Epstein, suicide, murder, conspiracy
People who believe they know what happened to Epstein based on the conflicting and shaky information we’ve gotten so far are mistaken, although of course at least one group of them is probably right. We just don’t know which group it is.
Murdered by the right? Murdered by the left? Murdered by the shadowy cabal that controls the universe? Suicide through the negligence of the prison system? Suicide allowed “accidentally on purpose” by the corruption of the prison system? In the Witness Protection Program?
Or perhaps behind that curtain in Oz?
My personal opinion, which is merely one possibility of many, is “suicide through the negligence of the prison system.” Some people find that to be the very least likely of all the choices. I consider it the leading one, but only slightly.
That may be because I tend to follow Hanlon’s razor, which goes this way: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” Or incompetence. Or bureaucratic disorganization.
However, Epstein’s death is one of those things that lends itself to conspiracy theories of all stripes. And one of those theories may indeed be correct. But I don’t actually think we’ll ever know, and I also predict that these theories will flourish for decades. The situation is just that suspicious and disturbing, and Epstein’s death is indeed convenient for many people.
One thing I’d like to clarify is that the term “suicide watch” (which pretty much everyone agrees Epstein should have been on) is not a single thing. There are many degrees of watch, and the most effective are the most Draconian and the least likely to be implemented for very long. The more bearable ones are nowhere near as effective. Here’s a description:
In many cases, any dangerous items will be removed from the area, such as sharp objects and some furniture, or they may be placed in a special padded cell, which has nothing outcropping from the walls (e.g., a clothes hook or door closing bracket) to provide a place for a ligature to be attached, and with only a drain-grill on the floor. They may be stripped of anything with which they might hurt themselves or use as a noose, including shoelaces, belts, neckties, bras, shoes, socks, suspenders and bed sheets. In extreme cases the inmate may be undressed entirely.
In even more extreme cases, inmates may be placed in “therapeutic restraints”, a four- or five-point restraint system. The inmate is placed on their back on a mattress. Their arms and legs are tied down and a belt is placed across the chest. In a five-point system the head is also restrained. An inmate is allowed a range of movement every two hours, when one limb is released and they are allowed to move it for a short period. They are then restrained again, proceeding to the next limb. This process is repeated until all areas restrained have been moved. This process usually continues in eight-hour shifts, and the inmate has a face-to-face encounter with a mental health professional at least once in each eight-hour interval. This cannot continue for more than 16 consecutive hours. The inmate is continually watched by staff during this time.
In the most extreme cases of self-harm, only when all other avenues have not worked or are impracticable,[citation needed] “chemical restraint” drugs may be used to sedate the inmate. In order for a facility to administer a chemical restraint, it must have the approval/recommendation of a licensed mental health professional, the facility warden, and a court order.
People who are determined to kill themselves will do so unless under those very stringent conditions.
But why wasn’t Epstein on even the more lenient type of suicide watch? That’s one of the things that needs to be addressed. Hindsight is 20/20, but even foresight would dictate some sort of longer suicide watch than was ever implemented.
Another thing I want to mention is the oft-stated idea that Epstein provided underage girls for sex with many prominent men. This is repeated regularly as though it is a given. It is not. Epstein’s proven crimes are that Epstein recruited and paid underage girls for various sex services to Epstein, and recorded these things with hidden cameras.
The rest—all the other men who are alleged to have been clients of Epstein’s in this repeated and lengthy program of sexual exploitation of minors—involve allegations only, and apparently most (or perhaps all?–it’s a bit hard to sort out) of the allegations are by two victims who filed civil suits.
You can read about that here. It’s very complex, but suffice to say that none of this has been proven and that some of the men named by the women, as well as a women who dated Epstein and supposedly helped him with the “business,” strongly deny the claims. And as far as I know there is absolutely no independent evidence of these people’s involvement in the illegal sexual activities in which Epstein himself definitely engaged.
The perception that these particular accusers of enormous numbers of the rich and famous were telling the truth was (and still is) helped along by a number of factors: the tabloid and/or politically-motivated press and internet and the natural tendency of many people to believe in conspiracies by the rich and powerful. In addition, the proven fact of Epstein’s guilt in his own exploitative sexual activities lends itself to the idea of tremendous and widespread corruption of a similar nature at the highest ranks. But Epstein knew a lot of famous people; he was a powerful guy (or someone who certainly seemed powerful) and one with a wealthy and sociable lifestyle, and there were a lot of more obvious and clear perks to knowing him than sexual relations with minors for pay.
I’m always skeptical of the sort of allegations featured in this case about the additional people, until I see the evidence. So I remain skeptical here, as well. But that could change and is certainly not set in stone.
My current theory remains: suicide, and a negligent prison administration. And a lot of false allegations about a lot of people other than Epstein. But that theory of mine is a weak leader rather than a very strong one.
One thing I will add is that this story makes me feel weary and almost ill. Whatever happened, it’s sordid and disturbing. Which do you prefer, a dangerous and enormous conspiracy or a dangerous incompetence? Take your pick.
[NOTE: I fully expect most people to find me way too naive here. But actually, I am highly skeptical—even of conspiracies. That does not mean they don’t exist. But my threshold is probably higher for believing in them than that of most people.]
Why not both? (Stupidity and malice.)
Stupidity is usually the default theory except that the governing class has gone beyond mere stupidity, over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
Without consequence.
This man Epstein was their procurement creature and knew a lot of horrible dirty secrets. He had to go.
One could well argue that, based on what is known about the repulsive Epstein’s character, he lacked the courage to take his own life and, furthermore, that such a narcissistic sociopath with a massive sense of entitlement would be unlikely to commit suicide. The astonishing negligence surrounding the most important inmate in the nation’s most important federal holding facility requires more than cursory explanation, nor has there been any information thus far divulged concerning the means by which suicide might have been effected in such a cell (what was used for the noose, what was there to hang from, etc.)
One thing I’m pondering is what sort of technological surveillance measures will be developed in the wake of this case.
Consider: they’re already working on coupling video cameras with artificial intelligence to read people’s intentions. Is this person thinking of shoplifting? Is that person moving toward a restricted area?
Maybe a video feed can be programmed to trigger on “is this inmate doing something that looks like trying to commit suicide?” An alarm sounds, and a guard looks in by video or walks up to the cell door to take a look. If there’s nothing wrong, he turns of the alarm and goes back to his other duties (or back to sleep).
And of course, an ankle monitor could be designed to monitor a wearer’s pulse. One alarm if the heart rate is changing in a way that correlates with misbehavior; another if the heart slows down or stops.
j e:
Narcissistic psychopaths can muster the will to kill themselves when their narcissistic world tumbles down. I think Epstein was a prime candidate for suicide.
WSJ: ‘Serious Irregularities’ at Federal Jail Where Jeffrey Epstein Died, Barr Says
“Epstein-Barr” has gone viral!
/obscure?
The problem of sexual slavery of children is far more prevalent than any of us suspected, and it is condoned in high places.
If you did not see the interview of Jaco Booyens by Mark Levin on “Life, Liberty and Levin” yesterday, you MUST catch the rerun on Fox News next Saturday. It is powerful and disturbing.
For the Fox News story, see this link
https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-trafficking-leader-praises-ice-trump
Epstein is only a symptom of this cancer.
This from today’s WSJ’s front page,
I think the Journal is a least a little above average in the integrity of its reportage, in today’s world, but that isn’t saying much.
Why would his attorney’s ask for this? Let the conjectures fly.
Some reports are now saying that, while there were surveillance cameras, they were focused on the cell door to see if someone might have entered or left the cell, but not on what was going on inside the cell itself.
If this wasn’t a hit, it certainly seems like an all around festival of incompetence.
When he was arrested, all of us cynics said he would probably be offed. Then he was. Guards on overtime means specific guards were in place. Cellmate transferred. Camera malfunction. What are the odds of all of these things happening randomly? I suggest Occams razor instead. Respectfully.
I tend to agree with Neo, but only marginally. Since her own commitment to a theory is marginal, that means we don’t know. Both a dangerous conspiracy and dangerous incompetence are discouraging options. What’s really lost is one more layer of trust in our institutions and the people who run them.
I’d readily believe he killed himself if someone could explain to me how he did it. From what I’ve heard, his cell was designed specifically to make it virtually impossible for anyone to hang themselves, or to commit suicide in any other way. The only other possibility I can think of is that one of his lawyers was able to smuggle poison to him. Poison might also explain this curious difficulty in identifying how he died.
But actually, I am highly skeptical—even of conspiracies.
neo: Your Hanlon quote suggests, if not demands, that you be less skeptical of conspiracies:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Oops. Make that:
Your Hanlon quote suggests, if not demands, that you be more skeptical of conspiracies.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Hanlon’s Razor is a rule of thumb. Those are great for quick-and-dirty thinking, which is what most of us are doing most of the time, but they aren’t divine laws or mathematical axioms.
There is a ton of wiggle-room in the word, “adequately.” Furthermore, there is no guarantee, whatsoever, that one won’t end up wrong with Hanlon’s Razor.
“Epstein-Barr has gone viral!”
Oooh, that hurts…
Neo, I can imagine circumstances that would result in Epstein offing himself, with no need for help (or even encouragement) from anyone. For example, if he, in desperation, pulled every card he’s got, up to and including “get me out of here, or I’ll spill the beans on everyone I know!” — and was met with silence, indicating that he truly has lost all the power AND freedom he ever had, and would never get back again… yes, I could see this result.
I have no idea how likely this is, compared with the possibility of a hit.
I will say that the situation stinks to high heaven… and I am not confident that we, the public, will get all the answers. I will also say that, while it is possible that justice has been served, and that the only one who really deserved to get punished in all this has taken care of it himself, that’s not the way I’d bet… because that’s usually not the way it works out.
Put it a different way. How much money would this hit have required? (Add it all up — payment to get the suicide-watch lifted, and to get Epstein’s lawyers to say it was at his request; payment to get prison guards to look the other way; payment to kill Epstein and make it look like a suicide; payment to silence anyone who might be able to prove otherwise. Call it ten million dollars. No, make that twenty million.) Now remember who the people are, whom Epstein supposedly could implicate, and think about how much money they could offer, if they wanted it badly enough. For many of them, twenty million dollars would never be missed.
As I said, by appearances alone, this stinks.
I recently read an article on the Tanner scale.
Based on that I believe Epstein was actually a Hebephilia. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia
The media in general does a disservice to us by failing to use the correct terms.
Neo,
I’m with you on the narcissistic psychopath idea. Remember that they found loads of evidence in his condo. This could be his way of saying “I’m smarter than you.” He could have been planning this, including what to say to the shrinks, since the day he was arrested.
Et tu, Bill Richardson ?
I don’t find you naive at all. The incompetence explanation is, by far, the best one.
Epstein represents the canary in the coal mine. His life and his death are warnings to us.
I’m not certain what constitutes the coal mine.
@neo:The rest—all the other men who are alleged to have been clients of Epstein’s in this repeated and lengthy program of sexual exploitation of minors—involve allegations only, and apparently most (or perhaps all?–it’s a bit hard to sort out) of the allegations are by two victims who filed civil suits.
I’m glad someone else noticed it. I kept seeing only one name, the articles I’d read, and there isn’t any corroboration and very little detail.
I’ve spent the almost 3 years watching a conspiracy to unseat a legally elected president based on invented evidence and shouting lies by the majority of the news media and agents of the Federal Law Enforcement agency…with nary a opposing voice by said media…
Oh yeah…and the existence of a Shadow Government (known now as the Deep State) exposed for all to see…
My threshold for believing in conspiracies has been lowered considerably.
It is now being reported that 6 ft. tall Epstein hung himself by anchoring a sheet on the top bunk in his cell, wrapping it around his throat, then, leaning forward.
Does this seem like it is even possible to commit suicide in this way?
Wouldn’t you lose consciousness, but not kill yourself, if you leaned forward in this manner?
Isn’t this sort of like trying to kill yourself by holding your breath?
Snow on Pine — here’s how Robin Williams did it: “[His] assistant eventually managed to open the door and found Williams clothed, in a seated position and ‘with a belt secured around his neck, with the other end of the belt wedged between the clothes closet door and the door frame,’ [the Marin County sheriff] said. ‘His right shoulder area was touching the door, with his body perpendicular to the door and slightly suspended’.”
It’s not the Cabal that controls the universe. Should not mix and match your Marvel universes, Neo.
The Universe is only One Verse. The Multiverse is controlled by the Sons of God.
Wouldn’t you lose consciousness, but not kill yourself, if you leaned forward in this manner?
It would only constrict the frontal wind pipe. If wind pipe snaps or becomes bloated due to tissue inflammation, then he might suffocate unconsciously, but usually his muscles will drop due to oxygen deprivation as his brain shuts off non essential functions due to wind pipe constriction.
Blood type constriction from the side of the necks, via rear naked choke, and a “neck hanging cord” that constricts boths ides of the neck, is generally more efficient and full proof. Or rather, idiot proof.
That’s because the hang man’s knot is theoretically tied in such a way that the heavier the weight, the more it constricts. This constriction is full 360. While it does shut off the wind pipe, and if the person does not weigh much or has a weird angle to the tree, or the rope is too thick, the person may still faint and die of slow strangulation rather than Blood Restriction.
Well, I suppose both instances could happen at the same time. LYnch mobs weren’t exactly pros.
Here is a comment written by a commenter at Bookworm room on the Clinton… things.
I haven’t checked them but I have heard from my other sources that such shenanigans were rather consistent with the Clinton Clan’s modus operandus.
Belisarius NeoWayland • a day ago • edited
I figured, but I don’t read her. Nonetheless, a partial going-over:
I don’t even think Foster’s the most interesting on the list. I find Mary Mahoney, (died July, 1997) more interesting, she was murdered in a Starbucks in Georgetown right after she had agreed to testify to sexual harassment in the white house.
Paul Tulley (September, 1992) democrat national committee political adviser, found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock.
James MacDougal, convicted Whitewater partner and lined up to be a witness for Starr, had a convenient heart attack in his solitary confinement cell before Starr could depose him.
Ed Willey, Clinton fundraiser, found dead deep in the VA woods of a gunshot wound to the back of the head. Ruled a suicide. (Ever hear of anyone committing suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head?) That was November 1993. He died the same day his wife claimed Clinton groped her.
Jerry Parks, head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team was gunned down in his car in a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. His son claimed he was building a dossier. Shortly after his death his house was mysteriously broken into, and the files vanished.
Kathey Ferguson, ex-wife of Arkansas trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead of a gunshot wound to the back of her head in May, 1994. That one was ruled a suicide too, even though she was found in the presence of several packed bags waiting by the front door – she evidently decided not to go. She was a cooperating witness in the Paula Jones matter, who didn’t live to testify. (Danny Ferguson, her ex, was a co-defendant with Clinton in the Jones lawsuit.)
Bill Shelton, Arkansas trooper and fiance of Kathy Ferguson was quite critical of that suicide verdict re: Kathy. He was found shot to death in June, 1994.
Suzanne Coleman reportedly had an affair with Clinton. Died of a gunshot wound – ruled a suicide. She was pregnant at the time of death.
Danny Casolaro, investigative reporter, looking into the Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He apparently decided to slit his wrists in the middle of his investigation.
Paul Wilcher, attorney investigating Mena with Casolaro, found dead on a toilet in his DC apartment June 22, 1993. He had delivered his preliminary report to Janet Reno not quite three weeks earlier.
Jon Parnell Walker,Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp., took a high dive from his Arlington, VA apartment balcony on August 15, 1993.
Barbara Wise, Commerce Department staffer, worked closely with Ron Brown and Jon Huang. Cause of death officially unknown. Her bruised, nude, and beaten body was found locked in her office at Commerce November 29, 1996.
Stanley Huggins, Madison Guaranty investigator, also apparently committed suicide, and his report was never released.
Hershell Friday, attorney and Clinton fundraiser died March 1, 1994, when his private plane fucking exploded.
Kevin Ives and Don Henry, the “boys on the track.” May have known more about Mena than was healthy – they apparently fell asleep, on railroad tracks (I nap on the railroad tracks all the time, don’t you? What’s more comfortable than sleeping on railroad tracks?) Run over by a train. They were only the first and most well known of several who died in the Mena matter before it got to a grand jury.
I’ve known – and know – several people who own and fly private planes. Never knew anyone who crashed. C. Victor Raiser II, Clinton fundraiser, died when he crashed in July, 1992. Chales Meissner, Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave special clearance to Jon Huang managed to crash his plane. Dr. Stanley Heard, who personally treated Clinton’s mother, brother, and stepfather died, along with attorney Steve Dickson when they crashed.
James Milan, who apparently knew something about the boys on the track – like, they were killed and then put on the tracks – was found decapitated. The coroner hilariously ruled he died of natural causes. I guess when your head’s cut off it’s pretty natural to die, yeah.Can’t argue with that.
Another potential testifier in the boys on the track case, Keith McCaskle, was found stabbed to death in 1988. He’d been stabbed 113 times. There were five others who had information about the boys on the track who were shot (4 of them), and one motorcycle crash.
That’s a few, There are more. Twelve, a round dozen, of Clinton’s bodyguards have found their way to untimely deaths.
I impute nothing. I simply note that the Clinton’s are singularly favored by fortune. Anytime anyone might have something to say about them, bad things seem to happen.
I note that the “sheets” that Epstein used to hang himself with were supposed to be made of paper-mache and, thus, supposedly not strong enough to hang yourself with.
Ymarsakar:
I have answered your questions many times, and taken a lot of time to explain myself. I refer you to my previous answers. You can find one of them here.
I am not a state, deep or otherwise, nor am I a forum such as Facebook or Twitter that basically is a common carrier. This is a blog–my blog. It’s a personal instrument of expression. I choose to have a comments section. I like to see comments. I welcome commenters. I’ve welcomed you here for over a decade. You have an interesting mind and have always looked at things in an unusual way, although there have been many times I disagree with you. However, in the last couple of years (I don’t really know when it started) you have been veering off in another direction, into repetitive comments that are usually off-topic for the post at hand.
Now I will cut and paste a portion of what I wrote in that previous comment to you from a month ago, the one I linked to above:
Conspiracy theories require a couple of items:
Big events must have big causes. A giant cannot be seen to be brought down by a pissant. A lone nutcase can shoot a homeless man nobody ever heard of. Sad. But it won’t wash when the deceased is Martin Luther King, Jr. Has to be a Big Deal, even if there’s no evidence for it. Dots will be invented.
Somebody must gain. That’s why there are so many wacky ideas about who gained by the Las Vegas shooting. Has to be somebody.
In the instant case, we have a Big Event and thus a Big Cause. The Big Cause is all the Big Guys who need Epstein dead.
So that wraps it up.
But we can ask ourselves, what were the Big Guys thinking,
say, last week? Were they thinking it would be handy if Epstein died of something or other? Likely. Are these the types of people who can make things happen? One or two, at least.
What’s to stop them? Fear of getting caught, which by this time in their lives they probably have learned doesn’t happen to them. Scruples–hard sell. Practical matters….maybe, maybe not.
For a conspiracy theorist, the question would be, why on earth not.
Neo, you censoring conspiracies you don’t like people to see or hear about, on a post about Epstein conspiracies, is what should really trouble you.
This is no longer a matter of “too often” or “too much like pron or scam ad” excuses you had before. You have one more left, including the last two times.
My personal opinion, which is merely one possibility of many, is “suicide through the negligence of the prison system.” Some people find that to be the very least likely of all the choices. I consider it the leading one, but only slightly.
Your personal opinion is that theories about Epstein you like is allowed. Theories about Epstein you don’t like, you ban because you are a private owner.
(1) Are obscene.
(2) Contain what I consider over-the-top insults.
(3) Are troll-like in nature (and I’ve written posts on my definition of that, which you are free to read).
The rest of the reasons on this list are more relevant to your case (the first three above were not).
(4) Are off-topic.
(5) Are repetitive.
(6) Are too long.
1: Nope.
2: Nope
3: Nope
4: Nope
5: Nope
6: Nope
Any other excuses that don’t apply to your action here?
Now I will cut and paste a portion of what I wrote in that previous comment to you from a month ago, the one I linked to above:
How about you cut and paste the portion of the comment you keep disappearing from view instead? If your excuses and reasons for private censorship actually applied to it, it would be obvious, but it doesn’t, so why do you keep bringing the irrelevant reasons up from the past.
A reason for Epstein’s situation is off topic here? Ok, that seems to make sense… not to me though.
Yammer:
Here is an hint: this is not your blog. You are a guest here. Neo owes you nothing, not even the time of day. Don’t be a pest.
Snow on Pine:
It is possible to commit suicide that way. One must have tremendous determination, though.
Recall that Virginia Woolf committed suicide by walking into a river with stones in her pockets and drowning herself. What sort of willpower does that take?
Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
That said, as you know, I have been very patient with you over the years….I of course also reserve the right to ban any commenter, although I have been quite explicit in saying I would be very reluctant to ban you and hope and trust it will not come to that.
That is not my concern, Neo. I raised the issue of why you were once again blocking one of my comments from showing, even though it was on topic on the last Epstein thread. Then you quote some old answer you gave on the previous cases, about Flat Earth Theory. Are you somehow, obsessed with that issue?
Cause the obsession you have is from your psychological profile, not moi. And when it spreads to Epstein conspiracies, which many people are talking about, including you, I have to once again point out that there’s something strange about a person who refuses to believe in conspiracy theories, going out of their way to block certain conspiracy theories from being seen or talked about. Even if you aren’t interested, why should that matter to you? Gatekeeping is not just a Deep State, government, or corporate media problem.
There are plenty of posts people aren’t interested in here, and they even go out of their way to tell you, but that is not my concern.
0m
Can you not pester me for once in your mortal life?
Not that it matters given how long I am used to it.
Snow on Pine:
Where did you get that paper mache idea from?
If a person is on suicide watch, they are sometimes given paper garments and no sheets. But Epstein was not on suicide watch.
We will never know the details of Epstein’s death (if he really is dead show me the body and autopsy report). Down the rabbit hole it goes.
Neo–So the scenario would be Epstein is taken off suicide watch, and the prison authorities come into his cell and say, “here ya go, we’re taking away all of the items designed to make it harder for you to kill yourself, and we’re replacing them with items that make is easier for you to kill yourself.”
“Here, gimme those paper clothes and bed sheets, here are some nice comfy cotton ones instead.”
Snow on Pine:
He was on suicide watch for a while, but I have seen nothing that describes what sort or suicide watch. If you read the link to Wiki, you would see there are many degrees and types.
Some just involved periodic checks, and the prisoner retains regular sheets. Some are much more strict. We so far don’t know what he had and didn’t have on suicide watch. We merely know he was on it and then he was taken off it. This happens all the time in prison.
Obviously, he should have been treated differently and guarded better.
Trace Gallagher at Fox News says that Epstein claimed he was assaulted on July 23, and that his attys. requested he be taken off suicide watch. The autopsy exam is finished and the report is waiting on more information. The ME says that it appears to be a suicide at this point. A bed sheet was used.
Dr. Marc Siegel who has worked with the Manhattan MCC (jail) claimed that in the general prison population, suicide is the leading cause of death, at 1/3 of all deaths (non-natural deaths?). However, according to Siegel, the Manhattan MCC has had exactly one suicide in 40 years. That’s a vanishingly small statistic.
I’ve definitely warmed up to this really being a suicide, but feel that it was likely to have been facilitated by intentional dereliction of duty by one or more jail officers/officials. I’ve also seen a media claim that Epstein’s lawyers themselves have lawyered up with criminal defense attys.
Ymarsakar:
I reiterated that old comment of mine because it was not limited to flat earth theory. If you read it, you know that. So why say it was? And on this thread I eliminated parts that did have to do with flat earth theory, because they weren’t relevant to this thread, and I left the parts that indicated my explanations apply to many more topics than flat earth theory.
To suggest I “censored” those things is absurd. I posted a link to the longer comment, and anyone is free to read it. I made it clear then and now my remarks were absolutely not limited to flat earth theory. I emphasized flat earth theory a month ago because that was what you were talking about over and over and over at the time.
I repeat:
I am not the least bit obsessed with flat earth theory. Or any of these theories you or anyone else here professes. If you don’t understand the point I’m making (and have made before), then I don’t know how to explain it any better.
And I am absolutely the gatekeeper here, and I am not reluctant to say that. I am not the gatekeeper of forums like Twitter or Facebook, nor do I hold this blog out to be anything like those places in its intent or its form. I have explained all of this at some length already, and not just to you—to other commenters, too, with whom there have been similar issues. These have not always been public discussions, either, so you have not necessarily been aware of them.
And by the way, there were several parts of that comment of yours that made me delete it. The main one was this: “There are Fusion center technologies that can mind jack someone from a distance using frequency vibration technology (not released to your civilians).”
TommyJay:
I agree it seems like suicide with tremendous contributory negligence.
“Obviously, he should have been treated differently and guarded better.”
Ok, we have a high profile federal prisoner, with supposedly strong connections to powerful people, including a past POTUS. So which federal person/persons decided he should be treated differently? The questions are endless. We will never know, down the rabbit hole, where Humpty Dumpty determines a word means exactly what he decides it means.
As noted above, we have witnessed an actual conspiracy to defame a duly elected president and drive him from office, by agents of the fbi, cia, etc. All bets are off. I had little trust in the feds, but now my trust if less than zero. My give a damn is busted.
Y,
You are a bright fellow, like artfldgr, who seems to never realize when you have gone too far. This is this neo’s blog. She determines who and what is allowed. Show a tiny bit of modesty, it does a body good.
Goodnight all. Tomorrow we go on a 5 day grandchildren tour. Then 2 weeks hiking in the Wind River range in Wyoming. No cell reception, no wifi. Just the scent of evergreens, hungry trout in mountain lakes, hungry large mammals, and high altitude wild flowers. Taking my 357 should we run into puma. Chilly nights and hot days. Life is good. Wyoming mountain high. The skies are not cloudy all day.
A hard-left person on Facebook (who once was an editor at the LA Times) has posted vehemently that anyone who says it’s not suicide, end of story, is aligned with those who said 9/11 was an inside job, and so on. I tend very much to be someone believes in “Wait and see.” In this case I just don’t think uninformed speculation is worthwhile.
I never knew anything about Epstein before fairly recently. It was interesting, however, that Acosta testified that his light sentencing of him was due to input from the intelligence sector — I haven’t seen that anywhere explained.
You can be quite flawed and be some kind of intelligence asset, but such labels as “psychopathic narcissist” or the like seem wildly overbroad and unfounded.
All kinds of heinous crime perpetrators manage to live out their lives in prison. It seems just as likely as Epstein wanting so badly to die he might have been looking forward to writing one hell of a salacious memoir which would be an instant #1 bestseller.
Who knows?
This reminds me of Jack Ruby. No matter how thoroughly suicide is proved and murder eliminated, the event is so improbable that it will generate conspiracy theories for decades. Supposedly the feds are going to indict his procurer, Gisellesomething Maxwell. If they do, and she dies while in custody, it’s a conspiracy, no doubt.
wrt Ruby: Oswald shooting JFK all by his lonesome is explainable, logistically possible, and the guy was a nutcase with a suggestive background. So ,no problem not having a conspiracy theory.
Then comes Ruby….
Similarly…Epstein is the second suicide in forty years and…just happens to be the one guy a lot of Big Shooters would want dead. One or the other….Both?
Not taking sides here. But when something has the markers of a conspiracy, we should give the theorists a bit of space.
Then comes Ruby….
What’s the significance of that? Jack Ruby was an impetuous and sentimental man who made his living operating skeevy nightclubs.
George Parry, writing at the American Spectator, fills in my idea about accidental asphyxiation. https://spectator.org/the-convenient-death-of-jeffrey-epstein/
Presumably the DOJ is going to examine the financial records of anyone working at the jail, and their families and associates. If nothing surfaces there, or any other evidence to support the idea of murder, then the accidental death, rather than intentional suicide, might be the answer.
“Another thing I want to mention is the oft-stated idea that Epstein provided underage girls (and/or “others”?) for sex with many prominent men”(and/or others?).
Also, that feeling one gets when watching live news coverage report of an unfortunate airplane crashing into the world trade center, against all odds, for innumerable reasons, yet still “possible”. Then seeing the second plane impact, square-on, in real time.
History, series of events, “important” parties of the known “above the law” sphere…
Even Vegas doesn’t bother to lay THOSE kind of “odds”.
The media hasn’t helped at all. Conspiracy theories, for or against, are good for clicks and potentially relevant info has been parceled out via various sources to various outlets. Makes it look like a cover up, for prison admin … or otherwise.
Art Deco
Ruby’s a matter of probability. Lots of people were upset and many would have entertained killing Oswald. That’s a given.
The issue is how Ruby came to be at the police station at the exact time of the, perhaps, two minutes’ walk from the facility to the transport.
No reports have him hanging around awaiting his chance. Variously, it’s that the normal course of his varied business days brought him there….just at the instant.
I take no sides here, but I do give conspiracy theorists some space.
In other cases, after the event, Authority can usually be counted up to step on their necktie, providing even more fodder.
For example, after the 1985 crash at Gander which killed 250 soldiers, some moron in DC wanted the records sealed for seventy years. It doesn’t matter if that was stopped cold before lunch. It’s out there and the observation, “conveeenient” can still be heard.
That was late in the year when Canadian security had missed a bomb on the Air India 747 which blew up and killed maybe 350. So, when the Canadian Air Safety Board put it down to icing, everybody was relieved. But it was five on the board for icing, four for a possible bomb.
After TWA 800 blew up, Authority beclowned itself by coming up with three different, equally implausible reasons for the explosive residue. For a chemist in the field, one of them might have seemed perfectly reasonable, but not for laymen. But we had three to choose from. And the people who claimed to have seen a streak of light going up from the ocean…that was an optical illusion which happens when you see a flaming aircraft falling down. Nothing to it.
My point is that conspiracy theories are not often built out of nothing, even if they are a combination of the explicable, the irrelevant, and the errors of Authority.
The Las Vegas shooter could have done what he did all by himself. It’s logistically possible. Easily, even. Don’t need a conspiracy. But, a week and a half later his Reno home was burgled. While being watched by Reno police. Who, when alerted by a neighbor, investigated and found nothing missing and nothing damaged.
Epstein is the last person in the world MCC would want to suicide in their custody. Yet it appears the protocols for his situation were pretty lax, even if followed. Combine it with the fact that his death is likely extraordinarily useful for a number of Big Shots. I take no sides here, only point out that probability is not on the side of an unassisted suicide enabled by normal jail procedures.
Neo. I hadn’t heard that Woolf committed suicide in that fashion. There’s an issue with regard to hanging, though. If done right, once you start, you can’t reverse the process. Nothing to hang on to, to push off from, etc. If done wrong, it’s so horribly painful that you’d be likely to stop it. Suicides work best when the act is not physically painful–although frightening possibly–but irreversible once started. Guns, jumps, etc.
Here is the problem with all conspiracies… Operational security problems are a geometric function of the number of people involved. In the simplest case, a conspiracy involving two persons, if the secret gets out and I know it wasn’t me, than by elimination, it was you. Add one more person and you can never be certain. Now consider a conspiracy involving dozens… or hundreds… Logic should inform you of how improbable it is.
In this case, to murder Epstein, would require the involvement of several individuals. Add to that that prison guards are not hired for their intelligence and imagination. So, I’m with Neo on this one.
This is why I come here: this is a blog for adults who want to think things through, rather than convulse and screech.
The issue is how Ruby came to be at the police station at the exact time of the, perhaps, two minutes’ walk from the facility to the transport. No reports have him hanging around awaiting his chance.
He went to buy money orders. He’s beloved dog was waiting for him in the car. This cigar is just a cigar.
After seeing the facts that have been reported in the last day, the most charitable statement I can make about the apparent instutitional incompetence is
Benign Neglect
Why take a position at all, especially initially, given the dearth of information? All we got initially was the official report that he suicided. People were understandably dubious given the history of this case and the allegations involving powerful people. Why take a position when the information is being parcelled out as it has been, one or two new revelations per day? Here you go, chew on that for a newscycle or so and we’ll get back to you. Once you take a position you are more likely to continue to back that position because you’ve got reputational investment. So until we get a full report, evidence-based and from a credible source, why take a position?
I’d like to believe that the government tells me the truth but there have been too many “mistakes” (lies) for that to be sound decisionmaking. When the government is actively creating and promoting wacky conspiracy theories to further its own ends (grievance mongering, climate science fiction, Russian collusion, white supremacy Trumpster army), it loses standing to call out other wacky conspiracy theories.
Art Deco. Those are the reports. He was buying a money order. I’m not disputing that. I’m suggesting that buying a money order at the location at that exact time is either a highly improbable coincidence, or the fix was in.
The first is, strictly speaking, possible. But it’s like multiplying fractions. The chance of his needing a money order that day is, say, one in five. The chance of his being there at that exact moment is, say, one in twenty. So now we’re at one in a hundred. The chance that he found out what was happening ten minutes away with, we presume, as little fuss as possible is unknowable, but if it’s one in ten, the total is one in a thousand.
Compared to that, believing the fix was in is easier. As I say, I take no sides except to make the case conspiracy theorists may not wash as often as some would like, but they’re provided with plenty of material for their wrong headedness.
And as for the shock! and horror! that Epstein and his friends/clientele wanted teenage girls, well, that’s what’s in demand in the escort biz. I got to know a high level retired Hollywood pimp and in that world, where some girls won’t show up unless there’s many thousands of dollars involved, 24-25 is most likely too old.
This individual said he didn’t work with girls under 18. He preferred college girls who would get into and out of the business within 2 or 3 years. The clients were people you’ve heard of as well as very rich older men in LA. Younger was always better, and the clients constantly wanted new girls, novelty, someone fresh.
I don’t think this level of business is really going to get exposed. Especially now that Epstein’s case is more or less closed. But we’ll see,
Richard Aubrey; Art Deco:
One of the many troubles with most conspiracy theories is that adherents pick and choose certain elements of the situation to make more conventional and less conspiratorial explanations seem implausible. But the bigger picture and all the facts make the truth more clear. Regarding Ruby, it is fully explained and the conspiracy theories simply do not fit the facts. But usually all the facts are not known—or are not mentioned—by those believing in or promoting such theories. I wrote many posts on the subject, and although they all focused on Oswald rather than Ruby, the same arguments apply to the evidence that Ruby’s presence at the transfer scene was accidental and that he acted alone. See this post as well as this one.
neo. I followed your arguments on JFK and find them pretty good. I’m making the point that one of them required an item of low probability–Ruby being where he was at the time he was–which lends itself to conspiracy theories. To deal with the Ruby issue would actually require demonstrating that the constrictions of his life–time available, distance, who he banked with–do you need an account or can you just pop into any bank if you have cash–what else he had going on that day could only have put him there, then. He could not have been anyplace else.
Talked to a DEA agent years ago who said, working in Florida and the Gulf Coast, a third shift deputy might be offered $5k in cash to be on the other side of the county between midnight and four a.m. It doesn’t take a lot of people to be in this, if the whole thing is independent of dispatch and command.
Having sleeper agents, in a sense, scattered around just in case. So one of your guys gets a sack of Whoppers while awaiting trial. No problem, nobody cares, but somebody’s getting too far in, cumulatively. And then…why don’t you ease up on our buddy Jeff. Cut him some slack. Don’t disturb his slumber.
Doesn’t have to come through any number of command layers. Just a guy one step up from actually doing the work who makes a couple of minor changes which don’t even need to be recorded.
Then, when something huge comes down, he’s scared to death. He will keep his mouth shut. And his contact is somebody far outside the world of corrections and police. He’s not going to tell anybody. And his boss is…one of Epstein’s more prominent clients. He’s not going to tell.
It doesn’t need to be all that complicated. Of course, who would be cultivating minor sleepers here and there just in case?
I’m not saying it was a conspiracy. I’m saying conspiracy theories flourish on the probable, which, historically, has included conspiracies.
Richard Saunders:
I wasn’t meaning to indicate that you subscribed to conspiracy theories about it. My point, however is that people who do subscribe to the ones about the JFK’s killing (and Ruby’s role) do not actually know the facts. I am preparing a new post on this right now. To be continued…
I’m suggesting that buying a money order at the location at that exact time is either a highly improbable coincidence, or the fix was in.
I buy a money order. I’m in line at the post office. It takes three minutes. The probability I will be there during any given three minute interval on that day. is about 0.6%. By your logic, the presence of any individual you could name (bar those employed at the station or journalists covering the event) is ‘suspicious’.
I have no clue why some Man From U.N.C.L.E-type secret agency would employ someone as erratic and garrulous as Jack Ruby as a ‘sleeper agent’. Or why a 51 year old man (who would have had a life expectancy of about 22 years at that time) would coldly elect to spend those years in prison at the behest of whomever. (Ruby was diagnosed with lung cancer shortly thereafter, but he did not know he was a terminal patient when went to the P.O. that day). But, again, ’tis not my trade.
Art Deco; Richard Saunders:
The probability that a particular individual will be born—the union of that egg and that sperm—is near zero.
And yet here we each are.
So the question being asked—will this particular person be born?—is the wrong one. And most of the questions asked by JFK conspiracy theorists are the wrong ones, as well.
Neo — I wasn’t saying that Ruby’s shooting of Oswald was the result of a conspiracy. I agree that it was happenstance. What I said was, the improbability of Ruby’s appearing at that moment and shooting Oswald is so great that it gave rise to decades of conspiracy theories, as will Epstein’s death.
Richard Saunders. Exactly. Sometimes reality is so improbable that the saying which ends, “and tell me it’s raining” is the only response.
However, wrt Epstein. From what we know, he was not watched very carefully. He should have been watched very carefully. I don’t think anybody would doubt that, given who he is and his baggage, going a step or two above the protocols in place would occur to whomever was in charge. From current reports, that didn’t happen, which is to generate whythehellnot. And if it’s correct that the protocols were followed more loosely than prescribed when everybody with half a brain in the place knew that, if you weren’t going to more you sure weren’t going to do less, then questions arise.
it could be that protocols as written were never followed and what we see is what happened every night, procedures manual notwithstanding. But this is EPSTEIN, guys. Hello? Maybe there’s somebody a couple of levels up who didn’t have to actually do the work who might not mind going down there and suggesting the boys actually follow procedure. You know. Supervision. Because this is EPSTEIN.
This is the dog which didn’t bark.
Again, not taking sides but pointing out that what is needed for conspiracy theories is present here. Wasn’t my idea.
Art Deco. Missed the point. There’s no suspicious in being at a bank buying a money order. You have to do it and you have to do it sometime and you have to do it someplace. Not suspicious at all. But having all those have to dos and times and places put you moments away from Oswald’s walk to transport is the improbability. Hence suspicious.
As I say, enormously improbable or…Ruby knew from someplace what was going to happen and when.
People think conspiracies need to have vast numbers of people involved. Big events must have big causes. But this could have been done by one of Ruby’s cop friends–he was reputedly a cop aficionado. “Man, I just want to see the son of a bitch.”
Richard Aubrey; Richard Saunders:
Did you see my comment here?
and places put you moments away from Oswald’s walk to transport is the improbability. Hence suspicious.
There were dozens of little stories that day during that interval in time proximate to that post office. A man leaving work early because he was fired from his job. A couple having lunch at a diner, the wife telling the husband she wants a divorce. A man with a headache feeling the earliest signs of a catastrophic stroke. He was proximate to all of them.
Art Deco. But he was also proximate to a guy he wanted to shoot. Which could only be done at one place at one time. All of the other issues you mention could have happened at other places and other times. So either he just got lucky–calculate that–or he had some inside information.
Neo. I saw the piece. I’m interested in the insider thing. I knew guys like that in junior high. The knowing sneer. It occurs to me that a lot of it doesn’t involve much research. You find out what the ordinary people think and reverse it. I suspect that a lot of the liberal, Zinnified, black-armband view of American history comes from that. Gone around with a number of folks. Got a couple of history teachers on their heels and they decided I must be a “patriot”. IOW, not worthy of further time.
The references to Epstein’s Orgy Island have been around for a long time. The references to his plane being used for sex parties have been out there. Hard to believe there isn’t any truth to the claims.
Clinton reportedly went to the island repeatedly and rode on the plane often. Supposedly he ditched his Secret Service detail often to do so.
We KNOW Clinton was a horndog (whose purpose in life appears to be to screw as many women as possible). We KNOW he ditched his Secret Service detail while president in order to have assignations with women.
Why wouldn’t people think he went to the island and on the plane for sex? I would find a claim that he didn’t to be much harder to believe. Heck, I would be shocked if he ever went anywhere on vacation without arrangements having been made to take care of his sexual desires.