As our left demands socialist health care, the Scandinavian countries move towards increased private coverage
The Scandinavian systems are similar to Medicare for All in the respect that they use regional offices to administer reimbursements to providers.
Yet they differ in critical ways: They employ cost-sharing for certain services, they are less comprehensive in their coverage, and they allow for private health insurance plans to complement or supplement the government system to cover out-of-pocket expenses and to circumvent wait times or rationed access to specialists.
These are precisely the things Medicare for All would abolish. It’s intriguing that while socialists in America would rush to nationalize the health care system, Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes are all gradually increasing their use of private health insurance.
Between 2006 and 2016, the portion of the population covered by private insurance increased by 4% in Sweden, 7% in Norway, and 22% in Denmark…
Private plans in Sweden and Norway are mainly designed to supplement the government-run plan.
In addition to covering out-of-pocket costs, these plans also guarantee prompt access to specialists or elective procedures, which the state plans often fail to provide.
Denmark also allows “complementary” insurance plans, which cover services that are partially or not at all covered by the national system, including dental and vision services.
This growing European interest in private health insurance typically stems from dissatisfaction with the state-run systems, which often provide poor or incomplete coverage and long wait times…
This would all be illegal under Medicare for All. Private health insurance would be abolished for everyone.
I was first exposed to the problems with government health care coverage in the 90s, when as a result of my chronic arm and back injuries I participated in an online forum for chronic pain sufferers. We had some members from Canada and Great Britain, and their stories stood out in marked contrast to those in the US. The foreigners not only had to wait unconscionable amounts of time for appointments, they sometimes did not even qualify for tests or surgeries that they needed. The treatment of chronic pain in this country is hardly perfect—and treating chronic pain is inherently difficult—but in Canada and Great Britain the suffering of such patients seemed immensely greater than the suffering experienced by those in the US.
It was an eye-opener for me at the time. Prior to that, if I’d thought about the British or Canadian health care systems at all, I thought they were pretty good. But even back then in those countries there was a two-tiered state of affairs in which the rich often hot-footed it out (most likely to the US) for treatment, and the rest of the population stayed put and was greatly underserved.
So the developments in Scandinavia are no surprise, nor should they be.
Everyone we know in Sweden and France buys supplementary insurance.
I don’t hear a lot of talk of the Canadian health care system these days.
But, on Capitol Hill and in Congress around 15 or more years ago, the Canadian Health Care system was the great “new thing,” and had a great–and to my mind unwarranted, reputation.
It was seen as a system that the U.S. should strive to model itself after.
Back then, I had the suspicion that the reports about how great that system was were spin, which deliberately painted a superficial, and far too rosy picture of the system and it’s functioning, which failed to include in that picture the experiences of actual patients and their criticisms.
Since then, of course, I’ve seen the appearance of criticisms on the Internet of the actual workings of that Canadian Health Care system, and the effects on wait times and the quality of care due to it’s rationing practices, coming from its actual customers.
I once heard a man who came back from Great Britain described its health system as “Night of the Living Dead.” I also once on vacation overheard a Canadian complain about how corrupt their health system is. Apparently, there is a lot of bribery to get appointments.
No amount of fact based logic and reason will dissuade California’s liberal/leftists from dragging the state into the abyss.
The problem in re medical care and l/t care is that the logic of discussion is such that all plans will be subject to pot shots and efforts by politicians to rally constituencies which will be injured by changes in financing methods. There will always be such a constituency and our political system is very congenial to obstructive veto groups. Efficiency, stability of actuarial pools, comprehensive distribution of services, simplicity of administration, celerity of service, constraints on the growth of global expenditure, client choice – designing a system means trade-offs between these features.
There is a very important point here about whether a government run “healthcare for all” plan will or will-not coexist with private health insurance.
The U.K. has one of the oldest and most dysfunctional (the two are somewhat connected) “free” healthcare system. At this point, it is only acceptable to the extent that middle income and above people buy out of it in the private market.
In the 90’s and before, the Canadian system banned private health insurance like Dems are planning to do here now. I had an argument with a socialist friend back then. He spoke to a Canadian citizen who said that this was false. Yes, they were allowed to buy dental and optometrist insurance plans only.
Then, around the turn of the century, a court case made it up to the Canadian Supreme Court. It was established that hundreds and possibly thousands of citizens were being killed by the gov. system. If a patient has to wait 6 months or more for “emergency” cardiac care, then some will just die. The Court found the system to be unconstitutional, such as it existed then.
The obvious solution is that private health insurance must coexist with the gov. system, and it does now in Canada. Remember that, when your representatives are itching to vote private health insurance out of existence. I have zero confidence that John “The Coward” Roberts will protect us here.
About 25 years ago, traveling on a law case, we had an extra day so my opposing counsel and I took a trip to Vancouver Island. We met a nice young Canadian woman on the ferry back to the US. My opposing counsel’s husband was a doctor, so she asked about the Canadian system. The young woman effused about how great it was, she didn’t have to pay anything for the everyday issues. When asked what she would do if she became seriously ill, she replied, after a pregnant pause, “I’d go to Seattle”. That’s all I need to know.
Several years ago on a trip to England I became very ill. This was on a Sat. We found out there were no Doctors in the immediate area. We had to take a cab about 50 miles to a health care facility, not a hospital. The care was satisfactory and did not cost this American tourist a farthing. The nurse there (no Doc’s) gave me a medicine that I needed to take twice. She gave me the whole box and it was their last box.
It’s telling that none of the horror stories from the NHS manage to break through here. For example, a couple years ago there was a Daily Mail piece about how they don’t do Pap smears until after you are 21 – even with a family history of cervical cancer, so several young women have died from it in their early/mid twenties. Long term care homes were letting seniors dehydrate so they wouldn’t have to change their diapers. And, they have doctor strikes! Won’t that be fun!
The principal factors: cost, price, availability, and responsibility are separable, and should be considered individually and together.
Quoting Fraser Orr at Samizdata, where govt. messification is being discussed:
Richard Epstein and others have made the same point.
Fraser goes on to say,
https://www.samizdata.net/2019/06/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-1190/
If socialized health care is better, cheaper by far but with waiting, often waiting for death, for 80% or maybe even 90% of the people, it will continue to be attractive.
The US already has a poorly functioning, wait-rationing socialized care – Veteran’s Administration. Instead of “Medicaid for All”, the real goal is “VA hospitals for all”. And the lousy results of the VA system is what is being proposed.
I’d suggest that Trump and the Reps push thru a bill making all Fed Employees go to VA hospitals, and take a pay cut which is transferred to the VA admin.
There are essentially unlimited demands for health care, so actual care must be limited either by price, or by waiting, or some bribery combination.
Where is the call for more Med Schools in America??? A key cost is the cost of doctors, and I’m sure there’s been a far bigger increase in Law School enrollment and graduation since WW II than in Med School — but the US public needs more doctors more than they need more lawyers.
The supply is being gov’t limited thru AMA slow rolling any new Med Schools.
The media presents the negative Leftist Europe, but they don’t mention how Switzerland have an armed body of citizen patriots who are by law required to be armed, even if they discharge into the civilian “militia” body of voters.
Scandinavian social welfare has been funded by private or at least government subsidized oil income. So they at least know that if they want greater benefits, the average Scandinavian needs to pay more taxes, work more, or they need more economic leverage (that isn’t a Federal Reserve fiat currency system).
Another little piece of news you are not going to see reported by the MSM—
You might remember Hillary and her little seizure-like head bobs, well they’re nothing compared to this shake, rattle, and roll performance the other day by Angela Merkel who, afterwards, said that “she just needed to drink three glasses of water,“ and everything was “okey doke” again.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHfvJfVzw50
Perhaps German health care ain’t that good either.
In my rare predictions, I feel inspired to predict that healthcare in the US will need to undergo and currently is undergoing, a total system overhaul. Not a patch, but a complete uninstall with a reinstalled brand new OS, without the crap or crack ware.
Essential oils, alchemical infusions, crystal therapy, alternative healing modalities, will replace injections, vaccines, and doctor prescriptions. Other than surgery, which will still remain the repertoire of skilled doctors and their medical guilds, most other minor to major issues (such as cancer) will be treated successfully at less than 10% of the cost currently seen now. And not only that, but actual cures will be invented and refined instead of mere alchemical chemicals that treats symptoms with 501 side effects, including and up to death.
Canada has already had a news worthy teenager die because the school system is not required by law to inform parental consent over vaccinations. Sort of like abortions or birth control.
(that isn’t a Federal Reserve fiat currency system).
Sweden has a fiat currency on an independent float. No clue how you got the idea they have a gold standard or currency board.
government subsidized oil income.
Fuel and mineral exports account for around 3.3% of Sweden’s nominal GDP. You’ve confused Sweden and Norway.
My observation is that everybody pimping “Medicare for All” is not someone who would be forced to accept MFA as their only option. And only people who are ignorant of how many doctors refuse to take Medicare patients would see MFA as an attractive option.
Tommy Jay — I hate to disagree with you, but Chief Justice Roberts was 100% correct — Obamacare is a tax: it is a tax on the younger and healthier to pay for the healthcare of the older and sicker. They can disguise it all they want with mandatory coverage requirements and the individual mandate, but that’s what it is. Whether the Court should have struck O’care down because the Democrats lied about it, is another story.
Julie near Chicago — (Is it construction season yet?) If they are going to pass a law controlling prescription prices, it should include a provision that drug companies must spread the R & D costs against all sales (and thus the prices) of their drugs, not just those in the US.
Tom Gray — a little known provision of Obamacare reduced the government subsidies to hospitals for internships and residencies (Graduate Medical Education or GME). As I’ve often said, Obamacare was a plot by the Indian Medical School Association.
Richard Saunders:
The question was not whether Obamacare was a tax, but whether the payment required for not getting Obamacare would be classified as a tax or a penalty.
And secondarily, whether Obamacare supporters could claim it was a penalty as part of its legislative history and then claim they meant it was a tax when defending it in court.
In addition, if it was a tax, it was a capitation tax explicitly forbidden by the Constitution. That is my position.
Please see this on the subject.
Sweden has a fiat currency on an independent float. No clue how you got the idea they have a gold standard or currency board.
I didn’t say nor write what Sweden has. I stated that they need more economic leverage, preferablly one that is not a fiat currency system like the Federal Reserve.
No clue how you got the idea that your emotions and thoughts should be projected unto me.
Scandinavian social welfare has been funded by private or at least government subsidized oil income.
Sweden is a Scandinavian country. So is Norway, Art Deco.
Did you lose something somewhere? You need to go find it, as you lost the ability to comprehend some basic words.
You’ve confused Sweden and Norway.
If you are confused over what “Scandinavia” means, here’s a clue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia
I don’t like doing your homework for you though.
I didn’t say nor write what Sweden has. I stated that they need more economic leverage, preferablly one that is not a fiat currency system like the Federal Reserve.
‘Economic leverage’ is a nonsense term. Complaints about ‘fiat currency’ are an affectation of goldbugger cranks.