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Thousand Oaks shooting — 28 Comments

1. A good summary of what has happened to US mental healthcare the past 50 years is well described in “My Brother Ron,” by Clayton Cramer. I see no chance it will improve in my lifetime.

2. I’m effen sick and tired of the G’damned “mentally ill” and their problems.

   Our freedom circles the drain, because of our compassion.

3. Until about thirty or forty years ago the US did have a mental healthcare system with a series of state run mental hospitals and institutions spreading from coast to coast. These services were available at little or no cost to people of limited means who were struggling with mental/emotional disorders and who, in many cases, were unable to care for themselves. It was eventually determined by the political class that the tax dollars being spent on this system offered little return at the ballot box and would be better spent subsidizing the ever expanding population of illegals AND there would be a much better ROI come election day. The results can be seen today on the streets, in the parks, on the sidewalks, beneath the freeway overpasses, and in the homeless encampments of most any large city in the country. No money can be found for citizens in dire need of housing and mental health care while non-citizens are welcomed with open arms and endless
   subsidies.

4. In Europe, you can be institutionalized rather more easily than you can in the US. Full of pit-falls, of course.

5. “you will read statements about how we should ban more guns.” –Neo

   On whatever site I read yesterday, the commenters were about evenly divided between the “gotta have more rules” and the ones pointing out that CA already has the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Hard to see where they can go other than outside the constitution altogether, which the Supreme Court will not allow we hope.

6. Neo said “I feel such a sense of sorrow and weariness about events like this, which seem more frequent and deadly than ever, even though I’m not at all sure that’s statistically true.”

   It’s surprisingly hard to find data on “events like this.” There are data on mass shootings, usually defined as four or more people killed in an incident, but many mass shootings aren’t what we usually think of when we read about “events like this,” which always seem random and meaningless.

   To sort out the painfully random events from things like domestic disputes and drug gang violence would require reading and analyzing each reported case of a mass shooting. That’d be a task both gruesome and tedious. It doesn’t appeal to me, but if anyone wants to take a crack at the data, here are a couple of starting points:

   Gun Violence Archive
   https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports

   US Mass Shootings 1982-2018 compiled by Mother Jones Magazine
   https://tinyurl.com/no23hzz

7. MikeK, I have given that book to at least 20 people for various reasons. It is an excellent overview of our national history with regards to mental illness, as well as sharing insights from a personal perspective and stating the current circumstances and fall-out as a result of public policy. The subject is an exceedingly difficult and serious problem.

8. When ever one of these events happen, I grieve and pray. As someone who has been around and owned guns and a 2nd amendment supporter, as a Christian, and as an American, this seems like such a never ending sorrow at times. I know statistically it is rare, we are a large country, and yet it is all too common. I wish we put more money in to mental health, and were not so reluctant to hold people for evaluation. As we are rightfully free to own arms, as the constitution guarantees, we should be more vigilant to insure the mentally ill do not have them. Now innocent lives are needlessly cut short, a Marine who should have been under care is dead and vilified, and families grieve for their lost loved ones. I have no answers, only prayers for those dead and hurt, and fatigue that this continues. God have mercy on us.

9. It seems California is cursed as one tragedy follows another. A well known friend of Neo’s who comments here regularly, Gerard Vanderleun, may have lost his home and personal belongings today in a devastating fire that has destroyed the entire city of Paradise, California. He is safe for now at his mother’s home nearby. Keep him in your thoughts and prayers.
   http://americandigest.org/wp/site-notes-theres-a-substantial-fire-to-the-east/

10. The Camp Fire is spreading incredibly fast due to Santa Ana winds that are common this time of year in California. My younger son is a firefighter with Cal Fire, the state fire department but, fortunately, he is an engineer and in southern CA. In 1961, his mother and I lost everything when her parents house burned down in The Bel Air Fire, which burned 460 houses. That fire was on November 6. The article says it was a Sunday but that is not my recollection. Her father had dropped off some laundry on his way to work. At the end of the day, that was all he had.

11. I don’t really have time to read the links today on mass shootings. My impressions are that bad things used to happen, but in the internet age, things which happen across the country become concerns in our own back yards. Before the internet, we weren’t so aware of distant occurrences. Also: There is a copycat effect from the wide dissemination of photos and stories about these atrocities. Unstable people see the news coverage and do something similar. I have no idea what to do about that, other than the commendable effort of some news sources not to dwell on the shooter’s name and photo after the first identification.

    Last year (or was it the year before?), my sister in Ventura had to evacuate as the fire burned to within 400 yards of her home. It’s terrible. Good to know that commenter Gerald did not burn along with his belongings.

12. I have some relations who’ve had a terrible result from current mental health systems. Into treatment, out, into treatment, out, into jail, out, into jail, suicide.
    I sympathize, but there’s an issue of personal freedom:
    Presume a jurisdiction has a level of assault called “simple assault”. Presume the maximum sentence is two years. The guy who actually did it, who by doing it demonstrates a propensity for doing it, went to court, had a defense attorney, the prosecutor had rules of evidence to obey, and is now, after no more than two years, out on the street.
    Meantime, somebody who hasn’t assaulted anybody–or he’d be in the criminal justice system–is evaluated as a danger to himself or others based on his non-criminal activities. The maximum time he can be locked up is…..there is no limit. Nor is there any organized defense. And, while he’s involuntarily locked up for looking to a half-trained professional as if he might pop off sometime, they mess with his head.

13. Richard Aubrey, yes. It’s very important that there be a high bar to locking up people because they might damage or destroy others (or themselves).

    Psychiatrist David Viscott died some years ago, but his memoir of his days as a resident working in psychiatric wards, The Making of a Psychiatrist, is an excellent warning, as well as being interesting and readable.

    https://www.amazon.com/Making-Psychiatrist-David-Viscott-M-D/dp/B000HUBD0Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1541777810&sr=1-1

    .

    Kate, I’m sure you are quite right:

    “… [B]ad things used to happen, but in the internet age, things which happen across the country become concerns in our own back yards. Before the internet, we weren’t so aware of distant occurrences. Also: There is a copycat effect from the wide dissemination of photos and stories about these atrocities.”

    Also, it really does seem to me that the atmosphere of simmering rage and a certain level of encouragement by the Usual Suspects for acting on it cannot be helping the situation.

14. My guess is that these incidents are increasing in frequency.

    The other sad thing that might be true, is that those thinking about perpetrating such violence now see bars as another gun-free zone, or nearly so. There were 6 off-duty cops enjoying the bar when it went down. But because they intended to go drinking, they left their firearms behind.

15. its a bit freaking obvious… but hey, people dont notice the obvious

    marine… loves country…serves..
    comes back in a time that is repeating the 70s urine tossing yippies

    settles in, decides on a career, and as a marine, goes to school at a super liveral cis white male hating, double hating baby killers, environement till he quit.

    now… lets see…
    pissed off that the people he risked life would torment him?
    pissed off that instead of regard for service he gets what?
    and peeved he could not get a career cause he could not manage their behaviors?

    its really NOT that hard to see if you read about how many others having been abused by our new tolerant mostly single parent produced kids who do what intead of what?

    Marine Veteran, Man Wearing Trump Shirt Violently Attacked Near Trump Star in L.A. / Mob also attacks cameraman filming the fight

    LEFTIST GROUP SAYS IT KILLED 4 MARINES – Chicago Tribune

    Leftist Media Outlet Attacks Marines on Memorial Day over ‘Toxic Masculinity

    U.S. MARINE REACTS TO CRAZY LEFTIST’S ATTACK ON “MAN”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lL54VTx_Rk

    ANTIFA Violent In Berkeley – Attack Marine Recruiting Office, Throw Explosives At Police
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t2Yp7n5aeM

    -=-=-==-=-
    again.. waht the hell do you think he had to put up with at a california liberal college? or did you not notice they are NOT delving into his college much?

    and if you dont watch anything, PLEASE WATCH THIS ONE
    Leftist Protesters get more than they bargain for when Andrew Bolt bashes back
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjWdYqTjx70

    [sadly at some point he may have thought that these kids were the enemy, because well, they declared themselves the enemy… i have no idea if this thesis is right or not, other than i work in academia and i watch this go on all the time all over, but lets see...

16. Rights and responsibilities.

    super liveral cis white male hating, double hating baby killers

    “In Stork They Trust”

    I placed my life at risk to normalize this? Diversity and selective-child are known first-order forcings of Catastrophic Anthropogenic PTSD.

17. “The veneer of civilization is exceedingly thin” — a quote attributed to many, in various forms, but undoubtedly true. When you teach people, “Imagine there’s no heaven/It’s easy if you try/No hell below us/ Above us only sky,” they’re going to act on their worst impulses, most predatory impulses. Unfortunately, unless you have a country made up of a “religious and moral people,” this is what you’re going to get. Weimar Republic times a’coming.

18. Was this a case of toxic masculinity or the patriarchy? I think not.

    https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2018/11/09/men-form-human-shield-around-women-protect-gunman-california-shooting/

19. om on November 9, 2018 at 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm said:
    Was this a case of toxic masculinity or the patriarchy? I think not.

    https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2018/11/09/men-form-human-shield-around-women-protect-gunman-california-shooting/
    * * *
    As with all dangerous things, the dose makes the poison.
    In the doses needed by civilized society, masculinity is not toxic.
    However, the mostly male antifa thugs do demonstrate that some men are prone to toxicity when their chosen culture otherwise forbids them to do the normal male “guy things” and wants them to wear PJs, sip cocoa, and be empathetic instead of, you know, regular stoic fix-it kind of guys.
    (Parent of 5 boys here, and I hope & expect them to have been among the “sheepdogs” that night, except they wouldn’t have been in a bar.. could have happened at Luby’s or an ice cream parlor, though…)

20. AesopFan:

    “Toxic masculinity” is the latest feminist SJM offense used to demean all males who are not feminist enough (a sliding scale of infinite and changeable nature).

    Before “toxic masculinity,” bad behavior in males had many descriptions depending on the nature of the offense and the situation; a**hole, bore, ass, seducer, thug, rapist, etc., and of course being a gentleman or acting as such is now toxic masculinity. Defending and protecting a vulnerable female or vulnerable other person (whatever sex) is of course “toxic” to a feminist SJW it seems.

21. AesopFan:

    Antifa are just thugs, and some are not male. Are the non-male Antifa “fugs?” F**ked up gals?

22. Artfldgr on November 9, 2018 at 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm said:
    its a bit freaking obvious… but hey, people dont notice the obvious

    marine… loves country…serves..
    comes back in a time that is repeating the 70s urine tossing yippies

    settles in, decides on a career, and as a marine, goes to school at a super liveral cis white male hating, double hating baby killers, environement till he quit.
    * * *
    Indeed.
    And not a new phenomenon.
    Quite a few of the Brothers Grimm tales feature discharged veterans in much the same position.

    http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_tommy.htm

    I WENT into a public ‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
    The publican ‘e up an’ sez, ” We serve no red-coats here.”
    The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
    O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ ” Tommy, go away ” ;
    But it’s ” Thank you, Mister Atkins,” when the band begins to play
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it’s ” Thank you, Mister Atkins,” when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
    But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ ” Tommy, wait outside “;
    But it’s ” Special train for Atkins ” when the trooper’s on the tide
    The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
    O it’s ” Special train for Atkins ” when the trooper’s on the tide.

    Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap.
    An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
    Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an` Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul? ”
    But it’s ” Thin red line of ‘eroes ” when the drums begin to roll
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it’s ” Thin red line of ‘eroes, ” when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
    While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be’ind,”
    But it’s ” Please to walk in front, sir,” when there’s trouble in the wind
    There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
    O it’s ” Please to walk in front, sir,” when there’s trouble in the wind.

    You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
    We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! ”
    But it’s ” Saviour of ‘is country ” when the guns begin to shoot;
    An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
    An ‘Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool – you bet that Tommy sees!

23. Until about thirty or forty years ago the US did have a mental healthcare system with a series of state run mental hospitals and institutions spreading from coast to coast.

    I think you mean 60-odd years ago. The state asylums were largely closed down for a number of reasons (which, if I’m not mistaken, Clayton Cramer enumerates).

    1. Certain inmate populations disappeared due to public health improvements, such as people driven mad by tertiary syphilis. The last of the post-encephalytic patients Oliver Sacks cared for died in 1982.

    2. Psychotroptic medications and outpatient supervision replaced inpatient housing for a large fraction of the population with schizophreniform disorders. Twenty-four hour care is superlatively expensive and coercive, so there’a a large incentive to take advantage of alternatives to incarceration.

    3. A great many of the asylum census in 1955 were short term residents, in and out in six weeks. Such people can commonly be handled in outpatient care or insurance-financed inpatient care in private facilities.

    4. A great many were suffering senile dementia. Such people are in nursing homes nowadays, their residency financed by Medicaid.

    5. A certain number were mentally retarded. They’re in group homes nowadays.

    6. Others are now in private institutions, financed by Medicaid and other programs.

    You really don’t need facilities operated by state employees bar those which are auxilliary to the prison system.

24. A good summary of what has happened to US mental healthcare the past 50 years is well described in “My Brother Ron,” by Clayton Cramer. I see no chance it will improve in my lifetime

    I have a suspicion that only an odd minority of these mass shooters would have been candidates for asylum care in 1955. Jared Loughner (Gabby Giffords, et al) and James Holmes (the cinema in the Denver suburbs) are certainly nuts. However, Charles Whitman was not insane in any discrete and observable way ex ante, nor was Stephen Paddock, nor were the Columbine pair.

25. as well as sharing insights from a personal perspective

    I had Clayton Cramer on my blog roll and regarded him as someone whose opinion I wanted to check on any issue. (He took to blogging mostly about technology, which I cannot interest myself in). His late brother was a violent man and I think this to a certain extent implanted a visceral tendency to see the problems of schizophrenics and the problems they present in a somewhat distorted way. Fuller Torrey put it thus: stark staring mad is a great deal more common than stark raving mad. You have about 2 million people in this country with a history of schizophreniform phenomena. Torrey has offered the estimate that about 1/3 belong in institutional care of some sort, some for violence but most because they’re just too disorganized upstairs to take proper care of themselves or to accede to family supervision. About 0.5% of the population was incarcerated in state asylums in 1955. An equivalent census today would be 1.6 million people. If Torrey is correct, we should have about 670,000 schizophrenics confined, or about 0.2% of the population.

26. Art Deco on November 10, 2018 at 9:32 am at 9:32 am said:
    Until about thirty or forty years ago the US did have a mental healthcare system with a series of state run mental hospitals and institutions spreading from coast to coast.

    I think you mean 60-odd years ago. The state asylums were largely closed down for a number of reasons (which, if I’m not mistaken, Clayton Cramer enumerates).
    * * *
    Thanks for the list and the other information.
    The ways to take care of people other than with asylum incarceration are impressive when looked at this way; I have only been kind of peripherally aware of a couple of them.

27. Interesting article out today discussing Liberal (more gun control) and Conservative (arming up) Jews response to the Pittsburgh synagogue massacre.

    See https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/271885/god-and-guns-synagogue-daniel-greenfield#.W-YX_93g1Bc.facebook

28. The media “reports” that the Authorities responded when the shooter was screaming, howling, and pounding on walls. California has been suppoirting Illegal Aliens in order to maintain a source of docile voters and cheap labor and apparently has limited resources for social care.

    Perhaps if the shooter was screaming in Spanish…….

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