit — our side can be vulgar and offensive but you’re evil if you’re impolite.
Trump didn’t make the insult-attack mode of political discourse. Reps have been under attack since Bush / Reagan / Nixon / Goldwater (’64) He’s just the first Rep leader to use that mode, occasionally, in deliberately offensive ways as part of his defense. After they’ve attacked him first.
(Better to ignore Harry than let him, or manju, hijack a thread).
The thing to remember about the President is that he grew up in Queens, an outer borough. Those of us who did have a chip on our shoulder that for all too many people Queens is not thought of as New York City. I have to admit that we from Queens are guilty of the same. Whenever we talk about going into Manhattan, we say we are going into the city. We are in the city, for God’s sake.
I will admit that I know live in Manhattan. That may well say something about those of us from an outer borough.
Harry on October 2, 2019 at 6:38 pm said:
You think thats right Art? For myself I think it enormously childish to claim whatever successes he’s made in his personal life turns him into an article of hero worship so far above critique you come off as deeply personally wounded if someone points out obvious glaring points……….
your really funny Harry.. hard to hide your failure in life
you can only fantasize about your success translating to something else
and dont give me the BULLSHIT about how you are successful, etc
no, your not… and i know it… everyone else does too
thats why your so funny…
you do whats no longer “right”, thats old fashioned, pre nose rings purple hair etc.
you are an anachronism who wants things to go back to a time that you could succeed without having to adapt away from the things you treasured..
you would rather lose in suit than win in shorts
your all image no substance… most are actually
all your biatching about is IMAGE… not substance
ALL your doing is saying, i love a figure head over the real deal
dont worry, most do… ergo Venezuela, and Germany and other places
and even us considering a social democrat like VI Lenin..
go back to Shakespeare and learn, all that glitters is not gold
and perfection is the enemy of the good, and friend to evil by its corollary
lets me know which camp your in, whether you realize it or not, or care or not, or deny or not
Harry: KyndIIG: “Harry: Does anyone here except you think that Trump has “hero worship” or is a “wonder hero?” Judging from the over-the-top personal responses Ive gotten, including yours? Yes. It would appear so.
over the top by whose standards? you see… you are not the arbiter of social decorum ina world where suspended bondage is a public hobby… where fisting is a great maplethorpe image in the witney… where people enjoy canibalism by nipping off a bit of a loved ones shoulder…
your trying to appeal to conservatives who are not politburo level stuck up twats with bees in their bonet over eveyrone else… (like you)
Miss manners died a long time ago
ask huxley… he never liked those etiquette points
but thats the point..
only a MORON or a manipulative Fck would pretend some oprobation to create a set of rules so that the side they are pretending on and betraying would lose but do so in some manner the super arse would not be held for it
how do you look in a mirror? your points are so over the top?
your communism is showing outside your leaking..
i will quote LBJ on this one “Bunghole”
hey.. where were you when the Democrat president raped a woman?
lets have some fun…
lets show the world that at no time, was there ever a time, where Harry belongs based on his own prurient comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[maybe i can get another standing ovation for backing up my words again?]
Alexander Hamilton Secretary of the Treasury, had an affair with Maria Reynolds while both were married to other people
Thomas Jefferson (DR-VA), President, was publicly accused of fathering the children of his slave Sally Hemings,
Andrew Jackson (D-TN) married a woman whose divorce was not final, making him a bigamist. her name was Rachel Donelson Jackson…
“His mistresses are generally, if not always, colored women — some of them big black wenches as ugly and vulgar as himself” – Reporter Jane Grey Swisshelm (who according to feminists didnt have this job ever back then!)
ames Buchanan (D), U.S. Senator, diplomat, later President of the United States, and William Rufus King (D-NC), supposedly had a gay bromance..
Grover Cleveland, President (D-NY): During the 1884 presidential race, the news broke that Cleveland had paid child support to the widowed Maria Crofts Halpin for her son Oscar Folsom Cleveland, born in 1874. Halpin accused Cleveland of raping her, leading to her pregnancy, and she also accused him of later institutionalizing her against her will to gain control of their child. Cleveland’s acknowledgement of Oscar’s paternity ameliorated the political situation but the controversy prompted Cleveland’s opponents to adopt the chant, “Ma, ma, where’s my pa?”
After Cleveland won the election, the chant was answered by, “Gone to the White House, ha, ha, ha!”
Arthur Brown (U.S. senator) (R-UT) US Senator, and founder of the Utah State Republican Party, was shot dead by his longtime mistress, Anne Maddison Bradley for having a second mistress.
Woodrow Wilson President (D) allegedly had an affair with Mary Allen Hulbert
David I. Walsh Senator (D-MA), was accused of visiting a male brothel frequented by Nazi spies in Brooklyn in 1942
John F. Kennedy President (D), has been linked to a number of extramarital affairs, including allegations of involvement with Marilyn Monroe, with Judith Campbell Exner and with intern Mimi Alford
Lyndon B. Johnson President (D), had extramarital affairs with multiple women over the years, in particular with Alice Marsh
William O. Douglas U.S. Supreme Court Justice, allegedly pursued other women while married to his third wife, which, combined with his three divorces and remarriages, was considered scandalous. He also reportedly tried to molest a flight attendant in his judicial chambers. Attempted impeachment based upon his moral character failed, when the House Judiciary Committee found insufficient grounds for impeachment
Wilbur Mills, Representative (D-AR), was found intoxicated with stripper Fanne Foxe.
Allan Howe, Representative (D-UT), was arrested for soliciting two police officers posing as prostitutes.
John Young, Representative (D-TX): A former female staffer said she received a pay raise after giving in to Young’s sexual advances.
Wayne Hays, Representative (D-OH): The Elizabeth Ray sex scandal ended his career in 1976.
Fred Richmond, Representative (D-NY): Charges that he solicited sex from a 16-year-old boy were dropped after he submitted to counseling
Robert L. Leggett, Representative (D-CA), acknowledged that he fathered two illegitimate children by a Congressional secretary, whom he supported financially. He then had an affair with another woman, who was an aide to Speaker Carl Albert
Joseph P. Wyatt, Jr., Representative (D-TX) was arrested on homosexual charges in 1979
John Andrew Young (D-TX) US Representative, a female staffer alleged she was forced to have sex in order to keep her job. Young referred to the charge as ‘poppycock’ though his wife committed suicide the next year. Though he ran again, he lost his next primary election.(1976)
Donald “Buz” Lukens Representative (R-OH) Convicted of Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor for having sex with a 16 yr old girl
Jon Hinson, Representative (R-MS), resigned after being charged with attempted sodomy for performing oral sex on a male employee of the Library of Congress.(1981)
Gus Savage, Representative (D-IL), was accused of trying to force himself on a female Peace Corps worker while in Zaire.[72] No action was taken by the House Ethics Committee after he apologized to her.
Austin J. Murphy, Representative (D-PA), acknowledged fathering a child out of wedlock after a political opponent came forward with video of Murphy leaving the home of his mistress
there is ALWAYS a lot more!!!!
Pretty good summary. Johnson also had a long time affair with Helen Gahagan Douglas, who was a married Congresswoman and was defeated by Richard Nixon for the Senate.
I would ask Harry, why? Why is Trump praised as a hero? All heroes are ordinary men who accomplish something extraordinary. Someone stands up, fights, and most importantly, wins! I’m sure you could pick any hero throughout history, select their worst moments, and portray them as nondeserving of hero status. But in spite of their humanity they accomplish something great. No matter how you feel about Trump, no one can deny he has accomplished something amazing. Winning the presidency of the most powerful nation on Earth against all odds with a multitude of powerful people, and even nations, arrayed against him is no small feat. Of such, legends are born.
I don’t say this boastfully, but I am an intellectual whereas my husband is not. He runs a small construction company with ten employees. And yes, he thinks Trump is a hero. I’m generalizing, but maybe the hero worship breaks along educational, intellectual lines. It seems this site’s comment community is well educated and informed and I don’t see hero worship among these comments, but rather a solid appreciation of Trump’s obvious accomplishments in the face of rabid opposition. My rather long winded point is that Harry is directing his complaints to the wrong crowd and failing to realize why Trump worship is a thing among a different crowd.
My sons were 16 and 23 on election day in 2016. They LOVED Trump early in the primaries because they thought he was funny as hell. They loved that he was not a typically boring, mealy mouth politician. I didn’t vote for him in the primary and have been surprised and delighted with his incredibly policy successes as president. His greatest victory, however, has been his ability to get the press to expose itself as the corrupt, incompetent frauds they are.
I have a lot of middle class and lower middle class friends on FB from flyover country. They LOVE Trump and for some of the same reasons my boys do. They love that he calls bullshit on liberal bullshit. They love that he will fight his ass off for America. They accurately sense that his patriotic instincts are just like theirs. Doesn’t matter that he’s rich. His belief system, his instinct to fight, his refusal to adopt PC BS, and his willingness to stand alone without backing down absolutely THRILL these people. I repeat — THRILL these ordinary folks.
Trump’s events are unlike anything we’ve ever seen. He’s like a rock star because he connects on a very real, emotional, gut level with ordinary Americans. I am shocked at how many commenters here (and elsewhere on the right side of the blogosphere) don’t get this. Or at least seem to resist mightily understanding what their eyes and ears are plainly telling them.
My advice — don’t even bother paying attention to any political pundit pontificating about the 2020 election unless they start with an acknowledgement of Trump’s unprecedented appeal to these people. He attracts union members, traditional Democrats, minorities and independents. He renders normal polling assumptions inoperable. He is a one person political realignment.
Neo is 100% right about Trump’s style being a critical part of his success. It doesn’t appeal to snooty teacup pinky types. But ordinary folks love it. They finally feel like they have found a politician who speaks plainly, keeps his promises, and fights like hell for them.
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t call Harry a troll. He’s commented a bit off and on for about a year and a half here, and is fairly consistent. He has a certain style that tends to lead to argument, but so far I don’t think he’s dissembling.
re: Trump’s competence and accomplishments
Modi and 50,000 Indian-Americans cheering for Trump in Houston. Can anyone name another Republican who could have accomplished this?
Any other Republican who could have people voluntarily wait in lines for days just to cheer for him? Wait in lines knowing there wasn’t room for them inside?!
Any other Republican who could poll the numbers Trump is getting from all kinds of minorities? (even with pollsters skewing samples against him)
Trump has a populist appeal that no one else in politics has had in my lifetime. And he has it despite the news media, Hollywood, the academy, and the establishment of both parties (including a coup attempting FBI, CIA and State Dept) trashing him, slandering him and accusing him of treason. I would hope that those with eyes and ears might come to realize that this isn’t that easy to do. There’s not another politician in history who has stood up to such an onslaught and survived. And Trump has not only survived, he’s thrived.
Let Harry comment. Doesn’t make me upset. And if the ‘old Mac’ and Bill could not drive you nuts with their masochistic pseudo-moralizing back when this was a live, life and death issue, Harry certainly won’t.
@ Tom Grey
Ok maybe Cruz would not have been “steamrolled” precisely. More like a flood of unlawful extra-constitutional legislative initiatives and virulent and unremitting press attacks would have swirled around him as he tried to splash it back with his bare hands, while prissy fellow Republicans prostrated themselves as usual before Stalin-o-crat scolds.
I don’t usually quote movies, but I keep seeing that scene in Dr. Zhivago when the dutiful army officer climbs atop a barrel in order to exhort the men to do what’s right. Maybe not that bad, but the press hated Cruz as much as Trump, if for different reasons; including his supposedly dangerous “black Irish” looks according to Chris Mathews. “Hey Cruz, you unfeeling rigorist; you have a potbelly, look like Joe McCarthy, and your wife is fat … hardee har har”
Trump has unique extracurricular resources to call upon that Cruz, a principled and courageous man, simply didn’t have. As well as very few inhibitions when it comes to hitting back, apparently.
Remarkable isn’t it, the reaction a politician gets when he refuses to see the productive class of his own country as the chief moral problem in the world; and actually seems to sincerely wish that they experience economic progress and physical well-being as part of their political project … rather than while away their lives in a state of government directed and managed decline and punitive suffering.
A weird thing — Trump comes on like a sixties “Tell it like it is” radical underdog. He won’t play by the Man’s rules and the people love him for it.
Next thing you know he will be putting LSD in the water supply…
DNW:
I think Cruz’s main drawback is his lack of populist and personal appeal.
However, I think that Cruz would have been attacked and would have fought back very hard. He would have fought back in a more erudite way than Trump. Whether that would have worked I do not know, and I think his lack of personal appeal (charm) would have been a substantial drawback. But he’s pretty brave himself and very much of a fighter too.
DNW: “Let Harry comment. Doesn’t make me upset.”
Thank you! There’s no reason why it should have upset anyone, which is why I suspected a lot of hero worship here. Blind support of somebody I dont need and neither should anyone else. Its like Im on Fox & Friends here. Where’s Megan Kelly when you need her?
Neo: “so far I don’t think he’s dissembling.”
Thanks neo. For the record, I used to post as Harry the Extremist because back in the day, if you supported GW Bush over some of his Republican competitors you were the true Nazi …but judging from many in this crowd, I dont think the “extremist” label fit any more…
I do appreciate some of these later arguments in favor of Trump. The ones who offered argument rather than call me a bow-tie wearing concern troll putz whose tighty whities were in a bunch. The people who most likely stick with Sean Hannity because he’s easier on the ears than a Ben Shapiro. These later argument contain good points in favor of some of Trump’s behavior and how that could be a good thing. Steven Crowder has recently offered his 0.02 on the same subject just last night and he made some good points as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZUZ-phGTEY
Crowder asks: “Is there any President you would rather have in office in 2019 woke culture that you would rather have than Donald Trump?”, and Id have to say I wish very much I could have someone better but as neo points out that candidate doesnt now exist, which is why Im a “StuckwithTrumper” Trump had my reluctant vote last election and he has my reluctant vote in this next one, but its a bitter pill and Im wondering if the cure will become worse than the disease as we move into the future.
Anyway, that about does it for me on this thread, but if the Donald does something particularly 3D chess playing genius wise that damages rather than helps our combined cause, I’ll probably vent here, and you know what? That will be OK, because this supposed to be about winning the battle of ideas, not throwing blind support behind anyone.
Re Trump, I recall reading that Obama released his birth certificate because Trump’s questions about it were causing Democrats to wonder why Barry hadn’t.
I bet that happened because millions of rank-and-file Democrats watched his TV show regularly, and knew and trusted Trump in a way that they never would for any other Republican.
Certainly not Ted Cruz.
I simply don’t see how Cruz had any chance to win Michigan or any of the other surprises that made Trump president. Too many potential supporters would have had idea who he was, thus giving them no particular reason NOT to believe the Tsunami of lies always uncorked against non-leftists by the left.
Harry:
Here’s my advice, which you haven’t asked for.
I read most of the comments on this blog, or at least skim them quickly. I actually cannot think of a single person here who offers “blind support” of Trump. Trump is often criticized here, and that’s always been true. And even those here who really really really support him give plenty of logical and good reasons for doing so. You may not always agree with their reasoning, but it is reasoning, not “blind support.”
And when you or anyone else continually and repetitively accuse them of having blind support of Trump, people get angry at you. Which makes perfect sense.
And then you defend yourself by saying that their anger at you is evidence of the blindness of their support.
That’s not logical.
When you are logical and fair, people don’t get mad at your arguments. So I suggest you stick to that and drop this “blind support” business. There are certainly people in the world whose support of Trump seems blind, but I don’t think that’s the case here, and you probably will just continue to get insulted right back if you keep making that accusation here.
Well, I’ll be more mindful of that in the future Neo, but Im pretty certain my “blind support” allegation came after I was told to adjust my bow tie.
Well, I’ll be more mindful of that in the future Neo, but Im pretty certain my “blind support” allegation came after I was told to adjust my bow tie.
It was a stupid thing to say. Your excuse is what, you had to say it because someone compared you to George Will?
Pee wee Herman?
similar argument style
maybe that’s where the kids got it?
Harry:
I don’t just mean the actual words “blind support.” I mean things like calling people here Trump-worshipers who believe Trump plays 3-D chess (see this post on that very subject, whether Trump play’s 3-D chess, and the nearly-100 comments there, to learn what people here actually think).
And if you think that being accused of wearing a bow tie a la George Will is some sort of awful thing to say about someone online, I think you’re being oversensitive.
The first mention I can find of the bow tie thing is here, and it came after this comment of yours in which you said: “I don’t think [criticism of a Republican president or candidate] would have been nearly this bad if we hadn’t elected a near complete pig.”
I actually must say that, although I have criticized Trump many times in many ways – in particular, during the primaries when he was not yet the nominee – I don’t think I ever said anything like “a near complete pig” about him. It’s not specific and no one even knows what you really mean. It doesn’t further a discussion. In addition, by the time most people here voted for Trump, it was him or Hillary, and that’s why they did it.
So I don’t know what you’re really trying to say to people here, and I believe it came off to them as a tongue-lashing they didn’t deserve.
After that “pig” remark came the bow tie accusation, plus a lot of people explaining to you why that wasn’t so, and why any GOP candidate would have gotten a lot of severe flak from the MSM.
I’m not trying to pick on you. But I really think that you would avoid future angry responses if you don’t assume things about people here that are not in evidence.
Pee wee Herman? similar argument style maybe that’s where the kids got it?
I don’t think Harry is pulling for us.
How about calling a truce with Harry for now, and see what happens?
neo on October 3, 2019 at 1:36 pm said:
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t call Harry a troll. He’s commented a bit off and on for about a year and a half here, and is fairly consistent. He has a certain style that tends to lead to argument, but so far I don’t think he’s dissembling.
* * *
I’ve been commenting here at least that long, and didn’t recognize Harry’s name or style
It could be that infrequent commenting is a result of infrequent reading, or sticking with Neo’s post rather than also reading the comments — which is not something everyone has time to do.
However, greatly off-base comments don’t signal familiarity with the blog or the commenters, which is the appearance Harry’s comments gave (as Neo noted).
Perhaps “chiming in” a bit more often would facilitate conversation because other readers would then “know” who you are.
BTW – this post and the other one about Trump have pulled in a lot of commenters outside the usual panel. Always good to get some new perspectives!
Artfldgr on October 3, 2019 at 11:32 am said:
..
[maybe i can get another standing ovation for backing up my words again?]
* * *
I dunno — you missed FDR’s couple of affairs, and Eisenhower’s.
😉
There sure seems to be a high ratio of Ds to Rs in that list, so it’s only fair we include Ike, although AFAIK he didn’t continue after being elected president, and many of the Dems did.
For what it’s worth, I’m the guy who started the bow tie reference.
I have no regrets about that, as it was my aim to strike a nerve. I also already offered Harry a truce, The Orange Man Neutrality Treaty. I stand by that offer and will abide.
Tom Grey on October 3, 2019 at 7:40 am said:
…
(Better to ignore Harry than let him, or manju, hijack a thread).
* * *
Good points about Cruz, but I’m glad he is still in the Senate keeping them on their toes. He was my first choice also.
I don’t think either Harry or manju hijack threads so much as stimulate lively conversation.
Neo don’t allow no hijackin’ here.
Roy Nathanson on October 3, 2019 at 6:24 am said:
..Neo should feel honored that the Leftist propaganda mills have assigned such a valuable asset to her blog.
* * *
Neo informs us Harry is a long-time reader (assuming he reads the blog between posting his comments), but I am not absolutely sure that means he is not a troll as well, in which case your point is well taken.
(And if he is not, I apologize for reading too much between the pixels. Only Harry knows for sure.)
I have seen links to Neo on Instapundit and other blogs, but I don’t know how often troll farms watch for linked websites and detail watchers.
I don’t see Harry as a troll. He’s a hard-headed fellow, to be sure, but then so am I. As I read him, he just doesn’t want to be shut down because he’s got a contrary view on Trump.
Totally off topic, but you did bring it up tangentially. I apologize in advance if that is against the rules here. I discovered you from a link on Powerline. When I saw the name Neo, I immediately thought of the movie The Matrix and assumed you were a man. And as you surmised correctly in my case, I didn’t scroll to the bottom to see your picture. Lol, I am a woman as well and I’d be the last to assume you were a man because you write a political blog. P.S. I understand the need for anonymity, but are you offering Adam a bite of the forbidden fruit? ; )
Actually I doubt Manju is a paid troll either. He’s not very bright or well-informed. His participation is entirely sporadic. I’m not sure why he bothers commenting here. But if he was paid, it seems to me he would do a better, more consistent job.
Though standards in that regard may be low.
Yes, Trump’s language is course at times; but, nowadays that isn’t all that out of bounds like it used to be.
At least he didn’t call voters a basket of deplorables, or give the middle finger to his opponent like the two most recent Democratic Presidential candidates did.
So, yea, Trump can be course; but, it doesn’t bother me as much as the behavior of others in the White House.
I do think those that are “upset” or “offended” or just cry that Trump isn’t “Presidential” would find anything to be a fault with Trump. So, their complaints do not bother me. And with all the Russiagate and other fake news they have cried wolf too long for most folks to take them seriously on anything.
For the record I voted for Trump VERY reluctantly. I actually considered not voting for the first time in my life (My first vote for President was that somewhat inept peanut Farmer); but, I voted anyway for Trump more as a vote against Hillary. I was more of a anyone-but-Hillary voter.
Next time I am all in for Trump as he has delivered so much. I have my first permanent job with benefits in 10 years, bought a house (I call it my Trump house) and am saving money for the future. Did any of the previous Presidents do THAT for me? Did any of my fellow Americans vote for a President that would get Americans back to work instead of telling us “tough sh&t”?
Nope, I am all the way for Trump. And if they want signatures for allowing him to serve for more than 2 terms I will sign!
So those who want to call me a Trump worshipper or some other nonsense – go right ahead. Your name calling of others say more about you than it does about those you attack. And, I will continue to laugh at the left’s foolishness all the way to the bank.
Sergey on October 3, 2019 at 5:36 am said:
Trump’s style is just the preference of the street talk to the lawyer’s talk, which is an advantage in persuading voters. Many politicians tried fake this, but almost always they, indeed, sound fake.
* * *
Good summary of the way a lot of people have described the attraction (or, at least, non-objectionable-ness) of Trump’s style.
One of the things that helped convince me this was an “okay” style was a post by Ammo Grrrl at PowerLine, after the Hollywood tapes were revealed (I still can’t imagine who hung on to them that long, or why, and don’t remember the details).
My own friends and family don’t really use street talk of that kind; if my Dad said “damn” twice in my hearing, that was two more than I actually remember, and I had to check the dictionary for a couple of words while I was in college.
So, I relied on people with a wider experience of the world.
I can’t find that post, of course, but for those not yet acquainted with Ammo Grrrll, here is another good one
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/03/thoughts-from-the-ammo-line-212.php
“The simple fact is that if Trump was vaguely presidential he wouldn’t be President”
– Dennis Miller
Liberty Wolf
Well said! The democratic congress does not govern. They preen and pout like a bunch of teenagers and the media is worst. They make me ill and they are a waist of tour tax payer’s money. It is also important to point out that without California, Trump won the popular vote. We are not the United States of California.
I dunno — you missed FDR’s couple of affairs, and Eisenhower’s.
Eisenhower’s ‘affair’ was a posthumous claim made by his secretary, and if I’m not mistaken, she never claimed it had a sexual component. Merle Miller in Plain Speaking put into Harry Truman’s mouth a claim that Eisenhower had asked his approval to divorce Mamie which Truman refused to grant, but I don’t think there’s any parallel documentation of any such request and Miller’s not the most trustworthy witness. Mamie’s biographer doesn’t declare one way or another, just reports that Mamie didn’t care for Kay Summersby and didn’t like the amount of time she spent around Mamie’s husband. John Eisenhower said publicly and explicitly that the family pondered Summersby’s claim and decided it was self-aggrandizing fabulism. N.B. John Eisenhower was employed on his father’s staff.
FDR had multiple mistresses and one of his daughters was implicated in re-introducing one of them into his circle at the end of his life, to her mother’s consternation. The Roosevelts were horrible at family life. Their five children had 19 marriages between them. I think only one of them was married fewer than 3x, and they were all divorced at least once.
Aesop,
Love your taste in feisty Grrrl Pundits! :>))
…….
ETA: Wow, look at that! EDIT’s come by!