Taxes: ironic, isn’t it…
…that Hillary’s release of her tax returns makes her look like an honest and transparent candidate when compared to the extreme reluctance of opponent Donald Trump to release his.
Now, you could say that she’s neither honest nor transparent, and if you were to say that you would be correct.
You could say that the issue of tax returns is a minor one compared to the far larger issues on which Hillary Clinton has been secretive and dishonest, and if you were to say that you would be correct.
You could say anything you want about it. But campaigns deal with that thing cynically called “optics,” and the optics on this are terrible.
It also is a problem that is what Rumsfeld would have called a “known known.” That is, way back during the primary season we learned that Trump was extremely unlikely to be releasing his tax returns if he became the nominee, and that Hillary Clinton would be releasing hers, and that it would make her look better than Trump in several respects.
You could say that nobody cares about this stuff, but if you were to say that you’d be incorrect. I don’t know how many people care or how much they care, and if all else was well with Trump this particular detail wouldn’t matter all that much. But all else is not well with Trump—in fact, at the moment little is well with Trump—and this is an easy-peasy way for Hillary Clinton to drive a “narrative” (another word of which I’m not fond except in the sarcastic sense) of her own relative honesty.
Which leaves us with the question of why? Why does Trump continue to refuse to release his returns, or at least some of them? It makes it look as though he has a great deal to hide, either because he pays so little income tax, or because his income is actually much lower than he’s always claimed, or because his charitable contributions are minuscule for someone of his wealth, or because of some combination of those things. My theory has long been that it’s about the size of his income (Trump is rather obsessed with size), because that goes to the heart of the narrative (there’s that word again!) that he’s been driving for his entire life.
I actually don’t think Trump cares all that much whether he wins the presidency, although I do think he’d much prefer it to losing. But he’ll survive if he loses, because he will be even more famous than before and have millions and millions of adoring new cultish fans who will happily blame others for his defeat. But if we learn through his release of tax returns that his wealth (although considerable) is significantly less than he’s always claimed—now, that could hurt him much more.
[NOTE: And just about no one believes Trump’s audit excuse: see this and this.]
Interestingly (no, make that “predictably”), over 90% of the Clintons’ charitable contributions went to their own Foundation.
All bets are off on this election.
@ Fausta:
That’s an interesting way of putting it, since so many betting houses give Hillary a huge advantage over Trump. It seem like all bets are on.
Trump is already throwing out the chaff that you can’t determine his net worth from his tax returns. I’m sorry but you can make a pretty good guess. His business tax returns all will have balance sheets and Profit and loss statements. Adjustments for prior year losses, liabilities and local/overseas taxi will also be somewhat apparent. You can get pretty close estimates from that. Given his prior less than stellar deal making he will probably be wealthy but not astonishingly so as he claims. Prior year adjustments to tax liabilities like penalties etc will also show up. But much more fundamentally failure to disclose will be taken as a lack of commitment to public service. Not only from the publics right to know who they might elect, but of his willingness to sacrifice his business results to the nations welfare. Romney did this and had to face the fire. Any casual voter would look askance at this refusal.
Neo – Today’s NYT has a longish article by James Stewart, concluding that Trump hasn’t paid any federal income taxes in some recent years.
According to the authorities he cites — some named, some not — that’s relatively common in the real estate business, at that level.
(Which suggests to me that we ought to close some loopholes, but that’s another story.)
I have no special knowledge about the real estate business, but I have a generally good impression of Stewart. (His book on the killer doctor is quite good.)
My own guess at what Trump’s tax returns would show? All of the above. They would show that he hasn’t paid much in taxes, that he is much less rich than he claims, and that he doesn’t contribute to charities.
(How much less? An order of magnitude less, or more, I suspect, given how sensitive he is about the subject.)
DirtyJobsGuy:
In September of 2012, Romney released his full 2011 tax forms and summaries of the 20 years earlier. What’s more, even before that he had released 2010 and a preliminary one for 2011. No similarity to Trump.
Not only that, but Trump had encouraged Romney to release his.
I take it for granted Trump’s wealth is like most things about him — greatly exaggerated and part of his con game.
You’ve got to wonder why someone worth 5 billion or more would bother with lowball cons, and failed ones at that, like Trump Steak, Trump Vodka, Trump University etc.
A real estate tycoon’s tax returns would not necessarily show his net worth with any accuracy.
Real estate has depreciation charges on owned properties, but unless you can see the history of the depreciation you can’t infer value.
Also, real estate values go up and down with the economy. New York real estate, as I understand it, is very hot right now, so Trump’s new York properties are probably appraised at their highest level ever. He has other businesses so the income from those might show a rough idea of what they are worth. One of his biggest assets is the Trump brand. What that is worth can vary greatly and is probably one of the most difficult assets to value. IMO, his campaign is damaging his brand, but that’s another issue.
What his tax return would show is that real estate offers huge opportunities for tax write offs and depreciation charges. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump pushes the limits on such items. That’s probably one of the reasons he is audited every year. Why does the IRS audit Trump? Because that’s where the money is. It’s a like game. He probably shows minimal taxes owed, they audit him and claim he owes $1million more than claimed. He pays (probably as slowly as possible) and they’re both happy.
This game exposes the stupidity of the tax code.
Supposedly, if you are wealthy and running for office, you must pay the max tax and give a lot to charity or you’re a greedy, evil-bastard. Well, I disagree. If Trump has not broken any laws, he should pay as little as the law allows. Yeah, sue me because I think like a capitalist.
Now as to the Clinton tax return. Isn’t that just special. They “earned” north of $10 million by doing what? Neither has held a job since Hillary left the Rose law firm. Who pays them this kind of money and for what? Oh yeah, it’s for giving speeches and sitting on boards. Are they selling their influence and connections to governments? You bet your sweet bippy they are. Now, if they were working within the law and had the USA’s best interests at heart, I would have no objections. But they are internationalist, one-worlders who don’t hesitate to sell out the interests of the USA. Working a deal to sell 25% of the U.S. uranium deposits to a Russian company that resulted in big speaking fees and donations to the Clinton Foundation. That’s just one item. Read “Clinton Cash” for others.
Color me not impressed by this kerfuffle. But I freely admit that I’m not your typical voter.
Tactically, he should hire some not-quite-up-to-accounting-standards firm to produce a thick and completely incoherent statement of finances, then insist he disclosed more than any other candidate in history. Do the Clinton move – “are you bringing this up again?”.
Neo – if Trump were my client, I would not let him release his auditable returns (2012-2014). Suppose (not suppose, it’s a virtual certainty that they will) the IRS makes an adjustment? The press would go even more bananas than they already are.
DirtyJobsGuy – you are wrong and J.J. is right. Trump’s individual return would show very little, and, as far as I know, no one has suggested he release his business tax returns, and I don’t think he will. Just click on over to the Federal Election Commission website and take a look at his financial statements, which are there for all to see, There are literally hundreds of partnerships and LLCs.
On his individual tax return, all you would see is hundreds and hundreds of pages of Schedule E’s, which only show taxable income, of which there will, net, be almost none.
You’d get wages, fees, interest and dividends, and taxes and maybe stock sales. He has a portfolio of securities, but it’s not a major part of his cash flow. I suspect there would be little (relatively) on his Schedules B and D.
You don’t need to have taxable income from real estate to make money from it, and I’m sure that’s what Trump does.
He may be the most charitable human being in the world, but you wouldn’t see that on his return, If, as I suspect, he has little or no taxable income, he would get no charitable deduction, so his contributions wouldn’t be on Schedule A. (As a matter of fact, right now (well, just before I started posting) I’m trying to figure out haw to get a charitable deduction for a very wealthy real estate guy who has no taxable income.)
So if it’s all that fascinating to you, just go over to the FEC website and start analyzing his financials. Or, if you don’t want to spend the time, just google “analyzing Trump’s financial statements,” and you’ll find a number of good analyses.
And what will you find out when you’ve done that? He’s a very rich real estate guy. For that you needed to see his tax returns?
Richard Saunders:
It has nothing to do with what I think. I think I made that clear.
It’s about how it looks to the people Trump has to win over in order to be elected, and how that compares to what Hillary Clinton did and how that looks.
I could link to person after person after person in the tax field who says there’s no problem for him to release his tax returns. It’s irrelevant, because it’s not about whether he’s right or wrong. It’s about politics.
He has never even released something official from the IRS saying he’s being audited, so even that has come into question (see this).
It becomes more and more lamentable that the other nominee is Hillary.
Trump is a con man. It’s a given and has been belabored to death here. So the question of his refusal to release his tax returns means that he is probably broke. Trump has already indicated that a sizable part of his net worth is his name and anything he attaches it to. Carl Icahn and Sheldon Adelson have bought a two-bit front man to run for president. Want to bet?
Humpty Trumpty promised a wall
Humpty Trumpty’s polls did appall
All the Fox talkers
And Hannity, friend
Couldn’t keep Trumpty
From failing again
not my day job.
Interesting that as Brian notes over 90% of the charitable contributions went to the Clinton Foundation aka Bill and Hillary and it gets barely a glimpse.
Trump’s 1040s would fully expose him as a tool of the Russians, doing business with Moscow underworld, etc
imho
I agree with the point that Trump doesn’t care that much if he loses, but would prefer to win. If we start with the knowledge that the purpose of the media “coverage” in all of this is to exploit any error that would make Trump look bad and cover up or play down anything that would make Hillary look bad – why would Trump who is portrayed by his loyalists as the shrewdest and most astute player at the table continually say stuff that creates negative coverage instead of staying on message about jobs, the economy, illegal immigration and America’s decline? Could it be that the thrill of being the guy who ran a great campaign – “it was really great!” – against the crooked Hillary and continue as a seventy-year old man who gets to act the perpetual adolescent is the thing Donald cares about? Continuing the errors seems to me to be a sure fire way of not getting the uninformed/undecided voters that he will need on his side.
By this time, I suspect, there aren’t many voters left to be persuaded, especially about something like tax returns.
Some years ago, Trump came out in favor of taxing wealth. Ordinarily, we tax money when it moves, except for property taxes. Income, sales, cap gains, estate….
Taxing wealth is a UK thing.
So why did Trump favor it? Possibly because he wanted to hear himself talk, possibly to get some ink knowing it was going noplace.
And possibly because he wasn’t “rich”. If you own a billion-dollar property and owe $950 mill on it, you’re not a billionaire. You might even owe the whole enchilada. But if you can finesse the cash flow so you’re getting along pretty well on top of the debt service, you look “rich” while being nearly bankrupt–figuratively speaking. So the speculation was that Trump didn’t own a lot of money but did have fat cash flow on top of his debt service.
Thus, he wouldn’t mind the really “rich” getting taxed on their stuff, as opposed to money in motion.
I took a basic real estate tax class years ago. There are some odd things going on there. One example is you put up an office building in the right tax environment and you make money before you lease a single square foot. So the instructors said was possible. Even if they were exaggerating, it seems likely that you could break even before you got the place half full, and it would be due in large part to tax issues.
I hate to think of how low I would sink to vote for an opponent of Hillary. Haven’t gotten there yet.
Richard Aubrey,
According to polls, there are still a great many voters left unpersuaded. At any rate, there are a great many undecideds. Perhaps that means they have decided they will vote for neither candidate, and are waiting for another to show up? Or perhaps they just are undecided between Hillary and Trump, or undecided as to whether they will bother to vote at all, with such a duo on the ballot.
Yes, this is all about ‘optics’. If Trump’s tax returns were a positive, they’d have already been released. So, he’s in a no win situation, damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.
The irony is that the American people are being sold the fiction that electing a con man is worse than electing what mounts to a fifth columnist.
The tragedy is having to choose one or the other. There’s zero chance that this will end well, even if Trump were to perform well. The rot at all levels is far too deep and getting progressively worse.
That should be “amounts”.
Actually, we do know a lot about Trump’s charitable giving.
The Washington Post investigated, using a list provided by the Trump organization.
There were, as I recall, more than 200 “gifts”. Many were not gifts in the usual sense, but promotions, like a free round of golf.
How many involved actual money out of Trumps’s personal pocket? One. (I can’t help thinking, given the record, that one was a mistake, that Trump or one of his employees took the money from the wrong account.)
I have the summary article bookmarked somewhere, and will try to put up a link to it, today or tomorrow,
I will leave it to those with more expertise to discuss what the details of tax returns might reveal for someone like Trump. I agree with those who think that more than likely he is more concerned about potential damage to his brand than he is with any political fall out.
Any answers to questions of his motives and thought processes are really obscure. Despite the media bias, which is real of course, he just does not seem interested in the hard work and attention to detail required to organize a winning campaign. There must be some really interesting psychology at work.
What I am wondering is why “bad optics” for Trump are worthy of note and a cause of concern, but Hillary’s keeping her medical records quiet is, apparently, tolerable. See this:
http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/08/12/hillary-clinton-has-parkinsons-disease-physician-confirms/
To be specific; what is the worst thing we might find in the tax returns versus what is the worst thing we might find in her medical records? The suggestion that she might be avoiding press conferences because of the risk of triggering a seizure is new (to me).
It is unfortunate that one’s medical condition limits one’s career, but we are talking about the safety and proper governance of a nation here, aren’t we?
Of course, if she debates Trump without incident, that would probably refute these charges.* There is the 11 hours of testimony – where one could argue that she avoided a meltdown*. Still…
*Perhaps a heavy dose of something that can only be used sparingly would get her through this.
notherbob2:
Bad optics for Trump are a cause of concern here because we actually would like Trump to be a better candidate and do a better job of defeating Hillary, and be a better and more honest and trustworthy person as well.
Hillary is obviously going to lie; people seem to expect it of her and her voters don’t much care. So her optics seem not to matter much to her support. It was Trump’s task to be better and convince people he’s trustworthy, and he’s failed to do that.
notherbob2: “It is unfortunate that one’s medical condition limits one’s career, but we are talking about the safety and proper governance of a nation here, aren’t we?”
I’m convinced that Hillary is the front person for the real power behind the progressive movement. If she is ill, it doesn’t matter because she will not really be in charge. Soros, Podesta, and the like will make policy. If Hillary is ill, Bill will function much like Edith Wilson during Wilson’s Presidency. Why would the progressives support an old, ill, unpopular, incompetent woman with a ton of baggage unless they knew exactly what was in the future? Am I too conspiracy minded? Maybe so.
Releasing tax returns is a stupid practice from my observation of politics for more than 45 years. The practice should stop. If you have concern that a candidate paid their taxes (any candidate from dog catcher to president) then pass legislation to have the IRS issue a certificate of good standing signifying that the addressee is paid and current with tax year(s).
What is to be gained from tax returns anyway?
Hillary released her returns and gather heaps of praise over a 10% charitable rate in the news media. No real examination of how two public servants can “earn” tens of millions each year nor the sources of those payments.
If Trump said he would release his returns then he should honor his word. I hope a candidate in the future declines to release and encourages other candidates to bring this stupid practice to an end. I wonder how many potential candidates avoided entering the race because they were raised as I was raised – it’s none of your damned business.
For me, having watched her for decades, Hillary Clinton is a solved problem. And I think many others feel the same way.
In contrast, I see Donald Trump as a half-solved problem. We know that he is a liar on a grand scale, but we often don’t know the truth behind those lies.
For instance, what is his relationship, if any, with Putin? Trump has told different, contradictory stories about it. Perhaps Trump just has a man crush on Putin, perhaps Putin’s allies have lent Trump large sums of money.
Those unsolved parts of Trump are why I want to see more records, not only his individual tax returns, but records from his companies — and why I write about Trump more often than Clinton.
(For the record: Although there is much that is still mysterious about Trump, we know enough to see that both Trump and Clinton belong in prison, not the White House.)
Jim Miller:
I agree with you, except I wouldn’t call her a solved problem, but rather an understood problem. She sure isn’t “solved.”
Trump is a somewhat mysterious, only-partly-understood problem. We are still puzzling him out. That’s why I write about him so much. If we are to decide what he is and what he’s capable of, and why or why not to support him, we have to understand him.
Before officers in our Navy and Air Force become custodians of nuclear weapons, they are required to reveal a lot more than just their tax returns.
Neo – Fair enough. I tend to use “solved” as you would for an arithmetic problem; if you can put a correct answer down on paper, you’ve “solved” the problem.
But I think most people are more likely to use it your way, so I should have been clearer.
News flash.
It’s COMMON for real estate moguls to not have the numbers ready for their 1040 until as late as September — for the year preceding.
This is because the tax treatment of this and that underlying asset gets pounded around — a LOT.
So it’s nothing for a fellow like Trump to not have forms K and K-1 in hand until late August.
This gets even worse with the Fortune 500. Lost on the general public, it’s actually common for such firms to have their income tax filings stretched into the following year.
This does not mean that such entities are given any grace in terms of paying taxes. That cash had better be in the Federal till — tout suite — from the very first.
The term ‘audit’ that Trump used is consistent with the IRS second guessing virtually every significant transaction in his empire. There’d be nothing special about that, nothing at all.
At his scale, he’s audited — continuously — as are the Fortune 1000. The IRS sets up offices inside their HQs — that they must pay for — and those agents never conduct any other business. The one firm becomes a tax career.
Such details are all news to the average Joe.
“Trump’s individual return would show very little… Just click on over to the Federal Election Commission website and take a look at his financial statements, which are there for all to see…
On his individual tax return, all you would see is hundreds and hundreds of pages of Schedule E’s, which only show taxable income, of which there will, net, be almost none. “ – Richard S
Your argument makes trump’s decision to hold back even more baffling.
There is too big a perception he is hiding something to be worth holding back, if what you say is accurate. You bet that the MSM and Dems will play that up as best they can.
As a “strategist” trump leaves a lot to be desired, if this is anything to go by.
BTW, you may know the ins and outs of the FEC website, but having been there, it doesn’t seem obvious where to find that data… I can find all kinds of info on campaign revenue and expenditures under trump’s name or campaign code (C00580100), but not much else.
Kindly provide a link as a courtesy.
“So it’s nothing for a fellow like Trump to not have forms K and K-1 in hand until late August. “ – blert
Maybe true for the current year. Shouldn’t hold back releasing prior years.
“Those unsolved parts of Trump are why I want to see more records, not only his individual tax returns, but records from his companies – and why I write about Trump more often than Clinton.” – Jim M
THIS^^^^ Is why I seriously challenge the pro trump discussion around here.
I WANT a good, solid alternative to clinton, but so far haven’t seen much positive, and a lot of downside (actual and much worse potential) wrt trump – to the point he’s become profoundly “unacceptable” and, thus, has a huge hurdle to overcome to credibly convince me that he is a whole lot better than my current assessment.
Most of those challenges have been responded to with essentially “not clinton”, or bromides kindred to “he fights” or “he tells the truth”.
At this point, that does nothing to address the issues / concerns with trump, and that is the battleground on which marginal voters will swing.
@Todd @ 2:35pm: Here, here!!
Reminds me of other Leftist trojan horses like Hussein, who also had things to hide because they didn’t release them.
“What is to be gained from tax returns anyway?
Hillary released her returns and gather heaps of praise over a 10% charitable rate in the news media. No real examination of how two public servants can “earn” tens of millions each year nor the sources of those payments.” – Todd
Dude, it is called “transparency”!
The same argument could be said of SEC and Stock Exchange submissions. Why not have the SEC or SE certify the information is in good standing? Why publish corporate financial statements – we could have a designated CPA certify them and leave it at that?
Candidates ask us to entrust them with power, and, imperfect as it is, it is one source that helps voters to understand “a candidate’s representations regarding charities, priorities, wealth, tax conformance, and conflicts of interest” – Romney
Evidently, we did learn that clinton family earns “tens of millions” – how else would we know for sure? Word of mouth and rumors?
trump brags about how much he gives to charities… would be a way for him to showcase how generous he is.
Given the long line of volunteering of this information, not doing so makes one look like they are hiding something.
http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/Web/PresidentialTaxReturns
Arguing that there is effectively “no there, there” will not hold water with the public, especially when the candidates are as controversial as these ones are.
Big Maq — try https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2175187/trump.pdf
I’d also suggest https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2175187/trump.pdf
and
http://fortune.com/2016/05/23/doland-trump-net-worth/
for analysis. Go to it!
The reason Trump doesn’t want to release his past returns is, I’m sure, that he makes a shitload of money and pays very little in taxes.
My advice would be to turn that into an advantage. He should release the out-of-statute returns (2011 and earlier) and say, “Look how much money I made and how little taxes I paid. Of course, I have an army of tax lawyers and accountants to make sure I pay as little as possible. And that’s what’s wrong with our tax system. Anybody should be able to pay as little taxes as possible without having an army of tax lawyers and accountants. And that’s why you should elect me, because my tax plan will do just that!”
But he hasn’t taken my advice yet (or anyone else’s), so I doubt he will now.
Richard Saunders, would it really surprise you to learn that the reason Trump is refusing to release tax returns is that he and his accountants have been systematically covering up and manipulating his finances? That the IRS is taking so much time in auditing him smells to high heaven. With gigantic, huge, humongous, stated assets (all or mostly paper) they probably are having a hard time reconciling the loses he is claiming to the size of the reported remaining assets. Remember Enron?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron
The Other Chuck — I’ve been a tax lawyer for almost 40 years. I’ve dealt with many real estate guys. I have a very good idea of what his tax returns are like. You may call it “systematically covering up and manipulating his finances,” I call it good tax advice and planning.
Trump is audited every year. It’s a continuous process. So as soon as they finish one year, they start on the next. With hundreds of partnerships, LLOCs, licensing fees, merchandising fees, stock transactions, and more, you’re damn right auditing him takes a long time. What do you think, he does his return on TurboTax?
(Incidently, I’ve handled audits where less than $25,000 was in question, that have gone on for years.)
And for all those audits, as far as my tax database can determine, he’s never even had one case go to Tax Court or any other court — let alone be accused of tax evasion, which is what you’re implying.
For your general knowledge, “tax evasion” is not paying a tax believed to be due, “tax avoidance” is paying the minimum amount of tax due under the law. As Judge Learned Hand put it, “Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes.”
You may not like it, but that is the law.
So, in short, Chuck, as a tax lawyer, you make a great blog commenter.
…he’s never even had one case go to Tax Court or any other court – let alone be accused of tax evasion,
Then why won’t he release his returns? What is he hiding from the voters? If he says he’s worth x billions, and the public finds out otherwise, he’s got more than a little problem. The point of the reference to Enron is precisely that they were hiding loses in off shore LLCs and partnerships. Is it an IRS problem if he over pays his taxes on stated income that doesn’t exist? Since Trump is not a publicly held corporation like Enron there is no SEC involvement.
And yes, I think Trump is a consummate scam artist.
@Richard – thanks for the links (two of them, as one is a duplicate). It is a good starting point. Only one quibble with them and that is the provenance of the first pdf file – looks legit though to my non-expert eye in FEC documents.
There are so many “loop holes” available to people like trump (after all, he’s not paying people merely for the pleasure of attending his wedding), so his taxes are no doubt complex.
I don’t begrudge him or anyone else of minimizing their taxes – legally. It is the IRS’ job to make such an assessment.
But, that is entirely separate from releasing tax returns to public scrutiny given his desire to hold the highest office.
If what you describe is accurate re: the audit process, then there really isn’t much stopping him from releasing returns covering 2014 calendar year and earlier.
As you suggest, 2011 and earlier ought to be an interesting starter, and would come across as a sign of good faith on releasing the rest.
If he was honest with his taxes, he shouldn’t have anything to hide.
He could even spin “zero” taxes as an example of how he knows how the rich (ab)use the system and rig it for their own purposes in collusion with “bought” politicians. Might be a diversion and dishonest, but that would be tame for him compared to the whoppers he’s been spewing.
The Other Chuck — For two reasons — #2, you wouldn’t understand them if you had them in front of you. You keep saying you want to know if he’s worth billions? I’ve tried to explain this to you without success. I’ll give it one more go, then I’m giving up. TAX RETURNS ONLY PERIPHERALLY REVEAL ANYTHING ABOUT ASSETS. if you want to know about Trump’s assets, look at his FINANICAL STATEMENTS, which I gave links to.
And #1, because it’s none of your damn business, that’s why! It’s ironic, isn’t it — it’s a federal crime for an IRS employee to release someone’s tax return, but it’s “mandatory” that a candidate release his. Hmmmm. . .
Big Maq — Because, as you and The Other Chuck have demonstrated, the average person doesn’t know a damn thing about taxes. At Trump’s level, there are a thousand items on which his accountants and lawyers could differ with the IRS. Suppose the IRS hits him with a billion dollar assessment. Hillary and the Dems go nuts. Five years later. the case is settled with a payment of $10,000. That happens all the time in big audits.
If Trump were to release his returns — and, as I said earlier in the comments, if I were his lawyer I’d advise him not to — he should do it at the last possible minute to deny the Evil Empress the opportunity to make hay out of them.
Richard Saunders, I do not like the “you wouldn’t understand them if you had them in front of you” comment, especially coming from a tax attorney. I’ve been in business close to 40 years, filed partnership returns which I did myself for a number of years, and understand a bit of the intricacies of the IRS code. I’ll grant that’s it’s a matter of degree and that peons like me are at the bottom, but the same principles apply. You know the offsets of capital loses and gains and what those reveal about personal wealth. THAT among many other things is what Trump on the advice of attorneys such as you is loath to reveal. They would show exactly what is his real net worth, not what a financial statement full of “goodwill” and other ephemeral/ghost assets purports to show. The man can barely open his mouth without hyping his personal business success. He’s running for the highest office in the land, and want’s to keep secrets? Give me a break!
As to the “it’s not any of your damn business” remark, it most certainly is my business, and the business of every voter in the country. You would have us believe that we’re after what he does in bed and how many times. He’s such an uncouth SOB he’d probably brag about that, as if we cared. But his tax returns? Go fly a kite.
There is no longer any use in criticizing Trump and those who are supporting him. Nor are message boards like this. To each his own, and good luck.
“Big Maq – Because, as you and The Other Chuck have demonstrated, the average person doesn’t know a damn thing about taxes. At Trump’s level, there are a thousand items on which his accountants and lawyers could differ with the IRS. Suppose the IRS hits him with a billion dollar assessment.” – Richard S
Wow! You do assume a lot!
I don’t claim expertise, but know and have experience well more than you think.
Speaking of your limits / assumptions on thinking about our points… you seem to think the only issue we are arguing about is the sum total of his assets?
There are a variety of things that releasing one’s tax returns reveals… one of them is the candidate’s willingness to be transparent.
Ironic that clinton is the one who “wins” that argument.
Is it anyone’s business? Well, trump didn’t even argue that, and made that moot by having promised to release his returns at some point. But, as with everything, he seems to be backtracking on that.
As for privacy, there is level of that which is lost by seeking such a powerful office. It is part of the higher scrutiny we place on candidates.
If trump were to debate it now, rather than making a case for a privacy issue long ago (in 2012 he didn’t defend Romney, but instead offered to trade the tax returns for obama’s transcripts), it comes across as a little too convenient, too disingenuous.
It becomes clear to the voter that trump figures that the “cost” of releasing those returns are greater than the “cost” of being perceived as hiding something.