Immigration and the Holy Family: department of incorrect metaphors
A church in Indianapolis has mounted the following protest:
An Indianapolis church has placed statues of Mary, Joseph and the baby Jesus in a cage of fencing topped with barbed wired to protest the Trump administration’s zero tolerance immigration policy.
The statues were erected Tuesday morning outside Christ Church Cathedral on downtown Indianapolis’ Monument Circle and surrounded by the fencing.
The Episcopalian church’s dean and rector, the Rev. Stephen Carlsen, says the display that’s part of the church’s “Every Family is Holy Campaign” condemns the nation’s immigration policy that’s holding families in detention centers at the U.S.-Mexico border.
He says the Holy Family was “a homeless family with nowhere to stay” and that the Bible says “we’re supposed to love our neighbors as ourselves.”
I wonder whether Rev. Carlsen would be willing to take some of the families who are being held and house them in his own home’s stable, as it were.
But the strangest thing about his statement is that I assume that he, as a Christian clergyman, would be aware of the story of Mary and Joseph and their journey to Bethlehem, and know that they were neither migrants nor homeless, nor were they illegal immigrants. Au contraire.
You (or Rev. Carlsen) can find the actual story in many places online. The basics are that the Holy Family was traveling from their home to their ancestral home in order to comply with a law directing them to do so for a census.
Mary and Joseph had to go to Joseph’s ancestral home due to Roman taxation policies. From time to time, the Romans conducted a census not merely to count people but also to find out what they owned so that they could be taxed. It was decreed in the year Christ was born (5 B.C.) that such a taxation census would be taken of the people.
1. Now it happened in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus (the first true Roman Emperor who ruled from 27 B.C. to 14 A.D.) that all the world should be registered. 2. (This registration first occurred when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3. Then all went to be registered, each to his own city. 4. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was from the house and lineage of David (Luke 2)
It couldn’t be further from the situation of the illegal immigrants of today whose detention the Reverend is protesting. Mary and Joseph were obeying a law that directed them to temporarily go from their home to another place where they had roots, and that’s why they were without a place to stay.
A while back I wrote this post on the attitude of Christianity towards immigration. I’m going to quote from it now:
A great many Christians seem to be arguing that we Westerners have a duty to accept all the refugees coming from war-torn countries such as Syria, or those in economic distress such as illegal immigrants from Mexico, whether the “we” be individuals here or in Europe. I’ve read many such arguments on blogs in posts and comments, and have seen them offered by talking heads on TV.
To me as a non-Christian, it is a puzzling argument. To me it seems that the prescription to give to charity, to help the needy, never requires that one help all the needy to the point of beggaring yourself. Nor does it require putting yourself in personal jeopardy. In other words, although Christianity has long admired the saintliness of martyrdom, it does not require it of individuals and certainly not of societies…
Another principle to remember is that generally any behavior that is rewarded will increase in frequency. So, issue an open invitation to your house saying that all who come will be fed and clothed there and given money, and see what happens if you broadcast it throughout the entire world…
I am not completely familiar with the tenets of Christianity, to be sure. But I can’t imagine that it requires such self-destruction in the name of good. To me, it seems that limits are necessary, and the proper topic for debate is the question of where to draw those limits.
Governments all over the world make rules about who can live in their country and who cannot, and while things are being sorted out, people are regularly detained. There is really no other way to do it except anarchy. There are certain groups—and religious groups and people are prominent among them—who don’t believe in any limits, or who would set the limits in such a way as to exclude almost no one.
[NOTE: One more thing—I wonder how the decision was made to erect the protest statues. Was it by the reverend himself? Or was some sort of board of directors involved as well? I very much doubt the entire congregation voted on it, although I suppose that’s possible.]
Forget it Jake…he’s Episcopalian.
I have walked out of several churches when the clergyman began to get political from the pulpit.
I’m all in favor of rescinding the tax exempt status of organized churches. temples and mosques. They are not supposed to be in the business of promoting political ideology, and yet so many of them see it as their obligation.
Bad actions continue to be enabled by the lack of consequences.
Ah, the Episco(self)impalian. Need 5 more years of Bible study, he does. Maybe more.
I hate to defend this but he could be refering to Matthew 2:13
After the wise men were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up! Flee to Egypt with the child and his mother,” the angel said. “Stay there until I tell you to return, because Herod is going to search for the child to kill him”
On the other hand I am very sick of the Joseph and Mary as
homeless stories.
I seem to recall that the novelist J. G. Ballard wrote about when he lived in Shanghai, China, there was an old Chinese beggar that used to beg near their house. He asked his mother if he could give the beggar some food and his mother was aghast and said no. She explained that if he did that, tomorrow every beggar in Shanghai would be outside their door begging for food.
Also in their case they could have asked for asylum as legitimate refugees at a proper entry point. King Herod was killing all male children 2 and under as I recall. Only someone like FDR would turn away jews in such straights
One more thing—I wonder how the decision was made to erect the protest statues. Was it by the reverend himself? Or was some sort of board of directors involved as well? I very much doubt the entire congregation voted on it, although I suppose that’s possible.
neo: I doubt there was a vote. In Episcopal churches this stuff happens when some of combination of the rector, associated priests, the vestry and powerful activist voices make it happen.
However, such actions will usually be backed by 95+% of a progressive congregation, which I assume is the case for this Indianopolis church.
Back in my Episcopal days I attended a group meeting after my church announced its official support of an anti-Iraq War proclamation. I was the only person who stood up to oppose that support.
Not that I thought the church should support my view, but I thought the church should not take sides on the Iraq War.
There were about four other conservatives in the congregation and they didn’t bother to attend. Most of them are gone now.
These do-gooders never really get to the base of problems. If they really wanted to help Latin American refugees, they would be working in their home countries to teach the people moral behavior and how to solve their own problems bottom up. Lots of people would want to help if they thought it would make a difference, but few want to create more welfare states. Empowering people means showing them what they can do to help themselves. Voting for commies and socialists is not the way for them to go.
Latin America needs lots of Dagger Johns.
Now I’m at UNM and each morning on the way to class I walk past the Lutheran Campus Ministry. In one window is a poster in red and white script reading:
What would you do if they took your children?”
However, it’s not just this Indianopolis church. The official Episcopal church position is, unsurprisingly, strenuous opposition to family separation, as well any strong border control efforts.
_______________________________________________
News about families being separated at the southern border of the U.S. has caught international attention. We cannot let this activity continue. Speak out now to defend access to aslyum and to stop families from being separated.
https://advocacy.episcopalchurch.org/immigration?
The Episcopal Church describes itself as “Protestant, yet Catholic”.[4] The Episcopal Church claims apostolic succession, tracing its bishops back to the apostles via holy orders; this claim is, however, rejected by the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches. wikipedia
Further research digs up more of the guts of the matter.
America’s first Anglican bishop, ordained in 1784, was Rev. Samuel Seabury of Connecticut. Rev. Seabury was both a High Churchman and a Freemason.8 To avoid the political repercussions of swearing allegiance to the Church of England so soon after 1776, Seabury was consecrated in November 1784 at Aberdeen, Scotland. Of critical importance to Rome was that the three bish- ops consecrating Seabury were all “nonjuring” bishops. “Nonjur- ing” described the class of Catholic bishops that stood in the succession of “Jacobite” clergy who, remaining loyal to King James II after his abdication in 1689, had refused to take a loyalty oath to James’ successors – his daughter, Mary Stuart, and son-in-law, William of Orange, both Protestants.9 America’s first Protestant bishop, like his Roman Catholic counterpart, owed allegiance to Rome. -Rulers of Evil
That explains why an offshoot of the Church of England, would claim Universal/Apostolic/Catholic lineage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Seabury_(bishop)
Secondary verification.
During the Revolutionary War era, a lot of Protestant reverends and pastors mobilized arms to defend against any possibility of a Bishop being planted in the States or Colonies so to speak.
Afterwards, two bishops arrived, one Catholic, one Church of England although playing many sides.
Rev. Jonathan Mayhew, Dudleian Lecturer at Harvard, inveighed against “Popish Idolatry” in a famous (and arguably prophetic) sermon by that title, saying, “Let the bishops get their foot in the stirrup, and their beast, the laity, will prance and flounce about to no purpose. Bishops will prove to be the Trojan horse by which Popery will subjugate North America.”
The American bishop scare did more to foment the colonists to revolt, and eventually raised more soldiery, than all the tyran- nical writs and tax schemes combined. Immediately, it created permanent Committees of Correspondence, an intercolonial organization of churches, and a “Society of Dissenters” based in New York. These organizations brought all opposed to the Church of England into correspondence with one another, whether in America, Great Britain, or Ireland.-Rulers of Evil
The Founding Fathers seemed to have been more rabble rouser than national legendary history would have liked to portray. A bit too “warlike” perhaps for the descendants of America, that prefers peace, pacifism, and court trials.
Bishop Carroll became the Holy See’s direct representative not just in Baltimore but throughout the U.S. This fact was validated in 1798 by Judge Addison, President of the Court of Common Pleas of the Fifth Circuit of Pennsylvania in the case of Fromm vs. Carroll. Fromm was a recalcitrant German Franciscan who want- ed to establish his own German-speaking, laity-owned parish. Addison ruled that “the Bishop of Baltimore has sole episcopal authority over the Catholic Church of the United States, and without authority from him no Catholic priest can exercise any pastoral function over any congregation within the United States.” Fromm was excommunicated and held up as an example of what happens to rebels against wholesome Church authority. Addison’s use of the term “Catholic Church of the United States” is an interesting judicial notice that Carroll’s ordination institut- ed, for all practical purposes, a secular church ruled by the black papacy. Eminent Catholic historian Thomas O’Gorman concurred in 1895, observing that American Catholicism was, “in its incep- tion, wholly a Jesuit affair and [has] largely remained so.”
Oops, dug too deep there, got to ignore that last part hopefully.
Basically Religious Freedom? Where, wasn’t in the Colonies, so thus people wanted to fight it out to get that Bill of Rights. Which the Left will make sure does us no good at all I can assure you. The Deep State also ,as well, perhaps.
There are certain things people don’t want to know, so they feel emotional enough to defend it or attack it; either way.
I also read Jamestown was founded by the Episcopalian Church… well if they had standards for individuals now as back then, no wonder it collapsed, right.
I very much doubt the entire congregation voted on it, although I suppose that’s possible.
I looked around the church’s website, and I’m pretty sure anyone attending that church is A-okay with the statues thing.
One of the weird things I wondered was why Washington DC sat on top of this weird strip of land called Maryland. What was that all about?
The more I read, the more stuff don’t make any sense as I knock my head against cyber walls.
Seven years into his marriage with Henriette-Marie, Charles found himself stuck between personal indebtedness to Ignatian creditors and a stingy Parliament. In hopes of generating tax rev- enues abroad, he carved a feudal barony out of northern Virginia and granted it to Lord Baltimore. But Baltimore died before devel- oping the grant. The charter passed down to his son, Cecilius Calvert. Calvert, the new Lord Baltimore, called persecuted emigrants desiring religious and tax freedom to participate in a voyage to a place bearing a name dear to Catholics “Maryland,” after the Blessed Virgin. Baltimore did not neglect appealing to the irreli- gious niche as well. A number of his advertisements spoke of the limitless opportunities from settling in “Merrie Land.” On November 22, 1633, two ships, the Ark and the Dove, set sail from London. The passenger list included three Jesuits, sixteen to twenty Roman Catholic gentlemen, several hundred predomi- nantly Protestant slaves and laborers, and Cecilius Calvert’s broth- er Leonard. Leonard Calvert had been appointed Maryland’s first governor. The voyage of the Ark and the Dove was spiritually directed by a Jesuit priest named Andrew White. Educated at both St. Omer’s and Douai, a professor for twenty years in Portugal, Spain, and Flanders, Andrew White is remembered by the Church as “the Apostle to Maryland.” Choosing an Andrew for the task was good liturgical cabalah on the part of the Gesu. Andrew was the brother of the apostle Peter, the first Pope, the Rock upon whom Roman Catholicism claims to be established. Andrew is the Patron Saint of Scotland; King Charles I was a Scot. A personal representative of the king’s brotherly attitude toward Rome could not be more eloquently identified than by the simple name “Andrew.” Andrew White con- secrated the Maryland voyage to two Catholic saints: the Virgin Mary, Protectress of the Jesuits, and Ignatius Loyola, only recently decreed Patron Saint of Maryland by Urban VIII, the second pupil of Jesuits to be elected Pope.-ROE
Can’t stop though, the knowledge is too important and kind of fun.
When the federal government needed some land for a capital, they had to buy it from the Land of Mary. A bunch of Protestant Scottish Rite Free Masonry Founding Fathers decided to buy land grants and other deals from the Church of Rome, even though almost the entirety of Protestant congregations were hostile towards any Church hierarchy, Church of England or the Romans or the Jesuits?
What kind of weird decision was that. Nobody had the internet back then so it is all good, since nobody would know about it that weren’t supposed to know about it.
The story of his, Bishop Carroll’s relation with the Land of Mary, is downright bizzare. So was his support of the Committees of Correspondence, for a Protestant nation. Why would Rome authorize support for the rebellion, except just to smite British Protestants on the face.
For those that don’t know how a religious hierarchy system using bishops works, it is more similar to a military rank system than a civilian concept of status. Bishops often owned more land than nobles did. A province or county, would be headed by the local church, which had a pastor, and they would give loyalty and money to the cardinal or bishop that rules the county: with said county composing of also cities and baronies. So barons would thus have to follow the orders of a bishop strangely enough, although they termed it Bishop-Prince. Because it was a combination of a feudal title with an ecclesiastical one. I’d have to look up my medieval simulation to see what exactly the titles were. They were quite interesting to memorize.
“…the nation’s immigration policy that’s holding families in detention centers at the U.S.-Mexico border.”
Our nation does have an “immigration policy.” It even has a policy that determines what should happen to people who do not request admission.
BTW: in most countries, people who cross the border into another country are considered criminals or invaders.
The bubble headed Rev. Carlsen no doubt also thinks that the parable of the Good Samaritan means the State should forcibly confiscate and redistribute wealth.
Wonder how they will react to the news that now Merkle is going to put the “immigrants” into camps. Germans and Concentration Camps, what a combination. American camps equal Nazis, German camps equal what?
The “religious impulse” is apparently innate to us humans.
This fact has been used from the earliest times of human history to persuade The Stupid Rabble to follow the directives of their God-Leader (on pain of unspeakable punishments in the Great Beyond, because let’s face it, if the God-Leader kills off too many of his Upstart Rabble in the here-and-now he won’t have enough people to tend the crops or defend his territory).
So anyway, this is all just Religious Theatre intended to encourage The Rabble to not-think-too-hard about analyzing the facts – just follow The One True God Of Moral Sanctimony and leave ratiocination to the experts.
Rev Carlsen is obviously a Useful Idiot. HE has chosen to leave the heavyweight thinking to others, and has wound up following some quasi-religion of Virtue-Signaling in lieu of Christianity. Pity the parishioners being “guided” by this dupe. (*)
— — — — —
(*) The Progtards pretend that “Be Niiice” is the essence of Christianity. Not so. “Be Niiice”, as interpreted by those who use it as a weapon against any imposition of universal standards of behavior, means: You -White Christians of the Western Patriarchy- need to make all the accommodations in any dealings
with others we deem to be The Powerless. YOU MUST NOT EXPECT WESTERN STANDARDS OF BEHAVIOR from the “lesser others” whose causes we champion because We Are Morally Superior. (” — and you’re not”. h/t Chevy Chase)
This thing about denying agency to those “lesser others” – can you see the “soft bigotry of low expectations” in that? Can you see the spiritual damage inflicted on those “lesser”s if you never-ever require THEM to “overcome themselves”, put aside their grievances, accept that humans are imperfect, admit that here in the real world Life Is Unfair, and that —> EVERYBODY needs to recognize the same First Principles, and play by the same set of rules, or our civilization falls apart?
Christianity is not a suicide pact.
It’s not only Germany, the EU just a few days ago agreed to set up “controlled centers”:
It’s interesting that Neo, a non-Christian, has a better understanding of Christian scripture than “Reverend” Carlsen who twists actual scripture to conform to his own partially informed political opinions.
It’s no wonder so many believers are leaving the Episcopal Church.
In Orwellian/Humpty Dumpty fashion the left as coopted our language. Illegal aliens have become undocumented immigrants. Sort of like crack dealers are unlicensed pharmacists. There is the rule of law, or there is no rule of law. When there is no rule of law we are all free to impose our own personal whims. The left will not enjoy when all the rules are soggy dead.
They don’t have the numbers, but we have the guns. 5 million NRA members and counting. 300 milion plus firearms in private hands. US private citizens have far more firearms than all the armies and police forces of the entire plant. Any who think we will disarm, I got news for you, American gun owners are not Australian. And the horse you rode in on.
It’s no wonder so many believers are leaving the Episcopal Church.
Chris B: Episcopal church attendance has dropped 26% since 2005.
https://juicyecumenism.com/2016/09/22/episcopal-church-continues-decline/
I walked out of services last Shabbat when they recited this “Prayer for Immigrants:”
We have stood outside the walls
Having experienced the cruelty to “No.”
We have been the illegal immigrants
Having fled from oppression,
Searching for a better life
For ourselves and our families;
Give us strength and courage
To speak out for those in need of
Our advocacy.
Our memories are long and indelible;
We were a people without a land,
We watched as children were torn
From parents, only a generation ago
Some to the left, others to the right.
How can we be silent, when
We too were told, “You have no home.”
Let us speak out for those who have no voice.
Let us welcome those who have no place to go.
Help us to live up to the best of our ideals
Both as Americans and as Jews. And
Remind us of the words of Your Prophet:
“Turn the hearts of parents to their children
And the hearts of children to their parents
Lest your land become a curse.”
There are Holocaust survivors (by now, possibly just children of Holocaust survivors) and Holocaust scholars in our shul who should have said something about this odious comparison. But they didn’t. Of course, I’m a coward too — I went back in when they had finished.
To me as a non-Christian, it is a puzzling argument. To me it seems that the prescription to give to charity, to help the needy, never requires that one help all the needy to the point of beggaring yourself. Nor does it require putting yourself in personal jeopardy. In other words, although Christianity has long admired the saintliness of martyrdom, it does not require it of individuals and certainly not of societies…
neo: In the Gospels, as I recall, Christ was always addressing his followers about what he (and God) expected of them — not how they should judge other people or require others to live up to Christian morality.
When Christ told Christians to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, he didn’t mean petition Rome to start a welfare program. That was something for Christians to do themselves. Many fine Christians still do.
Christ was clear — his kingdom was not of this world and render unto Caeser the things that are Ceasar’s. That’s a key difference between Christianity and Islam.
When the Roman centurion came to Christ to request healing for the centurion’s servant, Christ didn’t give him a lecture about being a lackey running-dog baby-killer for the imperialist state or being a Trump supporter. No. Christ healed the servant and praised the centurion for his faith.
Thank you, huxley. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
What has always irritated me about a lot of the liberal citations of the Bible is that those commands are given, as you say, to individuals. Not to the state.
It does raise the question of how to apply private morality to public policy. But that requires, IMHO, a lot more (dare I say “nuanced”) explanation than citing a verse that is directed to individuals.
Neo, as a conservative Christian, let me share my observation that liberal Christians, and a subset of Pacifist Christians who may otherwise be Conservative, tend to throw the Jewish “Old Testament” out the window. The liberals especially, interpret Jesus sayings in a vacuum about “love” and not “judging” while ignoring warnings he made about future judgement on sin. They take him out of his Jewish roots and make him into some kind of “I am ok, you are ok.” kind of guy who is a moral libertarian. Hence, when Jesus never commented specifically on gay marriage, they say “He never said it was wrong”. They ignore that his only comments about marriage were concerning male and female and ‘gay marriage’ would have been unthinkable to a Jewish teacher in the first century unless he had gone Greek. Jesus said “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfill.” Matthew 5:17. While the Mosaic code spoke out against oppressing the Alien among you, it also recognized he should be under the national (Jewish) law. It also made allowances for invasion and War.
It has also been my observation that liberal Christians also do not like the Pauline writings which make up much of the Christian New Testament. In other words, they take the four gospels- the first four “books” of the New Testament- and interpret them without either considering the Jewish “Old Testament” cradle in which they are sitting and ignoring the Apostles writings which come after the four gospels, all while ignoring many of the not so “happy and nice” things that the four gospels also have to say….so they get “love” all the time….
When I said the Mosaic code “made allowances for invasion and War”, I meant that the Mosaic code was not role over and die pacifist. I actually had a liberal try to quote the part of the Ten Commandments that says ‘thou shalt not kill” to mean Christians could never engage in battle. I pointed out to him that a good translation in to modern English would be “Thou shalt not murder” and that even if one did not understand the different Hebrew words for ‘kill”, the context alone should be a give away that the Mosaic code was not pacifist….
Huxley- and lets not forget that the Apostle Paul actually laid claim to his Roman citizenship(Acts chapter 22)… but then as I said, the liberals tend to not like Paul so much either….
…there are various degrees to which both liberals and conservatives will remove Jesus from His Jewish context…
huxley…I’m not sure which UNM you are referencing, but if it’s an ELCA afflicted Lutheran campus ministry…they are as converged as the Episcopalians & have long ago left the orthodox Christian community.
They’re all “Jesus-free” “leftist gospel of why can’t we all just get along” sorts of folks. Plenty of gay chancel prancers and emasculated feminist theologians making it up as they go along & who wouldn’t recognize Biblical truth if it fell on their rainbow stoles.
jon baker: Good to hear from you! I quite agree.
On account of all the bad press I thought I didn’t like St. Paul until I read him. Such a great heart and penetrating mind. But he was also dealing with nitty-gritty social issues, which don’t necessarily have feel-good resolutions.
How would this quote go over with our liberal Christian friends:
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
2 Thessalonians 3:10
huxley…I’m not sure which UNM you are referencing, but if it’s an ELCA afflicted Lutheran campus ministry…they are as converged as the Episcopalians & have long ago left the orthodox Christian community.
John Guilfoyle: That’s U. New Mexico, Albuquerque. I’m sure it’s an ELCA setup and, yes, they are in the same boat with the Episcopal Church rowing towards Unitarianism.
Recently I was reading up on “Tikkun Olam,” which Jewish SJW’s translate as “repairing the world,” which is to say remaking it in the matrix of the progressive politics.
I understand the orthodox translation is something like “overcoming idolatry” — rather different.
Anyway, progressive Jews are running with “Tikkun Olam,” just as progressive Christians are with the Social Gospel approach.
Michael Lerner, a veteran of the sixties Free Speech Movement and SDS, founded “Tikkun” magazine to press his radical politics from a Jewish platform. In 1995 he was ordained a rabbi.
Obviously we are not going to see a caged Joseph, Mary, Jesus creche scene behind a chain link fence in front of a synagogue, but the same work is going on in Judaism.
Martin Says:
July 3rd, 2018 at 4:27 pm
Also in their case they could have asked for asylum as legitimate refugees at a proper entry point. King Herod was killing all male children 2 and under as I recall. Only someone like FDR would turn away jews in such straights.
* *
Zing.
expat Says:
July 3rd, 2018 at 4:29 pm
These do-gooders never really get to the base of problems. If they really wanted to help Latin American refugees, they would be working in their home countries to teach the people moral behavior and how to solve their own problems bottom up.
* * *
https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-reliance/perpetual-education-fund?lang=eng&old=true
“The Perpetual Education Fund (PEF) loan program helps members of the Church of all ages get an education that leads to a self-reliant job. Since 2001 this program has touched the lives of more than 90,000 individuals around the world. Through loan repayments and generous donations, this fund will continue to lift individuals and families out of poverty and into self-reliance for decades to come.”
Countries in which these loans are available are all third-world.
https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-reliance/perpetual-education-fund/pefcountries?lang=eng&old=true
Albania
American Samoa
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Botswana
Brazil
Cambodia
Cape Verde
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
DR Congo
Ghana
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Haiti
Honduras
Hong Kong
India
Indonesia
Ivory Coast
Jamaica
Kenya
Kiribati
Lesotho
Liberia
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Mexico
Namibia
Nicaragua
Nigeria
Mozambique
Pakistan
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Portugal
Puerto Rico
Samoa
Sierra Leone
South Africa
South Korea
Spain
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent
Suriname
Swaziland
Taiwan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
Uruguay
Vanuatu
Venezuela
Zambia
Zimbabwe
Very interesting discussion. I have been writing about refugee resettlement, immigration, etc. for my denomination for years. I do not totally understand the nuances completely, but I have a reasonable understanding. I have visited detention center and NGOs working with refugees from south of our borders looking for asylum. I have also been volunteering at an orphanage in Honduras for 20 years. Some of these young people have made the perilous journey. Children have lost parents to that migration. Over the years God has revealed a practical way we can help–and that is in educating the young people with vocational training or university. So, we provide a scholarship. Above it was mentioned the Latter Day Saints provide loans. I believe most denominations have similar programs.
In 2014 when I was writing about Honduran child migration and detention centers the issue received a tepid response. The same people are now raging. My fear that an unpopular President has drawn attention, but it will be a political war and the problems will remain. As a Christian, I believe if we the church united to address the issue prayerfully and without politics or involving politicians and government, we could have a solution. We need to listen first without political filters. I try to address the evolution of the laws we have, the difference between asylum seekers and illegal immigrants–as well as the quality of life of folks living in the countries south of our border. I know at least two young men from the orphanage where I volunteer who were murdered in gang violence. I know adult alumni who are being blackmailed and threatened by drug lords and add on the government corruption, poverty, etc. Who can blame them? And I do believe we as Christians are called to care for the stranger, orphan, widow specifically. But this is not care. Screaming for government intervention and blaming the other political side is not care. Care is what we do personally and corporately as a Church. Christianity (and Judaism for that matter) is so tepid, and unengaged in the West that God is not recognizable. I think if we would unite step into the fray–not as competing factions but as followers of Christ and Yahweh, our witness could truly transform the world.
My reason for thinking education a key is that I have seen with my own eyes that a strong middle class will take on the oligarchy to protect themselves and their children. I have seen that the economist Hernando de Soto was correct in his theory of empowering the poor by building their land and financial collateral. I have also seen the failed attempts of Liberation Theology projects trying to empower through communal finance and land management.
I also believe if we step in and “adopt” an illegal immigrant trying to become legal that would be a testimony too. What I mean is stand by them through the process. Go to hearings with them, help them understand the legal documents, etc.
Christianity (and Judaism for that matter) is so tepid, and unengaged in the West that God is not recognizable. I think if we would unite step into the fray–not as competing factions but as followers of Christ and Yahweh, our witness could truly transform the world.
When people mistake a book written by humans for the power and essence of the Godhead, all kinds of problems crop up.
To most secular eyes, Christianity is now one big happy family of ecumenical councils and agreements. In reality, there’s quite a lot of infighting and enmity between certain lines. Just look at the King James Only crowd vs the Latter Day Saints/jehovah Witnesses.
Then there’s the Creationists vs the Latter Day Saints. And everyone should know by now that the Southern Baptist, Catholic, and Protestant denominations in the South supported a peculiar brand of slave theology that was anathema to the abolitionist religious creeds. America has had so many religious conflicts, that without the establishment cause, there would already be a religious war by now.
I’ve repeatedly asked people on other sites who claim “It’s all the U.S.’ fault,” what they would like us to do? Send the Marines in, as we did in the first half of the 20th Century? No answer yet. I’m not holding my breath.
Allowing illegal immigrants to run away from their problems enables the avoidance of consequence. Mexico is a perfect example of a dysfunctional society that refuses to look in the mirror because its less painful to look away than to face the truth. That refusal will continue until Mexican society is faced with a more painful alternative. So too with other dysfunctional societies.
This same situation applies to the US with our drug problem. Our drug epidemic is the result of a cultural abandonment of traditional values inculcated in the young by their parents. Until we reaffirm former societal expectations of parental obligations toward their offspring, the source of the drug problem will continue to manifest its symptoms.
Though far less than today, drug use certainly existed prior to our societal abandonment of traditional cultural virtues. Parental accountability is enforced through societal opprobrium. Shame, when well deserved is a great motivator.
As for those who as adults break societal laws, let the consequence fit the offense. It’s always come down to either the rule of law or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right.
I am a member of the Episcopal church in a small community. There is way too much fuzzy headed thinking on immigration on Sunday, as if we are all God’s children equates to we are all US citizens. On the other hand, the church does good work in the community and relief work (Haiti for example).
It is an ongoing process with me to stay, as I have much love for the liturgy and the congregation. I have been welcomed here for 20 years, and our bishop is a good man. If the local Catholic church wasn’t much the same, I might go there. The Christian faith has endured 2000 years of human folly, and it will endure our current state of events.
Thanks to Neo for an apt take, and a blessed Independence day to us all.
Because of Ymar’s extensive quotes from “Rule of Evil” above, I cite here from a review of this obscure book found on the Amazon listing:
“A supposed expose of conspiratorial corruption that ran reign over the founding of the United States and holds sway over it still, this is a major disappointment.
Saussy claims to have discovered the “facts” presented in this book during ten years on the lam from federal authorities for a crime he didn’t commit. Pretty convincing credentials for the author of an anti-U.S. conspiracy book. He admits that he failed to pay taxes because of a difference in understanding with the government over tax law. His credentials as a hero, however, suffered a fatal flaw when he fled the authorities rather than present his arguments in court.”
I tend to ignore Ymar’s comments, but those here require a riposte.
I tend to ignore Ymar’s comments, but those here require a riposte.
Thanks for ignoring me. It tends to solve a lot of problems in the future.
As for your riposte, an easy counter would be to view how atheists see the Bible or religion as an evil conspiracy out to control humans by limiting progress. Other people, of the Faith, do not see the Bible (even all the versions) in such a fashion.
Saussy claims to have discovered the “facts” presented in this book during ten years on the lam from federal authorities for a crime he didn’t commit. Pretty convincing credentials for the author of an anti-U.S. conspiracy book.
A regular lawyer defense is to attack the credibility of the witness, when they cannot contradict the facts of the case or evidence presented. For example, our well known American patriot, Edward Snowden, was labeled as a traitor. Ironic that Hillary Clinton and Hussein boys would label anyone else a traitor of the USA…
Instead of investigating whether Snowden’s antics and data was valid, it is easier to make people ignore Snowden the person by focusing on perceived personal flaws.
So that people can ignore other people
Meanwhile, Hollywood and District of Columbia dominates the national discussion in such a way that it is designed that people cannot ignore them.
In such a fashion, US citizens operate by perceived free will when their entire reality, subjectively, is dominated by external manipulators. How can you be free to make choices when the information your sources are based on is filtered through gatekeepers that tell all of us which sources to look at and which sources to ignore?
That’s not a free citizen, that’s just a slave that believes they are free. Until they think themselves free, they remain slaves.
Neo, you are right that Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem were not homeless refugees. The pastor *may* have been referring to the Holy Family’s flight into Egypt to escape Herod’s murderous decree. The difference from the modern situation at our borders is that the Holy Family had sufficient funds to pay their way in Egypt, due to the gold, frankincense, and myrrh they’d received from the Wise Men. They were temporary residents, not seeking permanent residence. They left Egypt once they learned of Herod’s death. Egypt, being a fertile river valley surrounded by deserts, also had relatively few safe ways to enter the country, and it’s likely the Egyptians (or, the Romans, who controlled Egypt by this time) would have monitored ingress points so they could levy taxes or bribes.
ohn Guilfoyle said
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/episcopal-priest-or-muslim-redding-will-have-a-year-to-think-about-it/
Redding was, wait for it, the priest in charge of faith formation.
Look, you can either believe in the Isu of the Quran or the Yashua of the New Testament. Or, none. Your call. But you can’t have two. Priestess Redding wanted two. She believed in both the Isu who denied his divinity and the Yashua who confirmed his divinity.
Or so she claimed, the deacon of faith formation.
Folks, and I invite the atheists to weigh in. Thiis is to much of a stretch for me to make.
OBTW, Redding was eventually defroicked, As a Catholic horrified by this Pope I look at main line Protestantism and shudder.
*John Guilfoyle
Roberta B Updegraff Says:
July 4th, 2018 at 11:11 am
Very interesting discussion.
“And I do believe we as Christians are called to care for the stranger, orphan, widow specifically. But this is not care. Screaming for government intervention and blaming the other political side is not care. Care is what we do personally and corporately as a Church. ”
“My reason for thinking education a key is that I have seen with my own eyes that a strong middle class will take on the oligarchy to protect themselves and their children. ”
* * *
Thanks for your addition to the symposium.
Your service with refugees and others is an excellent model.
On adopting refugees, you might be interested in this post on PowerLineBlog by a woman who stepped up and made that sacrifice twice, with mixed results.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/06/thoughts-from-the-ammo-line-225.php
“Now we also happen to know something about illegal alien children. In the early ’90s, we took in a 13-year-old boy, Antonio, from Honduras who had, of course, been coached to request asylum. He was an orphaned street child in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, who had walked from Honduras to Mexico and crossed the Rio Grande at Brownsville. He turned himself in and was placed in the children’s shelter. He referred to the shelter as the most wonderful home he had ever had before ours. They had classes, sports, lawyers, new clothes, food and a clean bed. Paid for by the terrible, racist American taxpayers. Feckless, every last one.”
Neocon,
There are certain groups—and religious groups and people are prominent among them—who don’t believe in any limits, or who would set the limits in such a way as to exclude almost no one.
Yah, this was always the case?
let take sample from the history of illegal immigrants………….
1948 Israel Independence War
xzx:
It is a very recent phenomenon that the no-borders point of view has gained a large following.
And of course the situation for Jews during the build-up to WWII, as well as during WWII, was very different than the situation with illegal immigrants now. Jews faced intense and specific persecution (and later, death) if they didn’t leave, and almost no country on earth would take them. In contrast, most of the illegal immigrants today are economic migrants, or are simply leaving dysfunctional third-world countries. Also, many have quite a few choices of countries that will take them. It’s a very different situation.
In addition, for that small percentage of illegal immigrants today who face intense persecution or certain death, there is a way out via the asylum process. But that process has been much abused.
Neocon
If you allow me, I would like to reply to you
1- when you said “for Jews …, was very different”
I do agree to some degree but in the end comparing this matter in our time today, also wars had its effects for the waves of immigration (legal & illegal immigrants) let take examples from war zones:
– Palestine ,
– Iraq,
– Libya,
– Syria
– Iran and more couturiers all these are experiencing War zones.
So there is no difference to those Jews when they immigrated due the WWII.
2- you saying (if they didn’t leave, and almost no country on earth would take them) history tell us there are many cases the Jew have choses to leave like those Andalusian Jew form early went to North Africa and even when to Ottoman Sultan
The Ottoman Empire and the Jews
Comparing Ottoman Empire vast borderer to today countries its give more chance and place for those Jews at that time not like today were countries with limited land and resources.
But there is main differences between those Illegal Immigrants o Holy-land and today Immigrants.
Those Jews Immigrates taking the land and free it to themselves to crating their own state, none of Immigrates in the past done so??
Please read these links may give you more to open your windows for the history.
Jews in Muslim Spain
GRANADA & ITS JEWISH HISTORY – REALEJO QUARTER
Follow
The Golden Age of Jews in Sepharad/Al-Andalus
Islamic Spain in Middle Ages no paradise for Christians, Jews, women
Laura Khadduri School, the first Jewish school of girls in Baghdad, founded in 1893, reached 1388 students in 1950
Photos go back to 1920
xzx:
Almost the entirety of what you wrote is irrelevant to the issue. For example, the fact that Jews were able to go to certain places many many centuries ago has nothing to do with the options that were open to them in the 1930s and during WWII.
Necon
Sorry, your feedback isn’t my cup of tea.
Yeah, sure Neocon, if that’s your cup of tea then go for it.
Although the fact those historical examples, what your mentioned about WWII, still history giving us many examples that happen due to: wars, disasters, political consequences…etc.
But those more than three million left Iraq during the sanctions or those millions form Syria speaks loudly how they devastated by their own political system or by the external player.
How Sanctions Feed Authoritarianism