Remember Pearl Harbor: 77th anniversary
Today is the seventy-sixth anniversary of the December 7, 1941 Pearl Harbor attack. The generation that reacted to it by mobilizing and fighting World War II is on its last legs. But they were the ones we still call “the Greatest.”
I was reminded of this while watching one of those Oliver North “War Stories” TV shows, about Pearl Harbor. It featured some of the elderly participants reminiscing about that long ago day. Before each one spoke, there was a photograph of him back in 1941: young, vibrant, handsome, full of life. Now they were ancient, and most only vaguely resembled their former selves. But they still transmitted great moral strength and a kind of Gary-Cooperesque stoicism and understated bravery as they told their stories.
One year ago there were still quite a few WWII veterans alive:
The Department of Veterans Affairs doesn’t have data on veterans of individual battles, and an alumni association for the battle disbanded in 2011, at the 70th anniversary, when it believed just 8,000 of the 84,000 uniformed Americans on Oahu during the attack remained alive. Since 2011, roughly half of veterans of World War II who were alive then have died, according to VA projections, leaving fewer than 700,000 alive today. Roughly 400 American WWII veterans die each day. The VA projects fewer than 3,000 veterans of WWII will survive to the 100th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, and that may be optimistic…
That was written one year ago, and obviously the number of Pearl Harbor veterans alive has only gotten smaller—as it will every year until the number is zero. And then, we will still remember? In fact, do most of us remember Pearl Harbor now? Time marches on, and even 9/11 has faded into the background for most people.
A couple of facts: it’s become fashionable to believe that FDR knew about the attack in advance and let it happen anyway. But those 12/7-truthers are almost undoubtedly wrong. Roosevelt wanted to get us into the war, and he knew a Japanese attack was coming at some point, and informed his generals to that effect, but he knew none of the particulars in advance.
This idea of a government in cahoots with the enemy, willing to let innocent Americans die, keeps coming up again and again. A certain not insignificant segment of the population appears to favor such conspiracy theories, probably because we don’t like feeling vulnerable to sudden attack.
Here’s a post I published ten years ago on Pearl Harbor Day. It focuses on FDR’s famous speech afterward, and the will and resolve he amply demonstrated. Will and resolve in war remain extremely relevant these days.
Here is just a little bit of Roosevelt’s post-Pearl Harbor speech, in case we need reminding of what American resolve used to sound like:
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.
Here’s the speech itself:
The memorable phrase that began FDR’s address, “a date which will live in infamy,” wasn’t in Roosevelt’s earlier draft. It reads “a date which will live in world history.” That sounds like a high school essay; Roosevelt crossed out “world history” and added “infamy” in his own hand. He also changed “simultaneously and deliberately attacked” to “suddenly and deliberately attacked.”
Wise choices.
[NOTE: This is a somewhat updated version of a previous post.]
[ADDENDUM: Somewhere, somehow, I lost a year. I originally labeled this day as being the 76th anniversary, which of course is incorrect.]
In fact, do most of us remember Pearl Harbor now?
One could do worse than watch Herman Wouk’s “The WInds of War” and “War and Remembrance” brought to the screen starring the incomparable (and occasionally infamous) Robert Mitchum.
The Pearl Harbor attack is the hinge between the two books and TV mini-series.
Could those shows be made today? I have my doubts.
Roosevelt wanted to get us into the war, and he knew a Japanese attack was coming at some point, and informed his generals to that effect, but he knew none of the particulars in advance.
The Japanese made a strategic blunder comparable to Chamberlain’s Polish Guarantee. Had they gone for Indochina and Indonesia (the Dutch East Indies), we might never have declared war. The public was not enthusiastic about going to war against Germany. The Japanese thought the Philippines were on their flank and they could not tolerate that. Even an attack on the Philippines might not have been enough to get us into the war.
Marshall sent a “War Warning” a week before the attack but the commanders had fatal apathy. I have been very critical of Halsey but Halsey had been running his carriers on a war footing for weeks. That’s why they were at sea that morning.
One could do worse than watch Herman Wouk’s “The WInds of War” and “War and Remembrance” </i
One of my medical students’ father was the producer of that series. I’ve read the books ten or 15 times. Wouk will be 103 in January.
huxley — “Could those shows be made today?”
Of course not! The U.S. wins the war!
My understanding was that FDR was against U.S. embroilment in WWII in the earlier years. Churchill was desperate for U.S. support and requested that some of our Navy’s more aged destroyers be turned to the U.K. and was denied. Supposedly FDR thought that the U.K. didn’t have either the will or capability to survive the German attacks.
Paris had already fallen to the Germans, but much of the French navy was still under the command of Adm. Darlan who promised the U.K. that ships under his command would never be turned over to the Germans. Churchill was worried that Darlan’s promise wouldn’t hold up, and he thought that a show of force might convince FDR that the U.K. had the will to fight.
So in July 1940, Churchill launched the attack on Mers-el-Kabir and sunk one French battleship, and damaged 5 other ships, and killed just under 1,300 French sailors. Then FDR was convinced of the U.K.’s will to fight, and lent our support to the war effort.
Hollywood spent a bundle in 2001 to produce Michael Bay’s “Pearl Harbor” film. Bay is certainly not the best director. Most of the critics, pro and arm-chair, hated the film, and many suggested watching Tora Tora Tora instead.
I found Tora Tora Tora to be relentlessly gritty, and even though the romance-in-a-war-film of Pearl Harbor was a cheesy rip-off of Jim Cameron’s Titanic, it worked for me in terms of providing emotional respite and variation. While there were a few notable historic gaffes in Pearl Harbor, many of the seemingly cheesy inaccuracies were in fact accurate.
One of my medical students’ father was the producer of that series. I’ve read the books ten or 15 times. Wouk will be 103 in January.
Mike K: Good for him! Didn’t know Wouk was still alive.
I only read the books once, but found them riveting. I especially enjoyed Pug Henry’s letters to FDR in which he presented his insights about the war (which I assume overlapped Wouk’s) then contrasted those with Admiral von Roon’s analysis from the German side. I could tell Wouk put a lot of thought and research into those books beyond telling a cracking good story.
Mike K:
Admiral Kimmel ordered Halsey to reinforce the defenses of Wake Island by ferrying planes there on 11/28/1941 using the USS Enterprise. The USS Lexington was sent to reinforce the defenses of Midway Island by ferrying planes (also ordered by Admiral Kimmel?) Those the two carriers were sent from Pearl Harbor and weren’t back at port on December 7, 1941. It was Admiral Kimmel’s decision. The same Kimmel that get’s much the blame for Pearl Harbor IIRC.
Here are some sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Halsey_Jr.
“With tensions high and war imminent, U.S. Naval intelligence indicated Wake Island would be the target of a Japanese surprise attack. In response, on 28 November 1941 Admiral Kimmel ordered Halsey to take USS Enterprise to ferry aircraft to Wake Island to reinforce the Marines there. Kimmel had given Halsey “a free hand” to attack and destroy any Japanese military forces encountered.[9] The planes flew off her deck on December 2. Highly anxious of being spotted and then jumped by the Japanese carrier force, Halsey gave orders to “sink any shipping sighted, shoot down any plane encountered.” Protested his operations officer, “Goddammit, Admiral, you can’t start a private war of your own! Who’s going to take the responsibility?” Said Halsey: “I’ll take it! If anything gets in my way, we’ll shoot first and argue afterwards.”
https://www.quora.com/Why-were-there-no-aircraft-carriers-in-Pearl-Harbor-on-the-day-of-the-attack
“Where were the US carriers during the attack at Pearl Harbor?
There were only TWO carriers based at Pearl Harbor during the time of the attack, Not THREE as many tend to claim.
USS Enterprise
USS Lexington
USS Saratoga was based on the West Coast, Had just completed a months long overhaul in Bremerton WA, and was in San Diego during the attack. She was due to be transferred to Pearl Harbor, but after the attack.
So where were Enterprise and Lexington during the attack?
Both were at sea and on identical missions, ferrying aircraft to island outposts.
Enterprise had delivered aircraft to Wake Island and was on her way home to Pearl. In fact she should have bee in Pearl on the 6th, the day before the attack but her advance was slowed by the same storm front that the Japanese used to cover their approach. Instead she was expected in on the afternoon of the 7th, and was very close by. So close in fact that a handful of her aircraft had flown off early to return to shore bases and actually arrived overhead during the attack and participated in the battle. Taylor and Welsh were not the only US pilots airborne that morning and fighting the Japanese in the air.
Lexington had not yet delivered her aircraft to Midway and was still travelling to Midway when the attack took place.
She turned around and started returning to Pearl to try and find the Japanese. Enterprise, supposed to pull in on the 7th, stayed out and was also looking for the Japanese.
Neither Carrier (luckily) found the Japanese and both returned to port a couple days later.
I say luckily because if either carrier found the Japanese it would likely have been destroyed in a 6 vs 1 carrier fight.”
Wouk’s novels are excellent. And are based on reality. FDR, imo, was the CINC needed for that dangerous time despite his progressive POV. But the one who carried the torch of freedom was Winston, the political opposite of FDR.
“We will fight them on the beaches….” The man privileged to roar. What an interesting character strutting on the stage.
I lost uncles I never knew in WW2, and one aunt. RIP. I fly the flag on 7/4, 12/7, 6/4, and 9/11. Never forget and teach your grandchildren their heritage.
The answer to the question states:
“I say luckily because if either carrier found the Japanese it would likely have been destroyed in a 6 vs 1 carrier fight.”
It is important that in December 1941 the Japanese aircraft were superior to those of the US Navy; tactics to counter the Zero were not developed until mid-1942 (the Thatch weave), the US Army thought B17s could counter carriers, and the US Navy torpedo planes and torpedoes were ineffectual.
om,
I don’t know the time frames, but it became an infamous story of the U.S. Navy in WWII, that something in excess of 80% of the early torpedoes were duds. Extensive testing in Hawaii proved the design or manufacture of the trigger mechanism faulty. (They didn’t test them from the get-go??)
TommyJay:
The defects in the US Navy Mark 14 torpedo (running too deep, magnetic exploder going off too soon, torpedo circling back (guidance problem), and contact exploder not going off unless the “fish” hit the target at glancing angle) were not solved until September 1943. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo
Oh they (US Navy in Rhode Island) tested them (the Mk 14) but not well, nor thoroughly. It seems to have been a case of not enough money in the ’30s (for testing).
77th anniversary, right?
My wife says she remembers December 7th, 1941 and actually feared that the Japanese would attack Jacksonville, Fl. I don’t.
I do remember when my father, older cousins, and older neighbor “boys” went. I recall vividly the night that our next door neighbor’s college age son came over to show us his spanking new AAF uniform and wings. I also vividly recall his hysterical mother when she learned that he was dead at New Guinea. His father was phlegmatic, but no doubt experienced equal pain. I don’t recall the immediate reaction of the neighbors across the street when their oldest son went missing over Germany. They had immigrated from (British) Honduras, and their names had a Germanic ring. Regardless, they shared the sacrifice. I remember when my “hero” cousin came home after surviving his allotted missions with the 8th Air Force. It was only years later that I came to understand what that meant, and how unlikely it was. (He took me on my first airplane ride after the war, and launched a career.)
We did not know the geo-political circumstances that precipitated the war. They were basically irrelevant to our lives as far as we knew. The depression was the central fact before 12/7/41. All we knew was that we were attacked, and the men went; and many did not return. So, I also had a ring side seat for the anxiety and suffering of the women who waited, although I did not appreciate that at the time. I witnessed the strain of Mothers to care for families on the meager allotments that the government provided to family men at war; but, again was shielded, and thought that everyone shared the burden. They didn’t.
The War was a defining historic event; but, for those who lived it, it was personal.
FDR & his NSC — he founded it, de facto, prior to Pearl Harbor — NEVER expected that the IJN would seriously wound the USN at Pearl.
That’s what folks can’t get their heads around.
Yes, FDR wanted the attack… but figured we’d slap the IJN silly. It would be win-win-win — with the Axis losing.
BTW, our own NSA and its priors have been caught out lying about the level of American intercepts REPEATEDLY over the decades.
American ignorance doesn’t even pass the laugh test.
The ENTIRE reason that Echelon// Five Eyes exists is due to the legacy of WWII and British decryption of American signals — and vice versa. So they decided to get married — instead. That marriage has lasted since late 1942 is is the PRIMARY reason the Axis were defeated in WWII — and the USSR in WWIII — and it’s still the primary weapon in WWIV. ( ie GWOT )
The transhipment of planes to Midway was not Kimmel’s idea. He received his sailing orderes from the CNO in Washington. They weren’t – after all – ‘his’ planes.
We even went to the expense of building an aircraft carrier for the specific purpose of shifting USAAC planes around the Pacific. (CV-7 Wasp ) In the event it was used to trasport Spitfires for the British in the European Theatre. (Malta run) It had all manner of ‘trick’ provisions for handling non-USN fighter planes, BTW.
It is FALSE that the IJN stayed off the air waves. They COULDN’T. There was a huge storm way up north near Alaska that scattered their attack fleet. This caused their admiral to go on the air to bring the ships back into order. Dozens and dozens of radio calls were made.
So much for secrecy. Even the Canadians radio-direction found the fleet.
Nimitz was promoted from head of personel to become CincPac. For those unaware, the head of personel was a CAPTAIN’S — dead end — position until it was forced upon Nimitz. He was promoted to Rear Admiral. He was verbally instructed to build his roster to fight the Pacific War… and that he was ALREADY slated to be the new CincPac. Kimmel was a lowly regarded pigeon… a place holder. He was the ‘only’ officer that the USN could find that would take the position at the time. ( of suitable seniority and rank ) Even in the shadow of war, the Pacific Fleet was a step-child. All of the funding and action was going to the brand new fleet that was being built. Virtually EVERY BB at Pearl was slated for the breakers… within months. ( the visible budget cycle ) They were to be replaced with BBs at least six knots faster… some as many as 12 knots faster. (!) For a career man, the logic was obvious: hover in Washington and grease your connections to get aboard these new super-ships which will require twice the manning of the WWI BBs.
As for the Carrier oriented officers, Pearl was ‘full up.’
For those not aware, the non-USN aircraft at Midway were brought there by carrier — unless they had the range: B-17. Non-carrier planes were a PITA to shift when the Wasp was not ready to hand. The pressure of the European Theature kept Wasp in the Atlantic at a time when the USN figured it would be available for the Pacific. Just one of those things.
BTW, the B-17s landing during the Pearl attack were a WEEK LATE. Their commander was ‘sent down’ for the delay. They were expressly supposed to begin reccon missions IMMEDIATELY for the IJN fleet.
We’d just set up a top secret radar set on the north coast of Oahu. It had JUST been set up. Just in the nick of time for its readings to be ignored by a naval officer. Yeah, he was sent down, too.
The BBs were largely EVACUATED for the attack morning. This evacuation sent crews to every other island for additional training.
What a co-incidence.
Neo, it’s the 77th anniversary. 😉
Lastly, the USN’s experts had every reason to expect that the BBs were invulnerable from torpedo attack. The harbor was THAT shallow and the distance available for launch was THAT short. The IJN found a work-around.
Whoops.
In sum: FDR & Co were not dummies. They’d taken every step possible to protect the fleet without betraying the fact that they were reading the IJN’s mail.
That was the other limitation. You CAN’T advertize to the enemy that you know too much.
It turned out that the fiasco saved countless American lives. We performed so poorly that the IJN could NEVER believe that we were reading their e-mail.
This led directly to the super success of Midway and many another battle.
And, ultimately, the entire campaign. Tokyo never tumbeled to the fact that we were reading her e-mails.
BTW, Kimmel and Short were CUT OFF from Washington’s intercepts for the final seven days. WHAT a co-incidence. Kimmel had no local code-breaking capability — also not a co-incidence. ALL of the key decisions were being taken in Washington.
Lastly, Kimmel got in REALLY HOT WATER because he sailed the fleet — against CNO orders ( and FDR’s) into the Pacific — and swirled around the sub-sea mount from which the IJN launched their attacks the NEXT WEEK.
If this were to be attempted while the IJN was actually there, all of the ships would’ve been lost. Kimmel set himself up for a courts martial! His ultimate trial was shifted from this epic boner to the Pearl attack. ALL of this was kept from the American public for decades on end.
INRE the USN torpedoes…
They only got fixed after a Nazi torpedo ended up on a Florida beach! Kept ultra secret for the longest time, both the Americans and Germans used virtually the same logic for their torpedoes — namely the intent for both was to swim underneath the keel of the victim and detonate there. Fall back detonation mechanisms were included, such as direct impact. But that was strictly back-up.
If the German torpedoes had functioned properly, the RN would’ve lost a staggering number of ships around Narvik. The German units even hit the far fjord and STILL did not detonate. The boys came back howling.
A local Floridian notified the FBI that a Nazi torpedo was on her beach. She was ignored for D A Y S. What had happened is that its battery had run entirely flat, causing it to be inert. Further, its secondary — impact — detonator had nothing to touch it, the beach was that shallow. Whoops.
It was THIS torpedo that blew the American naval mind. For the Nazi weapon could’ve just about double as a clone of America’s. Who blabbed?
The USN was starting to get feed-back from the RN about German duds. (Enigma protests) Taken all together, some guys finally woke up. The cure took us until late 1943. (!!!!!!!!) Yup.
That’s why the IJN thought they were still ‘in it’ — and then the roof caved in.
Blert:
You left out where the IJN got the clue about the feasibility of aerial tropedo attacks on ships in shallow water harbors. The Royal Navy at the Battle of Tatanto on 11/14/1940.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto
“It is likely the Imperial Japanese Navy’s staff carefully studied the Taranto raid during planning for the attack on Pearl Harbor because of the issues with a shallow harbour.”
BTW the US Navy officers who broke the IJN code were in Honolulu.
http://www.armory.com/~vern/personal/taney/taney.jpg
My personal connection to the attack. She wasn’t decommissioned until 1986 and is now a museum ship in Baltimore. Neo, you should go look her up sometime. Really, you all should. I would but I remember her before she was a museum. My dad was a Coastie and I remember her from the island in the SF bay when she was active. I believe the last survivor of attack at Pearl. In any case you can see in the pic she’s by the clock tower, which was not of course at the Naval base but the commercial/tourist port.
About the time the Taney was decommissioned I became commissioned. In the USN. In which like my dad I became lifer. I used to brag (not really seriously) that my mere presence would keep the bad guys away.
Not hardly, huh? So why are we kept on the leash? Unleash us (I keep using the word “we” as I am now in the Fleet Reserve and subject to recall and am only too happy to answer the call) and WE will destroy them.
Blert:
So the US Navy didn’t expect the IJN to be a sharp as the British? Unfortunately, the US Navy had a pretty steep learning curve against the IJN as witnessed by the actions at Guadalcanal in late 1942.
Blert said:
“BTW the US Navy officers who broke the IJN code were in Honolulu.”
I highly recommend …
https://www.usni.org/store/books/battle-midway/joe-rochefort
…if ylu want to learn about the code breakers contribution to our victory.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukah to all. They remain on watch.
I don’t pretend I speak for Blrert or anyone else, om, but yes it was a steep learning curve. It wasn’t necessarily a BAD THING as many officers quickly observed looking over the smoking wreckage of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl. The Japanese had, by destroying the battleships, rendered the fleet into a thirty knot from a seventeen knot fleet.
This wasn’t a result of any strategic genius on anyone’s part. As they were still fighting the fires they had to ask themselves, “What do we still have, and how do we use it?”
It was never a question that we wouldn’t use what was left.
As the Japanese hoped.
We are getting a little far afield from our host’s intent, aren’t we? I’ll be happy to discuss our use of B-17s any day of the week. But if I gather correctly, Neo is driving at the sheer human tragedy of Pearl. That day, which ended lots of days.
Most only know of Pearl Harbor on that fateful day 77 years ago. Clark Field, Guam, Wake, Shanghai, Singapore and other places were on the receiving end, as well – Pearl Harbor was the centerpiece but by no means the only destruction. My father was an airplane mechanic at Clark Field, and quickly became an infantryman as there weren’t planes left to work on.
I note this quotation:
“The VA projects fewer than 3,000 veterans of WWII will survive to the 100th anniversary of Pearl Harbor”
To survive to that point, one would have to be well into one’s second century of life. Granted, medical tech, etc., but still, I’d be amazed if even a tithe of this projected number were to make it to that point. Did the VA check their math when writing that?
My Dad was on the USS Tangier, a Seaplane Tender, at the time of the attack. His ship was tied up next to the USS Utah. The Utah was sunk and still has men on her, like the Arizona. He went on to other battles in the Pacific. Sadly I lost him in 2007 at age 89. Miss him still.
It is instructive to rehash the errors that preceded Pearl Harbor. When doing so, it is well to recall that the Nation, along with much of the world, had not yet emerged from a devastating depression. The Japanese Imperial government, and the German Nazi government had focused their resources on preparing for war, while the democracies were focused on the welfare of their citizens. The military and its supporting industries were neglected in favor of “public works”, and were no more than hollow shells.
Meanwhile, the promotion systems of the U.S. Army and Navy had become almost completely stagnant, so that much of the higher commands were past their prime (to put it euphemistically). Yet buried in the ranks, and ready to take up the mantle of leadership, were the likes of Nimitz, Halsey, Mitscher, Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton; along with a host of others. There was also a hard core at the top like Marshall and King.
If one is inclined to cite the shortcomings that prevailed on 12/7/1941, then the amazing industrial and military accomplishments that occurred during the very short period between 1942 and 1945 must also be acknowledged. There will never again be anything like the miracle that was produced by a united, focused, and free society.
I’ve noted the comments on the misdating in the headline (due to being a recycled post, no doubt), but it made me think anyway of that quintesentially American musical, “The Music Man.”
The song “Seventy-Six Trombones” is a grandiose projection of how the divided, petty, self-centered citizens of a small town became the “united, focused, and free society” that produced the miracle of victory in WWII.
Is it a coincidence that Meredith Willson chose ’76 as the magic number?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBQWsBiM5YY
Steve57:
Blert made errors regarding the role of old battleships (BBs) sunk/severely damaged at Pear Harbor and the faster battleships that followed. Many of the old BBs at Pearl Harbor were raised from the harbor bottom, repaired and put back into action later in the war in a shore bombardment role. There were other BBs laid down in 1937, 38, 39 and launched in 1940-1941; USS South Dakota, USS North Carolina, and USS Washington for example, that saw action in the South Pacific in 1942. Specifically in naval battles supporting operations at Guadalcanal. The last of the fast +30 knot BBs, the USS Missouri was laid down on 6/1/1941 before Pearl Harbor.
om…
The older BBs were scheduled for the breakers.
It was the Pacific War that kept thim afloat.
They couldn’t sail with the attack fleet, just the amphib fleet.
Lost in most accounts: the crews of most of the BBs were AWAY on training — even as far as the Big Island. The Arizona was one of the VERY few BBs that was in operational condition. Even she was in inboard BB. She had a heavy cruiser astride her — that had no effect. She was blown up by (dive) bombs from directly overhead.
FDR, Stark and all the rest were stupefied when the battle results leaked back to Washington. The numbers were so shocking that Stark was kicked to the Atlantic — and an official USN investigation was launched.
This was the crew that ripped Kimmel and Short a fresh one.
Read also: The Great Pacific War … Hector C. Bywater (heh)
ISBN 0-312-06364-4
In this ‘quasi-fictive’ 1925 book you’ll discover ALL of Yamamoto’s brilliant attack plans. Yes even the invasion beaches in the Philippines used by the IJN are detailed in this quasi-fictive tome.
THIS IS THE BOOK that caused Short to put all of the USAAC fighting machinens in the middle of the runway. Yup.
It’s also the tome that predicted a Battle of Yap — today known as Midway.
The fictive battle was to be the turning point in the naval war.
Bingo!
( Yap and Midway are in the middle of no-where. )
Blert:
You missed it again. The old BBs at Pearl Harbor may have been scheduled for the breakers but somehow, for some reason, the USN still had use for them in the shore bombardment role, in both oceans. Not just the Pacific theater (there was that thing that happened at Normandy).
All the other BBs were laid down before the attack at Pearl Harbor. Loose the all caps. Most of the Pacific is the middle of nowhere.
“…most of the Pacific is in the middle of nowhere.”
Indeed it is. I have made patrols in the Pacific where the nearest land was almost 1000 miles away. (Hide with pride!) I like to tell people that I have been about as far out in the middle of nowhere as is possible and still be on planet Earth.
“…most of the Pacific is in the middle of nowhere.”
The Pacific is a big ocean. I was on a WW2 destroyer out of Pearl Harbor in the 1960s. We deployed to beautiful SE Asia and as you steam across the Pacific at 16 knots economy cruise it seems like the trip is going last forever. You start to think that you are doomed to sail the ocean forever like the Flying Dutchman.
When they were filming Tora Tora Tora we were moored at the destroyer piers and had a front row seat for the filming.
Maybe now is a good time to say this…to all you veterans, “Thank You.”
We spent yesterday at the WWII Museum in New Orleans. Exceptionally well done. Very informative and poignant. It was quite amazing the way the whole country rallied behind the war effort. And what the soldiers faced….my late father-in-law flew 43 missions asa bombardier in the Pacific theatre. He was 22 years old. His father, a career Army officer, was in Europe, and after the war was an architect of the Berlin airlift. I can’t imagine the government, business leaders, and ordinary Americans rallying together today as was done in the 1940s. I’d love to be wrong.
Berkeley Bob on December 8, 2018 at 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm said:
…I can’t imagine the government, business leaders, and ordinary Americans rallying together today as was done in the 1940s. I’d love to be wrong.
* * *
I think you could turn out to be wrong, but it would take a major war that we were all willing to admit is a war, and the losses would be horrendous.
More and more, I understand why the Old Testament cycle of peace, prosperity, and applied-paganism always ends in war and disaster.
Nothing else brings home the message that we’ve screwed things up again.
om…
I didn’t miss ‘it.’
You type faster than you read.
Blert. Spinning all the tales of what was supposed to happen to the old BBs, plans made before the attack on Pear Harbors, is wasted. When the war actually came the USN needed the old BBs and they served an essential role. You might want to read up on the Battle of Suriago Strait where the old BBs weren’t just laying ordnance on real estate:
“As the Japanese Southern Force approached the Surigao Strait, it ran into a deadly trap set by the U.S. 7th Fleet Support Force. Rear Admiral Jesse Oldendorf had a substantial force. There were six battleships: West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, California, and Pennsylvania. All but Mississippi had been sunk or damaged in the attack on Pearl Harbor and repaired, Tennessee, California, and West Virginia having been rebuilt. …..”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf#Battle_of_Surigao_Strait_(25_October_1944)
There were other USN ships and boats involved in that night action, and it did not go well for the IJN, You might want to read “The Battle of Leyte Gulf” by T. J. Cutler ISBN0-06-016949-4.
To me what actually happened is more interesting that speculation about what was planned to happen.
om…
You seem to lack comprehension: the BBs were slated to be entirely replaced by the new stuff.
When the war came, they got a new lease on life.
The USN never intended to use the BBs as ground bombardment — not originally. However, this secondary mission became their sole reason for being. The old BBs didn’t even shoot at IJN aircraft — for the amphib fleet was kept shielded by the attack fleet.
Until hostilities, there wasn’t any money in the budget to even man the old ships. It was anticipated that even in expansion, Congress would not fund operations with the old ships, since they’d be too slow to face off with the IJN.
The IJN had virtually no BBs left that couldn’t sail away from or chase down our WWI battleships to suit their fancy. This policy made perfect sense. When your fleet is smaller you’d better be able to bob and weave.
Like the Germans, the Japanese were the first to re-arm in a significant way after the hiatus of the inter-war years. And their first priority was to up their fleet speed.
The big slower ships that so many anticipated in their war games // plans had become relics.
Steve57…
The critical pre-attack code-breaking was performed in Washington — not Pearl Harbor.
Obviously, all of that changed after Pearl Harbor.
Pearl never did get their assigned Purple Machine. It went to London, instead.
It was much more valuable to Britain than America, for Purple gave away Hitler’s strategic visions — straight through to the end. He just could not stop blabbing to the Baron.
Blert:
You ignore what doesn’t fit you narrative. The newer BBs were all laid down before Pear Harbor, the last was commissioned in 1944. The newest BBs mostly defended the carriers from air attack BTW. Read “The Fleet at Flood Tide: America at Total War in the Pacific, 1944-1945” by James D. Hornfischer.
“Obviously, all of that changed after Pearl Harbor.” Some differ about where the cryptography breakthroughs regarding the IJN codes occurred, especially concerning Midway (is that a hint). You don’t mention the size of the US Army or the US Army Air Forces, or the Coast Guard prior to Pearl Harbor, could it be that none of the US armed forces had sufficient manpower at that time? Obviously, they should have known ……
It was Admiral Kimmel’s decision. The same Kimmel that get’s much the blame for Pearl Harbor IIRC.
I have a copy of Kimmel’s son’s book non which he defends his father. It was still negligence to ignore the war warning and not go to alert.
The story of the torpedoes is in “Iron Men and Tin Fish”
They were all hand built at the Newport torpedo station and were too expensive to test.
Joe Rochefort was in competition with two Navy Intelligence guys in DC (brothers) who finally had him exiled to a dry dock for the rest of the war.
The BBs in Pearl were salvaged because they were in shallow water. They were in Kinkaid’s fleet at Leyte but Halsey took off after the Japanese carriers that were a lure. Taffy three saved his reputation.
Hornfischer’s books are terrific. I have them all.
That comment, when posted, triggered a “504 error” warning and I could not see if it survived whatever that was. Glad it survived, even if not edited.
Comments is really buggy today.
“The BBs in Pearl were salvaged because they were in shallow water.”
Pearl Harbor is dredged to 50 feet so deep draft vessels like battleships and carriers can enter the harbor. I wonder why the Japanese thought it was smart to sink the US Pacific fleet in 50 feet of water. Amazingly, the Japanese ignored the fuel dump and ammo dump.
“Why Japan had NO Chance in WW2” Military History Visualized
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ag2x3CS9M
An interesting graphical presentation showing over time (’41 – ’45) the number of ships, destroyer escorts and larger, that were produced by USA and Japan.
It’s obvious that starting a war is not as easy as winning a war.
Obvious correction:
It’s obvious that starting a war was easier than winning a war.
“Steve57:
Blert made errors regarding the role of old battleships (BBs) sunk/severely damaged at Pear Harbor and the faster battleships that followed. Many of the old BBs at Pearl Harbor were raised from the harbor bottom, repaired and put back into action later in the war in a shore bombardment role. There were other BBs laid down in 1937, 38, 39 and launched in 1940-1941; USS South Dakota, USS North Carolina, and USS Washington for example, that saw action in the South Pacific in 1942. Specifically in naval battles supporting operations at Guadalcanal. The last of the fast +30 knot BBs, the USS Missouri was laid down on 6/1/1941 before Pearl Harbor.”
Thanks for the lesson. Does the name Willis Augustus “Ching” Lee ring any bells?
“They were all hand built at the Newport torpedo station and were too expensive to test.”
No, Mike, the problem was they were probably the most thoroughly tested weapons in the arsenal. They were just being tested by the same self-satisfied men who were building them. Every single one of them arrived in the fleet with a log book attesting to just how thoroughly tested they were. So when the fleet reported back that the torpedoes just didn’t work, as evidenced by the fact that during practice exercises in San Diego harbor they were recovering muddy torpedoes or they were putting holes in nets far too deep all of which were indicating the weapons were running way too deep, the weapons guys at Newport could pull out records showing that their torpedoes were perfect. And the guys in the fleet must have been doing something wrong. The Torpedomen were mishandling the fish, they weren’t maintaining them, something.
I believe it was Pete Farrell in Seadragon who lined up 8 carefully aimed shots at a Japanese whaling factory ship converted into a fleet oiler (a valuable target) and only got one torpedo to detonate. And the one torpedo that did explode was a fluke. Running too deep was just one of the problems. It turned out the exploder was completely hosed up. In a fit of pride a Naval officer, it later turned out, showed a diagram of the mechanism to Albert Einstein. It was top secret, very hush hush. It was designed to either explode on contact or underneath the keel of the target, which would have made it the most deadly naval weapon ever devised. Einstein took one glance at the diagram and told the Navy guy it would never work. One of the reasons why is because the firing pin would be crushed on impact. He drew a picture of an exploder that would work, and naturally noting happened. Because, see, the torpedo was perfect.
The only reason that Farrell had one torpedo go off is he hit his target obliquely with the first shot. He stopped the big target but didn’t sink it, though. The other seven were carefully lined up on the DIW target, and the firing pin it turned out was crushed every single time.
So after returning to port he marched into Admiral Lockwood’s office and demanded the commander of PACFLT submarines unf*** his g*****mned torpedoes. Which the admiral proceeded to do despite the b****ing and moaning from Newport.
Steve57:
Willis Lee and the USS Washington was written about “Neptune’s Inferno,The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal” bj J. D. Hornfischer. He knew his gunnery and the use of radar to direct it in the Battleship Night Action of November 14-15, 1942. The IJN was defeated in that action but it wasn’t the last fight in those waters.
Steve57 on December 10, 2018 at 7:04 am at 7:04 am said:
“They were all hand built at the Newport torpedo station and were too expensive to test.”
No, Mike, the problem was they were probably the most thoroughly tested weapons in the arsenal. They were just being tested by the same self-satisfied men who were building them. Every single one of them arrived in the fleet with a log book attesting to just how thoroughly tested they were.
* * *
Words fail.
Kind of like the torpedoes.
I suppose it is too much to hope that this was the only instance of (to put it charitably) poor protocol.
Today’s Google Doodle honors Nellie Sachs, a German Jew who escaped the Holocaust and became a poet.
It seems fitting to post this article about her on this WW2 thread.
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/nelly-sachs-poet-nazi-germany-sweden-holocaust-poem-house-of-death-jewish-jews-a8675606.html
Her most famous poem, “O Die Schornsteine” translates as “O the Chimneys”, and addresses the camps where the rest of her Jewish relatives would meet their end.
‘O Die Schornsteine’ (1967)
O the chimneys
On the carefully planned dwellings of death
When Israel’s body rose dissolved in smoke
Through the air –
To be welcomed by a chimney sweep star
Turned black
Or was it a ray of the sun?
O the chimneys!
Paths of freedom for the dust of Jeremiah and Job –
Who dreamed you up and built stone upon stone
The path of smoke for their flight?
O dwellings of death
Set out so enticingly
For the host of the house, who used to be the guest –
O you fingers
Laying the stone of the threshold
Like a knife between life and death –
O you chimneys
O you fingers
And Israel’s body dissolves in smoke through the air!
om on December 10, 2018 at 10:53 am at 10:53 am said, too bad the same couldn’t be said for South Dakota.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_South_Dakota_(BB-57)#/media/File:USS_South_Dakota_(BB-57)_anchored_in_Hvalfj%C3%B6r%C3%B0ur,_Iceland,_on_24_June_1943_(NH_97265).jpg
Steve57:
Richard Fernandez had an interesting post a ten years ago that discussed the USS South Dakota and the failure of it’s electrical systems in the Battle of Gualdacanal
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/10/11/musketeers/
“…But if anything the current financial crisis is driving politicians to propose increasing, rather than reducing system integration. The dangers of that were illustrated by the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal when the battleship USS South Dakota was almost lost to the IJN Kirishima because the temptation to provide a ‘quick fix’ led to putting the eggs in one basket.
The South Dakota’s role in that night action was rather ignominious, as she was bedevilled by a series of power failures, starting some 17 minutes after the action commenced. Gunfire had caused a short circuit on the feeder cable to number 4 secondary fire control director. The circuit breaker was locked in, and the overload resulting from the short was transmitted to the main circuit supplying half the power to the forwad part of the ship. The breaker on that line tripped, causing power to be interrupted. A switch to the alternate power supply had the same result, as the circuit breaker causing the problem was still locked in. All power was lost aft, gyros and fire-control equipment went out, and for three minutes all power was off in all turrets.
By tying down the circuit breakers, a fault in one place became a fault everywhere. The USS South Dakota lost all offensive combat systems and was riddled by 14″ shells from Kirishima, unable to fire anything in return. Fortunately for the BB she was saved by a design redundancy. Her thick armor kept the ship from sustaining critical damage while her battle squadron mate, the USS Washington, sank the Kirishima with 9 x 16″ hits. The history of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal is interesting because some authorities, ……”
Fernandez’s main point concerned the reaction to the 2008 financial crisis, that history can teach many lessons.
I was not familiar with Richard Fernandez’s tale. I was familiar with the story. Because, stand aside, I’m Navy. Stand aside we are coming through.