Immigration deals are in the works
But we have little idea what they are or what their ultimate fate will be.
More here—or about as much, which is to say next to nothing that isn’t very changeable:
A bipartisan group of senators, led by Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.), Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), said they were nearing a deal that resembled the framework Trump laid out for Democrats and Republicans ”” legal protections for dreamers; changes in security along the U.S.-Mexico border; restrictions on family migration policy, which some conservatives deride as “chain migration”; and changes to a diversity lottery system that grants visas to 55,000 people from countries with low immigration each year…
Durbin, Flake and Graham have been part of ultimately unsuccessful bipartisan immigration talks that date back to at least 2006.
In a joint news conference Wednesday…Trump was asked if he would support a DACA bill that did not include money for the border wall he has proposed.
“No, no, no,” he replied. “It’s got to include the wall. We need the wall for security. We need the wall for safety. We need the wall to stop the drugs from pouring in. I would imagine the people in the room, both Democrat and Republican ”” I really believe they are going to come up with a solution to the DACA problem that’s been going on for a long time, and maybe beyond that, immigration as a whole.”
I’d take it.
But I wonder whether, if Trump concedes on DACA, his base will be very, very angry or surprised. They shouldn’t be surprised, because—as I’ve indicated before—he’s always given contradictory signals on DACA, even during the campaign.
The notion that DACA deal grants the Democrats millions of new voters only make sense if chain immigration remains in place. If giving these thousands of dreamers legal protection is the price to pay for an real and legit end to chain immigration I think that would be a good deal but I doubt that would be the case.
I still think the bigger fly in all this ointment will be whether or not the whole “sanctuary” BS is brought to a screaming end. If rogue states and rogue state officials refuse to enforce the law of the land no deal is worth the ink & paper it took to print it.
I know what I’d prefer, but I’d take an end to chain immigration, a wall, and a return to the rule of law.
RE: “chain migration”
I have a certain amount of compassion for children who came to the US because their parents forced them to. So if a deal is stuck that allows them to stay, I have no objection, provided they aren’t criminals.
Yes, all 800,000 of them.
However, I cannot express my complete disgust at any deal that rewards the parents with any legal status. If a parent took their child across the border through the desert, then they endangered the life of the child. If they sent the child in the “care” of a smuggler, they endangered the child. I have read that border patrol agents frequently come across dead bodies, including the bodies of children. Such “parents” should be put in prison for ten years, deported, and never allowed legal entry.
They should not be rewarded by being allowed to stay in this country. There is a very old principle of law that says that criminals should not profit from their crimes.
Of course the DNC want them to stay. They are 3.2 million more DNC votes. Anyone who proposes such a thing should contemplate the dead children. [“Think of the children! For God’s sake, won’t somebody think of the children!”]
I have less than zero sympathy for those who have entered illegally, for whatever reason. Cry me a river.
parker: So if a child (less than ten) is forced to do something illegal by a parent, you have less than zero sympathy for them? Really?
Does that apply to all crimes or just illegal entry? For example, if a child is sexually abused, that’s no different than any other person? If a child is forced to steal or sell drugs, that child is responsible?
The fact that the child didn’t have a choice doesn’t matter? If so, does that mean that “intent” is irrelevant?
Well, the presidential, in-charge Trump at yesterday’s meeting didn’t last long:
to win a battle of ideas simply stating “I have less than zero sympathy for those who have entered illegally, for whatever reason” will not win people over. Its a competition of crafting a compelling narrative both morally and logically superior over the other side to win in the public opinion arena. Democrats argue that the lack of pathways to come to America is what prompted them to come here illegally, it was not their faults, it is America’s fault for shutting them out. it is the job of Conservatives to get the idea across that in reality everyone in the world can apply to immigrate to America, the door of America is open to basically everyone who has never committed felony (non political crimes), but certain people with needed and short supplied skills can be move up the queue. Illegal immigrants are people who have no advantages over other applicants other than the fact that they live in a country very close to America and chose to cut in line ahead of everyone else simply because they don’t accept their rightful places in the queue…
Ann:
Those are sh*thole countries, tell me why those ain’t sh*thole countries? explain to me how should we describe countries where black people kill each other in the millions because a certain people were favored by the Belgians
If those are such wonderful countries, when are liberals going to immigrate there and forfeit their American citizenships so more people from those sh*thole countries can come here? Liberals wouldn’t even immigrate to Canada as they promised before the election.
And in Harry Truman routinely used extremely anti-Semitic language and then became one of the first and most important backers of the nation of Israel and Lyndon Johnson, the saintly champion of civil rights, was a straight up racist who used the most foul expressions about blacks.
IN PRIVATE. Just like this alleged comment by Trump. Are we all to be judged by are private comments now? Would anybody pass this judgment?
Anybody?
I am all for allowing everyone in Africa and mexico to immigrate to California and we build a wall around California to block immigrants from spreading into the rest of the country. See how wonderful diversity is with 5 billion people living together in California.
Kevino, please explain what is cruel about reuniting children with their parents? If the parent is in Mexico, that is where the child should be. If the parents are here illegally and deported, the child should accompany them. I guess you are simply reaffirming the adage, “control the rhetoric and control the debate”.
Ann, I am more incensed by the fact that the President’s words, uttered in a confidential discussion, were leaked; more than his use of crude, but accurate, descriptions. Ironical in this age, when gutter language seems to be a mark of sophistication if used publicly by the glitterati and the literati, becomes so distressing when used privately by others.
‘our private comments’
Does it not show a lack of judgment, if nothing else, to talk like that with Democrats in the room?
Immigration supposedly is all about bringing brilliant people here so they can use their resources and IQ to lift poor Americans out of poverty, not bringing valueless people here so we can take the burden off the sh*thole countries they were from to lift those sh*thole countries out of poverty and turn America into a sh*thole country.
should children of drug dealers keep some of the money their drug dealing parents made from dealing drugs after they were arrested and convicted for selling drugs? END chain immigration, birthright citizenship and only accept immigrants who have advanced degrees with rare highly sought after skill set or billionaires
Ann,
Are you saying Democrats are untrustworthy?
And by the way this is pretty standard language for a lot of people about third world countries. Some may even be leftists.
Republican Congresswoman Mia Love of Utah’s 4th Congressional District has issued a statement in response:
“The President’ comments are unkind, divisive, elitist, and fly in the face of our nation’s values. This behavior is unacceptable from the leader of our nation. My parents came from one of those countries, took an oath of allegiance to it, and took on the responsibilities of everything that being a citizen comes with. They never took a thing from our federal government. They worked hard, paid taxes, and rose from nothing to take care of and provide opportunities for their children. They taught their children to do the same. That’s the American Dream. The President must apologize to both the American people and the nations he so wantonly maligned.”
In and of itself, the border wall is of limited effectiveness. But Trump has hung his Presidency upon it.
Nothing Trump could do would be more damaging to his base’s support than for Trump to sign off on DACA without border funding… Which is why neither the democrats nor the RINOs will vote for it.
Ann,
Proven, unrepentent liars forfeit all trust, all credence…
Nothing NBC reports can be believed. Nothing a democrat claims can be believed.
Ann, 6:46 pm — “Does it not show a lack of judgment, if nothing else, to talk like that with Democrats in the room?”
Reminiscent of Mitt Romney’s 47 percent.
Even if there are (supposedly) none of the enemy in the room, always assume there are, because the walls have ears.
M J R,
Yes, it’s unwise but my point would be is that is how many, I dare say most, people talk in daily interactions. But now we have all these people clutching their pearls and falling on their fainting couches in shock.
And I’m sure people like Ann were raising all kinds of questions about far more public comments about ‘bitter clingers’ and ‘punishing our enemy’ from the prior president. Those were about American citizens by the way. I’m sure Ann was deeply, deeply concerned about his judgment.
(The percent of Americans who Romney said pay no income tax
. . . not Romney’s share of the 2012 popular vote!)
I hold no brief for Obama, and I was “deeply concerned” about his judgment as well.
Why does anyone believe a report about saying “shithole” when it is reported by NBC news who claims they h eard it from a democrat who heard it…
Enough already.
… a democrat who heard it from somebody and was “briefed.”
Ignore what he says because it’s all part of his act. Pay attention to what regulations he pulls, what judges he appoints, and what legislation he signs or vetoes. The rest is distraction.
“In a written statement, Raj Shah, the White House deputy press secretary, did not deny the account of the meeting on Thursday or directly address Mr. Trump’s comments.”
So the White House is admitting Trump said what has been reported.
Does Trump knqw we need the help of those countries on drugs, terrorism, diseases, and, yes, immigration?
If not, one of the adults in the White House should exlain those facts to him.
Nothing is more maddening to me in today’s revelations than these sh*thole countries enjoy a special immigration status over countries with more qualified applicants who could truly give our country a great lift. instead we will take in more people from sh*thole countries for no other reasons than their skin colour. Instead of getting rewarded based on merits, someone will get rewarded just for for the genetic jackpot of being born with a skin colour that influential liberals favoured to satisfy their moral superiority complex.
So we are going let more rats from the rat holes in just because they rat out other more stinking rats? There wouldn’t be a need of intel on terrorism if simply stop letting people from anti America countries in.
Again this was a private meeting in the White House with members of Congress.
So does everybody agree that the president, whoever they may be, should be able to speak freely, and yes even crudely, when meeting with other members of government privately?
Again, privately. Is anything said in these private meetings fair game to be leaked?
If you’re ok with this then you need to think the logical extension of this through.
Jim Miler,
‘Does Trump knqw we need the help of these countries’
Do you not think that every president virtually every day says something that many foreign countries wouldn’t like when discussing issues with other members of the government? The answer is obviously yes and it would be nice to live in a country where even members of the opposition party would understand this.
Again, this was in private not on twitter or at some rage filled press conference.
Of course this assumes this even happened which in these times might be assuming too much.
A better word would have been “dysfunctional.”
Synonyms for dysfunctional: flawed, broken, debilitated, decayed, defective, deteriorated, inhibited, maladjusted, sick, undermined, unfit, wounded.
Yep, it describes a lot of nations around the world, not just Africa and Haiti. It’s a nice way of saying “sh*thole. Unfortunately, that’s not the way the Prez swings.
We’ve had other Presidents who were “plain spoken.” Jackson, Truman, and Johnson come to mind. Probably a few others. Don’t think this is a Constitutional Crisis, but you wouldn’t know it.
Question for the trump criticizing law maker who was an immigrant from one of the sh*thole countries, if the country was so great, why did her family escape from there.
The Other Chuck Says:
January 11th, 2018 at 10:51 pm
Ignore what he says because it’s all part of his act. Pay attention to what regulations he pulls, what judges he appoints, and what legislation he signs or vetoes. The rest is distraction.
* * *
Haven’t read the story, don’t intend to, don’t know what countries he referred to, BUT, all this leaking of private conversations is why Trump had the public immigration negotiation videoed by the press, and he knows a lot of his base agrees with him in both substance and language.
Crazy like a fox.
M J R Says:
January 11th, 2018 at 7:07 pm
Even if there are (supposedly) none of the enemy in the room, always assume there are, because the walls have ears.
* * *
Does anyone really think Trump doesn’t know this, and may even count on it?
you Can’t hope to go to heaven and be a slut too (I could have said you can’t have your cake and eat it too, but like my beloved president I am a vulgar and criminally honest dude as well). You can’t be complaining about the president calling your country of origin a little sh*thole when your family like millions other can’t wait to escape from it while receiving billions of aids from us each year. This is the problem of helping out unappreciative people, you give them a place to live when they are homeless, and they are mad with you because they is no air conditioning.
J.J., 11:51 pm —
“A better word would have been ‘dysfunctional.’ . . .
Yep, it describes a lot of nations around the world, not just Africa and Haiti.”
Yeah. “Dysfunctional” also describes USA in many, many ways.
Ann Says:
January 11th, 2018 at 7:05 pm
Republican Congresswoman Mia Love of Utah’s 4th Congressional District has issued a statement in response:
“The President’ comments are unkind, divisive, elitist, and fly in the face of our nation’s values. This behavior is unacceptable from the leader of our nation. My parents came from one of those countries, took an oath of allegiance to it, and took on the responsibilities of everything that being a citizen comes with..”
* * *
I love Mia but she seriously needed a line editor here.
However much I sympathize with her personal reaction, she is mistaking individuals for statistical norms here.
Every “dysfunctional” country (agree with JJ here) has both stellar citizens and worse-than-average thugs.
The good ones try to come here because even the average citizens are thugs.
Not always their fault (see the Iran post today and comments about why countries with their civil and legal system will never be as functional as Western nations back in the day — we’re losing our advantages, but haven’t hit bottom yet).
I know great people from some of these dysfunctional countries; they came here legally, and I am glad to have them.
But that doesn’t mean I think it’s wise to transplant their entire population.
* *
Dave Says:
January 11th, 2018 at 11:57 pm
Question for the trump criticizing law maker who was an immigrant from one of the sh*thole countries, if the country was so great, why did her family escape from there.
* *
That’s not exactly what Mia said, but the inference is validly taken. Note also that (based on reports here; haven’t read the sources) Trump may not have criticized the individual migrants en masse, just the characteristic nature of their native land.
what trump meant was why are we proportionally taking more immigrants in from dysfunctional countries than prospering countries like Norway. Someone needs to dig into immigration data to find out if we are taking more immigrants from dysfunctional nations and especially are we taking in more people from there in the expense of applicants from first world nations like Norway or japan.
http://dailycaller.com/2018/01/11/tucker-brings-up-a-point-that-silences-those-upset-by-trumps-sole-comments/
Since we’ve already gone off on one tangent, why not take another side trip?
Everything about Trump and his opponents is connected anyway.
https://libertyunyielding.com/2018/01/11/msm-miss-point-trumps-fisa-slam-perfectly-illustrating-big-discourse-problem/
“The media ran around in circles all day chasing Trump’s violation of the conventions for political messaging, without conveying anything useful to the people.
Trump actually communicated useful information to the people. It just didn’t sound like conventional political messaging to the MSM — which proceeded to harp on that, as if it’s what matters when the people have been at risk of improper surveillance by their government for years.”
Oldflyer:
RE: “Please explain what is cruel about reuniting children with their parents?”
What’s cruel about it is that many (most) are young children. Do you remember what your life was like before first grade? I don’t. I’m told we lived in a very different place, but I cannot picture it. For many, this is the only country they know. Some of these individuals have stated that they had no idea that they were not here legally. Removing them from this country and sending them someplace that they don’t know is, IMHO, cruel.
And they will be made to suffer for a decision they didn’t make.
RE: “If the parent is in Mexico, that is where the child should be. If the parents are here illegally and deported, the child should accompany them.”
That’s not the situation. They have parents or guardians in this country who have raised them. Many of those aren’t here legally. The game being played is to give the Dreamers citizenship, and they, in-turn, we confer permanent alien status on the illegals who raised them.
Of course, some have guardians who are here legally. They will likely remain here. Therefore, it’s worse that the Dreamer will be deported.
Most importantly, the Dreamers aren’t children anymore: they are adults.
Oh, “horse manure”. I wonder how the people who leave those countries in leaky boats, on home-made rafts, or locked in the back of semi-trucks would describe them? There are clearly some characteristics of their home countries that make them desperate to leave.
Congresswoman Love is admirable in many respects; in this instance she is simply playing to the media. Trump did not insult the people who came; he described the conditions that they left. Good grief; I thought you were better than that, Mia Love.
One has to feel compassion for those who make such desperate leaps. On the other hand, how many dysfunctional people can we take without turning our country into “deleted” (so as not to offend)..
For MJR, and others of like attitude; do you find the U.S. dysfunctional enough to make the same kind of leap? Of course not. What’s your point?
By the way, with regard to Presidential language; when the very proper Jimmy Carter publicly said, and repeated for emphasis, that if Teddy Kennedy ran against him, “I will whip his ass”, many media outlets could not bring themselves to repeat it verbatim. However, Johnny Carson did because, “I just wanted to say ‘whip his ass’ on the air”. Titilating.
I am no longer in support of giving DACA wetdreamers protections, send them home, if every year thousands of legal immigrants have no problem moving to a new country and assimilate just fine, dreamers should have no problem moving back their homeland and assimilate just fine.
I am getting sick and tired of democrats every single day smear my president and trying to illegally remove the president I had a hand in putting in place, and I am getting sick and tired of ungrateful immigrants treating charities as entitlements, go home and get back in line like everyone else.
if diversity is such a wonderful thing, Liberals should take the lead and mass immigrate to sh*thole countries to spread this wonderful thing around the world, culturally enriching these sh*thole countries to bring them all out of poverty since diversity is so miraculous that it can cure AIDS
The problem is that American dislike of immigrants is merely displaced anger at the treason of the elites.
They want to crack down on immigrants because they don’t want to deal with the bigger problems long term, which is all the traitors in DC that needs to hang.
That they can’t touch, including HRC or Hussein or their other boy messiahs.
Deep State disallows and what the Deep State, and the Federal Reserve declares, the Americans bow knee to.
But immigrants are powerless, come from no influential family whatsoever that matters, and can be hammered from all corners of society. That, Americans can improve on, using law or leverage.
But the harder they pound on the law enforcement, the more people will grow dissatisfied at all the necks being unstretched in DC, doing far worse to your country than getting a paycheck from it.
Immigrants voting Demoncrat would be less of a treasonable panicky issue for the so called patriots here, if it was not for the Demons being Demons after all in the election process.
The Demoncrats pretend to honor your election systems, and Americans pretend their elections matter in return.
vanderleun Says:
January 11th, 2018 at 8:19 pm
… a democrat who heard it from somebody and was “briefed.”
Because Americans and humans still believe in the need for a Ruling Class, which might as well be their free press, even though they complain constantly about lack of transparency and being lied to.
Humans complain, and then they go back to their vomit. Classic behavioral conditioning for slaves.
@ Dave January 11th, 2018 at 1:59 pm:
“The notion that DACA deal grants the Democrats millions of new voters only make sense if chain immigration remains in place.” No, it also includes all the people that agree that it’s a moral imperative to not send kids raised as and identifying as Americans to countries that are wholly foreign to them over a misdemeanor that their parents, and not they as children, committed.
Further, what else do you not know about Hispanics, the largest ethnic group in America, beyond what you’ve shown? You think Hispanic-Americans can’t see the moral imperative and can’t identify with these kids?
@Ymar Sakar January 12th, 2018 at 6:50 pm:
“Because Americans and humans still believe in the need for a Ruling Class, which might as well be their free press, even though they complain constantly about lack of transparency and being lied to.” This is simply disjointed. Nothing more needs to be said.
Ariel:
Before DACA was in place, these people ordinarily were not being sent back anywhere unless they had committed a serious crime, and often not even then. (And in fact, to be eligible for DACA under Obama, a person needed to have “NOT been convicted of a felony, certain significant misdemeanors [including a single DUI], or three or more misdemeanors of any kind,” too).
Sure, there are those who would like to get rid of DACA and send them all back to wherever they had come from as children (for example, that’s the position Dave stated in this thread). But that’s a small minority who would advocate that position. Most people who are against DACA want it ended because it grants its recipients extra rights compared to what they had before DACA, and rewards their parents’ illegal immigration, not because they want to send them all back. I don’t think there’s much chance at all that they will be sent back, either; it’s a highly unpopular position.
And by the way, you can make your points and also disagree with people without insulting other commenters here. I don’t always catch it when people insult others, but I try to nip it in the bud. Otherwise the comments descend into back-and-forth name-calling. I call your attention to this and this.
Neo,
Your comment reminded me of the Republican explanation for removing the Medical Expenses deduction as “it’s a once in a lifetime deduction, wouldn’t you want to have your taxes lower every year?.” That ignores that for the chronically ill it isn’t just once in a lifetime, it’s every year. So the pertinence…
The children brought here illegally by their parents have always faced deportation. We can ignore that for ‘well, it only happens when’ but we would ignore the cases where ‘when’ didn’t apply while they know those cases well. DACA doesn’t grant those children ‘extra rights’, it grants that those children are culturally American, think of themselves as Americans, know no other place than America, are not Mexicans, Central Americans, or South Americans and know they are Americans with the rights of Americans. When they reach their majority, they then face that America rejects them.
Further, the arguments of granting ‘extra rights’ and ‘rewards the parents’ is the argument of those that still sees them as only illegals, like Dave does. Me, i think it is a moral imperative to reject both arguments, recognize that they aren’t guilty of the misdemeanors of their parents, and that it is only about them as cultural Americans. I embrace jus soli (many English speaking countries don’t), citizenship by parentage, but I also have to embrace cultural American citizenship for those that know no other country. Trump is right in this regard, Congress needs to step up and face this elephant.
Finally, if you mean my comment @ Dave January 11th, 2018 at 1:59 pm:, I was harsh in asking him what does he know about Hispanics, but that ties into all his comments. This meme about Democrats importing voters, no better than that of Republicans always gerrymander to defeat minorities, ignores that Hispanics are already here, have always been here, are the largest ethnic group, and that Democrats realize that Dreamers are actually important to Hispanic Americans. If you meant my comment to Ymar Sakar, well his comment was disjointed. I am coming from four years on a very combative blog, so I’m not as civil as I was when I first commented on your blog or Bookworms. That’s not an excuse, just an explanation. If you find me too harsh now, you have every right to ban me. I have no right to comment here, it’s all by your largesse.
Ariel:
Of course I have every right to ban you or anyone else.
I don’t tend to be eager to ban people, though. I removed your offensively insulting comments on this thread, and I’m letting you know that they’re not acceptable.
Nor will I spend a lot of time engaging you on issues, particularly ones for which the answers are obvious. Just as a single example, of course DACA gives people “extra rights” they didn’t have without it, in particular the right to get a work permit. If you don’t know that, you know next to nothing about DACA—which is first and foremost a legal document, not some sort of emotional pat on the back. I’m not here to give you an education from scratch—way too time-consuming. Educate yourself.
Neo,
I have no idea what comments where so offensive that you had to remove them.
Granting work permits to people that see themselves as Americans because they came here as children, know no other country, and are culturally American isn’t an ‘extra right’. The issue about these kids is that they see themselves as only Americans, unlike their parents who came as adults from somewhere else.
You told me nothing i didn’t know about DACA. You did tell me about yourself.
I have no more reason to waste my time with you than you with me.
Sorry, I hit the button too soon.
Please ban me. I mean that with all sincerity, the very dictionary definition of the word. It’ll save both of us a lot of time, and I mean that with all civility. I made a mistake coming back here, your blog is not for me. Nothing more needs to be said.
So, please, ban me.
Ariel:
“Offensive” in the sense of breaking the rules against infighting (personal insults) in the comments, not “offensive” in the sense of being vile or salacious or obscene. In a previous comment, I posted a link for you to the rules on the blog about infighting. Long ago I found that I needed to be pretty strict about those rules or the entire comments section would quickly become one big poo-flinging insult party, like so many blogs.
On the topic of DACA, as I wrote earlier, “rights” are not about whether a person feels a certain way. We’re talking about legal rights, which have nothing to do with feelings. Do you think that if a person who came here illegally as a child and therefore does not have the legal right to work (or to stay in the country) is then granted that right, that somehow that doesn’t count as a newly-granted right because of how the person felt before? Or because you felt he actually should have had that right before? One can be highly sympathetic to the plight of Dreamers and believe wholeheartedly that they should be granted various rights, including even citizenship, without coming to the odd conclusion that Dreamers already had those rights because of feelings.
I have no idea what this “please ban me” thing is about. I will ban you if you cross the line, but you haven’t crossed it. If you want to leave you’re free to leave, of course, or to come and go. It sounds like you feel you need an intervention or something in order to stay away?
Blogs can have certain addictive qualities (or Twitter, or Facebook, or lots of other things online), and they can eat up a lot of time. I certainly often feel I spend too much time here. Sometimes I spend it arguing with people with whom I’m at loggerheads. It can be frustrating—as though the people on each side speak different languages. Nevertheless I believe it often has value, although it sometimes can come to take too much time from other, more pleasant (or necessary) things in life.