Teaching Islam
Here’s a lawsuit that may go all the way to the Supreme Court:
During the 2014-2015 school year, a Christian teenage girl was forced to recite the Islamic conversion creed — the Shahada — in writing for her 11th-grade class. She was also taught that “Most Muslims’ faith is stronger than the average Christian.” The Thomas More Law Center (TMLC) sued the school responsible, and the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled with the school. TMLC appealed to the Supreme Court, filing a Writ of Certiorari on Monday.
“Under the guise of teaching history or social studies, public schools across America are promoting the religion of Islam in ways that would never be tolerated for Christianity or any other religion,” TMLC President and Chief Counsel Richard Thompson said in a statement.
Islamophilia rather than Islamophobia?
People’s Republic of Maryland.
Who could see that coming?
But don’t you dare put a cross in some random park somewhere!
Or allow a Cross that honors war dead of WWI to stay where it has been for a very long time (sorry, I don’t know when it was erected but believe it was in the 20’s). Getting tired of this nonsense.
During the 2014-2015 school year, a Christian teenage girl was forced to recite the Islamic conversion creed — the Shahada — in writing for her 11th-grade class.
Technically speaking, if one recites the Shahada — “There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God” — once with sincerity, one has converted to Islam. Nothing else is required.
This is why I sometimes say, “Sure, Obama is a Muslim.” I’m sure he recited the Shahada at least once with sincerity while attending what he called a “Muslim school” in Indonesia and living with his Muslim stepfather.
Historically Muslims have forced millions to convert to Islam by reciting the Shahada at sword point. I find it absolutely repugnant that an American Christian teen should be so forced today.
I see the District Court granted summary judgment to the school district, then the 3 judge panel for the 4th circuit affirmed. I’m a cynic who despises the judiciary, so I’m going to note that all four judges are Obama appointees. One of them concurred in a humbug decision in North Carolina contra voter ID.
Whether the family has a properly considered constitutional claim or not, the gratuitousness of this stuns you. The study of the Muslim World is a component of world history classes which in turn should be a modest proportion of any high school’s specifically academic course offerings. (And, of course, no part at all of the VoTech offerings or their remedial offerings). And there’s plenty of historical study to be made without getting into the weeds of Muslim theology beyond some cursory summaries, much less contrived disparagement of Christianity and harassment of evangelical students. It’s hard to believe there weren’t several turning points in the sequence of events wherein the school system could have avoided litigation but nooooo. It often seems like the most incompetent people in the world go into school administration as a career.
so?
Its what women want, and its what they are going to get..
nothing you can do..
The women in opposition didn’t fight.. they are irrelevant now
ya think the guys they neutered want more of that for doing something?
its WAY too late…(actually 10 years ago was too late, but hope sprung eternal)
Since “some people” ignores the articles in wall street journal on below replacement birth rate since 1972 and its now falling faster (and the times, and the med journals, cause pretending it isn’t so, is how you make it go away, right? no, its how you hide it and help make it WAY too late!!!!!!!!!!!)
Then there is the other part of the puzzle, the replacement immigration policies openly available to read on the UN site and their other things we are following..
but what i dont get is why are you upset that the democrats are favoring the constituency that is replacing the people and has much higher births, and will be here and have the voting power over the very hated responsible for all ills left overs that didn’t die out in below replacement
Do you want them to ignore the demographic switch over like some people and not take advantage of it? do you want them to treat the ones going away better than the ones that are replacing them so that they do not garner the demographic to themselves? Do you not realize the new people are being groomed with acts of ingratiation and gifting?
and its all like its coordinated… but that would be a conspiracy of sorts
and those are not real and happening either
they say
There has never been a future in representing the dying out
EVERY one kind of knows except the victims of ideas as weapon, and ones that made it happen with their actions and devotion
think of what they would have to accept, cogitate, and realize..
way too much… easier to just deny it till, well, you cant…
This stuff in the school does NOT matter any more
those are not your kids…
they are under parens patria feminists made powerful medicine..
they are not yours, so this point in the school don’t matter…
they belong to the state who is insuring they are looked after right
a state that has the power to pick winners and losers and so forth..
who lift the undeserved as deserved because their population is going up
and who push down Hegelian fashion the deserved because they are then champions of those that will serve them…
Either they convert eventually, or what?
what will the demographics be when they are older?
boomers gone who are making it appear there is enough are going poof fast
that girl either converts, or she will have to live like the coptics and pay tikriya and no school, etc.
you think that cant happen?
Its a VOTING GAME and a voting game is a BABIES game
and the feminists and policy and such did what? dis-empower themselves believing they were empowering.. (twisted the exit signs around as i said for decades)
and what is the state of the Millennial kids?
[they are bad in all measures from mental health, to drug use, and more… ]
the latest generation of feminists who are bathed in it from birth to grad school
are even worse at having kids, don’t know how to have lasting relationships, and ya wouldn’t believe how they live given the scarcity of acceptable mates
(hypergamy is a biatch)
Which is why they are freezing eggs in droves for men they didn’t let join them in college and the board room, and in general… (that’s what it means to be below replacement)
So whats the beef in trying to get the future minority who will have to know who runs their world, to be able to integrate with them?
IF ya wanted to save the nation
you should have populated it with people who wanted it that way
and let families stay whole, so that parents passed down things
[wait till the guys find out they can have their oppressive power back and more oppressive, if they side with Islam,.. they can go from zero wives and called jerks to 10 wives and stfu… ]
sorry
im a bit tired being polite about it… I don’t have to
given history, there is no way to do a thing about it.
unless you can give a speech that makes the hate victims love again
its an interesting subject.. i sent a paper from Harvard on the differences
which is kind of proof the policy makers are Knaves, not fools…
and you guys thought Nero fiddled with a consciousness of whats going on
no.
to play the lyre well in this scenario, only being oblivious or deluded will do.
otherwise it will sour the notes, and i guess trip the steps of the ballerinas that turn with it.
It would be decent if any teaching of Muslim influence on world history would dwell a while on Mohammed’s pedophile tendencies, the cause of the Crusades, the Barbary pirates and the activities of Isis et al.
The opening sentence of the quote makes more sense if the word “recite” is replaced with the work “profess.” The student did not have to verbalize the Shahada, but she was required to put it in writing. I read most of the full article which is pretty interesting. Sounds like the Fourth Circuit is a newer judicial cesspool.
huxley’s comment occurred to me straightaway when reading this.
yes.. and historically they teamed up against the west with the left
they with hitler and stalin after… then with russia still..
the left and pre-left have always thought the masses would side with their racism
and eugenics from Indians to civil war, to WWII, to the 1960s post republican civil rights, to now..
almost all the pieces are in place for the next big whoop..
even multiple tinder boxes…
not that anyone pays attention to it as a whole, or even tries to, or even wants to see that…
or even asks questions that once tested would let them know…
its moot anyway..
“Islamophilia rather than Islamophobia?”
Not really; it’s more a combination of “Christophobia” and “oikophobia”.
If the question had been asked, “What is the basic Muslim statement of faith,” the student could have answered, “The basic statement which Muslims believe is that “[shahada].” I would be astonished to find that anyone at this school was required to repeat the Apostles’ Creed or the Nicene Creed — although it would be good for Muslim students to learn what Christians actually believe, vs. what the Koran erroneously says we believe.
Trump is on the verge of flipping the Ninth Circuit. Flipping the Fourth Circuit would be wonderful, but I don’t know when that will be possible.
Buy your Burkas now America. Avoid the rush.
This is merely an extension of changing “B.C.” to “B.C.E.” and “A.D.” to “A.C.E.” They want to wrest all connection to Christianity, and by extension, Judaism, from Western Civilization. The various Eastern religions, they consider to be cool. Environmentalism as a religion. That’s a plus for them. “Science” as a religion and not just a way of studying how the universe works, also a plus for them. Islam, a plus for them. But Christianity and Judaism, except for watered down versions that only believe in vague concepts of “love” and “tolerance”, they want them gone.
The student did not have to verbalize the Shahada, but she was required to put it in writing.
You can read the full text of the Fourth Circuit’s opinion here, and it says this about that:
The schools are an arm of the State. Of Course the State will rule in its own favor.
Separation of Mosque and State… of Mill and State, of Chamber and State.
Separation of Church and State is not in The Constitution, and is an overtly bigoted exclusion of Christians.
The basic tenets of islam are: misogyny, homophobia, pedophilia, and barbarism. The left want to use islam as a weapon against the traditions of Western Civilization. Dangerous fools that they are, they do not realize islam’s ultimate plan for them; namely misogyny, homophobia, pedophillia (well, they might be okay with that), and barbarism which would rape them (females and males alike), and wear their skins as a trophy.
I’m going to have to agree with Ann in this one.
Looking through the forth circuit opinion and reading deeper into the case it looks like more a case of an over reaction on the part of the student and her family. Besides Ann point that the student didn’t have to recite the Shahada one other thing standing out is that this was a 1 week overview of Muslim history in a year long course of many different historical subjects including the Muslim world.
To me it seems more like a teacher was just trying to give some knowledge and the student and his family took it too personal.
Here’s the specific portion of Wood v. Arnold dealing with the Shahada:
]Included in that assignment was the statement: “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah[,]” a portion of a declaration known as the shahada (the shahada assignment).
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/4589555/caleigh-wood-v-evelyn-arnold/
That’s not a “portion” of the Shahada; that is the Shahada. Given the gravity which Muslims ascribe to the Shahada, I don’t think any non-Muslim should be required to say it or write it even for educational purposes.
Maybe just leave it a box to tick off for multiple choice.
Huxley totally fair. Maybe the teacher should have made it a multiple choice box to tick it off on instead of a write the whole line question.
However the question in my mind, is this the teacher trying to force Islamic faith on or just trying to educate his students.
From what I have read it seems to me he’s just trying to expand their knowledge and the student or their parents should have just left the issue at the local level. Talk it out and maybe switch the question into a multiple choice answer instead of bringing it up to the courts.
“To me it seems…”
So, if the student, in a public school, was required to write about the basic tenents of Christianity or Judeaism you would be okay with that? I strongly doubt you would. Or is promoting islam just an element of the SJW crowd? On second thought, so putting it in writing is somehow different than verbally reciting the shahada? There is a phrase for your excuses, it comes from the south end of a north bound horse. Some assembly required. First a horse and then a compass.
In the full Thomas More Center’s <a href="https://www.thomasmore.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Wood-Petition-to-Print.pdf"😉 filing (p. 43), it shows the two words that had to be filled in:
Ha — I have no idea why that emoticon is there, and the underlines didn’t come through. The two words to be filled in are the first “Allah” and “messenger”.
Chang Yee Fong:
What about her teaching that “Most Muslims’ faith is stronger than the average Christian”?
“expand their knowledge…” oh, without mentioning misogyny, homophobia, pedophilia (a featrue not a bug), and the cruelity of their barbarism? Perhaps you think the crocodile will not eat you. Don’t know you, but have to based on your comments a fool at best.
Mr. CHANG IS A TROLL. He she it is a tool. In addition to be the terminal exit of the alimetory exit.
Re that “most Muslims’ faith is stronger than the average Christian” comment, the content specialist for Charles County, Jack Tuttle, “testified that this statement denigrating Christianity was ‘inappropriate’ and that teachers should not be forwarding this statement.” (p. 30) Too bad there was no review of that slide show before the teacher presented it. Wonder if they do that kind of review now?
I misquoted what it says about that content specialist on p. 30 — here’s what it actually says there:
Over the course of the last few years I have read several stories, reporting what appear to me to have been similar attempts at Islamic indoctrination/conversion that have taken place in K-12 schools all around the country, all under the guise of “learning about out cultures/religions,” “Social Studies,” or some such, often without any notice to parents of what was to take place.
I am very skeptical that these required recitations or writing of the Shahada that these K-12 students had to undertake were all just “innocent” attempts at education/learning about other cultures or religions.
I wonder?
Were the non-Christian students in these classes–presumably also interested in learning about another culture, other than their own, that of Christians–also required to recite or write the Christian confession of faith, the Nicene Creed?
Somehow, I don’t think so.
Would being made to recite that Christian, Nicene Creed even be legal?
Moreover, if it was illegal to make a student recite the Nicene Creed, why wouldn’t it also be illegal to require students to recite or write the Shahada, the Muslim’s confession of faith?
I have also read that, according to the traditional customs and beliefs of many Muslims, and some Muslim religious/legal authorities, once you recite the Shahada–whether in earnest, in jest, by mistake, or under duress–you have irrevocably converted to become a Muslim.
That was the point, I’d say, of a story I read–say a dozen or so years ago–about how some Western journalists who were captured by Islamic militants in the Middle East were forced to recite the Shahada at gunpoint, before they were released.
Why?
Well, besides being a demonstration of these journalist’s powerlessness and the Jihadis power, and a humiliation, I’d imagine that the Jihadis also believed that–whether these Western journalists knew it or believed it or not–this forced recitation of the Shahada made them converts to Islam.
Parker to answer your question. Would I be OK with it and my answer is yes. What so bad about letting the kids learn about it from a scholarly viewpoint? Let them ask the questions challenge them to deeper understanding. Put these views on the table and let the children figure it out. For instance by letting them write and understand the broad teachings of christianity then the kids will learn why the faith dominated over the pagan religions of the past and is still dominating today. It’s does not surprise to me that Christianity is the largest growing religon in China.
Neo. Goods question. On the surface it does look bad especially if you look at the current climate. Let’s take a step back and then look at it from a guy trying to teach some understanding of history to his students. If you were looking at the news and see one side willing to not just kill but commit suicide for their belief you might be inclined to think one side has a stronger faith. I personally don’t agree with that thought because my guess is the teacher really didn’t go in depth himself on the christian martyrdom of present day because the Left wing media avoid talking about it like the plague. So my viewpoint is that the teacher was trying to teach. He isn’t super well read however so he concluded something incorrectly and is teaching the incorrect conclusion.
I’m asking and is still asking is should this issue have gone to the courts couldn’t it have been resolved between the parents and the teacher and compromised. Including asking the teacher to also include the horrible points of Islamic history in his course work.
An,
I would nuke Mecca, Medina, and Quom in the blink of an eye. My give a damn was long ago busted. I have no mery for innocents in harms way, they have no mercy for they wish death to my children and grandchildren or soon to be great grandchild. Perhaps you lack future connections to whar comes next. I have a sharp interest the society they inherit.
“Scholarly in put…” I laugh at this post. You must assume most of us are idiots. I can assure we are looking through you.
So, if the student, in a public school, was required to write about the basic tenents of Christianity or Judeaism you would be okay with that?
It seems they do teach about the basic tenets of Christianity and Judaism in the Charles Co. schools — see this School system clarifies World History curriculum:
That post provides a link to the state World History class curriculum standards, where there’s this:
Parker since you are so interested in my background here a few for you. I’m a Malaysian Chinese Christian living my Malaysia. I had an American green card and when I was 18 I enlisted in the USMC and deployed with the 26th MEU. My MOS was division recon. I openly put funds on Alt-Right causes like the Alt-Hero comic on Indiegogo. Check out the names of the backers in that comic to find out.
Chang Yee Fong:
You write: ” If you were looking at the news and see one side willing to not just kill but commit suicide for their belief you might be inclined to think one side has a stronger faith.”
That’s not logically related to this: ““Most Muslims’ faith is stronger than the average Christian.”
There are several reasons. The first is that suicide bombing is not necessarily related to faith at all. The main motive seems to be the desire to kill the enemy, a political enemy at that (or one perceived as a political enemy) by someone who has weaker destructive weapons. Strategic suicide is a tactic resorted to by the weaker party, and it is a tool mostly of terrorists. Terrorists act against civilians, the better to sow terror among them.
It is done in the name of religion, but it is a political tool and is a political tactic. Willingness to commit suicide for a cause, by a weaker enemy against a stronger opponent, is not necessarily a reflection of faith at all; it has complex cultural and strategic roots, as the Japanese kamikaze pilots of WWII demonstrated (who were not actually terrorists, but were strategic suicides).
But this was not a discussion of the motivations of suicide bombers who happen to be Muslims. It was a statement about relative faith. Which brings us to the second point that makes your observation irrelevant. The statement about relative faith was not just a statement about suicide bombers, but about most Muslims and the strength of their faith compared to the average Christian. A very very tiny minority of Muslims are suicide bombers, so whatever part of their motivation happens to be faith, it can tell us absolutely nothing about the strength of the faith of most Muslims versus the average Christian.
Art Deco on May 17, 2019 at 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm said:
…It often seems like the most incompetent people in the world go into school administration as a career.
* * *
Those that can, do.
Those that cannot do, teach,
Those that cannot teach….
Actually, that little maxim is not true of all teachers — there are many very good ones. And likewise, many people who can do something very well are hopeless at teaching the skill to others. I have even known some tremendous principals and staff at my own and my kids schools, now 20 years and more in the past, and some good teachers and staff at my grandkids schools, but I have begun to wonder if they are all in the minority.
I do think that the bad administrators have no clue about teaching fundamentals or students’ needs, only caring about funding and career paths, and staying au fait with the latest fads and PC edicts.
Judgement of the court from here
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/4589555/caleigh-wood-v-evelyn-arnold/
PJM article from here
https://pjmedia.com/faith/christian-student-forced-to-write-islamic-conversion-creed-appeals-case-to-supreme-court/
Judgement of the court:
Hard to fill in those blanks if you don’t know the wording by memory.
Judgement:
PJM article:
If she filled in the blanks correctly, she was professing the shahada.
If the teacher couldn’t or wouldn’t come up with a work-around for that problem, then IMO the student had a legitimate complaint.
Judgement:
It was a statement of comparison presented as fact in a high school course, with a grade dependent on learning it.
That is what “advancing A over B” means.
“Subjective purpose” is a meaningless weasel phrase, presumably asserted because the teacher is not a Muslim overtly gathering converts (we hope), but it is irrelevant to the “advancing” claim.
Judgement:
It sure seems like one or a few citizens finding state action implicating Christianity offensive have often been enough to get it declared invalid.
Judgement:
So, if a student was required to write “There is no greater president than Donald Trump” in a unit studying American History, would the judges find that to be a speech bearing a particular message?
Judgement:
The shahada is a statement of belief, not an argument in support of it.
Judgement:
By the tenets of Islam, writing the shahada is a devotional practice.
Judgement:
Those two words complete the profession of faith, contrary to the student’s beliefs.
What is so hard about recognizing that? Are the judges really that dense?
Why didn’t the teacher sympathize (snowflakes who object to having to study things the left objects to get lots of sympathy), and just give her a different test option?
PJM:
Does this position of the judges remind anyone else of the Obama administration’s contention that the Obamacare law was not requiring employers to provide insurance coverage for abortion just because they had to notify a third party to provide the insurance for them?
https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/05/16/little-sisters-of-the-poor-win-big-in-obamacare-case/
Parker since you are so interested in my background here a few for you. I’m a Malaysian Chinese Christian living my Malaysia. I had an American green card and when I was 18 I enlisted in the USMC and deployed with the 26th MEU. My MOS was division recon. I openly put funds on Alt-Right causes like the Alt-Hero comic on Indiegogo. Check out the names of the backers in that comic to find out.
Parker is just a tad paranoid. It is a version of political shell shock or trauma.
I knew a few Marine recruiters. Their martial arts program was slightly better than Army.
The Army still was trying to do “sexual assault education” with power point slides. Sighs, talk about bureaucracy. The reason why women didn’t shoot attackers on US bases in iraq is due to the weapons conditioning and trigger conditioning of boot camp and marksmanship drills, that prevent “blue on blue” or friendly fire.
Aesop, it’s ok. Just require the State schools to recite the Articles of Faith, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
That will get the protestants and Atheists bothered and hot and triggered.
Those that can, do.
Those that cannot do, teach,
Those that cannot teach….
Those that can do, do tesach.
Those that cannot do, cannot teach.
Those that cannot teach, get paid a paycheck as a State teacher with summer vacations.
Too bad there was no review of that slide show before the teacher presented it. Wonder if they do that kind of review now?
A teacher with minimal good judgment would never have used it. The world doesn’t need more clucking and micromanaging twits. It needs non-idiots in the classroom.
Over the course of the last few years I have read several stories, reporting what appear to me to have been similar attempts at Islamic indoctrination/conversion that have taken place in K-12 schools all around the country, all under the guise of “learning about out cultures/religions,” “Social Studies,” or some such, often without any notice to parents of what was to take place.
Agreed. It’s also an indication of the amount of mush in elementary school curricula because bozos employed in elementary schools are bored teaching serious skills. In a sane world, 80% of your time in elementary school would consist of instruction in reading and writing (concluding with drill in English grammar) and instruction in arithmetic (concluding with elementary algebra). Some courses in the use of tools unavailable when most of us were that age would be helpful as well. Civic education incorporated into elementary curricula would consist not of ‘social studies’, but of history, geography, and civics and make scant reference to anything outside North America. Secondary school students who follow an academic course could take world history.
Neo at 12:11 am. Suicide bombers are just one facet of Islam’s assault on the West and its desire to destroy it.
“Speaking before Al-Azhar and the Awqaf Ministry on New Year’s Day, 2015, and in connection to Prophet Muhammad’s upcoming birthday, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, a vocal supporter for a renewed vision of Islam, made what must be his most forceful and impassioned plea to date on the subject.
Sisi during his New Year’s Day speech before Al Azhar
Among other things, Sisi said that the “corpus of [Islamic] texts and ideas that we have sacralized over the centuries” are “antagonizing the entire world”; that it is not “possible that 1.6 billion people [reference to the world’s Muslims] should want to kill the rest of the world’s inhabitants—that is 7 billion—so that they themselves may live”; and that Egypt (or the Islamic world in its entirety) “is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.” “
https://www.raymondibrahim.com/2015/01/01/egypts-sisi-islamic-thinking-is-antagonizing-the-entire-world/
Paul in Boston:
Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting that Sisi is politically ABLE to say that.
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As to the statement about Muslims’ faith being stronger than Christians’, the court is reasonably concerned about having the federal judiciary review every line of every school power point. Remember the saying, now totally defunct, “Don’t make a federal case out of it.”
As to the shahada, I certainly wouldn’t be offended if my daughter had been required, as part of a test, to fill in blanks “Christians believe that Jesus was [the son of God]” and “Jews believe that Jesus was [not the son of God],” notwithstanding that each of these statements is blasphemous to someone.
On a unanimous circuit opinion involving a rather minor episode, I would be surprised if the Supreme Court granted cert.
This is making me wonder whether students are required to recite or affirm their knowledge of the pledge of allegiance to the United States of America? Are they tested by filling in key words, ie “God.” If there are such tests, are students docked points for declining to write the answer?
Please welcome new commenter Chang Yee Fong, … oops, too late?
Thanks for writing your ideas.
In one of my very few disagreements with Neo, I think the willingness to KILL, for your religion, is a pretty good argument for strength of faith. What did Churchill call for: “For God and Country”. The historical truth is that leaders are often looking for reasons to incite people to kill other for them. While the reality of war is often that one becomes more willing to killing “them” because, during the fighting, someone you knew on your side was killed.
Patton (played by GC Scott) said it well: “when you put your hand in goo, that was your best friends face … you’ll know what to do.” (memory, not checking).
The Jap Kamikaze terrorist / suicides were for Country, but also their “God” (god-emperor Hirohito). And their religion Shinto, as explained to me by my father stationed there in the Korean War time, is that Shinto reveres “being Japanese”.
I’m reading Rod Dreher, author of the Benedict Option, meeter of many strong-faith Christians, yet often writing about the weakness of “Western” Christianity.
In most Muslim countries, abortion is illegal. In most Western “Christian” countries, killing the innocent but inconvenient and (temporarily?) unwanted human fetus, is legal.
I do NOT like the idea that most Muslims more strongly believe in Islam than most “Christian” believe in Christ, but I suspect it is true and certainly feel that huge numbers of Christians are not very strong in their actual religious faith about Christianity. Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, one based on the easy nice parts of Christianity, seems to be the far more popular belief.
As to the statement about Muslims’ faith being stronger than Christians’, the court is reasonably concerned about having the federal judiciary review every line of every school power point. Remember the saying, now totally defunct, “Don’t make a federal case out of it.”
Isn’t that cute? Federal appellate courts have been second guessing prayers offered at football games, but that’s actual popular culture, not ersatz culture imposed by their employees in the administrative class.
The bolshie stock clerk in Are You Being Served? to the tiresome (and idle) floor supervisor, “You realize when we take over, you’ll be the first one shot:”. Judges need to hear that.
Hi Neo I think were kinda arguing past each other.
I don’t disagree with your statement about relative faith. Read my second paragraph where I stated this.
” I personally don’t agree with that thought because my guess is the teacher really didn’t go in depth himself on the christian martyrdom of present day because the Left wing media avoid talking about it like the plague. ”
What I am saying the teacher himself is uninformed and mentally lazy as Art Deco and AesopFan has pointed out about educators in America. Which meant when he was trying to teach a subject he taught it as his mentally lazy self thought it would benefit his students.
My concern is that it doesn’t seem that any type of true dialogue was attempted between the teacher and the parents. I looked in the articles given if there was a decent attempt between the students parents and teacher to talk and work it out. I couldn’t find it. So it went straight to court. Now they’ll try to bring it to SCOTUS and in my opinion there is a good chance SCOTUS will discard it.
Net results, both sides blame each other, the liberal teacher and the school board blames the parents saying no dialogue was attempted and the parents blame the school saying they are indoctrinating their kids.
ymarsakar on May 18, 2019 at 8:43 am at 8:43 am said:
Aesop, it’s ok. Just require the State schools to recite the Articles of Faith, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
That will get the protestants and Atheists bothered and hot and triggered.
* * *
You left out a few groups. 😉
y81 on May 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm said:
…
As to the shahada, I certainly wouldn’t be offended if my daughter had been required, as part of a test, to fill in blanks “Christians believe that Jesus was [the son of God]” and “Jews believe that Jesus was [not the son of God],” notwithstanding that each of these statements is blasphemous to someone.
* * *
The point is not whether you, or I, or someone else (like a judge) would be offended.
The point is that the student and her family were offended, because of her strongly-held religious belief that writing or reciting a religous statement that she did not believe to be true, and which directly contradicted what she did believe to be true, would be blasphemy committed by HER.
I think she should be commended for the strength of her faith & principles.
Art Deco on May 18, 2019 at 9:25 am at 9:25 am said:
Too bad there was no review of that slide show before the teacher presented it. Wonder if they do that kind of review now?
A teacher with minimal good judgment would never have used it. The world doesn’t need more clucking and micromanaging twits. It needs non-idiots in the classroom.
* * *
And fewer idiots in administration as well.
From the news stories of the last few years, we already have a surplus in both positions.
Esther on May 18, 2019 at 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm said:
This is making me wonder whether students are required to recite or affirm their knowledge of the pledge of allegiance to the United States of America? Are they tested by filling in key words, ie “God.” If there are such tests, are students docked points for declining to write the answer?
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Just asking for a friend? 😉
Answer:
You can burn a US flag with no negative judicial — or, these days, social — consequences.
Try and burn a Koran without being arrested or Twit-mobbed, and being forced into hiding by a fatwa encouraging people to kill you.
Tom Grey on May 18, 2019 at 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm said:
…I think the willingness to KILL, for your religion, is a pretty good argument for strength of faith.
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If your religious beliefs include a doctrine requiring you to kill on command of your authorized leaders, or by a personal judgment that someone should be killed for violating your religious doctrines, and this is difficult for you to do, it might be a test of your strength of faith. For some people, killing others with the permission of your religion is much, much too easy.
However, the willingness to DIE for your religion, rather than to personally do something forbidden by your doctrines, is far harder for just about everyone, and IMO a much better test of faith.
Note to ymarsakar: yes, I already know the stories you are going to mention; they generate some interesting conversations and serious private reflection. However, at this point in time, there is only one major world religion that currently includes doctrines permitting or commanding individuals to commit murder both inside and outside their own membership.
Which is one reason we have posts like this.
Art Deco on May 18, 2019 at 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm said:
..the court is reasonably concerned about having the federal judiciary review every line of every school power point. ..
Isn’t that cute? Federal appellate courts have been second guessing prayers offered at football games, but that’s actual popular culture, not ersatz culture imposed by their employees in the administrative class.
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Yep.
The good ship “this is too petty to require courts to get involved” sailed, and sank, a long time ago.
Chang Yee Fong on May 18, 2019 at 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm said:
…
My concern is that it doesn’t seem that any type of true dialogue was attempted between the teacher and the parents. …
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This is an excellent point, and one that figures far too often in the “petty” cases being brought to the courts instead of being worked out in personal negotiations between schools and teachers and parents and students.
But, that is too hard, and no one wants to be second-guessed about making the wrong decision (which just escalates the pettiness until the courts do have to get involved).
It occurred to me just now, that maybe we should institute some kind of arbitration panels for these disputes, that are either binding or at least have some kind of “grand jury” aspects as to whether there is a legal question incumbent on a court to answer.
The problem (as with any controversial subject) is guarding agains bias and incompetence in the panel itself.
Chang Yee Fong –
Also, welcome to the comment board.
It’s always good to get some new perspectives.
AesonFan, thanks but I’ve already been commenting in the past just not as much as today. Remember this post about South Korea and Iran? https://www.thenewneo.com/2018/01/03/predicting-iran/#comments
As for arbitration. I don’t really know. My general belief is if we can educate people to figure it out themselves we should go in that direction. Adding on more institutions is not something I’m keen on.
However you might be right in that things have gotten so divided that it might get to the level that maybe the next best thing is to get a neutral third party to sort it out.
Also ymarsakar sorry I didn’t read your post’s. As for the USMC having a better martial arts program than army, it better be, I was one of guys who told Master Guns Urso about this guy http://www.forcenecessary.com/hock-hochheims-blog/ who they consulted along with some other guys in the late 90’s to work out what would be a good H to H style moving forward into the new millennium for the Corp.
I don’t recall the army doing anything like that when they develop their H to H program. My guess is they just listen to what the SOCOM guys tell them considering how stuck up SOCOM ass crack the army has gotten since 9/11.
Note to ymarsakar: yes, I already know the stories you are going to mention;
You knew about these stories before I did, apparently. Your mind reading skills aren’t up to my standard yet ; )
Chang Yee Fong
It’s dangerous reading my posts sometimes.
As for your link, that’s funny. I came up with my own version of that after I was doing Tai Chi and saw some pulley weight machines in a gym, so I tried it out. Punched using whole body muscle connection like a boxer, with the weight set to 200 pounds or thereabouts. Unlike bench pressing, this increased the small stabilizer muscles as well as the larger muscles, increasing whole body burst strength. Which is needed to exert certain power techniques.
The Army decided to go full MMA style. Which had its fair share of casualties later on.
Looking at the pictures in the page, that’s the exact same style of machine even. Except I didn’t use the weights to train my arm strength. In Tai chi and internal arts, the power is rooted to the ground and the legs serve as the piston engine, not the triceps or biceps or hips even. Thus I was able to do a slow punch being very close to the weights, and putting the pin about half way to 40% top quad, on the stack of black weights. That was a lot of weights, which would be impossible to even lift with control, using one arm. But not that hard using a full body punch technique.
remember:
its not islamophobia if they really are trying to kill you
>which they are
Chang Yee Fong on May 18, 2019 at 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm said:
AesonFan, thanks but I’ve already been commenting in the past just not as much as today. Remember this post about South Korea and Iran? https://www.thenewneo.com/2018/01/03/predicting-iran/#comments
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Your memory is better than mine!
Reviewing that story, I do not now recall that anything at all was done about South Korea evading our sanctions on Iran, but, as part of the news-cycle dominance of American media, we often don’t find any follow-ups of what was once the Headline News Crisis of the Day.
As I remarked at the time, “It is hard to understand what’s happening when it has to be mediated through so many third- and fourth-hand parties.”
Ann on May 17, 2019 at 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm said:
The link doesn’t work. The correct URL is
https://www.thomasmore.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Wood-Petition-to-Print.pdf
(The brief runs to 104 pdf pages. Yikes.)
Julie – all briefs are too long.
Calling them briefs is just a lawyer joke.
Debrief. It is a military joke.