Fire in Notre Dame
[BUMPED UP and UPDATED]
This is a breaking story, so there isn’t much known about it (or its causes), but there’s a huge fire in Notre Dame in Paris and the roof and spire have collapsed.
UPDATE 5:54
Paris’ Notre Dame Cathedral has been saved from “total destruction,” according to a French fire official, after a massive fire ripped through the structure on Monday and caused the roof and main spire to collapse.
While it will take another three or four more hours to contain the fire, the official said the two towers have now been saved. That news come as a sign of relief after one of the towers caught fire earlier in the evening. Earlier, a French Interior Ministry official had said that firefighters might not be able to save the cathedral.
About 400 firefighters have been fighting to save the building and its contents. I’ve read conflicting reports and don’t know whether the following is true, but one report mentioned that although the wooden interior is gone, the most precious artwork and relics had all been stored elsewhere.
There is really no news on the cause of the fire, although you can easily speculate that the two leaders are accident and terrorism. Whichever it is, however, the symbolism of the decline of a great culture and a great religion springs obviously to mind.
UPDATE 6:20
Here is a Twitter thread about the special difficulties of fighting a fire in a building such as Notre Dame.
UPDATE 11:58 Good news. Much of the inside of the cathedral appears to have survived.
Horror! If pope John-Paul II would be remembered as a pontiff under whom the evil of Communism ended, the present pope would be remembered as a Marxist under whom the main European cathedral was destroyed by fire just days before Easter. A poignant omen for European civilization.
Tragic.
This will affect and even shake people in different ways given the presuppositions which they bring to the event. The purely historical dimensions and loss are incalculable.
Looks to me, and I saw it relatively early on, that the fire started over the apse or where the apse met the nave above the sanctuary; though that is just an impression gained from the early videos I saw.
The BBC had some good shots of the fire early on.
The entire roof of the nave has burned away and collapsed as well as the transepts, which appear to be mere facades now. The entrance and the flanking towers remain at this moment.
Even stained glass that did not burn/melt, will probably be rendered so brittle as to be un-salvageable … like a beer bottle found in the ashes of a campfire.
There are of course many other magnificent cathedrals, but I cannot think of any as important [no doubt someone else will] which are not found in modern backwaters, or in former but no longer, imperial, cities.
So far, reports are that it was related to the renovations which were underway, a historically awful construction accident.
Analogies to the collapse of Christian faith in France are hard to avoid.
To paraphrase what I think was a Renan quote; how long can a civilization be sustained on the fumes of an empty bottle?
The remaining French faithful, can go do penance at the Sacre Coeur. The entire handful of them.
“Somebody did something”. Again.
DNW, I don’t think it’s quite as small as a handful, but it’s bad. I was in France on 9/11/01; several French people came up to us, hearing our voices, to tell us they had been to mass to pray for America.
It’s the combination of the loss of Christian faith and the addition of Islamic believers, some of them violent, which is really frightening.
This is a great tragedy.
liberals are celebrating hoping it gets completely burnt down and with a new mosque built on the site replacing it.
At Jihad Watch, they highlight tweets by some French people with Arabic names rejoicing to see it burn. That doesn’t mean a lot; there are always creeps saying sick things on Twitter.
Coincidentally Gatewaypundit has a story up today about the sentencing of a female Jihadi who tried to stage a car bomb attack in front of the Cathedral some time ago.
Given all the attacks that Muslims have staged in France, in Paris and elsewhere around the world, one can’t help but suspect that this fire may not be an accident.
But that, even if it turns out to be deliberate, that the French authorities will not say so, but will maintain that it was an accident.
See https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/04/breaking-on-friday-female-jihadi-jailed-over-attempted-car-bombing-outside-notre-dame-cathedral/
And see this, as well https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/04/shepard-smith-cuts-off-french-elected-official-who-speculates-notre-dame-fire-not-an-accident-video/
That Shep Smith gets paid to be Shep Smith on the air is one of the mysteries of the age.
I hope this isn’t Islamic terrorism. If it were proven to be, it would cry out for a forceful response which, given the spinelessness of all but one western leader, would never come. In addition to losing an iconic symbol of Christianity and western civilization we would once again be exposed as the weak horse.
Actually, I can’t fault Shepard Smith for not enlarging on what is merely speculation at this point. The speaker was correct in saying that there had been attacks and vandalism on churches in France; in the Paris area recently, Saint-Denis. But there needs to be some evidence for what caused this fire. Best to wait for that.
Kate–I blame Shep Smith for deciding that he is the arbiter of the news, and censoring what an elected official representing the country involved–who surely has a more informed and better understanding of what is going on in his own country, and area–has to say, when it doesn’t fit in with ol’ Shep’s leftist world-view.
Shep is supposed to report the news, not determine what the news should be, and certainly not what information we are allowed to have access to, when we need to have access to as much information as possible–from all sides–in order to make an intelligent assessment, and to make our own minds up.
Perhaps this official’s speculations are wrong, perhaps they are right, but we should have been allowed to hear and judge them for ourselves, not have the official cut off in mid-sentence at the whim of arrogant ol’ Shep.
Had I my way, Shep–who not so much reports as twists the news–would have been drop kicked out the door at FOX–many months, if not years, ago.
Sad…
the first reports set the foundation reason… accident small fire from repairs
but, you ever wonder why these “repairs” happen very very late at night when no one is working? [anyone want to remember similar?]
regardless…. it will be rebuilt, and everyone will complain…
Shep was terrible on-air during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. He repeated every wild rumor about disorder in the city without verifying any of it. I noticed, when I was listening to him in my car after the Boston Marathon bombing, that he was being much more careful about reporting what were rumors and emphasizing what could be verified. Repeating any theory, without foundation, would be like MSNBC, etc. Possibly he was a little too short with this French official. I don’t believe they’ll be able to suppress factual reports about how this fire started.
Neo: On the symbolism, I think you are getting too far ahead.
I may be proven wrong, but the most likely culprit is the restoration project.
I am grateful that I was able to see Notre Dame before this happened. As I recall, my first thought was that it was smaller inside than I had imagined.
(Actually, that is pretty common for me. There is only one man-made artifact that wildly exceeded my imagination and that is also in Paris… the Eiffel Tower.)
After adjusting the scale of my expectations, I was simply in awe of the gracefulness of the structure. The adjective that kept repeating in my mind was “soaring”.
Roy Nathanson:
I wrote “Whichever it is, however, the symbolism of the decline of a great culture and a great religion springs obviously to mind.”
By “whichever” I meant that the symbolism is there whether the cause is accident or terrorism.
Not getting ahead of it at all. It’s almost certainly one or the other, is it not?
I don’t agree this is a symbolism of the decline of the western civilization, in contrary I see this as the foreshadowing of the rise of western civilization again. Phoenix rise from the ashes ring a bell? What doesn’t kill you make you stronger ring a bell?
What made 911 an omen was instead of rebuilding what once were there, they left the place empty with two square voids and made the ground zero memorial instead. I don’t get the decision, why indulge in the sadness of the past instead of moving on? The two black holes were ominous looking and frightening, America has never recovered because they kept the wounds open, it is just my opinion in the eye of an East Asian person, I apologize if my view contradicts the Western value in anyway and has unintentionally offended anyone.
Let this sound return as soon as possible
Dave:
Either interpretation is possible. At the moment, the fire certainly lends itself to the more destructive interpretation, but not so much because of the fire itself as because of the fact that Western Civilization (and certainly religion and the Catholic Church) appears to be in a decline. Therefore the fire and the decline are easy to link in the mind. If the West undergoes a rebirth of some sort, then the fire could come to symbolize that phoenix-like rebirth.
No need for you to apologize as far as I’m concerned. But I think a lot of people would say, regarding 9/11, that much of America has failed to remember it and that’s part of the problem.
Looking at more of the early images taken from different angles, it looks to me as though the fire began at approximately the roof juncture of one of the transepts with the nave roof, and then worked its way along the nave roof toward both the apse and the bell towers.
So I was wrong in imagining that the fire probably started in the roof over the sanctuary. There was plenty of the nave roof between the transepts and the apse not yet burning early on. Just could not see it from the video angle I was seeing.
I am going to be frank and just say it upfront that it would definitely be helpful for the right if it was a terrorist attack but let’s be real given that the fire originated in the renovating sections and the fire started at the roof but not the ground the place where usually arson started it is most likely accidentally. We are not liberals, we shouldn’t let wishful thinking destroy our reasons like them.
I cannot think of any as important [no doubt someone else will] which are not found in modern backwaters, or in former but no longer, imperial, cities.
The real treasure is Sainte Chapelle, which is older than Notre Dame, and was the church for the royals. It is magnificent. Notre Dame got famous again from Victor Hugo’s novel. It was gutted during the Revolution. Sainte Chapelle has been restored and we were able to visit soon after. Notre Dame is still important. My wife and I attended Mass there in the 80s and she was so enthralled, she thought about becoming Catholic.
“Western Civilization (and certainly religion and the Catholic Church) appears to be in a decline.”
The Catholic Church most certainly is and has been in institutional decline.
For whatever reason, and I don’t think it was just a matter of fallout from a certain type of men joining in an attempt to “blend-in”, the institutional Church effectively has become, and for a couple generations now, a nesting place for sexually perverse males seeking a comfortable niche: males who’ve recognized, enabled, mutually advanced, and defended each other, in the most cynical manner imaginable.
This then, is not simply a matter of a certain type of male being left in charge by default. In recent decades they have consciously sought it out for the opportunities it offers those who enjoy the panoply but are indifferent to the traditional moral precepts and doctrine.
These types have so effectively colonized the institutional Church, that they managed to keep tradition minded men who actually believed in the supernatural premises of the faith, out of the priesthood; on the basis that they were moral rigorists, intellectually rigid, and insufficiently “pastoral”.
In fact that homosexual infestation of the Roman church constitutes a kind of anti-church within it. An anti-church of, by, and for the benefit of a class of males who see it as a mere lifestyle, about half of which is to their liking, and about half of which – doctrine, morals, and faith – can be effectively ignored provided a minimal amount of lip service is paid.
“We are not liberals, we shouldn’t let wishful thinking destroy our reasons like them.”
And that’s why the losses will continue to mount.
Thanks for the update, Neo. It’s good to know at least the front towers have been saved, and I hope that means the window between them. The other rose windows exploded and are lost.
I also read a report that relics and artwork have been saved. I hope so.
Being unhinged like liberals will wipe out conservatives in a day, they have the high ground sniper cover from msm, conservatives don‘t. Remember the shooting of jews right before the election gave the house to the left surrendered all the momentum we gained from kavanaugh. If anything happens to omer trump can kiss 2020 goodbye, trump needs to send a team of secret agents to protect her 24/7 to prevent her pulling a smollett on herself to frame or false flag dems doing her harm to frame conservatives.
In fact that homosexual infestation of the Roman church constitutes a kind of anti-church within it.
Have you read Benedict’s letter ? I have been suspicious about his retirement since it occurred and did not believe the reason given.
Here is an apologia on it,. I don’t believe that, either.
Perhaps all is not lost in France. A report on the fire at the Washington Examiner says that people in Paris have been seen in the streets singing hymns.
If the right lies about this being a terrorist attack to score political points and gets debunked by the left with concrete evidence the right loses all credibility. The left can get away with it because they have the deathstar of MSM and we don’t, reason, like the force is our only weapon. Alex Jones’ way doesn’t work, it makes the right look like fools, same with the brither bs.
” It’s good to know at least the front towers have been saved, and I hope that means the window between them. ”
I just saw some pictures of the interior of the nave and it does not appear to be gutted. In fact, much of the vaulting seems to be intact.
I was under the impression that the transept wings were gutted and only the stone fronts remained, and assumed that the same went for the nave. But it does not look like the pews were set alight (contrary to media speculation) and it even looked like candles remained un-melted in their sconces.
I guess I was not clear in my mind on how much distance there was between the roof, and the vaulted “ceiling”. Apparently it was the old truss-work between the vaults and the roof that caught fire.
Here is a cutaway representation of a different cathedral. http://rolfgross.dreamhosters.com/Gothic/WestEurope/WestEurope_html_7d7cc165.gif
Perhaps it more or less represents a similar construction in Notre Dame. Looks like my barn’s trusses.
I’m not French, nor a Catholic; but, this is just heartbreaking.
There is something about certain places that transcend nation or religion that make them “world icons” – and Notre Dame de Paris fits that quite well.
Here’s to hoping the damage isn’t as bad as we imagine and that many of the artworks have survived; and that the outer walls may be safely standing to allow the cathedral to be re-built.
No I have not read it. And I doubt that I would easily believe much of anything in the way of interpretation that I read in that notorious rag, “America”, and would probably be predisposed to not believe it.
I did follow the link you provided, and the moment I saw the term “Donatist” my mind clouded over and I smelled misdirection … or unjustified hyperbole, at the least.
Though I have not followed the Vigano controversy as closely as many have, I recall nothing in the traditionalist position that questions the objective [from the Church’s point of view] validity and efficacy of the sacraments administered by a validly ordained priest: no matter what kind of reprobate the perverted son of a hell bound —– might have degenerated into.
Therefore the use of the term Donatist, is in my estimation, completely misplaced, and constitutes the calculated deployment of a term chosen for its imagined rhetorical effect.
No one not already in open schism or an admitted heretic, has so far as I know, taken the literal donatist position.
My mother, God bless her, was a sincere and intelligent Catholic. I myself went to a Jesuit University.
But when I see that petulant, imperious, potbellied, scowling Peronist, with his sidelong glances, his implicit anti-Anglo bigotry, and his coy references to ‘coprophages’, as a kind of cheaply gilded invective, I don’t see a Pope Gregory.
And if Francis really wants to be pastoral, rather than political, he ought to actually try reading Gregory’s letters …
As for Benedict, I suppose I will have to read the document itself.
Rod Dreher’s commentary is worth reading. He also links to video of members of the faithful singing Ave Maria while watching the cathedral burn, and an image of the cross that survived the fire. Reminded me of the cross-shaped beams that survived the fall of the twin towers:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/notre-dame-de-paris-sign-of-the-times/
The Church of Rome will be burned and Purified, come hell or high water. The church that persecuted and killed the saints of the Almighty, the Most High, is not going to last forever.
A good way to learn what’s going on in the Vatican and thus Europe is to look at Windswept House by Martin.
Oh yeah? Gee, OK. What persecuted saints of the Almighty the Most High, are they? By name ….
Since it is France, let’s start with Jean De Arc, DNW. Ever hear about her, boy?
I myself went to a Jesuit University.
That would explain things.
“The real treasure is Sainte Chapelle, which is older than Notre Dame, and was the church for the royals.” [Mike K @ 7:19 above]
One must be cautious with construction projects citing older/younger. Construction on Notre Dame Cathedral was begun well before the Construction of the Ste. Chapelle, but was finished after it. It is not unusual for cathedrals to span long construction times and, thus, include several dinstinct architectural styles as the times change around the continuing construction. The longest construction period on record is the Cathedral of Cologne (Wikipedia: “Construction of Cologne Cathedral began in 1248 but was halted in 1473, unfinished. Work did not restart until the 1840s, and the edifice was completed to its original Medieval plan in 1880.).
Cathedrals are very structurally complex and sophisticated. Back in the 1970s, Robert Mark, a civil engineer (died 04/11/2019) brought a new level of understanding to how they actually were able to stand by applying photoelastic stress analysis to cathedral cross sections. The following link is to one of his analyses specifically for Notre Dame. Is gives some idea of how complex these structures were. The colored areas on the cross-section show how stress is channeled and distributed throughout the structure.
One other note regarding the fire, most people have never seen the inside of these roofs on cathedrals. They are literally small forests of timber, sometime rising vertically 30 feet and higher and covering the entire length and breadth of the cathedral below.
Robert Mark photoelastic link:
https://www.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/styles/third_1x/public/images/2019/04/Image1.jpg?itok=t0oPrFpQ
He says in part:
It also happens when de-moralized men are afraid of the open contempt of women who are justifiably contemptuous of their self-indulgence and moral cowardice.
Of course there are many contributing factors to this moral flaccidity among men. But at least part of it is a taught fear of conflict.
What would that explain about your reluctance to name the “persecuted saints” of the Almighty the Most High?
Tell you what ymarsakar. I’ll check back in tomorrow for your list of the Church of Rome Persecuted Saints of the Almighty the Most High.
That will give you a chance to refer to whatever golden tablets or magical rocks or dusty compilations there are which you might need to consult.
No need to rush. Take your time.
It’s clear it’s terrorism. And it’s just another case. Churches has been targeted in France last weeks, though you won’t find that info in mainstream media.
This piece of news if from a couple of weeks ago:
https://www.rt.com/news/454472-arson-vandal-french-catholic-church/
“Catholic churches in France are being targeted with arson attacks, vandalism, desecration of holy statues, and the destruction of the Eucharist. The attacks have been happening since the start of the year.
The Church of St. Sulpice in Paris, where the Da Vinci Code movie was filmed, was set on fire just after midday mass on Sunday, Le Parisien reports. Firefighters and police said the blaze was an arson attack.
In February, a 19th century statue of the Virgin Mary was smashed at the St. Nicholas Catholic Church in Houilles. The statue was “completely pulverized,” Father Francois-Laurent Heart said. “It is irreparable.” The church reported three incidents in 10 days, with a cross also thrown on the floor by vandals.“
“The real treasure is Sainte Chapelle, which is older than Notre Dame, and was the church for the royals.” [Mike K @ 7:19 above] In 2015 when my husband and I were searching for a specific rosary, a request by a nun we are close to, at St. Chapelle, the man I asked made a very terse response that St. Chapelle is a state historic building…”not a church”! I have visited it (and Notre Dame) many times and when you read the history and meaning of the exquisite windows there, you can’t help but shake your head at the likes of this man. The windows are all erected in honor of the martyrs of the church. The crucifix there is particularly overwhelming, the angels holding the nails and so forth. Our 8 year old granddaughter lit a candle at Notre Dame last April (my daughter took a picture that is among my all-time favorites). Today when Annie and I looked at it, she burst out in tears.
My guess is that it was a “smart arson” attack that used careless reconstruction stuff to look like an accident, and to make it unlikely to find any evidence that it was arson (no empty gas cans just out of range).
Without strong evidence of arson, it will be called an accident.
This is certainly an omen of the decline of Christian based civilization. It is hugely (or just slightly?) based on the acceptance of homosexual priests and then acceptance of adult homosexual sex. Which is not illegal, unlike the pedophilia which law enforcement is being used to punish various pedophile priests, most of whom are homosexual. The Church does NOT seem to be getting rid of gay priests, but it needs to do so.
See how many priests died of AIDs.
The failure of the Church to integrate healthy marriage sexuality has created a Church culture of far too much hypocrisy.
This combines with the feminist capitalism unofficial de facto motto:
“Better a high paid wage-slave than a low paid mother”.
The West is suffering from a population neutron bomb — the buildings are left, but not the people. In Italy, where are the children? Or in France?
Oh, right — only the Muslims living in or near the “no-go” areas are having kids, lots of kids.
They are the future of France, and possibly of ex-Christian civ.
When young, I liked Ayn Rand. She, like many Libertarians (tho she was Rep), didn’t have children, nor even a faithful marriage.
Christian Capitalist civilization needs a rebirth of faithful marriages with more kids.
Christian European civ is definitely getting smaller, now. It might expand again.
Notre Dame. So beautiful and awesome, both. I only visited it once, in 1989, 200 years after the storming of the Bastille.
Maybe it really is just an accident.
Yammer is back with his hate for Catholics. Like a dog returning to it’s vomit, but with dogs it is instinct.
This is a breaking story…
I keep reading that line as “This is a heartbreaking story.” And it is.
Sainte Chapelle is more beautiful, but Norte Dame was far more majestic. I will withhold from guessing accident or terrorism and wait for a thorough investigation in the days ahead. A beautiful building has been severely damaged. Our French friends, none of which live in Paris, are very upset. If you have friends in France, reach out to them as this is a national tragedy. Notre Dame is like the Effiel Tower in that both are symbols of their nation.
Pingback:Notre Dame on Fire — Christianity is burning, will it burn down? – Tom Grey – Families, Freedom, Responsibility
French authorities are calling this an accident, not arson. This is plausible, although I am sure they will continue to interrogate the people who were on the scaffolding. Other buildings with the wood beams encased below and above have burned, as this one did, and once the beams catch fire there is little which can be done to stop it.
I was deeply moved by the photos of people praying and singing last night. I hope there may be a renewal of faith from this disaster.
A comment from the Islamists:
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2019/04/its-construction-began-in-year-1163-and.html
If it was arson by Islamic terrorists, they will know it. If the French authorities uncover evidence thereof, but shy away from presenting it, Islam will have won, and will go on to greater destruction of the West.
Will the French press report any instances of Muslims celebrating?
So it seems as the three rose windows are still intact:
https://hotair.com/archives/2019/04/16/notre-dame-lives/
If so, this is important news, not only because of their historic nature and complexity, but also because of what is implies about the fire. Stained glass windows are held together by lead channels called “came”. Lead has a relatively low melting point. So if the windows are intact it implies that the temperature reached by the fire at that level of the cathedral may not have been too intense. If true, this may also mean minimal structural damage to the stone vaulting and ribs. Inspections will tell the tale, but IMO it is a sign to be cautiously optimistic.
I’m not big on conspiracy theory’s, but could there be symbolism in the the date?
Boston Marathon bombings – April 15, 2013
Notre Dame cathedral burns – April 15, 2019
Fact: There have been an increasing number of Muslim terrorist attacks in France. *
Fact: In addition, according to reports, in recent days in France a lot of vandalism has occurred against, and fires have broken out in churches. **
Thus, pardon me if I don’t dismiss—out of hand—the possibility that this might have been an attack by Muslims, and not just simply an “accident.”
Of course, less than 24 hours in, the French authorities are calling this simply an “accident.”
I wouldn’t expect any other conclusion from French authorities because, to come to any other conclusion would throw a very bad light on the actual conditions in France, in Paris, on the authorities, and on their policies.
After all, these are some of the same people who have been denying that there are any “no-go” areas in France,** and who have been doing things like ignoring the many hundreds of cars that are burned some weekends, as the Muslim residents of the “benlieues,” the slums the French have very unwisely constructed around their cities—labeled only as “youths” in reporting on these orgies of destruction—come out to “play.”
These massive orgies of destruction are apparently the unremarkable “new normal” for the French.
In fact, in the article liked to below, a French sociologist asserts that burning a car is “not a militant act,” and the article as a whole tries to portray these massive car burnings as merely a “new French tradition.” Yay! ****
BTW—Throwing out the accusation made by unwanted/some cognitive dissonance causing information being just a “conspiracy theory” and, thus, morally wrong, false on it’s face, crazy, and impossible, is using what one of my old professors called a “thought stopper.”
That’s throwing a, usually, Leftist hand grenade of a word or phrase like “bigot,” “racist,” “white supremacist,” “white nationalist,” “sexist,” “Islamophobe,” “Nazi,” “crazy talk,” and now “conspiracy theory” into a discussion—a meme designed to blow the discussion up, to cut off and shut down any further analysis, discussion, and debate on the topic at hand and, instead, to divert attention away from the original topic, and onto the topic of the character, rationality, and supposed sins of the person who raised the question or accusation in the first place.
* See https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/europe-attacks.aspx
** See, for instance here at https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2019/03/20/twelve-french-churches-attacked-vandalized-in-one-week/ and also here at https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800
*** See https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones
**** See https://www.thelocal.fr/20180716/850-cars-torched-across-france-on-bastille-day-weekend
John—Yes, in fact, Muslims are very mindful of significant dates in their history.
Thus, for instance, I don’t think that it was just a coincidence that 9/11 was staged on the day it was.
You would think that the more astute and historically informed people here in the West would catch on to the fact that September 11th was the anniversary of the day in 1683—a very significant one for Muslims—on which a large army of Islamic Turks was defeated at the Gates of Vienna by Polish leader and later King, John Sobieski, and his Christian knights.
This was the fourth and last battle in a series of major battles by European Christians against invading Muslim forces—spread out over the course of almost a thousand years—that finally put an end to the threat of an Islamic invasion of Europe.*
But nooo, no one points this out, and no one remembers.
*These four major battles were, the battle of Tours (or Poitiers) outside of Paris in October of 732 A.D., the Siege of Vienna in Sept-Oct. 1529, the sea battle of Lepanto off the coast of Greece on October 7th, 1571, and then this final battle, again at Vienna.
I don’t deny the possibility of Islamist sabotage, given the recent history of attacks in France and desecration of French churches, but we do need to have evidence of that before making the charge.
Too many people are shooting off their mouths about this. Take this nauseating tweet from Bill Kristol, who has been making alliances with Jew-hating Democrats but takes this moment to denigrate the faith of Notre Dame’s builders:
https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/live-blog-230/entry-257858/
What would that explain about your reluctance to name the “persecuted saints” of the Almighty the Most High?
DNW on April 15, 2019 at 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm said:
Tell you what ymarsakar. I’ll check back in tomorrow for your list of the Church of Rome Persecuted Saints of the Almighty the Most High.
That will give you a chance to refer to whatever golden tablets or magical rocks or dusty compilations there are which you might need to consult.
No need to rush. Take your time.
What reluctance. I already named her. It’s my turn to ask questions now.
Take your time, you will need it to get ready.
https://www.thenewneo.com/2019/04/15/fire-in-notre-dame/#comment-2430819
A Jesuit education explains why you have a lack of compassion towards the victims of the ethnic cleansing periodically undertaken by State Churches to purify the Faith and to Save humanity.
Do you really think your triggered emotions are something My Eyes are blind to?
I know you saw my comment about Her. So unless you are the blind one, your heart and mind is such that you ignore the actual victims in order to self righteously feel something or other as you get triggered here. It is an interesting state. You have eyes but see not. You have ears but hear not. For if you did, you might become enlightened and saved from the discipline you sorely need in this life and the next.
Since it’s my turn to ask questions, let’s see how long it takes you to properly answer that one. The next thing you will be asked about concerns the Albigensians and crimes of humanity. Try to prepare for that one as well ahead of time before you need to be corrected by me, again.
Word salad.
P.S.–Up until now I had seen no reports here in the U.S. about vandalism and fires being set in French churches, but if the two articles linked below are to be believed, the situation is very bad indeed.
Last week it was the vandalizing of the oldest cathedral in France, the Basilica of St. Denis outside Paris, built during 1135-1219, the destruction of its stained glass windows, and the damage done to its 200 year old organ.
Funny thing about that, the first article linked below notes that this Basilica is situated in the middle of a Muslim no-go area.*
To quote the headline of the second article,
”Recent incidents have included a [deliberately set] fire in Saint-Sulpice church in Paris, human poo daubed on a wall in Notre-Dame-des-Enfacts in Nimes, and an organ vandalised at Saint-Denis basilica outside Paris.” **
According to this second article, the police have reported that 875 of the 42, 258 churches in France were vandalized last year, that there were 129 thefts reported from these churches, and that 59 cemeteries were also vandalized—and these figures are slightly down from last year!
Said one French MP, “every day at least two churches are profaned.”
Another surprising takeaway from this article is Historian Francois Huguenin’s contention that only 5% of Frenchmen are now practicing Catholics.
Could this percentage be correct? Maybe.
But this extremely small percentage just strikes me as way too low.
The article goes on to claim that it is “militant secularists” who are the ones responsible for these attacks.
Do I believe this ? Not really.
Are there so many “militant secularists” who feel so strongly about their “secularism” that they are going to take the trouble to vandalize almost a thousand churches in just one year?
That doesn’t seem very likely to me.
* See https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/03/800-year-old-french-basilica-of-st-denis-heavily-vandalized-in-no-go-suburbs-19th-century-stained-glass-windows-destroyed/
** See https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8804063/france-church-arson-attacks-vandalism-christian-heritage/
So Ymar, you say,
I then quote part of what you said there, and respond:
And you apparently then list as one of the Saints of the Almighty the Most High killed by the Church of Rome, as Joan of Arc.
You also later capitalize “Her” as if she is a divinity herself. I don’t know what book of secret history you are getting your information from, but Joan was captured by the Burgundians, sold to the English, and tried by a pro English cleric.
A few quotes on the matter taken from Wiki and arranged for your edification,
Now, since you have labeled Joan one of the persecuted saints of the Almighty the Most High, and she was in fact declared a martyr by the head of the church you accused of persecuting her, you got as they say, “some ‘Splaining to do”.
And since you have declared Joan to be a saint, I might as well include a passage taken from Wiki which quotes one of Joan’s letters to those who rejected the authority of the Church of Rome, i.e., some Czech proto-protestants. That will be in my next comment.
Taken from Wiki, we find the following quote excerpted from a letter of Joan of Arc, a young woman declared by commenter “ymarsakar”, to be one of the persecuted Saints of the Almighty the Most High.
Here is what Joan was said to have said to some dissenters from the authority and doctrines of the Church of Rome.
I’ll leave it to you to surmise how Joan of Arc, denominated by you to have been a Saint of the Almighty the Most High, would have dealt with the Bogomils. Even if some of these Gnostic Manicheans were not necessarily the suicidal buggerers they were reputed to be.
I’ll leave it to you to surmise how Joan of Arc, denominated by you to have been a Saint of the Almighty the Most High, would have dealt with the Bogomils. Even if some of these Gnostic Manicheans were not necessarily the suicidal buggerers they were reputed to be.
*Clap Clap* You have uncovered your eyes and a scale has fallen from it, even though several thousand dragon’s teeth and scales remain. At least you have remembered who Jean De Arc is… took you long enough DNC. See what happens when your little petty emotions get the better of you.
Not something you want to be playing around with when conversing with those at my level.
https://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=295
Even the Catholics and Popes and whatever jesuits do not disagree with me.
It is always nice to use pro X sources to force Pro Xers to banish their double think in a panic of systematic denial.
I have answered one question of DNC’s and addressed another one on good faith.
I await your Answer, mortal. I hope you have not forgotten how to conduct a conversation, human. It is your turn to answer, don’t forget that along with the rest of your existence.
You know you love it, Omni, as you keep reading me ; )
Not even your amnesia will allow you to forget what you are dealing with.
I don’t know what book of secret history you are getting your information from, but Joan was captured by the Burgundians, sold to the English, and tried by a pro English cleric.
For those that don’t understand the historical timeline, the Church of England was non existent at that time.
It is not unusual for the NKVD to kill a person as a Fascist, only later to rehabilitate them as a hero of the Marxist Revolution when it was politically expedient to do so. Human organizations tend to do this trick more often than not. Even the United States descends to this corruption when it comes to statues of Lee. At one time Lee was ostracized and suppressed by the remaining Southern aristocracy, only later to be canonized as a progressive war hero of the South, and then even later to be condemned by the same descendants of the Demoncrats that used and suppressed Lee’s line.
Humanity’s corruptions and evils are too complicated for me to document and explain in one go.
More word salad, even funnier than Manju, bless his soul, and that is saying a lot.
Omni I thought you were returning to the word salad vomit? See, I told you you liked it, even though you say you hate it, you keep reading it.
It’s hard to know whether you like the devil more than Christianity. Although if you were a Roman Christian of the Jesuit schools, it would explain things.
ymarsakar, no one … no one apart from you that is, has mentioned, or referred to the Church of England.
I don’t know what your native language or culture is, and I don’t know what mystery religion, or sect, or crackpot theosophical doctrine it is that you embrace, but whatever it is, it has rendered you impervious to the liberating effects of factual information.
For you to speak of or on behalf of Christianity, its common doctrines, or its history as if you actually knew something about it, rather than what you had read about it in some esoteric work of pseudo-history, is blisteringly ironic.
You posited Joan as a Roman Church persecuted, saint of ‘the Almighty the Most High’.
I showed that the historical record notes that Joan was captured by the Burgundians, sold to the English, subjected to a mockery of an ecclesiastical inquisition promoted by the English, tried and judged by an English sympathizing cleric in violation of Roman Church law; and then killed by the English.
I also showed that it was that the pope of the very Roman Church which you accused of persecuting her, which examined the records of that invalidly convened and carried out trial, and then declared her both innocent and a martyr.
You then, in response, wander off with defensive speculations about what you suppose to be parallels with the practices of the NKVD, and with the postmortem historical image and status of Robert E Lee.
I did not mention it, but she was eventually canonized as a saint by the Roman Church. One can only wonder what authority then, it was that informed you that Joan of Arc was a saint. Moroni, perhaps?
Whoever it was, perhaps they can convince you to read slowly and carefully, and to look, before leaping.
I only have your best interest at heart. Really. That near lunatic raving cannot be doing you any more good, than it is doing for anyone else.
Sincerely,
DNW
The bells of Notre Dame have rung and ymarsakar, like Pavlov’s dog, has shown up.
He popped in looking for Esmeralda? Or maybe he lost something in the belfry.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/nuns-as-sex-slaves/
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/qvyky3/pope-francis-admits-catholic-priests-used-nuns-as-sex-slaves
It’s always nice when the human organization that calls itself the Catholic church, the Vatican even, agrees with my points. I half suspect the pushback and weak arguments I get here whenever I mention the Vatican has to do with their Jesuit education, their emotional loyalty to this human organization, and their other feelings.
It’s pretty obvious when a person has emotions that they pretend is logical arguments vs when they are more rational and stable. In that context, perhaps it is not so good an idea to be talking with someone of my level, while emotionally disturbed and upset by events outside your mortal control.
Definitely lost something in the belfry.
Um, before you guys get a bit over-philosophical with one another, you might want to consider this (from the “There-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I” files):
https://twitter.com/nickusen/status/1118253255195275265