Surviving Orlando
Some days when I go to my computer to see the news I feel a strong sense of dread and weariness.
Today’s one of those days. The Orlando massacre has had the highly predictable result of exposing the fault lines in American politics—the myriad ways in which such events are hyped, sometimes distorted, and always used by each side to push certain agendas. I happen to agree far more with the agenda of the right than that of the left, but it doesn’t change the sadness and frustration I feel when I see the point we’ve come to.
Perhaps I’m bathing the past in the rosy glow of nostalgia, but I don’t remember it being that way in my youth. The disagreements were relatively mild, the sense of “we”-ness strong. Even as recently as 9/11 there was a brief return to that feeling, even though it was illusory. Since then, despite that little pause, it’s only grown worse.
So please forgive me if today I don’t go on and on about the specific issues that are being revealed moment by moment about Orlando. The gun control efforts (see this and this). The shooter’s two wives’ stories (see this and this). The back-and-forth between Trump and Obama, and Trump and Clinton (see these).
One thing I will remark on is how some of the survivors of the shooting managed to live. Many, of course, were able to escape by running away. But for the ones who were trapped in the room with the shooter, their stories are harrowing. They seem mostly to have a similar theme, which is that of surviving by playing dead.
Playing dead is a passive rather than an active tactic, but in the nightmare situation of facing a shooter and being unarmed yourself and taken completely by surprise, it can work for a few people. And even though it would seem at first as though it’s not especially heroic, it actually requires a remarkable amount of self-control and a certain form of bravery, even though it’s not the conventional type of bravery.
For example, hear this story (the part I’m talking about in particular begins at 2:34, but it’s worth listening to the whole thing as I’ve cued it up; and please ignore the fact that he’s not an expert on what sort of firearm was used):
So, he’s trying to escape but gets shot in the leg and can’t go further. Although shot, he’s playing dead, and he already must be in a lot of pain (although sometimes shock takes over and protects people from feeling all the pain they might otherwise feel). But then, when the shooter comes back, this young man decides his only chance is to not react when he’s shot again.
Contemplate that mind-set for a moment. He’s a young man in the prime of life. He thinks he’s about to die any moment. He’s surrounded by the wounded and dying who just a short while ago were his fellow-revelers. The shooter is approaching him and fires again, several times—but he doesn’t move or flinch although he’s hit, because he knows that’s the key to his possible survival:
“I had no reaction, I was just prepared to just stay there, laying down, so he won’t know that I’m alive.”
As I said, it may be a strange kind of courage, but I think it’s courage nonetheless. Perhaps a courage born of desperation, but still—how many among us could pull it off successfully? I hope we never have to find out.
Now to the question of whether it would have helped had some of the patrons been armed. Well, if this timeline is correct, there was an armed guard there who engaged the shooter, and it didn’t seem to stop him all that much, although perhaps it did slow him down:
The shooter opens fire outside Pulse nightclub, engages with an offduty uniformed police officer who was working for the nightclub when the shooting started, and then enters club. More officers arrive and exchange gunfire with the suspect, forcing him to stop shooting and retreat to one of the nightclub’s restrooms.
Do we really know what happened? The reporting is contradictory and fragmentary and often changes over time, but first impressions tend to be the ones that people retain, and they’re often wrong impressions.
However, my sense is that it would be very difficult for a patron to effectively counter the shooter in that sort of situation, even if the patron were armed. An armed patron shooting at the shooter could result in even more casualties, unless the patron is highly trained, and even then there is danger. However, I’m not against armed patrons. An armed patron also could stop the shooter from going on and on and causing even more casualties; we really don’t know because it’s all speculation and each situation is different.
One thing I think is fairly obvious is that gun-free zones encourage shooters, because only the law-abiding will comply. I have read that, in Florida, bars and clubs are gun-free zones, and I suspect that this shooter therefore would have been likely to know that. Therefore he might consider the patrons there to be the equivalent of sitting ducks.
What’s more, if somehow the shooter had been stopped from obtaining a gun (hard to do, since the black market for firearms is always available), there are plenty of lethal alternatives. Bombs, for example. A determined killer has no problem thinking of a way to massacre people, and even an armed group of patrons could do nothing about a hidden bomb.
The solutions to terrorism such as Mateen’s don’t lie in more gun control. That seems obvious to me, and yet that’s the debate we seem to be having. Nor was this about a possibly gay guy ashamed of his sexual feelings. This was about the failure of our country and our society to grapple with a huge problem that has been obvious since September 11, 2001—Islamic terrorism abroad and at home.
[NOTE: If you follow the WSJ timeline of the massacre (which you can obtain by Googling, if you don’t subscribe to the WSJ), you’ll see that there was an initial shooting (and shootout), a pause for rather lengthy negotiations with the terrorist, who said he had a bomb, and then the police stormed the place and killed the shooter, who they felt was about to resume his deadly business. It’s not at all clear how many people were killed in the first rampage and how many in the second go-round. I would suspect that some may have been accidentally killed or injured by police, but have heard no reports about that.]
[ADDENDUM I: A little more information on the order of events can be found in this report. By the time the shooter was engaged in the phone conversation, there had actually been a couple of gun battles, the first with a guard and the second with police:
The carnage began at about 2 a.m. when Mateen first entered Pulse and opened fire, drawing return shots from an off-duty, uniformed Orlando cop working security, Mina said.
Reinforcements rushed to Pulse and also fired on Mateen, who then retreated to a bathroom, Mina added.
“He (the first officer) responded to shots fired. He did engage in the gun battle with the suspect somewhere near one of the entrances,” Mina recounted.
“Shortly after that, additional officers responded and those additional officers made entry while the suspect was shooting, and engaged in another gun battle with the suspect, forced him to stop shooting and retreat to the bathroom, where we believe he had several hostages.”
Mateen was holed up in a restroom in the club, with four or five hostages, as another 15 to 20 people hid in adjoining bathroom, authorities said.
With Mateen in the bathroom, Pulse patrons were able to flee for their lives early Sunday morning, officials said. In total, he killed 49 people.
“At that time we were able to save and rescue dozens and dozens of people who were injured and not injured and get them out of the club,” Mina said. “Things kind of stabilized.”
For about three hours, hostage negotiators spoke to Mateen, but he didn’t have much to say, according to Mina.
“He was cool and calm when he was making those phone calls to us,” Mina said. “He really wasn’t asking for a whole lot and we were doing most of the asking.”
“Our negotiators were talking with him,” he added. “And there were no shots at that time but there was talk about bomb vests and explosives. There was an allegiance to the Islamic State.”
At one point, Mina said police believed “loss of life was imminent.”
That’s when the police broke down the wall, Mateen came through, and they killed him.
A lot of people earlier were questioning why it took three hours for police to get to him. It seems that the three hours involved the telephone negotiations, during which time no shots were fired.]
How can there be any sense of “we”-ness when about half the population is determined to reduce the country to the level of some socialist banana republic?
The more they push their agenda, the more I abhor these people. I can’t even rightly regard them as fellow countrymen. If HRC is elected I predict the cracks will open into chasms.
Yeah, I’m depressed about the whole situation also.
Other than the Vietnam era, we have never been more divided. In fact, I think it is worse today.
The depth of the harm the Dems have worked on America won’t be fully appreciated for another 10-20 years.
One example. When I hear Libs prattle on about the CAGW scam, I want to slap them silly? Wrong for 30 years but they want to spend billions of other people’s money for nothing.
A big part of why I am so distressed is that apparently nearly half of America is prepared to vote for Hillary. She’s clearly a criminal engaged in a treason-bribery scheme and no one cares.
I don’t think the division is deeper than in the 1960’s. It’s the same division, in a way. It’s that the division shows up everywhere. You can’t go anywhere to avoid it.
Or maybe I’m more conscious of it because I’m older. There were probably visible splits in society that I just didn’t notice when I was a kid. But could a kid today not notice them? It seems like everything we do involves confrontation.
There’s one item worth noting when discussing the possibility of one of the patrons being armed. Quite frequently, when confronted with an armed individual, many would-be mass shooters choose to take their own life instead of getting into a shoot-out. That probably wouldn’t have worked in this situation (given that the SWAT team eventually killed him three hours later), but it is something to keep in mind with your average mass murder shooter.
Also, given the choice between being wounded on the ground with a gun, and being wounded on the ground trying not to flinch when the shooter came back and shot me again, I think I’d prefer the former. Sure, there’s already a lot of casualties at that point. But I suspect that if one of the wounded guys on the ground had been carrying a gun, then a few more lives could have been saved.
Cornhead:
Well, I know a number of Democrats and Independents who care, and yet they will be reluctantly voting for her because they hate and fear Donald Trump more.
That is the terrible reality that we face.
Yes, “How?, and also “why?” …
I just wasted two days trying to get an answer on just that kind of basic question from someone visiting here, who had seemed to indicate that he judged the maintenance of distributive solidarity as important as particular liberty. And his five times repeated reply was finally to the effect that he was suspicious of the question and didn’t want to answer one way or another lest he be dragged into philosophical “rabbit holes”.
That they would vote for a goddamned – literally – psycho rather than a buffoon.
What is it like to fire an AR-15? It’s horrifying, menacing and very very loud
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/firing-ar-15-horrifying-dangerous-loud-article-1.2673201
if you read the above, you can see how much the lying patrol is out by reading what i wrote someplace else about the crap in the article in the daily news
what gets me is that if you had a valid point and skills you could actually debate the merits and maybe come up with something sane, but the insult to readers by playing them as completley cosseted morons without even the baic access to wiki to check stuff is inane, insace, and shows the contempt for which the left has for its fellow human beings, despite its ad copy.
here is my post on another site that doesnt cut posts…
besides, it was a MCX not a AR15…
We are a house divided. Further attacks and, there will be more and even worse… will not heal the breach. Israel not only points to our future vis a vis Islamic terrorism but demonstrates that no external existential threat, no matter how mortally serious it is, will lessen the left’s antipathy toward traditional western civilization.
Today, the left’s reaction is all about the opportunity for ever greater gun control. Disarmament is the agenda, demonstrated by Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson’s declaration that “Gun control is now a matter of homeland security”. The left is now arguing that our national security requires a disarmed public. Rolling Stone just ran an article entitled, “Why It’s Time to Repeal the Second Amendment”
It is a charade of lies designed to exploit ignorance in favor of an agenda.
James Madison warned of that agenda, “Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.” They have an enslaved press, are transforming our military and a disarmed populace is essential to that agenda.
As for armed citizens stopping this, one armed guard was insufficient but when confronted with 2-3 more cops, he retreated.
“This was about the failure of our country and our society to grapple with a huge problem that has been obvious since September 11, 2001–Islamic terrorism abroad and at home.”
It’s not a ‘failure’ when its intentional. They know of exactly what the threat consists. This is all purposeful, the left is determined to destroy American culture and societal cohesion and they are attacking it on multiple fronts.
NEWSFLASH: White House spokesman Josh ‘Lying POS’ Ernst said today that America is safer than it was 8-yrs ago.
Crap of that level of malignant mendacity leaves me gasping.
___________________________________________________________
Neo: Your PJMedia colleague, John Simon, has an amazing piece in the June Issue of “Commentary” on America’s current plague of Moral Narcissism. Breathtaking. Stunning.
I’ve already ordered the book.
While I am at it, allow me to repeat here my final comment made in response to the efforts of a well meaning would-be arbitrator who tried to resolve the unsuccessful exchange I was having with another commenter.
After his asking me to clarify my position, I placed one response and added this:
Neo:
“That is the terrible reality that we face.”
Only because the people who could and should collectively organize the social activist movement that’s necessary to make a 3rd option viable versus Democrat-front Left activists and Left-mimicking Trump-front alt-Right activists, they choose not to compete for real.
Playing dead is a passive rather than an active tactic
works for possum…
but it would have been better if one of the dead players had a gun, and when he was making a phone call hit him with some serious bullets..
at the distances in the glub and a body shot with a .45 or a 9mm, or a .38, or even a cannon like the magnum…
its amazing… and it was florida, a state that allows for more than others…
Artfldgr:
I agree that it might have. Or it might not have. But my impression of the set-up when he was making the phone call was that he was in a restroom with just a few hostages, according to this report, and there had actually been a couple of gun battles with a guard and then police earlier:
That’s when the police broke down the wall, came through, and killed Mateen.
Neo:
“This was about the failure of our country and our society to grapple with a huge problem that has been obvious since September 11, 2001–Islamic terrorism abroad and at home.”
Is Syria Obama’s Fault?.
Bush set the right course based on strong-horse American leadership, it was working when he handed off the duty to Obama, and it would be best to work our back to Bush’s course, if it’s still salvageable.
Articles like the Lawfare Abdulhamid piece remind that the same factions under the current administration that set about to reverse the hard-won foundation-setting gains made after 9/11 had also zealously endeavored to undermine progress during the Bush administration.
and
1. As philosopher Stephen Hicks reminds us (of something we knew but tend to forget), the postmodernist view of reality is that it is essentially “conflictual” and that the conflict is an unending, non-moral (in any objective sense) and involves a permanent clash of appetites and life-ways.
In other words, you cannot be left alone. Because enough is never enough no matter how much you yield.
2, Scifi movies are often stupid. But even the stupid ones sometimes capture certain moments of insight.
Neo
And that’s part of the reason we were for candidates other than Trump. We knew his high negatives would make it tough to win a general election. Lesser of two evils is the choice in 2016.
As I said, it may be a strange kind of courage, but I think it’s courage nonetheless. Perhaps a courage born of desperation, but still–how many among us could pull it off successfully?
Lots… and only people who have not read hundreds of such stories think that normal behaviors in crisis are abnormal when they imagine them from a safe space…
from jews who laid in the pit with dead bodies on them
to women who suffocated their child to keep it quiet
the list of normal but amazing to the cosseted and safe who dont experience much of the darker side of life, is quite large…
one of the more riveting stories is from vietnam, where they killed everyone but one man cause the bullet skimed the inside of his helmet. he laid there.. listening to them shoot everyone as they went… not knowing which shot was to be his, and on and on.. (i think he is a medal of honor recipient)
the list of such things is quite interesting..
Robert Cook saved kimberly dear.. (its best to hear her tell of it and she really gets peeved at feminists who slander men, which is how i found out about the incident)
she was on her first skydiving attempt. the plane engine went. Robert cook did what no woman does for anyone but maybe her kids.
one thing that came up in this was that people were wondering why the police didnt go in and risk their lives (as they used to do)… but one of the big changes to the modern era is that now that there are womnen on the force, safety of the officer is more important than safety of the citizen…
if the men do the male thing, then the women look bad, so they are not allowed and the whole dynamic has changed for both police and fire… in many ways, women on the force have made us a lot less safe, just as women in the military will make it a lot less safe for those in her squad..
your not allowed to outperform the weakest link or else…
Eric: Ditto and Bravo..!!!
The despicable abandonment of the hard won VICTORY in Iraq and the unforgivable 7+yrs of broadcasting weakness and absence of resolve have brought the Planet to this horrifying current state.
Eric:
I am in complete agreement that the left sabotaged what Bush did, almost from the start.
Here’s something I wrote about that a long time ago.
Also see this interview I did in 2006.
One of the Orlando shooting survivors has admitted to locking an exit door, putting dozens of revelers’ lives at risk during the massacre. The revelations about Luis Burbano’s actions the night of the shooting have come to light after he gave an interview, saying he ‘regrets’ his second chance at life.
If you weren’t already depressed, there’s this from the Bloomberg Politics poll June 10-13:
Arfldgr:
Here he says he held the door shut for a few seconds. Nothing about locking it. There’s a different article that tries to sort out the different reports. Very hard to sort it out.
I’m surprised that no one on the left suggested that if they had all stood up in unison and chanted ” Hands up, don’t shoot” that it would have stopped the killing.
Vietnam was bad but it all went away when the draft ended. There were scars for sure but people weren’t at each others throats the way things are now.
I am … exhausted as you are, Neo. Because I don’t think this will be the last mass atrocity, most especially the last one this summer. It’s just the way that it is shaping up, with our ruling class elite determined to put their heads in the sand and blame gun ownership policies, meanwhile steadfastly ignoring militant and aggressive Islam. Maybe the next atrocity venue will be a bar and dance club, a mall like the Westgate in Nairobi, an amusement park, although places like Disneyland have awesome security.
No, I’ll not be going to any venues like that in the coming months. I will have some marketing events for my books — mostly at community centers, libraries and the like, plus the the occasional visit to a restaurant with friends. And I will be carrying – I got my concealed carry license early this year – signs forbidding weapons on the premises be damned. And when my daughter selects or sites our table for an event – it’s always a place with an exit to the outside at our back, and a good view of the entrance.
There are some useful rules for the situation in which the patrons at the Pulse found themselves in. According to one of the stories I read, one of the bouncers was an Army combat veteran, and knew right away as soon as he heard shots fired that something bad was happening. So that’s the first rule – situational awareness. Not guaranteed that everyone at a noisy bar on a Saturday night in the wee hours will be taking heed, of course. Second rule – know where the exits are at. In theaters they are usually clearly labeled, but in shops in the mall, they aren’t. But just about every shop in a mall, or in a strip mall has a back-of-the-house, employees-only area, and a back door, sometimes to a loading dock outside. Move to it, encourage others to go with you, don’t stop to persuade the reluctant. Some say that if you have to hole up and hide – and cover the entrance with your weapon, a bathroom is a good place to wait out a siege. Water to drink, a place to pee … but a bathroom is a dead end. Outside likely is better.
But – if you have to exit a place that has a cordon of law-enforcement personnel around it, come out without a weapon in hand. And yes – I have had to do this – hold out both hands up and in the clear from your sides, with your ID card in one of them.
And at the first of the months, we have to buy more ammunition, and put in an hour or so at the local range.
Yes, I am a bitter clinger – why do you ask? 😉
Good stuff, Sgt. Mom.
neo-neocon.. thanks on that one. i was on the train and only had part of that one article claiming he locked it and regretted it and only had time to post… i was going to go back and make sure… as you know, i dont like pissing into peoples skull with invalid information.. i prefer valid even if it doesnt match what i want.
but on another note, i am noticing that everyones clock is stuck on 9/11 in terms of terrorism and so forth, and this to me is just another insane point
one of the earlier clear attacks on the US was the PLO connected sirhan sirhan.. (though he was supposedly christian and i dont know enough to say what his belief is)
Carlos the Jackal:
On completing guerrilla training, Carlos (as he was now calling himself) played an active role for the PFLP in the north of Jordan during the Black September conflict of 1970, gaining a reputation as a fighter. After the organisation was pushed out of Jordan, he returned to Beirut. He was sent to be trained by Wadie Haddad.
Wadie Haddad died in 1978, way before 9/11 – Abu Hani, was a Palestinian leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine’s armed wing. He was responsible for organizing several civilian airplane hijackings in support of the Palestinian cause in the 1960s and 1970s
Within 20 years of russias deciding to use islam and help ibn-saud, they had them attacking the west using various terrorist actions. there have been a whole lot of them.. and some with greater death tolls that dont seem to make the list of great deaths… and sept 11 pops up quite a bit.
technically if you want to go back to the begining, islam has been attacking and terrorising the west since before the 1500s… if you believe rome is the birth of the west, then their actions started as far back as then.. and the only thing is the pauses in between (like the current pause we are mistaking for peace with russia, china, etc ,and pretending the world has changed)
we have crappy memories…
Feminism was a terrorist group… see Rote Zora
even the mormons had a terrorist group… September 11, 1857 Mountain Meadows massacre.. Mormons attempted unsuccessfully to blame the slaughter on Indians. Some 120 people were murdered in cold blood, making this attack the single deadliest act of terrorism on US soil until the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995
The most active perpetrators of terrorism in New York City were Fuerzas Armadas de Liberacion Nacional (FALN), a Puerto Rican separatist group, responsible for 40 NYC attacks in this decade. The Jewish Defense League (JDL), which engaged in attacks against targets it perceived to be anti-Semitic, launched 27 attacks during this period. Both the Independent Armed Revolutionary Commandos (CRIA), another Puerto Rican separatist group, and Omega 7, an anti-Castro Cuban organization, were also each responsible for 16 attacks during this period
March 1, 1971: The radical leftist group Weatherman exploded a bomb in the United States Capitol to protest the U.S. invasion of Laos.
September 11, 1976: Croatian terrorists hijacked a TWA airliner and diverted it to Gander, Newfoundland and Labrador, and then Paris, demanding a manifesto be printed.
tons tons tons… and many many not just islam… many of them are jewish (jdl) others are croatian, others are students.
and if you want to know which group the left always fears without saying and claiming christians are just as bad is the army of god incidents.
“Are we more divided now than in the ’60s?” is a very interesting question. As one who was around then, and on the left, I would say yes, we are more divided. The extremely alienated–the serious hippies, the radical left (plenty of overlap there) were at least as much at odds with the mainstream as liberals and conservatives are at odds with each other now.
But the left was a tiny minority then. In the intervening 50 years the left’s ideas have become the mainstream, or at least the commanding heights–journalism, entertainment, the academy, much of the national government–the long march we’re always talking about.
And they still hate what used to be the mainstream as much as they ever did. They still see themselves as on a crusade against the forces of oppression. The two sides are much more even in numbers and power now. You can’t have an all-out civil war (as opposed to an insurrection) unless/until the two sides are somewhat matched in power. I think this particular event–the Orlando shooting–reveals once again that we are in some kind of non-violent civil war. Since it happened nothing has been more urgent to the left than to deploy it against their political enemies.
Too bad there were not a few of the type that thwarted the Terrorist on the train in France; or the guy on UA flight 93.
Who can say what anyone can or would do, I certainly have no idea how I would react. But one lesson is clear, concerted, pro-active response, even ad hoc action, pays dividends.
For the gun control freaks. This is another example of why people need to be able to proactively protect themselves. Note, it took three hours for the SWAT team to act. How many died while they waited? I am not criticizing the police, because I have no idea what was involved in the decision–or who made it. The only point is that if you have to wait for police response in any deadly situation, your chances of survival go down considerably. (I am aware that universal or casual carry of guns in an establishment serving alcohol would never sell–and shouldn’t)
One more point. I see calls for stricter gun control legislation along the lines of preventing people on the “no fly list’ from buying a gun? Say what? That isn’t covered? The problem does not seem to be a lack of gun control laws, but a lack of competent implementation.
guys, plural, of course, on UA93.
I’m not in favor of an AWB–but:
1. Bombs don’t always work. Sometimes they blow the user up. Sometimes they don’t go off. Getting a boiler bomb into the night club could provoke a search by security.
Professional explosives ARE hard to get.
2. Buying a gun on the black market is not necessarily easy. If you have contacts, sure–but if you’re an amateur? A lot can go wrong.
This doesn’t mean an AWB would have stopped him. He could have used, for example, a hunting rifle–but I think the NRA is right that if the terror-watch-list is cleaned up and used a bit better then having him on it–and having that prevent legal acquisition of a weapon, might be a good thing.
Oldflyer:
I think the link in the addendum gives quite a bit of information on why it took 3 hours. Not the details, but enough to come up with a plausible explanation. There was no shooting during those three hours. He was holed up in the bathroom with about 5 hostages. Meanwhile, the survivors in the main room were able to exit (apparently with police help) during those three hours. The police were negotiating over the phone with the terrorist. Once they realized he was not going to surrender, they knocked down a wall and killed him.
Before those three hours began, the police had already entered the premises and engaged him in a shootout. It was after that that he retreated to the restroom and the three hours began. Meanwhile, it’s my understanding that the police in the main body of the club helped the survivors escape.
Artfldgr:
Sirhan Sirhan was of Christian background. My guess is that he wasn’t a practicing Christian, certainly not of a conventional sort. But his parents were Palestinian Christians. He most definitely was not a Muslim.
This is his religious history:
Also, when I referenced 9/11, I did not mean to say it was the actual beginning of the US being a target of Islamic terrorists. I certainly remember many many incidents prior to that. But it was the big defining watershed moment for a lot of people, and one would have thought it should have caused a lot more changes in attitude and approach. That change was temporary for the most part, it turns out (at least so far).
Fun fact –
Sirhan Sirhan apparently attended my high school. Curiously, he’s not one of the famous former students that the high school brings up when talking about people who attended.
Neo said, “Now to the question of whether it would have helped had some of the patrons been armed. Well, if this timeline is correct, there was an armed guard there who engaged the shooter, and it didn’t seem to stop him all that much, although perhaps it did slow him down. . .”
Two points. First, when the shooter faced the armed guard, it was a one-on-one situation with the surprise on the side of the shooter. The surprise and limitations might work in favor of the shooter. But, Secondly, when the other armed people showed up, the shooter stopped the free-for-all shooting of the crowd and was forced into a small room with a small number of hostages. This also allowed a lot of people to be rescued and medically helped where needed from the other areas of the carnage.
Where it is not a one-on-one situation with the shooter and a guard, an armed person or persons in a crowd might have a second to shoot an already occupied shooter who cannot see everywhere and everyone in the crowd in the same instant.
And as we have seen time and time again, when it comes to nightclubs and places were a mass of people are gathered, gasoline and a match–or even an accident that started a fire–can kill and injure a large number of people.
Sophisticated methods and weapons aren’t necessary to murder a number of people, if the brain of the murderer is determined to carry out murder. What does it take to yell, as though hysterically, “There’s a bomb!” near a crowd going through a small exit, and maybe causing one of those stampedes that kill people?
It’s easy to do damage, especially if you don’t plan to escape yourself.
Art,
Western civilization started with the Greeks. Rome started over a thousand years before Muhammad was born. If you got something as basic as that wrong, it calls into question all the other ‘facts’ and assertions you’ve previously made.
that poll compares to a similar one in march, where red queen was 18 points ahead, leave aside the sampling issues,
we find our selves with a san bernardino, an orlando, because the administration for whatever reason you care to bring up, has burned the trail, that underlies the tabligh network that ties these mosques together, with shibly and marcus robertson, so we are left pondering the roehmesque machinations of mateen jr,
Artful, I love your comments. Please keep them coming. I always read them.
Also, I note that the reporter who wrote that piece you destroyed also claimed to have PTSD from it (though for a short time). I believe that any person who HAS PTSD views that kind of a claim the way a rape victim awakening from a coma from the violence of their trauma views a woman who hears a man say, in passing on the street, “Hi, Babe!” and then claiming that SHE has been sexually assaulted by the event.
That whole article infuriated me.
In the rush to create victims who will then turn to them for “help”, the Left changes language to encompass practically everything they need.
they were a sitting duck, because of the ‘gun free zone’ and the administrations benign neglect,
While there are certainly legitimate concerns, I’m very leary of using a listing on the terrorist watch list alone, as justification for barring gun ownership. Simply because I don’t trust the people who ultimately determine who is on that list. DHS honcho Jeh Johnson just got done asserting that “right wing extremists” are just as dangerous as Jihadist terrorists. I can only remember a very few McVeighs going after the feds and none that indiscriminately slaughter innocent Americans. As far as the left is concerned, anyone who owns a gun and supports the Constitution as written is a “right wing extremist”.
I so relate to what Neo said about reading the news upon waking up. I am an older woman who remembers when our country would have retaliated ASAP for Orlando. Are we doing anything so far? WHY ARE WE NOT BOMBING ISIS TO SMITHEREENS???
We are infected with so many cowards in our leadership that if we survive them, it will be amazing.
I am so LIVID and depressed hearing all this weasel talk about guns when the talk should be about ISIS and allowing thousands of ‘refugees’ in here without a clue who they are. What in the h*ll is wrong with these people? It is hard to sleep thinking about all this.
exactly, who is left off that list, and who is on, now if there was a description of what criteria was used to determine placement, probably someone on the TIDES list, would have more propensity to act on these impulses,
because islamic state is not primarily in raqqua, it’s in london and paris and molenbeek, and ft pierce and san bernardino,
the one the tsarnaev bros were on, the plan carried out on the eve of sunday, was like bataclan but it borrowed from reda’s hostage scenario,
There is no “debate” about gun control, Neo.
There is the Left shoving that down our throats, and the right, which resists.
Not a debate at all. An attempted takeover by the Left.
The Right has the public firearms; the Left is in command of the military.
Artfldgr @ 4:59 pm shows how the Leftist media (NYDaily News) is trying to lather up hysteria by having a gun-naive metrosexual wimpy pajama boy try to shoot an AR-15 and write about it, all lies, distortions, exaggerations for the many many weenies in NYC. You think Anthony Weiner ever shot a gun?
I do not get the sense that you are absolute in defense of the Second Amendment, or at least not as vigorously defensive as you might be. I have not reviewed your posts on guns and will not do so, but that is the sense I have. If wrong, I apologize.
Some of us legally carry defensive sidearms in our vehicles, keep a pistol at bedside. I also have an entirely legal 12 ga. pump shotgun in my closet. Any bad guy hearing the cha-chunk of that shotgun slide knows exactly what it means, and will hustle away in all probability before a shot is fired. Since it is not for bird hunting, it holds six rounds.
I also have an AR-15.
I will not surrender my weapons peacefully. I am far from alone. Everyone I know feels the same way. Everyone hunts, or has hunted. What a great culture!
G>B>:
Jeh Johnson is part of the new and growing Black Uberklasse. They intend oppression which would have made fascists blush with envy.
Francesca,
Most are useful idiots, many at the top are traitors. That’s not hyperbole, no other label fits.
Frog,
They cannot ever stop attempting to disarm the public. They can never be secure as long as the public is armed. The military is not yet fully in their pocket, only the upper eschelons. Last year a poll showed that only 15% of the military personally admired Obama.
Frog:
Of course there are debates. You just happen to think one side in the debate hasn’t got any validity. But I’ve read plenty of articles, pro and con.
And if you want to know what I think of the Second Amendment, why not do a search on the blog for “second amendment,” rather than guessing?
I have written many articles on the subject. Q summary statement of my position can be found here, as well as this, this, this, this, this, and this.
DNW, far above, thanks for referencing Stephen Hicks. I just read his book, Explaining Postmodernism, which really gets into how much of this denial of reason (and evidence) and sticking with a narrative which fulfills your emotions has a philosophical underpinning, in the Counter-Enlightenment from Kant and Hegel up through Michel Foucault. In other words, reality for these people is faith-based. Facts and evidence mean nothing. Go with what you feel.
This goes together with Shame, by Shelby Steele, who makes a convincing case that the hypocrisies of America exposed in the 1960s led many liberals to see anti-Americanism as a necessary part of their identity, so that they could feel themselves to be innocent and untainted by those sins of the past. That is, they view America as intrinsically evil, beyond reform, and this is why they are so intolerant of heresy and so hate conservatives.
I cannot here do justice to either book — but they’re both short, and directly address the culture war we are now in.
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2016/06/16/definitely-stupid/
“The masses of people are accustomed to thinking of the elites as smarter than themselves. But when civilizations teeter it is usually because the elites have proved stupider than the common man. This may be the case now.”
Fernandez is referring to the “elites” in governments, USA and western Europe. But then again a stupid common man could do a lot of damage too.
DNW – that you continue on with two more posts alluding to our “exchange” (and three more after my final response at the original article) just helps make the point about where the discussion was headed. There was never a “simple yes or no” that would suffice.
BTW, might surprise you that Stephen Hicks’ blog has been on my reading list for some time, even to the point of using google translate to read some of his posts. Are we necessarily far from each other philosophically – IDK?
Anyway, I don’t care to take up any more blog comment space relitigating this topic and drag the readers through it all.
I was hoping you thought the same.
Please let sleeping dogs lie.
“One thing I think is fairly obvious is that gun-free zones encourage shooters, because only the law-abiding will comply.”
Facts that the nimrods supporting Gun Control refuse to recognize. Also although they are all raging about an AR-15 ban, the gun was never used in this incident.
Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up.
And as far as those who think- What is wrong with adding a No Buy to the No Fly list- How about we tackle the real problem- What are we doing to fix the immigration system that brings these creeps to America?
Understand this as noted by Mark Levin on WMAL today at 7:30- Back when we were using Ellis Island that all the political hacks like to talk about, There was no God Given Right to come to America. If you were not healthy, you were denied entrance. If you were a criminal, you were denied entrance. If you wanted to destroy America you were denied entrance. In short you had to present yourself as a potential asset to this country and not a liability. And both sides of the aisle thought this was just common sense. Although it is not up yet an a snippet on their web page, check back to listen to it. It was a thoughtful informative rant, that neither the political hacks in congress or the empty suit in the WH will even consider.
http://www.wmal.com/ under Brian and Larry Interviews
Neo, as I said, I was not going to check out your past 2nd Amendment pieces, which you have now graciously supplied. They date from 2007 to 2013. Things have occurred in the meantime that have hardened the positions.
Articles written pro or con are very poor substitutes for debates. The anti-gun pieces are written for an overwhelmingly anti-gun readership, and the pro-gun pieces for pro-gunners. That is not a debate.That is two voices talking past each other.
There is no legitimate basis for undoing the 2nd Amendment, period. A litmus test of conservatism.
I am inclined to believe you have never fired or owned a gun. Am I wrong?
The esteemed Rulers are all anti-gun, so we ALL hear about that. Which is why gun sales take a spike after every jihadi or nutter attack. All recents except the school shooter got their guns legally. To make guns harder to get will mean a police state. Are the anti-guns OK with that? Yes, they are; it is part of their takeover plan. Or will they tell us these police state procedures will be like abortion: “Legal, safe and rare”?
How many million abortions since Clinton said that?
Frog:
Excuse me, but to ask
” I am inclined to believe you have never fired or owned a gun. Am I wrong?”
That is none of your, or my, or anyone’s %2+** business. Why don’t you Just say “Neo, you are ignorant” and be done with it? She is not.
“To make guns harder to get will mean a police state.” – Frog
Probably not, though it certainly makes a police state easier to enforce – what I guess you really mean, right?
There are too many countries that have much stricter controls that are not police states.
But, yes, this has become a flagship issue for both Dems and GOP. Hence, compromise on either side would not ever settle it, so neither side dares grant even the slightest concession. You raise abortion, which is, indeed, analogous in this respect.
Sgt. Mom – when I see the graphics on the no firearms sign, I interpret it as stating that no guns are for sale there. So, although I don’t CC, I could see brushing right past those signs with nary a thought.
~~
Are we more divided now than before? Since I was a Dem growing up, it’s hard to tell. But I will say that most EVERYTHING is politicized now days. No matter what the issue, people will make it into a right vs left thing. Well, not ‘people’, but leftists. It’s tiring.
A lot of the story make no sense to me. At what point in these police narratives did Mateen shoot the 100+ people. The story being told by officials seems to be a couple of shooting periods between Mateen and officers (on-duty and off), with a long period of Mateen being holed up in the restroom. In all these narratives, I can’t identify the period when Mateen was killing and injurying the patrons. Someone is lying.
And, yes, these shootings tend to occur in locations that the shooter can be reasonably sure he is the only armed person in the building. This isn’t by accident.
I did not mention your name. I was referring to the manifestation of a particular phenomenon two commenters had mentioned, with an illustration.
Neo, put Hicks name into play some time ago. He is not my discovery. I had never read him before, and to this point my familiarity has largely been gained in listening to 3 speeches and reading the “Explaining Postmodernism …” book. He seems to be some kind of Objectivist, although I did not realize it until I belatedly read about him, as opposed to what he had himself written
I think that in general the book’s analysis is excellent, and in his speaking as well as in the book he makes numerous acute observations regarding both the doctrines which comprise the public stance, as well as the possible psychological perspectives and resultant rhetorical strategies of those who profess these doctrines.
His verbal comments on Heidegger are flip and inadequate truncations which parallel the much more neutral and substantive remakes in the book.
I’m not sure what you mean by two posts. You must be counting the one here. Of the two postmortems in the earlier thread, one was addressed to Nick.
Please feel free to ignore anything that I write, if it helps.
Regards,
I have not read all the comments yet, so I am commenting on the post itself.
I also tend to go all rosy glasses etc, but lately, I have been remembering my grandparents during the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. My grandmother became very grouchy, touchy, snippy about what was going on during those days. She was distressed to the point of tears over my brother’s hair length, by the bikinis we wore, by swearing and nudity in movies. It really, really upset her and it soured her until the day she died. Now, these may not seem like big things today in light of the last seven years, but as I contemplate it looking backwards, she was viewing what she considered to be the coarsening of society. All the things she held dear as hallmarks of civility and decent behavior were going out the window with pot smoking, LSD and hippies. We laughed at her horror, “Oh, Gram!” as we sunbathed on the dock at our cottage and reminded her that the Romantic poets and Thomas Jefferson had long hair.
Now, I feel her pain. I get it. I understand and I wish I could listen to her with more compassion.
Janetoo:
Well, if you had studied the lives of the Romantic poets, that probably wouldn’t have been a comforting comparison 🙂 .
Yes, isn’t it funny how we come to understand our elders better as we become elders ourselves?
Yancey Ward:
Perhaps someone more versed in firearms could answer the question better than I, but my sense of it is that it happened before the police came, or when the police were there at the beginning, and that some of the casualties may have been from the police shooting at him although the majority were from him.
Let’s say it took the police ten minutes or so to get there. In a very very crowded place, with an armed assailant and unarmed victims, why couldn’t you kill 49 people and wound another 50 or so in that time? And then apparently there was some more killing right before he was killed.
In 10 minutes there are 600 seconds. A crowded room would be something like fish in a barrel, wouldn’t it? You wouldn’t even have to be that good a shot. And my guess is that, as a security guard, he probably was a fairly good shot.
As I said, someone who knows more about firearms than I do (which would be almost everyone who knows anything about them) could answer the question better.
But there is a certain “fog of war” element in the reporting of the event.
Frog:
Obviously I did not limit the word “debate” to the literal sense, as in a formal debate. Usually the word is used, in the type of context in which I used it, to mean arguments are mounted on either side.
Which they are. And I have read them. It’s a debate.
I have indicated that over all these years my position on gun control and the Second Amendment is to protect liberty and the Second Amendment.
“a stupid common man could do a lot of damage too” OM
No less a personage than Winston Churchill agreed, “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
In support of that observation is that the AVERAGE IQ in America is 100, which leaves many millions below that number.
Frog,
I am fully satisfied with neo’s position on the 2nd. The pro and con arguments amount to a debate in the public’s mind, which is where the battle is joined.
Tying that together with the public’s average IQ of 100, means that the ‘filter’ those arguments pass through are the basic attitudes and unquestioned premises of the public in the aggregate.
I know! I read a bio about Shelley five years ago and YIKES!
After the massacre in Orlando, Donald Trump made a very good speech, one that shows that he understands the issues of the time in a way that other political leaders just don’t:
http://time.com/4367120/orlando-shooting-donald-trump-transcript/
Hopefully,that message can get out there more, and end up making a difference.
I wouldn’t call it a non violent civil war engaged by the Left. The Leftist alliance has been engaged in an active or cold war against humanity for some time now.