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9/11: Seventeen years — 32 Comments

  1. Rick Rescorla, former British soldier, later American soldier. That book “we were Soldiers Once, and Young”? That’s his picture on the cover of the book.

    On 9/11/01, he was VP of security for Morgan Stanley. He’s the guy who organized the evacuations of the south tower; only 6 Morgan Stanley employees died that day. He was one of them.

    http://rickrescorla.com/articles/a-tower-of-courage

  2. 17 years ago, I was in Africa. I was building a new Embassy to replace the one that had been attacked and destroyed by terrorists, three years earlier. You would think that 9-11 would have had an even greater impact on me. But it didn’t. You see, 9-11 caused a shift in American public opinion. The shock of the attack and the resulting sensation of vulnerability produced a tectonic shift in political thought and attitudes in the U.S. And, I was not there to participate in it.

    To this day, I encounter cultural changes in America that make me feel like a foreigner here who just doesn’t “get it”. Maybe I never will…

  3. “… just as Pearl Harbor was for me when I was growing up. As a child, I couldn’t quite understand what the big fuss was all about; it was history, after all.”

    Yeas, but what about your dad and your uncles; their experiences in battle or the war zone at least; the memorabilia, the uniforms in the cedar chest, the captured weapons in the closet … even the army surplus stores that were everywhere until the 1960s?

    Or … or …. Victory at Sea reruns! The Best! … LOL

  4. The odd thing was that it didn’t frighten me. Of course I wasn’t in New York, but it was just another flavor of “The Soviets are going to bomb hell out of us”. Maybe I never expected the world to be fair and was not too impressed with the notion that we had come to the end of history. A lot of people seemed to totally freak.

  5. I think that a lot of people—with the help of a Leftist MSM that has done it’s utmost to help them forget by hardly ever showing the images of 9/11—have, for all practical purposes, forgotten about 9/11, and the threat from Islam that it exposed.

    Many people have been lulled back to sleep by their easy, lazy, conflict avoidance acceptance of the “Islam is the Religion of Peace” mantra, and, moreover, prevented from discussing and analyzing the tenets, history, and actual behavior of Islam and of Muslims, or from actually realizing the existential threat Islam poses to the West, and, in particular, to the U.S., by the fear of being called a “racist” or “Islamophobe” in today’s far too prevalent PC culture. They have been ordered to shut down and shut up.

    But, beyond this specific 9/11 problem, I think that there is a much more general, global problem.

    That problem is the far too many naive, complacent, and historically ignorant people here in the U..S today are under the illusion that the very rare, highly unusual, and extraordinary freedom, peace, and plenty that generations of our ancestor’s struggle, hard work, and sacrifice, that their values and culture have created here in the U.S., are conditions that have happened and are and have been present in all sorts of countries down through history.

    Moreover, that such conditions are not only the norm in History, but that our freedom, peace, and plenty are just eternal, and that without any thought or especially effort on their parts, our freedom, peace, and plenty will just roll on forever.

    The facts are, though, that the lot of human beings since recorded history began some 4,000 years ago—and, I am quite sure, for all the hundreds of thousands of years prior to that recorded history—was one of violence, domination, grueling, back-breaking work, starvation, disease, and cold; a short and miserable existence and, then, an early grave.

    It was truly a “state of nature.” There was no law except that of might, violence, and cunning.

    It was everyone one for himself, and the strongest, the most violent, or most cunning dominated everyone else. And even today, that situation still obtains—to one degree or the other—in almost every country on Earth.

    The freedom, peace, and plenty our system of government and values have enabled our ancestors to create here in the U.S.—that we enjoy today—are the rarest of exceptions, unique in all of human history; an anomaly.

    Our current freedom, peace, and plenty are also not guaranteed and they are, indeed, very precious and fragile things, conditions that can be pretty easily ruined, destroyed, squandered, unless we are very vigilant in their maintenance and defense.

    Former President Reagan summed it up quite nicely when he said:

    “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

    I think far too many people here in the U.S. today are ignorant of and/or forget the essential truth that Reagan highlighted when he said the above.

    To quote Benjamin Franklin during the Constitutional Convention, when a bunch of people asked him what kind of government the delegates inside were creating, and he responded, “a Republic, if you can keep it.”

    It seems to me that, given all that has happened, and that we have found out about, especially over the last dozen years or so, our hold on our Republic and on our freedom, peace, and plenty is very tenuous indeed.

  6. My youngest was in first grade. Now she is a college grad. We went to a service at Omaha’s Catholic Cathedral. She asked me, “Why did they hurt us? We never did anything to them.” That was in the first paragraph of my OWH essay.

    The worst of this war against Islamists is that Obama had them nearly defeated and he let the JV back into the game. And, of course, Obama gave Iran billions in which to kill us. The war will be extended for decades due to Obama’s treason. Yeah, treason. Obama is our worse President. Worse than Buchanan as no way was the South going to give up slavery without a war.

  7. Today I watched “American Folk,” a movie which came out in early 2018 about a couple who meet when their LA to New York flight is grounded by 9-11 They end up driving to New York in a borrowed 1972 van. As the miles roll by, they process the attacks, discover they both love folk music, and of course meet lots of good-hearted Americans doing their best in the midst of tragedy. Everyone bonds over folk music.

    In other words the film is pretty lame. What’s worse is the usual tone-deaf liberal score-settling.

    The first person they meet is a young Hispanic man who insists on giving them an American flag. Later they are listening to Bush 43 on the radio talking about a response to 9-11, while they just happen to be driving past a big cemetery. Then they pick up a female couple hitchhiking, who just happen to be returning to Tennessee so they can come out to one girl’s parents, who just happen to have a black-white marriage.

    I think it’s possible, though tricky, to make a good 9-11 film, but this sure ain’t it.

  8. Cornhead—I think that question, “why did they attack us, what did we do to them?” is a question that baffles a lot of people who don’t really think in terms of deep belief in ideology as a driver of behavior, especially in our increasingly Post-Christian world.

    The answer, of course–one that has been offered by commenters on many different threads–is very simple.

    Despite the smokescreen of justifications and excuses for these attacks that Muslim ideologues, their allies, and their partisans present to explain Islamic terrorist attacks against all unbelievers—occurring over the past almost 1,400 years and today, all over the world, and in almost every country—the truth is that we were attacked by Muslim terrorists not for what we might have done or not done but, for what and who we are, “unbelievers.”

    And to understand Islam’s and many Muslim’s eternal animus, to understand why, you have to dive into the Islamic mindset, Islamic thought, and worldview, into Islamic history, and into Islamic ideology—into the three fundamental texts of Islam—the Qur’an, the Sira, and the major Hadiths, into the life, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad—dive into an entirely different worldview, mindset, logic, and philosophical world.

    If you do, however, it will be abundantly clear why we were attacked and attacked, I might point out, on the very 11th day of September that was the anniversary of several very important turning points—Christian victories and Muslim defeats—in the history of Islam’s eternal war against all unbelievers—the Christian victory over Muslims at the Siege of Malta, on September 11th, 1565, September, 11th, 1609, the day the Spanish announced the expulsion of Muslims from Spain, and the Muslim defeat at the Battle of Zenta, on September 11th, 1697.

  9. Pine:

    I wrote another OWH essay based on a book of OBL’s writings. He had a bill of particulars against the West dating back centuries. I also recall him asserting that the West stole the Mid-East’s oil. Your comments are correct.

    My view is that now that we have enough of our own oil, we just cut off most contact with those barbarians. Containment.

  10. Don’t forget the victory on September 11-12, 1683 when the King of Poland leading the Christians defeated the Sultan of Turkey at the Siege of Vienna. Had they lost, the Muslims would have overrun Europe. It was the last major incursion into Europe by the muslims who would never recover from the defeat.

    The siege of Malta was exceedingly brutal. See https://onepeterfive.com/the-top-4-reasons-september-11th-is-significant-to-islam/ for a summary of this and other 9/11 battles of the Muslims against the Christians.

  11. History of the prophet, feed him to the pigs, and all that followed in his path, tells you all you need to know about islam. It is not a nuanced mystery. Yes millions of muslims are not jihadists, and even a minority condemn them, but so what? It is a question of which will prevail, Western Enlightenment or the savages of islam? With the left supporting islam, the battle lines were drawn in 1979 in Tehran, and redrawn in 93 and then again in 01.

    Total war, absolute surrender are the only way forward. Anything less is the end of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Waiting for 51% to get behind total war.

  12. One of the first things Bin Laden complained about after 9-11 was “the tragedy of Andalusia” by which he meant the expulsion of Muslims from Spain in 1609, which “Snow on Pine” mentioned.

    Some liberals explained al-Qaeda’s deadly hostility to America because we had military bases in Saudi Arabia and yeah, Bin Laden complained about that too. Muslims ultimately complain about everything which frustrates their divine mandate to rule the world. However, most of this goes back centuries. To Mohammed himself actually.

    In 2003 the Bush administration removed the American military from Saudi Arabia. Which is why peace has been restored to the Middle East…

  13. I didn’t realize there were so many 9-11s in Muslim history.

    I was astonished six years ago that barely anyone noted the date of the Benghazi attack: 9-11-2012.

  14. I was another case study. I live in a dark blue place, and I recall some of my co-workers commenting about “how we deserved it”. These events were the catalyst for the start of my own change story.

  15. Huxley commented to which I am now responding,

    Jesus Fu**ing Christ, man, Do i have to keep track of every God damn thing?

  16. For all of the people who want to lump all Muslims into the same pot with the radicals… There is a simple and practical reason why the U.S. has gone out of its way to placate non-radical Muslims. Does anyone really want America, a nation of 325 million, to go to war against 1.8 billion Muslims??

    Religious fanaticism blows hot and cold. George Bush understood that the correct (or, at least the best) strategy after 9-11 was limited war and containment while seeking the good will and cooperation of moderate Muslims. Obama continued the same policy.

    Eventually, just as each of the Crusades petered out, the jihadist movements will lose steam. The alternative to this is a total global war. We should be very glad that the cooler heads prevailed after 9-11.

  17. Roy:

    I must have been sleeping, BHO continuing the same policies a GWB, Yeah BHO encouraging and supporting the Muslim Brotherhood is Egypt and then the outcome of BHO policies in Lybia are just the same as GWB? And of course the wonderful BHO policies in Syria. What drugs are you taking?

  18. Roy:

    And of course I forgot to mention BHO continuing the GWB policy in Iraq (which he didn’t) that somehow gave the world that JV team ISIS? All just the same, “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” blockhead.

  19. Roy, GWB was an idiot. I don’t need the lecture about not lumping all Muslims in with the radicals. Because you’re making several category errors. Starting with Muslim does not equal Islam. I despise the ideology of Islam. And all you have to do is read the Daesh/AQ online magazines Dabiq/Ruhiyah/Inspire to find out why. But I don’t despise Muslims. There are Muslims that I would, have, trusted with my life.

    I’ve never had to explain the difference between Muslim and Islam to any of my Sailors or Marines. They get it. In fact, they’re kind of insulted that I might imply I think I have to explain the difference. Both the Sailors and Marines I led, and the Sailors and Marines who led me. Of the billion and a half Muslims you mention, about half aren’t going to be a problem. The other half, yeah, they’re going to cause problems to various degrees because they read their holy texts the same way I do. The only way a responsible intel officer can read an enemy’s play book. You can sample mosques on any Friday in northern Europe and you will hear thousands of sermons about how infidel women who don’t wear the hijab are sluts who deserve to be raped.

    It’s not just northern Europe. I can guarantee you that you can go into some Saudi-funded mosque in the US and hear the same thing. In 2006 the senior Islamic cleric in Australia compared uncovered women to trays of uncovered meat and it’s not the cats’ fault for devouring them. He was Sunni. LeIn identified for removing their hijabs have been charged with, wait for it, incitement to prostitution.

    It’s all in Islam’s holy texts, Roy. After all, what is a radical? When it comes to numbers, it’s a root number. And that is what Al Qaeda means; the base. Our problem right now is with the Salafists. Who were produced by the Wahhabists and the Ikhwan. More specifically by Sayyad Qutb, the MB’s leading theologian. I recommend that you, and anyone who wants to know what we’re dealing with, read his “Milestones.”

    You say that it would be stupid for us to pick a fight with a billion and and a half Muslims. The thing is, we didn’t divide the world into Dar al Islam, the house of Islam, and Dar al Harb, the house of war. They did. They get a vote about the size and shape of the conflict. That’s the reality of the situation.

    As for me and mine, I am kuffar harbi.

  20. I live in a dark blue place, and I recall some of my co-workers commenting about “how we deserved it”.

    To be fair to the left, in my experience, the people most likely to push that thesis were soi-disant palaeos and the proto-alt-right. See Ron Paul and Joseph Sobran.

  21. Roy Nathanson–You write that “religious fanaticism blows hot and cold.”

    I submit that the case is that–thanks to the ever present, fundamental texts of Islam, the example of Muhammad, and the world-view they inculcate–over the course of these last almost 1,400 years, the ember of Islamic fanaticism has never been extinguished. It has resulted in increased attacks over a larger area when Islam was stronger, and fewer, less widespread attacks when Islam was weaker, but it has always been there, ready to burst into flame.

    Are you suggesting that that very, very long lasting ember will somehow just turn into a lifeless cinder, and blow away?

    The United States has been the subject of attacks by Islam and Muslims from the very inception of our country, at a time when we were a very small and weak country which had committed no offense against either Islam or Muslims.

    I remind you of the 1780-1790s attacks on our newly formed country’s absolutely essential maritime trade by the Muslim “Barbary Pirates” of North Africa, who attacked and captured our merchantmen, stole these ships and their cargoes, and sold their crews and passengers into slavery, via the Muslim slave trade (that in 1770 had already been capturing, processing, warehousing, and selling what have been estimated to have been many millions of slaves during the course of almost a millennia, a trade which still exists in some parts of the world today).

    In 1785, in an effort to discover why these attacks were occurring and to try to stop them, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams traveled to Tripoli in North Africa–in what is today’s Libya–to talk to Abd Al Rahman, the Muslim Ambassador to London and highest Muslim representative, asking him why these Muslim pirates were preying on the maritime commerce of a newly formed nation that had done nothing to them, Al-Rahman told them:

    “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

    And Al Rahman demanded an annual Jizya (protection money) payment to stop the piracy. Thus, these attacks by Muslims were not provoked by anything we had done, but by who we were, “unbelievers.” As is the case today, Muslims were commanded to carry out these attacks by Islamic ideology.

    The U.S. paid this Jizya payment in gold coins each year for some 15 years—this huge Jizya payment often amounting to more than half our new nation’s annual Federal budget—until, in time, Jefferson created the U.S. Navy and Marines, and they went over to Tripoli and in a long campaign, destroyed the Barbary Pirates and their bases (“…to the shores of Tripoli”).

    I note that there are still such Barbary Pirates today, and that they are still attacking ships and demanding for Jizya for their return.

  22. I’m afraid that some people might think I’m making things up.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html

    I’m not. In fact, I wish what many things I’m forced to say for truth’s sake weren’t true. But I am, unfortunately, your intel officer. And you need to hear the ugly facts. You are not going to succumb to Stockholm syndrome on my watch. I will force you to face it, otherwise I’m not doing my job.

    I got the favor of looking at the havoc that Gunney Hathcock wreaked. Gunney Hathcock, White feather, showed me himself. It pays that I qualified on the same weapons that he did. I couldn’t have made the shot. That took a lifetime of skill. My advice, for what it’s worth, is if it is at all possible don’t do it. But if it’s not possible. let’s not have any half measures.

  23. Steve, thanks for the intel and the references to Hathcock. His Wikipedia entry was amazing, but I laughed a bit at this part:

    “He fell into a state of depression when he was forced out of the Marines [medical discharge for severe injuries in Vietnam] because he felt as if the service had kicked him out. …Hathcock eventually picked up the hobby of shark fishing, which helped him overcome his depression.[27]”
    * * *
    The choice of a White Feather as his plume de nom is interesting, as that was the dubious “favour” that British women in WWI handed out to men whom they suspected of shirking their duty to enlist in the armed forces, often without knowing the circumstances of the man’s situation. A Welsh film about one of their great poets includes some moving scenes on that subject. “Hedd Wyn” is his bardic name, and also that of the movie.
    * * *
    A true Spartacus moment:

    “The North Vietnamese Army placed a bounty of US$30,000 on Hathcock’s life for killing so many of their men. Rewards put on U.S. snipers by the NVA typically ranged from $8 to $2,000. Hathcock held the record for highest bounty and killed every known Vietnamese marksman who sought him to collect it.[6] The Viet Cong and NVA called Hathcock Du kích Lông Tr?ng, translated as “White Feather Sniper”, because of the white feather he kept in a band on his bush hat.[7][8][9] After a platoon of Vietnamese snipers was sent to hunt down “White Feather”, many Marines in the same area donned white feathers to deceive the enemy. These Marines were aware of the impact Hathcock’s death would have and took it upon themselves to make themselves targets in order to confuse the counter-snipers.[10]”

  24. “…There were heroes that day such as, for example, the Flight 93 passengers, the firefighters and police, the ordinary people in the WTC who stopped to help assist others to get out (some of whom lost their own lives in the process), those on the planes who phoned to say a last goodbye to loved ones or to give information about the hijackings—all are heroes to me. RIP, and let us never become blasé about what happened…”

    There was another group, one that doesn’t get nearly enough attention. I think you might be interested in knowing about them. Everyone should know about them.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/ex-fighter-pilot-recalls-her-9-11-suicide-mission/

    “On the Tuesday that changed everything, Lt. Heather “Lucky” Penney was on a runway at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland and ready to fly. She had her hand on the throttle of an F-16 and she had her orders: Bring down United Airlines Flight 93.

    The day’s fourth hijacked airliner seemed to be hurtling toward Washington, D.C. Penney, one of the first two combat pilots in the air that morning, was told to stop it.

    The one thing she didn’t have as she roared into the sky was live ammunition. Or missiles. Or anything to throw at a hostile aircraft.

    Except her own plane. So that was the plan…”

    https://theaviationist.com/2011/09/07/9-11/

    “…Between 09.25 and 09.45 the whole US airspace is shut down. No civilian plane is allowed to take off, while all inbound aircraft are instructed to return to their departure airport or to divert to the nearest airport. 4,500 civilian and general aviation flights are affected by the order to land immediately.

    Although some believe that the FAA issued the execution order for SCATANA, the Plan for the “Security Control of Air Traffic and Air Navigation Aids”, in order to ground all the air traffic, the emergency plan was not completely implemented as the Defense Department left the air traffic control system in the hands of the FAA and decided to leave all the radio navigational aids still running, so as that the thousands of planes which were aloft in domestic airspace could use them to land or to divert to an alternate destination.

    [DOD PROCEDURAL NOTAM] EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. SCATANA HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED, HOWEVER, DOD AIRCREWS WILL FOLLOW SCATANA PROCEDURES FOR FILING FLIGHT PLANS IN ORDER TO GAIN DEPARTURE APPROVAL. REPEAT: SCATANA HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED. 11 SEP 18:18 UNTIL 11 OCT 23:59

    …After all the four hijacked plane had crashed, and another “renegade” was eventually identified as a MEDEVAC chopper in bound the Pentagon (and not another hijacked plane), all the scrambled planes established CAP orbits over NYC, Washington DC and on all major US towns. Many aviation enthusiasts were able to hear what happened in the air, because, quite surprisingly, radio communications were not encrypted but in the clear, on very well-known VHF and UHF frequencies.

    The Washington area was filled with Combat Air Patrol orbits by USAF, ANG and also USAF, all managed by “Huntress” (the radio callsign of the NEADS weapons controller) and later by two AWACS: “Bandsaw” and “Chalice” operating off the MD/VA coast. In the early afternoon of Sept. 11, there were six CAPs over the nation’s capital with 12 fully armed planes checking any single radar contact. Those Squadrons that were not on alert duty, prepared their aircraft and launched them to cover as much territory as possible. Among them, the VMFA-321, based at Andrews AFB, whose F-18 Hornets with callsign “Angel” covered the higher part of the airspace from FL270 and above; the 1st FW F-15s scrambled from Langley as “First” and covering the FL230 – FL260 block levels; the DC ANG 113th Wing F-16s, using callsigns “Caps”, “Wild” and “Bully”, initially covering the airspace below FL230 then covering the lower portions of the airspace south of Washington DC from 5.000 ft to FL 140, and the ND ANG F-16s (callsign “Quit”) that were the first to be called into action being deployed to Langley to undertake QRA duties, set up patrols at about 25.000 feet in a racetrack designed to keep an eye to the east. Then, even the ND pilots were required to drop low to check one of the unidentified planes, which turned out to be MEDEVAC helicopters flying to/from the Pentagon.

    There were many choppers operating in the Pentagon area. Among them, some UH-1 of the 1st Helicopter Sqn from Andrews AFB (“Mussel”) along with HMX-1 and US Navy helos shuttling VIPs to and from bases in MD/VA area.

    Later on, even VA ANG F-16s using callsign “Fury” and NJ ANG F-16s with callsign “Snake”, were dispatched to the area.

    Since the situation was quite dynamic, aircraft could be called to climb or descend to “investigate” suspicious contact or to escort aircraft landing at civil airports. Regan National airport was used as reference point and referred to as Bullseye of the air defense operation on Sept. 11.

    Obviously, the interceptors had to be supported by tanker aircraft: there were KC-135s launched from Pittsburgh (“Steel”), Bangor IAP (“Maine”) and Rickenbacker IAP (“Tazz” and “Flop”), and KC-10s launched from McGuire (“Teal”), providing air-to-air capacity to both hose and probe equipped aircraft (USMC F-18s)…”

    The later aircraft were armed, and God bless the maintainers. But the earliest aircraft to launch were not armed. They were just available, flying normal everyday training flights. But they were ordered to defend the country with the only weapon they had, the one between their legs. And raw courage.

  25. om on September 12, 2018 at 11:03 am at 11:03 am:

    I must have been sleeping, BHO continuing the same policies a GWB … What drugs are you taking?
    … And of course I forgot to mention BHO continuing the GWB policy in Iraq (which he didn’t)

    Indeed. President Obama radically deviated from President Bush’s Middle East policy course re Iraq and the Freedom Agenda. Excerpt from https://operationiraqifreedomfaq.blogspot.com/2013/03/10-year-anniversary-start-Operation-Iraqi-Freedom-thoughts.html:

    With American leadership tempered by the crucible of Iraq, the next step of winning the War on Terror was building peace in the Middle East based on new norms. How? Carry forward the Bush Freedom Agenda and continue the steadfast American partnership developing the emerging pluralistic, liberalizing post-Saddam Iraq as the keystone building block.

    While the Arab Spring happened during the Obama administration, the Bush Freedom Agenda had positioned America to boost liberal reform in the Middle East. Concurrently, OIF had set up a better stable and ethical path to deal with Iran that relied on 3 prongs: stabilize Iraq as an American ally, increase sanctions pressure, and support civil reform in Iran. President Obama, instead, did the opposite of all three.

    In his benchmark May 2011 address, Obama pledged “steadfast” support for progressing Iraq and the Arab Spring. Middle East activists took the US president’s pledge to heart to risk their lives, but Obama subsequently proudly reneged. In the singular window to make a historic difference, in the moment America held – as President Clinton had envisioned – “a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past”, President Obama astonishingly, instead, appeased Iran, disengaged the vital peace operations with Iraq, dropped the Bush Freedom Agenda, and opted to ‘lead from behind’ with predictable and evitable tragic consequences.

    Also see https://operationiraqifreedomfaq.blogspot.com/2012/09/an-irresponsible-exit-from-iraq.html for expository sources and commentary on President Obama’s “irresponsible exit from Iraq”.

  26. There’s an even more ancient term for Obama’s irresponsible exit from Iraq.

    It’s called “abandoning your allies in the field.”

    Oh, and BTW, the Bergdahl trade and Iran debacle? That’s called “replenishing your enemies in the field.”

    Well, not his enemies. Our enemies. Any guesses about what I think about President Benedict Arnold?

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