Terrorist attack in Berlin: nine dead so far
A truck plowed into a crowd of Christmas shoppers, killing 9 and injuring 50. This is the new pattern of low-tech terror attacks: knives or vehicles, weapons found easily by almost anyone:
A man was arrested on suspicion of being the driver of the truck. Police said and were investigating whether he was the same man earlier seen fleeing from the scene of the attack on foot.
There were unconfirmed reports the arrested man was Chechen.
A suspected passenger found dead inside in the lorry was reportedly Polish. It is believed he may have been the original driver of the truck, which came from Poland and is thought to have been hijacked.
If that report is correct, it seems likely that the hijacker of the truck killed the original driver.
It followed warnings that Isil terrorists may target Christmas markets in Europe.
Witnesses of the Berlin attack described scenes of panic and horror as a lorry veered off the street and ploughed into the crowded Christmas market just off the famous shopping street of Kurfé¼rstendamm at around 8pm local time (7pm GMT).
The fact that it was a location described as a “Christmas market” is almost certainly purposeful and anti-Christian.
Horrific.
It’s beginning to look like a Muslim hijacked the truck and murdered its driver… then he drove on to murder more kafir.
German authorities reportedly had an alert out for just such an attack by a jihadi.
blert,
Everyone should be alert, 24/7. These savage, mission from allah and the prophet damned be his name fanatics are relentless. We have to be relentless in response. Its personal, and we need to take it personnaly. I am waiting for a POTUS or PM to declare we are engaged in a war between the West and islam. Until that happens the West will always be vulnerable to assault trucks.
The death toll would be lower if some in that crowd had been carrying firearms. Though that alone would not have stopped the attack, it’s a necessary first step.
To stop attacks, the jihadist must know that many of those concealed carry holders are using hollow point ammo encapsulating dried pigs blood. That would have deterred that attack.
Since by their own dogma, an unclean Muslim cannot enter paradise and the primary reward for a suicide attack is the promise of paradise, the prospect of being prevented from entering paradise is an effective deterrent to recruitment.
Nor can that dogma be changed, since Allah himself has declared it in the Qur’an. And, since fallible mankind cannot ‘correct’ infallible Allah… to change the Qur’an is to implicitly declare that Muhammad was either a liar or deluded, which of course would collapse Islam’s theological foundations.
Geoffrey:
Excuse me,but it isn’t easy to stop a moving vehicle with a hand gun. And I think firearms aren’t easy to get in Germany, or Chicago, or Washington DC, or NYC. Just sayin.
I know that it is pathetically naive, but I will say it anyway. If Muslims in the “free world” want to be taken seriously; if they want to continue to enjoy the liberties available in these societies, they must police themselves. By that I mean take charge of what is preached in their Mosques and taught in the Madrassas. They must be as alert as public security forces to identify the radicals within their populations, and cooperate with authorities when they do.
I think that Europe has been remarkably patient; but, I cannot imagine that this patience will continue indefinitely. I don’t believe that Americans will quietly wait for the slaughter to escalate here. Some may call it a backlash; but, self (and societal) preservation is a human characteristic.
Civilized people must grieve for those innocents struck down as they peacefully go about their lives.
OM,
True, a handgun is hardly ideal. And the difficulty is carrying firearms is many countries and cities is part of the problem. Predators look for easy prey, they do not attack those that can fight back. An unarmed population is a ‘target rich’ environment.
My goal is cumulative, it changes the risk/reward equation when jihadists know that paradise is not certain. A devout Muslim soul, barred from paradise is adrift without hope.
Oldflyer,
As others have said better than I, there are millions of Muslims who do not support the terrorist killing, but there are also millions–literally millions–who are supportive of the terrorists. And, of course, my understanding of islam is that central tenets are that secular power is subservient to religious power and non-muslims must convert to islam, under threat of force, if necessary.
I don’t know what we can do about this, but I do know that acting as if the terrorists are exceptions of infinitely small numbers is just fantasy. Unfortunately, there are plenty of non-muslims who want to deny this condition or not speak of it, and they are always ready to virtuously smear as a bigot anyone who does.
That said, I don’t know how we can hold peaceful, not terrorist-supporting muslims as more obligated to act against the killers than others. As a southerner, am I more obligated to be more vigilant for murderers like Dylan Roof than other Americans? I agree though that it is in my interest to be just that.
OM.
The point is not to shatter the engine block with your pistol but to kill the driver.
And that the locals can’t carry is the reason for lack of weapons with which to fight back.
There’s another reason and that is PC. Some of the folks, including grownups, at Ohio State think the stabby guy is the victim, along with the Somali community. So taking steps is going to be swimming upstream, socially and legally speaking.
Richard S:
Good luck with that, using a hand gun. Shatter the engine block? What world are you thinking of? With a hand gun 1) first you have to hit the driver, then 2) of course kill him and kill him quickly (head shot). Better than nothing I suppose, better luck with at a rifle. But it sounded good, “if only they were all armed.. if only ……”
6 357s or 44 magnums through the windshield or the driver’s door will stop the vehicle, lessening the death and injury totals. No need to put pork in a hollow point, just put a strip of bacon in the mouth before burning the body and placing the ashes in a pig sty. Harsh measures are required. Total, unconditional warfare is required. No quarter, no mercy, no remorse.
Geoffrey;
You seem to forget that imams have fatwas and many outs for the jihadist that want to kill the kuffar (infidel).
Parker:
F=MA. Six .367 or 6 .44 aren’t going to stop a moving vehicle. The driver may not really care if you kill him. You may lessen the casualty count, but let’s get real. Or not.
.357 not .367
How long before Islam as a whole is outlawed?
It’ll probably never happen, but it should.
OM,
I have nothing against free people carrying rifles openly in public places, but snowflakes would melt and politicos left or right would never allow that in most of the West. So handguns it is, at least in the USA. A magnum caliber round in a handgun is much more devastating than you might imagine. Its not like hollyweird where rifle and handgun rounds bounce off vehicles.
Google 357 magnum 180 grain soft points or 44 magnum 240 grain flat points. And there are more even powerful handgun calibers. Calibers with correct shot placement will drop an elephant in a faction of a second.
Kind hint, never speak about what you do not know.
OM,
“Let’s get real, or not”???
Ok, you know less than zero about firearms and ammunition, or about we 4 plus million American shooters, reloaders, and hardcore 2nd supporters. Last time I looked we are still above 3% and 3% is all it takes.
In a perfect world one shot stops work every time.
Ignore physics and momentum of an automobile or truck or whatever.
But call me ignorant, the math doesn’t lie. Whatever.
BTW the comment wasn’t about handgun or rifle carry, or American shooters, focus. Unless you kill the driver quickly before he points the truck (vehicle) into the crowd you are probably out of luck. I have no problem what so ever with the First Amendment, but it isn’t magic.
OM,
I do not live in “a perfect world”. But I do live in a reality where if three out of 100 people are armed on main street it would make a difference. You might wish to believe otherwise, but you are wishing and hoping and praying. I do not wish, hope, or pray. I am locked and loaded 24/7. And I do not recognize I need a stinking permit. I have a permit because I am a native born son of America, I breathe the atmosphere, and I piss water.
So take your might be, could not be, would never be, yadda, yadda; and have some English disarmerd tea with milk and sugar. Sorry to be harsh, but, well, you opened the barn door.
Currently being aboard a boat on the Rhine visiting the German Christmas Markets (we are currently in Mainz) I do look forward to breakfast.
OM, Parker
This is the reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATbn96P5i-E
Look how fast this happens. This is from the front of the Paris attack.
Just the fact that you have to suddenly realize what’s happening before you can even began to act is going to make you slower. Plus you’re in the middle of a whole bunch of people.
I’m not trying to discourage anyone from trying to shoot with their gun, but it’s a really difficult situation no matter what you do.
Sadly, I don’t think people facing away, even had a realization they needed to run. That’s how fast it happened.
I just finished reading Pulitzer Prize-winning Joby Warrick’s “Black Flags: the Rise of Isis,” which takes us from Zarqawi to Abu Bakr al-Bagdadi — a direct line of descent. I highly recommend the book, which illustrates one and then two and then… possible turning points where Obama chose inaction despite the advice of almost every single security advisor. Including, perhaps surprisingly, Hillary Clinton. These turning points opened the door for ISIS (as did Maliki’s anti-Sunni actions in Iraq).
Even the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia has condemned the horror movie tactics used by ISIS, but many young Arab males seem viscerally drawn to this “Texas Chainsaw Massacre” aspect of the “Islamic State.” Videos of the Jordanian pilot who was burned alive… excite some as much as did Zarqawi’s beheading of Nick Berg in 2004.
Rule No 1. If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging! Your man Trump had the right idea, stop importing Muslims till you get a grip on the problem.
Geoffrey, I’ll be sure to carry my handgun when I’m out driving alone on the highway as well. Then if a drunk driver tries to plow into me I will simply shoot him off the road and all will be well–why hasn’t anyone thought of this before?
It should work for deer collisions as well. Avoid a potentially deadly car crash AND get myself a venison dinner: it’s two birds with one stone!
Clay, we are all safer when people like Geoffrey carry.
The latest news from Berlin: they DON’T have the perp in custody.
And the body count is up to twelve.
Islam is wholly incompatible with the West.
Like the Spanish, we’re going to have to eject Muslims back to their home lands.
This is the ONLY viable solution that will stop the jihad.
Here is WHY such terror attacks will NEVER stop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6ePVxRLDM0
parker:
Disagree with your scenario about stopping a mass murderer in an automobile using an handgun and I become a gun control denier of reality. Get a grip man.
Folks also seem to forget incidents in Las Vegas and in southern Caliornia where a mass murderer with a vehicle decided to kill a bunch of pedestrians, this preceded ISI and weren’t done by ISIS maniacs.
Also at Ohio state you will recall that the murderer was shot and killed after the vehicle was stopped, repeat, after the vehicle was stopped. The policeman didn’t stop him and the vehicle with his handgun. Facts and reality matter, even when you piss piss.
I can’t believe that one can just buy a motor vehicle, of whatever size one wishes, and plow into innocent pedestrians with it. For God’s sake, close the classified ads loophole!!!!
Surellin, the jihadi hyjacked the truck and murdered its driver.
OM. Missed again. I said you don’t—-get that, DON’T–shatter the engine block with your pistol. You try to kill the driver.
It appears the Nice driver swerved back and forth in order to get the people who were dodging his previous direction. A truck with a dead driver will go straight or take up a curve which won’t vary until he hits something solid. In either case, dodging is easier and he’ll stop sooner than–duh–if he had not been killed.
Richard A:
Why you brought up, shattering the engine block is a mystery to me. Some seem to assume that it would be easy to hit and quickly kill a person driving a vehicle with a hand gun, because that is what we agree you would have to do. Who missed again? DUH.
He is clearly saying that if more citizens who were pre-screened carried guns, that the overall death toll from these random attacks would be less. Its not about shooting an engine block to stop a multi-ton truck. Be real.
But both of you have a point. You cant stop a 757 with a handgun either. Vehicles make excellent weapons. The only solution is to stop the people who could whack a bus driver and drive the bus into a crowd. That requires you to limit who you let into your country. At this point its just comon sense. In this day and age, free movement across borders must stop.
We can argue and fuss about it and more will die over the years, but eventually we will get there. But if you wait to long people will begin to take the law into their own hands, which we saw immediately after this truck thing where someone attacked a mosque. Do you really want to see what that will look like once militias form, organize and plan?
I am a Christian and I am telling you, these countries better wake up before their Christian minorities do. There is only so much murder and abuse any subgroup can take. And it could get very ugly real fast if the people lose faith in their governments to protect them. Do you want to see mass murderers walk because no jury will convict them?
The war is declared. Mobilization of the West against islamists is urgently needed. Liberals could not stand against jihad, only equally belligerent and equally fanatical Puritans have a chance. And such movement is already brewing among Evangelicals, Tea Party in USA and populist anti-immigration parties in Europe. The Crusades already began, too, with American intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq and Russian intervention in Syria. In years to come all Middle East and Northern Africa will become a theater of war between Crusaders and Jihadists, even against Western will and evasion to call spade a spade. The collapse of PC regime will unleash forces which no Western government can possibly control.
Jim Do:
Armed citizens good. No argument. Armed citizens being effective in the situation in Berlin, probably not. It wasn’t a bus. An armed citizen wasn’t in the picture at OSU. But those Dead Eye Dicks tell me a elephant is s a semi or a delivery truck.
And shooting out tires is apparently not an option, despite the movies.
Police has special bullets to stop car engine running. But they need a special guns to fire them, too. That means that at every event when big crowds are expected the police need to deploy such special forces with such special weapons.
I am not suggesting concealed carry as a magic panacea. I am suggesting that it will reduce deaths from terrorist attacks. But until we address the root issues* that enable terrorism, we will continue to be attacked and, the death toll will escalate.
* energy dependence, legal immigration of Muslims, a refusal to identify Islam as the source of Islamic terrorism, changing the risk/reward ratio and holding Islam itself accountable.
blert,
Great link.
The 357 Magnum was invented for the specific purpose of penetrating automobiles. Be that as it may, European police are not going to start carrying them any time soon — too scary. One thing they could do, however, is patrol with dogs. As a general rule, Muslims hate dogs, and patrolling the cities with gun- and bomb-sniffing dogs might have the effect of inhibiting at least some jihadis.
I know there are big heavy barriers for vehicles, but I think some engineers could probably design something lighter and effective. I am thinking a barrier that no matter what side you hit it, part of it folds or collapses leaving only one tire to hit, causing the vehicle to flip on its side on impact.
At least that would stop the vehicle from further movement forward and limit the amount of carnage.
Playing defense is a losing strategy. Western societies are too open for that, and there will just be more attacks.
Deutsche Welle talked with “terrorism expert Rolf Tophoven” about the attack and here’s some of what he had to say:
I’d like to know if the German public’s reaction jibes with this.
Matt_SE Says:
December 20th, 2016 at 4:38 pm
Playing defense is a losing strategy. Western societies are too open for that, and there will just be more attacks.
Only playing defense would be. Nothing wrong with trying to have a more effective one.
Ann:
That quote seems off base to me. I’m not familiar with the layout of these Christmas markets (never even heard of them before yesterday), but lots of farmer’s markets in this area, and street fairs, involve temporarily sealing streets and blocking all but pedestrian traffic, with various kinds of barricades to vehicular traffic. I’m not at all sure why he thinks that could not or should not be done.
I know, Neo, that didn’t sound right to me either. The WSJ has just published a piece talking about what kind of security measures were in place before yesterday — Germany’s Cherished Christmas Markets Reexamine Security After Truck Attack; some excerpts:
I find that all amazing. Denial runs very, very deep, it seems.
You would think that with the incident in France this past July there,would be barricades to vehicular traffic, these can be made attractive by loading with sand and stuffing a Christmas tree in to it. Europe is so slow on the uptake really, guess the topic of self preservation hasn’t told come up yet at the EU meetings where it has for the size of bananas maximum wattage a toaster may have and precluding horse meat for sale as food if the animal has all ready been a pet.
I am not saying it is easy with a magnum handgun round to stop a jihadist in an assault vehicle. What I am saying is it is possible. And, it is better than sprinkling the assault vehicle with rose petals as it plows through the meat puppets. %#@$¥£â‚¬. It is far better to resist, no matter how weak the response, than do nothing beyond submit to the slaughter.
Parker:
http://weaponsman.com/?p=37692
Where carrying would have made a difference. Burlington Mall (WA) murders 2016.