13 Russians indicted
I’ve known about Russian internet political interference ever since I started blogging. Doesn’t everyone? Unless the FBI and the DOJ have been living under a rock (one wonders sometimes), they must have known about it, too.
And that’s just the online interference. The interference itself goes back, way way back before the internet existed. This is just an internet version of tons of stuff that went on during the Cold War and that goes on today.
That’s one of the reasons Obama’s debate with Romney, in which the president disdainfully pooh-poohed Romney’s characterization of Russia as our greatest geopolitical foe, was so very offensive. Obama was/is either an ignorant fool or pretending to be one about that, and the media just played right along with him as was/is their wont:
So now we have Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein’s announcement that 13 Russians have been indicted for fraud. The text of the indictment can be found here, and it makes for interesting reading.
My first question is: wasn’t this sort of activity by the Russians being monitored right along? And if so, why not more effectively? And if not, why not? It wasn’t rocket science to figure out this type of thing could and would be happening.
Roger Simon answers the question by saying it was the Obama administration in charge at the time (the indictment indicates the operation in question began in the spring of 2014). But surely, if the Russians were trying to hurt Clinton’s election chances, Obama had a stake in stopping them because his “legacy” depended on her ascending to power.
It’s been pointed out that the indictment itself is rather strange. John Hinderaker writes that the Russians “obviously” violated “52 U.S.C. §30121, which covers ‘meddling’ in U.S. elections by foreign nationals.” And yet they were not indicted for that; they were indicted for fraud against the US. It’s somewhat academic because they won’t be extradited and will never stand trial, but Hinderaker thinks the odd charging is for the purpose of protecting Christopher Steele:
I don’t doubt that election lawyers could come up with defenses for Christopher Steele, were he to be charged with violating §30121. But that is a can of worms that Mueller didn’t want to open. Too many people know the facts behind the Steele dossier, and if he had charged the Russians with meddling in the presidential election under §30121, he soon would have faced questions about why he didn’t indict Steele”“and Glenn Simpson, Perkins, Coie, Clinton campaign officials, and perhaps Clinton”“for the same offense.
The text of the indictment makes it very clear what the Russians were trying to do: “sow discord in the American political system.” They attacked candidates of different stripes (Hillary Clinton and Ted Cruz), urged black people to sit home rather than vote, promoted Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, and after the election turned on Trump and organized some rallies for that purpose.
From the beginning, the goals had nothing to do with favoring Trump over anyone. The operation began in April of 2014, and the goal included interfering with the 2016 election to encourage “distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general.” Trump (and Sanders) was merely a vehicle to do that. He was clearly the most disruptive and chaotic candidate of all, and his elevation was perfect for the Russians—not because of any collusion and quid pro quo, but because he embodied disruption. And Hillary was ripe for the taking—her history and reputation made her a perfect target. The combination must have been well-nigh irresistible to the Russians—but not because they were afraid of her as president and wanted to discourage her candidacy for that reason. They wanted the most negative, divisive, chaotic situation possible, the better to deal with their great geopolitical foe, the United States.
You know how Political Correctness is forbidding people to notice inconvenient facts?
Well, the DOJ & FBI never noticed anything amiss. They are (in my very best Claude Rains voice) ‘shocked, shocked to find out that there’s gambling going on in the casino’.
Haven’t they also talked about hacking into the DNC? Why is no one mentioning Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s Pakistani friend in all this talk? If there is a dem involved in anything, it is never mentioned:
To be taken seriously by the LIVs, a witch hunt must serve up scapegoats. Mueller has nothing substantive, so as ‘evidence’ supporting the continuance of the charade, he has his pet grand jury bring charges against some ineffectual Russian agents.
Geoffrey Britain:
Some ineffectual Russian agents who cannot be extradited and tried.
These Russian agents, and others who have not been identified, succeeded beyond their fondest dreams. All because the Dems cannot believe/accept that Donald Trump won the election fair and square. The Russian collaboration hoax provided them with the ideal cover narrative to try to take down a President Trump. Hence the Mueller investigation.
Trump’s best move now would be to get aggressive about combatting the Russian efforts at disinformation while publically exhorting the Dems to support him in the effort. It would kill two birds with one stone.
“[A]fter the election turned on Trump [the indictees] organized some rallies for that purpose.” My understanding is, these people even organized rallies both pro- and anti- Trump, to take place *on the same day*.
They were in fact out “to encourage ‘distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general,'” and not to tilt anything to favor Trump or any particular candidate.
I’d guess the Russian communists have been trying to influence our elections since, oh… about 1917. Now we’re supposed to wet our pants because they’re doing it through 13 Facebook trolls living in their mothers’ Moscow basements instead of (or in addition to) articles in the New York Times. Consider me unpersuaded. These activities would be getting zero attention absent the need to bring down Trump.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/02/why-mueller-didnt-indict-the-russians-for-meddling-in-the-presidential-election.php
Having gained totally meaningless indictments against extraterritorials from a grand jury (of which it is famously said a decent prosecutor could get an indictment against a ham sandwich), is the Mueller charade over?
Probably not.
Until they can prosecute someone for lying under oath by saying “a” instead of “an”, this pediatric play-acting will continue.
Could someone who understands the law kindly explain to me how election “meddling” can be a crime? Doesn’t the first amendment apply to non-citizens? Are “Dreamers” violating the same law when they vote in our elections, or when they stage protest rallies?
Ed from Texas beat me to the “Shocked!” meme.
But two Eds are better than one:
“I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you!”
Mueller is desperate to wash his ‘integrity’ hands. This whole thing has been a total boomerang investigation that has exposed the dirty tricks and lies of the elite of the left. So quick, indict some scary Russians who will never stand trial. Hubris morphs into fiasco.
Why is a special prosecutor needed to bring charges against foreign nationals?
Hubris morphs into fiasco.
parker: That’s my impression. Fingers crossed…
I just hope Trump doesn’t follow through on his boast that he looks forward to a Mueller interview.
So let me get this straight–after this whole three-ring circus is over the grand finale is the indictment of thirteen Russians for colluding with Russia…?
Who do I see about getting my money back? Mueller? Mueller…?
Seems to me that this indictment, among many non-things, does some things. It seems to me that once you establish that 12 “indictable” Russians were in fact messing with the election you have a situation in which you just need to connect somebody on the Trump team to any or all of these “indicted but unindictable” Russians to have your collusion item on the table.
Jenk:
What makes you think we’re at the grand finale? I don’t hear the fat lady singing. It may be the case, but we have no way to know at this point.
The left is certainly salivating at the idea that this is just the overture.
Interesting reading, the indictment is.
Page 14 contains this remark in quotes, so there is presumably a document to this effect: [to create] “political intensity through supporting radical groups, users (sic) dissatisfied with [the] social and economic situation and oppositional social movements.”
So?
Sounds like a Bernie Sanders effort.
And, Uh-Oh, created fake drivers’ licenses. Which is not a Federal crime!
See p.20 in the indictment for slogans said to have been used. We would not have issue with some of them!
I don’t hear the fat lady singing.
neo: Me neither. I’ll be surprised if this doesn’t go on for another year unless the Obama/Clinton revelations get much worse. (And they are pretty bad already.)
Was Russia the only country meddling with our elections? If not then who else were interfering? If democrats were sincere they would have demanded to get to the bottom and open investigations on all parties meddling, not just Russia to hold them all accountable. Seems to me the dangers posed by other countries meddling with our elections are just as dangerous as Russia, no one seems to care though. If people
I wonder if the counter-investigations get too close to Obama, there might be backroom deal to shut down Mueller’s prosecution.
13 Russians or 13 million plus illegals. Who has the biggest influence on the election?
bof Says:
February 17th, 2018 at 7:27 pm
Could someone who understands the law kindly explain to me how election “meddling” can be a crime? Doesn’t the first amendment apply to non-citizens? Are “Dreamers” violating the same law when they vote in our elections, or when they stage protest rallies?
jon baker Says:
February 17th, 2018 at 11:39 pm
13 Russians or 13 million plus illegals. Who has the biggest influence on the election?
* * *
Yes, if the Russians are indicted the illegals should be as well; as PowerLine suggests:
“It was in order to avoid that pitfall, I suspect, that Mueller overlooked the most relevant federal offense that the Russians committed, and instead charged them with a vague “conspiracy to defraud,” along with wire fraud, bank fraud and identity theft. The first charge is entirely discretionary on Mueller’s part, and Steele didn’t commit wire fraud, bank fraud or identity theft.”
I submit that many of the illegals (certainly more than 13) are guilty of the same crimes, especially the third.
Did they influence the election?
We got Trump — so I would say, yes, they did.
Just not the way they wanted to.
My take on why Obama didn’t take any actions against the Russian trolls until it looked like they could use them to harass President Trump: they knew that the Russian efforts were totally ineffective*, and taking any action would just draw attention to the anti-Hillary ads again, which (since Her Highness had now been crowned (supposedly)) was too fraught and unnecessary.
*A recent study shows that campaign ads and other typical expenditures have very little influence on elections;I can’t find the one I read this week, of course, but these are close.
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/spenkuch/research/advertising.pdf
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/10/26/163652827/nine-states-near-unlimited-cash-a-flurry-of-ads
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_advertising#Effects_of_political_advertising
http://politics.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190228637.001.0001/acrefore-9780190228637-e-217
Naturally, PowerLine went straight to the bottom line last year:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/11/were-you-influenced-by-russian-propaganda.php
vanderleun Says:
February 17th, 2018 at 8:32 pm
..you just need to connect somebody on the Trump team to any or all of these “indicted but unindictable” Russians to have your collusion item on the table.
* *
Except the indictment specifically says that no Americans, including Trump campaign members, were aware that they were corresponding with Russians, therefore no collusion.
Andy McCarthy (natch) makes the best point about that (while pointing out the international can of worms that Mueller is messing with):
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/russia-launches-information-war-us-responds-with-lawsuit/
“Finally, since the indictment is a political document, we should evaluate its political impact at home. On balance, it is good for President Trump. The Russian election-meddling scheme stretches back to the years before he became a political candidate. To the extent there was Russian outreach to the Trump campaign, the indictment makes clear that the campaign acted unwittingly. Not only does that mean there was no collusion on the face of things; it means there was almost surely no collusion at all. Had there been an established framework of Trump—Russia coordination, there would have been no need for Russians to reach out to unwitting Trump-campaign officials.“
Sven Says:
February 17th, 2018 at 5:41 pm
I’d guess the Russian communists have been trying to influence our elections since, oh… about 1917. Now we’re supposed to wet our pants because they’re doing it through 13 Facebook trolls living in their mothers’ Moscow basements instead of (or in addition to) articles in the New York Times.
* * *
Indeed.
Do we really need to cite details?
M J R Says:
February 17th, 2018 at 5:24 pm
“[A]fter the election turned on Trump [the indictees] organized some rallies for that purpose.” My understanding is, these people even organized rallies both pro- and anti- Trump, to take place *on the same day*.
* * *
I’m not going to link the several posts I read on the day the indictments were revealed, but only one of the MSM outlets I looked at mentioned the bi-partisanship of the Russian meddling, waaaaaayyy down past the screaming headline.
Gee, I wonder why.
J.J. Says:
February 17th, 2018 at 5:21 pm
…
Trump’s best move now would be to get aggressive about combatting the Russian efforts at disinformation while publically exhorting the Dems to support him in the effort. It would kill two birds with one stone.
* * *
If only someone on the team is as smart as you are!
He has, actually, played this game on other topics, but this is a real winner.
For your further reading enjoyment —
https://pjmedia.com/trending/robert-mueller-mad-russian-agent/?singlepage=true
(check this one out especially for the picture)
“Hey, guys, I have a news flash. It will rock your world. Or at least I guarantee it will rock the MSM’s world as well as blow the minds of some millennials who believe the dog and pony show.
Are you ready? Are you seated? Good, because this will require the full response of your shocked face. I know it called up mine.
Okay, ahem, here it is: believe it or not nations and other political-economic powers try to influence other nations and political-economic powers, including putting out propaganda during elections and sometimes even — gasp — subsidizing propaganda groups in other countries.
I know! Aren’t you astonished? It’s only been going on since there have been nations, or perhaps even hominid tribes. Even the U.S. has tried to do it, although admittedly not particularly subtly or well. But apparently, this is news to the MSM and children. (I know, I repeat myself.)”
https://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/biased-incompetent-fbi/#comment-3763017806
“Disinformation, as most intelligence officials know, or should, has been a hallmark of Russian intelligence since the czars. (Remember The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?) These particular Russkies began their disinformation campaign back in 2014, two years before the election.
Wait… 2014?
Where was the FBI? Why did it take them so long to unmask a fairly paltry one million dollar Internet campaign using the most old-style Soviet front groups, although throwing them up online this time? Could it be because this all got started under Obama and he was the one who famously excoriated Mitt Romney during the 2012 presidential debates for daring to point out that Russia was still a serious threat? Obama (busy cozying up to and ultimately enriching Iran) accused Mitt of being back in the eighties. The Cold War had been over for twenty years. No wonder the FBI wasn’t paying much attention to Putin & Co.
Evidently it took the Trump-Russia gambit to get them off their duffs to discover this giant espionage ring–this even though Rosenstein admitted during his press conference it had no impact on the election and did not involve a single willing U.S. citizen. At certain levels, it seemed almost like a practical joke.
Incompetence, indeed. It’s worth remembering that the FBI has a history of missing out on Russian threats. Back in 1940, Whittaker Chambers also famously came forward to warn them about the Ware Group of Soviet spies, including Alger Hiss, that had infiltrated the highest levels of the U.S. government–something far more serious than we have today–but his warnings were dismissed by the feds. Chambers was right, of course. At least the excuse at that point was that the FBI was more worried about the Nazis than the communists. Nowadays, the excuse seems to be Donald Trump.
No, our FBI is not the stuff of legend, if it ever was, although, obviously, good, hard-working people work there. But it doesn’t seem to be doing its job. In fact, it seems to be doing the wrong job. The bias and incompetence have infected each other to a degree that is indeed lethal. They are a bureaucratic organization gone rotten.
The solution isn’t that complicated but it’s painful. Since the fish rots from the top, cut it off. All of it.”
https://townhall.com/columnists/thomasjfarnan/2018/02/17/where-is-the-democratic-outrage-over-spying-on-americans-n2450480
“The FBI’s domestic intelligence gathering function caused understandable discomfort on the left. In 1970s apocrypha, President Nixon couldn’t wait to get the goods on undesirables like the Smothers Brothers. Or so we were told by the Smothers Brothers, back when the FBI’s mission creep cast it as the Gestapo.
In response to Nixon’s perceived overreach, liberal Idaho (before those words were an oxymoron) Senator Frank Church set up a commission to investigate domestic surveillance abuses. Technology, by then, permitted federal agencies to capture huge amounts of wire communications without disclosing their eavesdropping to Americans who were being surveilled.
Senator Church stated his concerns on an episode of Meet the Press:
“If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny [against those who] combine together in resistance to the government.”
CARTOONS | ROBERT ARIAIL
VIEW CARTOON
The result of Senator Church’s work was the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA). It provided that the FBI could not use its technological capacity to secretly gather intelligence against an American without first going to court with credible evidence that the citizen was a spy.
…
Perhaps the most amazing thing about this story is the lack of outrage. The great conceit of the left is that they are willing to stand for principle even on behalf of unpopular actors. Here, they have thrown principle out the window because they don’t like Trump. That’s messed up.
In the name of Frank Church, in the name of liberal Idaho, in the name of the Smothers Brothers, the country needs your outrage over this, Democrats.”
Agree with Neo and others who say that this is not over. I reiterate my general impression that neither side has shown all its cards. OK lest switch metaphors – to chess. All we have seen so far from both sides are pawn moves with one exception – Nunes is the White Knight who has come out from behind the pawn screen to stake out some central territory. The whole point in a chess opening is to dominate the centre. Nunes is putting pressure on all sorts of FBI and DOJ people many of whom have resigned or been reassigned. It is not hard to see that he intends to keep attacking and that he has both the previous president (the King) and his would be successor (the Queen) in mind. But remember that he and the other Congressional investigators can’t charge anyone. Meanwhile we have the white Bishop (Sessions) sitting there quietly not showing much.. Is he part of the swamp and out to get Trump or is he biding his time? I think both sides are playing a long game and we will just have to wait and see how the middle game works out. I think we will see both sides attempt decisive moves in the run up to the mid-term elections. Mueller may have something up his sleeve and be more clever, partisan and determined than we think. And he may be what he looks like – a career bureaucrat looking to get through this with his reputation intact. Nunes, on the other hand has been after Obama since Fast and Furious and we know he fought tirelessly even when he knew he couldn’t win. My money is on the white knight. And, no, that is not an Alt Right dog whistle. 😉
Indicted for trying to “sow discord in the American political system.”
If that is the case, why aren’t half our politicians being charged as well?
Why isn’t half of Hollywood being indicted for trying to get College Electors to change their votes to vote for anyone but Trump?
It seems to me these charge are nothing but a “we tried to find something and couldn’t so we’ll have to do this” type of nonsense.
And THAT is more damaging to our political process that anything the Russians did.
The FBI has a rotten history from Hoover on. As a result of the FBI’s COINTELPRO program and other illegal activities, the Weather Underground (Bill Ayers and his merry band of domestic terrorists) got off with minimal charges.
However, although the Church Committee is celebrated as a great triumph of American ideals, in retrospect it looks more like the liberal Young Turks overthrowing the conservative Old Guard for reasons of power.
Mark Felt was a top man in the FBI. After Hoover died in his sleep, Patrick Gray was chosen to succeed Hoover and Felt felt he had been unfairly passed over. As a consequence Felt became the source known as “Deep Throat” in the Washington Post’s investigation of the Watergate scandal, which brought down Nixon.
Ironically Felt, who supervised the COINTELPRO program, was later charged with conspiracy to violate the constitutional rights of citizens with illegal searches.
So nothing is simple when great power is involved. Today’s FBI abuses are just another turn of the screw, only this time under liberal leadership and with a complicit liberal press.
Felt is also interesting as another example that people can indeed keep secrets. Some in the Nixon administration and elsewhere suspected Felt was Deep Throat, but that secret was kept until Felt outed himself in a 2005 Vanity Fair article.
Better yet, he did so because his family wanted him to use the publicity to pay for his grandchildren’s college educations!
I haven’t seen “The Post” film about the awesome, uplifting story of WaPo’s role in Watergate, but it’s more complicated than that, especially given the disgraceful water-carrying the Post and the media in general have done to cover up the Obama/Clinton/DoJ/FBI abuses.
Sven said:
True. Before we had the internet, the Soviets/Russians would simply plant stories with sympathetic reporters. And they’d ask sympathetic editors to spike stories that weren’t “helpful.” Does it surprise anyone that the MSM has been a traitorous crowd at least ever since Walter Duranty won a Pulitzer for carrying Stalin’s water during the Holodomor, writing that there was no starvation in Ukraine?
Since the Democrats had the same need as Putin to destroy Trump, they’re Putin’s witting allies. They had to know what I’ve known for years about Putin’s track record in Europe. He benefits from chaos, so no matter who wins he simply wants to delegitimize an weaken the winner. Essentially the Democrats were Putin’s team mates in a relay race. Putin ran the first leg, then passed the baton to the Congressional Dems and Obama holdovers and they eagerly took it and ran with it.
“…for the purpose of protecting Christopher Steele…”
This cannot be stressed enough.
Indeed, “for the purpose of protecting Christopher Steele”…
…AND FURTHER…
…for the purpose of continuing to distort and conceal the history of Obama’s and Clinton’s criminal disruption of the 2016 Presidential elections—and Obama’s suborning of the DOJ and the FBI—so as to make it appear that it is Trump’s (not Obama’s and Hillary’s) collusion with Russia that must be investigated and thus enabling the Mueller to continue his fraudulent, unconstitutional and country-destroying investigation.