Let’s hear it for Norman Podhoretz, the original neocon
Norman Podhoretz is eighty-nine years old and still going strong, not to mention sharp as a tack.
Case in point, this interview. Unfortunately, the Podoretz interview itself is behind an impregnable paywall, so that link is to a post at Ace’s that contains lengthy excerpts from the interview such as this one:
So for a while I was supporting Marco Rubio and I was enthusiastic about him. As time went on, and I looked around me, however, I began to be bothered by the hatred that was building up against Trump from my soon to be new set of ex-friends. It really disgusted me. I just thought it had no objective correlative. You could think that he was unfit for office–I could understand that–but my ex-friends’ revulsion was always accompanied by attacks on the people who supported him.
They called them dishonorable, or opportunists, or cowards–and this was done by people like Bret Stephens, Bill Kristol, and various others. And I took offense at that. So that inclined me to what I then became: anti-anti-Trump. By the time he finally won the nomination, I was sliding into a pro-Trump position, which has grown stronger and more passionate as time has gone on…
…[S]ome of them have gone so far as to make me wonder whether they’ve lost their minds altogether. I didn’t object to their opposition to Trump. There was a case to be made, and they made it–okay. Of course, they had no reasonable alternative. A couple of them voted for Hillary, which I think would have been far worse for the country than anything Trump could have done.
But, basically, I think we’re all in a state of confusion as to what’s going on. Tom Klingenstein has made a brilliant effort to explain it, in terms that haven’t really been used before. He says that our domestic politics has erupted into a kind of war between patriotism and multiculturalism, and he draws out the implications of that war very well. I might put it in different terms–love of America versus hatred of America. But it’s the same idea.
Please read the whole thing.
By the way, when Podhoretz uses the phrase “my soon to be new set of ex-friends,” he’s harking back to a book he wrote in 2001 entitled Ex-Friends: Falling Out With Allen Ginsberg, Lionel and Diana Trilling, Lillian Hannah Arendt, and Norman Mailer.
Interestingly enough, Irving Kristol was another early neocon. Kristol senior is now deceased, but Bill Kristol is his son. And in a strange (or maybe not-so-strange) parallel, John Podhoretz (another NeverTrumper, although I’m pretty sure he’s not nearly as strongly so as Bill Kristol) is Norman Podhoretz’s son.
As someone remarked in one of the comments to a piece on Norman Podhoretz’s interview, I wonder what Thanksgiving conversation is like at the Podhoretz house.
I wonder what Thanksgiving conversation is like at the Podhoretz house.
I imagine it’s no different from what it was. Media coverage is show business, and has been for a long time. Just wasn’t clear to most us before 2016.
In a thread on this piece from another website, a commenter gave the tip that the article can be accessed if you use Safari and disable JavaScript. It worked for me….
Of all the younger Never-Trumpers, the two most egregiously spiteful and foolish are Max Boot and Jennifer Rubin; both are pseudo-conservatives employed by WaPo in order to delude the gullible into imagining that Trump is hated as much by the supposedly “principled” right as by the progressive left.
Frederick:
I don’t see what it has to do with media coverage.
The point I was trying to make was that in this interview Podhoretz senior is basically saying his own son is crazy and wrong. That doesn’t mean they can’t still love each other, but it certainly could cause a rift (and not just because of the interview; because of the strength of the disagreement itself) and could create a lot of arguing at the dinner table for people who are deeply immersed in politics.
Norman Podhoretz gives a rare interview and expresses his opinion on Trump, NeverTrump, and, indirectly but unavoidably, his fat, soft-handed, lap-of-luxury decrepit soyspawn Jon Podhoretz. –Ace
I sure get tired of this insulting crap from hyper-Trumpers. It’s nice Ace managed to fix the spelling of JP’s first name since I read his post earlier this morning.
I read Jon Podhoretz now and then and he always seems reasonable. He still not keen on Trump but doesn’t write with the spittle-flecked fury of Trumpers like Ace. I also enjoying listening to JP’s GLoP podcast with Jonah Goldberg and Rob Long.
https://ricochet.com/series/goldberg-long-podhoretz/
Sorry to be a bore on this point. There is little in the way of a popular ‘NeverTrump’ constituency. If you look at the survey research comparing W’s approval ratings among Republicans with Trump’s at comparable points, your single best guess would be that the NeverTrump perspective does not exceed 4% of the Republican electorate.
They’ve been a good deal more common among office-holders and opinion journalists. The office-holders have now largely retired (Ryan, Flake) or filed it away for practical reasons. Trump’s challenger in 2020 will be Bill Weld, who was always an outlier and whose seven years as a working electoral politician antedated Jim Gilmore’s term as Governor of Virginia.
I do find the disconnect between Republican voters and Republican opinion journalists to be a sociological curio worth exploring. By some accounts, Wm. Kristol has been reduced to hustling for donations among leftoid billionaires; they’re so short of manpower that on The Bulwark‘s masthead you find someone who used to work for Slate and among their current contributors you find another person who has made over 100 contributions to Huffington Post over the years.
Something I’d forgotten but now resurfaces is that over the period from 1973 to the present, George Will (who counted himself as a personal friend of Nancy Reagan) has written at least one column during every Republican administration indicating that he actually regarded the President of the day with contempt. (Ronald Reagan excepted). His attitude toward Trump is novel in its relentlessness and in the practical implications he draws from it, but he hasn’t thought well of anyone who sat in that chair.
From Ace: “Norman Podhoretz grew up as a poor blue-collar kid. He became a famous intellectual, but he was and is a blue-collar kid….They [Never-Trumpers] are among the most tribal people on earth — it’s just that their real tribe is, and has always been, the cosmopolitan intellectual class of the left.”
Of all the younger Never-Trumpers, the two most egregiously spiteful and foolish are Max Boot and Jennifer Rubin;
Boot was cut from the contributor’s list at Commentary not quite two years ago and has all but defected to the Democratic Party. His salaried job is at the Council on Foreign Relations, where I don’t imagine the President has any constituency at all. (And his wife is the primary earner in that household). Rubin’s work has been sliced to pieces at National Review, hardly a hotbed of the president’s admirers.
Here’s the web address for an American Greatness article by Klingenstein, which might be what Podhoretz references:
https://americanmind.org/essays/our-house-divided-multiculturalism-vs-america/
I also enjoying listening to JP’s GLoP podcast with Jonah Goldberg and Rob Long.
If you say so. I stopped bothering with Goldberg when every column began to read like every other column.
David French has been propagating the view that the Mueller investigation was on the level even as it’s being dissected by Andrew McCarthy on the same home page. French has recently condemned the current administration’s activity in Yemen (inherited from the previous administration). If I took French at face value, I’d have to conclude he regards every American military operation since 1945 as unlawful.
I wonder what Thanksgiving conversation is like at the Podhoretz house.
The public writings of the children of Norman Podhoretz and Midge Decter haven’t heretofore been discordant.
The older sisters in that family have another sibling not part of the family circle, the art historian Joshua Decter (he’s the issue of Moshe Decter’s 2d marriage). He’s fairly free with his political opinions, and they’re about what you’d expect of a humanities academic.
https://twitter.com/joshuadecter?lang=en
huxley:
Agreed that Podhoretz Junior has been nothing like as extreme as Kristol.
Nor do I like the invective about physical characteristics. That’s Ace’s “voice,” though, and although it’s not my style, a lot of what he writes is very very good. That’s why I read him.
That Klingenstein article is at The American Mind, a Claremont Institute publication. Not that the people at American Greatness would disagree.
@neo:I don’t see what it has to do with media coverage.
The point I was trying to make was that in this interview Podhoretz senior is basically saying his own son is crazy and wrong.
Right, but he and his son, being part of the media coverage of politics, are playing a part in public. Thinking that they go home and fight at Christmas is like thinking actors who play enemies are enemies in real life. Because media coverage of politics is show business.
Perhaps I am too cynical.
Thinking that they go home and fight at Christmas i
Not a high holy day in the Podhoretz-Decter clan.
@Art Deco:Not a high holy day in the Podhoretz-Decter clan.
Neither would Thanksgiving be technically. 🙂
I read a lot of John Podhoretz, even follow his Twitter feed (when he’s not taking a break from it, like he’s done for the past month), and I don’t agree at all with Ace that he’s in lockstep with those Never Trumpers who are “willing to fight … viciously and bitterly — so long as the opponents are conservatives. Then the knives come out, then the eye-gouges and low-blows begin raining, then the shivs start getting sharpened. …But they won’t fight this way against their neighbors — physical neighbors — in the leftwing cities and tony suburbs. For them, the seek compromise and understanding. Have they ever tried to seek compromise with Trump supporters? No, them they brand as Nazis and Deplorables.”
In his NY Post articles and on Twitter, J.Podhoretz has been plenty hard on the left and he’s never disparaged Trump voters themselves, even when he’s tough on Trump.
If you say so. I stopped bothering with Goldberg when every column began to read like every other column.
Art Deco: And if you say so.
In the future if you wish to respond to what I’ve written, credit my words, say my name.
“Breaking Bad – Say My Name”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKrCs1rFRI
Go to the link, hit “Save” and save the html file, then open the file in a new tab.
Thanksgiving is the one holiday we all share, whatever our origins. As my immigrant father-in-law used to say, “Thank God we’re all over here!”
Neither would Thanksgiving be technically.
There weren’t any Ashkenzic Jews on the continent in 1621, but Ashkenazic Jews can celebrate their survival as can anyone, and can enjoy the fruits of the Earth. See Leon Wieseltier’s memoir of those he knew ca. 1962, who had survived the period running from 1938 to 1945. A term often heard in certain settings was ‘mechaye’ – literally ‘a resurrection’ – which could refer to something as mundane as ‘a perfectly cooked hamburger’. A celebration of everyday life by people who had known great misery.
Ann,
I think you’re right about John Podhoretz. He tries hard for balance.
Thanks for the correction, Kate. You got it right.
Frederick:
Thanksgiving is absolutely a holiday celebrated by Jews, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. See this.
OK, nobody seems to be suggesting that Jews do not celebrate Thanksgiving, just that it is not a “High Holy Day”, a term which strictly means Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and in some interpretations includes the ten days in between. I’m pretty sure even Passover is not technically a High Holy Day.
Thanksgiving is absolutely a holiday celebrated by Jews
By American Jews.
@neo:Thanksgiving is absolutely a holiday celebrated by Jews
Wasn’t saying they don’t celebrate Thanksgiving. Not a “high holy day technically” is what I said.
You know I hate that people use emojis to indicate the tone of a comment–but I made that concession and STILL got misinterpreted. 🙄
I’m sure most American Jews celebrate Independence Day but that wouldn’t make it a high holy day would it? The list of high holy days that NJ Mike gave seems pretty limited, but those aren’t the only days Jews celebrate.
But it’s interesting, right, that others commenters assumed I must have been saying that Jew don’t celebrate Thanksgiving. One person assumed I said so, and the others piled on.
And so I can see why the media finds it so easy to mischaracterize what Trump said. It’s a very human thing to do–to respond to what you expect someone to have meant by what they said, rather than what they actually did say.
Frederick:
Actually, my vision isn’t so hot lately (cataract, probably need some surgery) and that emoji was very small on my screen and didn’t look like a smiley face but a certain of flatline mouth, kind of a glum face. It still looks that way, actually, unless I make the font a lot larger than usual. So I simply didn’t see your remark as a joke necessarily, although I thought it might be. That’s why I wrote that I didn’t know what you were talking about—because I really wasn’t sure why you made the remark and what you meant by it.
But I took it as an opportunity to talk about the Jewish attitude towards Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving isn’t a high holy day in any religion, of course, and Jews celebrate it as much as anyone, and have their own version of Thanksgiving as well. That was my only point.
Jews have only two high holy days which are really one connected period, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. That’s it. Even Passover, coming up this evening, isn’t considered a high holy day although it’s a big holiday.
Sometimes I put information in the comments not just for the person I’m addressing—who may indeed be aware of everything I’m writing—but for everyone who might be reading. I just did it there when I talked about the high holy days.
But now I understand what you were getting at.
Art Deco:
Your point?
Thanksgiving is only celebrated by Americans, period (although some other countries have a Thanksgiving of their own). So of course when I say it’s celebrated by Jews I mean American Jews, because it’s limited to Americans in general.
However (and this is why I put that link in there that was a discussion of Sukkot), observant Jews have another type of “thanksgiving” holiday that is a harvest festival.
Thanks Older+, great essay:
Trump is a walking, talking rejection of multiculturalism and the post-modern ideas that support it. Trump believes there are such things as truth and history and his belief in these things is much more important than whether he always tells the truth himself or knows his history—which admittedly is sometimes doubtful.
I liked Norman’s being uncomfortable with the anti-Trump folk, and becoming anti-anti-Trump. I’m very much on board with being anti- anti-Christian; anti- anti-pro-life, and anti- anti-Rep. So I’m in the anti-PC group, and was, and remain, NeverHillary. Still hoping that they will Lock Her Up. (even think that Trump made a mistake not to push for a real investigation early – tho it’s not too late. And revenge; hm, isn’t that a dish best served cold?)
Trump fights against PC bull manure, and is fighting FOR America:
The core idea of each of these anti-P.C. blasts, when taken in aggregate, represent a commitment to America’s bourgeois culture, which is culturally “Judeo-Christian,” insists on having but one language and one set of laws, and values: among other things, loyalty, practical experience, self-reliance, and hard work. Trump was affirming the goodness of our culture. Odd as it may sound, he was telling us how to live a worthy life.
Wow, really a great essay. Tho he doesn’t mention another great essay, the Flight 93 election, Thomas K makes reference to how, without Trump, it might have gotten so bad it could never get back. My second thought, after 93, was it probably will never get back — but it might.
He finally points out what I’ve concluded, the primary source of the rot is at our colleges, especially our elite colleges.
the purpose of higher education, in particular elite higher education, is to train future citizens on behalf of the common good. If the elite universities are promoting multiculturalism, and if multiculturalism is undermining America, then the universities are violating their obligation to the common good no less than were they giving comfort to the enemy in time of war.
We need to end Fed research to colleges which discriminate against hiring Reps as professors; end tax-exempt status for them, and punish them as much as the law against discrimination allows.
Plus support Rep students filing suits against “hostile environments” by the colleges. We should plans on what to do drawn up, so Reps can propose those plans in 2020, get elected, and fulfill the plans. Gov’t supported ed requires hiring Reps as well as Dems.
Neo, when you say: Thanksgiving isn’t a high holy day in any religion
you’re only half-right. Because religion isn’t the only thing people believe in; tho what you do believe in is a neo-religion.
Millions of folk believe in America.
July 4 & Thanksgiving, the two “great” American holidays.
Not explicitly considered “holy”, yet for many secular folk, especially those who have drifted into Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, the American Thanksgiving “holi-day” is often listed as the best or second best holiday.
They go along with all the Christian, Jewish, and other holidays many might celebrate, especially Christmas (or Xmas) for giving and getting gifts.
I do think belief in America has been sort of a neo-religion, but along with its unifying power, it includes the cynical backlash from the neo-intellectuals who like to point out the imperfections of all folks’ belief systems.
In many ways, the multiculturalists are attacking American beliefs in similar ways to how secular humanists have attacked Christian and other religions.
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What Podhoretz (Sr.) said, a thousand times over.
(Alas, I feel that it’s most unfortunate that his wise words even needs to be said….)
= = = = =
Regarding Jews and Thanksgiving, MOST American Jews—of all “streams”—celebrate this wonderful holiday. Some American Jews do not celebrate it. (I’ll go out on a limb and say that this would include the ultra-orthodox—and perhaps SOME of the modern orthodox—as well as the extreme Leftists; for the ultra-orthodox, etc., the holiday of Sukkot (AKA Succos) is the Biblically-mandated Thanksgiving holiday, while for the Leftist fringe, I’m not sure they actually celebrate America in any form, though I could be wrong on that, certainly….)
Regarding the Holiday of Pesach (“Pesach” meaning the “passing over”—in this case, the homes of the Israelites in Egypt in the event of the killing of the Firstborn—and which is also referred to as the “Holiday of Spring”, “Holiday of Freedom”, “Holiday of Matza”): though it is NOT—as mentioned above— a “High Holiday”, it IS, along with Sukkot (holiday of Booths) and Shavu’ot (holiday of Weeks, AKA Pentecost) one of the three pilgrimage holidays, which in fact makes it a MAJOR holiday…..
Happy Passover, Happy Easter—and Happy, well, Spring—to all of you!…and thanks, once again, to NEO for the blog and the opportunities it offers!!
Wasn’t saying they don’t celebrate Thanksgiving. Not a “high holy day technically” is what I said.
Not as a rule. Pretty sure it’s on the liturgical calendar of the Episcopal Church, or was prior to 1979.
See Anthony Esolen on the distinction between ‘popular culture’ and ‘mass entertainment’. Esolen refers to music: ‘popular music’ is that played by people in their own homes on their own instruments’. It isn’t a consumer product. By the same token, you have common celebrations in this country which are not artifacts of public policy or institutional life (though they can be recognized in law and injured by consumer culture): Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, 4th of July, New Year’s, and Halloween. Some have a religious dimension, some do not. Those are our only real holidays (and they don’t all entail time off). The rest are concessions to public employee unions and Coretta Scott King. Fifty years ago, Memorial Day was of significance; not anymore. Others are or were of subcultural importance: St. Joseph’s Day (for Italians), Yom Kippur / Rosh Hoshannah, Passover, 6th of January (for Orthodox Christians).