Home » The myths of history: Churchill’s defeat

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The myths of history: Churchill’s defeat — 18 Comments

  1. One of the most discouraging things I have become increasingly convinced of over the past decade (or two), is how important narrative is in belief. Important facts are unremembered quickly; others gradually transform so that events of 1987 are re-remembered to 1985, or from Aunt Sophie’s house to Gramma Helen’s. This is not the pathological few. This is how memory works. This is why contact with relatives from different branches, or showing up at a school reunion after a long absence can be both exciting and confounding.

    In Bush v Gore in 2000, there were two parts decided, an Equal Protection Clause decision and a remedy decision. Opinions vary, but most observers of both parties before the hearing that the former was more important. SCOTUS ruled 7-2 in favor of Bush on that. Beginning almost immediately after, it ceased to be mentioned in news reports and discussion. The remedy issue was decided in favor of Bush 5-4, and that quickly became to only piece anyone remembered. You can’t even find more than 1 in 10 Republicans who know it now.

  2. I think it’s a question of the story and its relative drama.

    This way of looking at it reminds me of a comment I saw on a YouTube video some time back concerning Boris Spassky’s chess career after his defeat in the world championship by Bobby Fischer. Some commenter on that video started BS-ing about how “it’s a little known fact, but Spassky never played serious chess again after that match”, something to that effect – the really killer part being that wise-looking “little-known fact” angle.

    I normally don’t get into the back-and-forth too much on comment threads like that, but I couldn’t take that one lying down, so I replied simply stating that the reason it was so little-known is because it was 100% false and gave some basic facts about Spassky that anyone could verify. But I could understand why someone would go for that narrative, because to hear it put that way does add to the drama of the real history, even if it’s completely and utterly fecal in terms of fact.

  3. Winston Churchill didn’t really exist, say teens
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1577511/Winston-Churchill-didnt-really-exist-say-teens.html

    A fifth of British teenagers believe Sir Winston Churchill was a fictional character, while many think Sherlock Holmes, King Arthur and Eleanor Rigby were real, a survey shows.

    A quarter of the population think that Winston Churchill never actually existed, a survey suggests.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    I battle these Mythperceptions all the time..

    even here…

    we say Trump brings out the negative

    “He would make a drum out of the skin of his own mother in order to sound his own praises.”
    (Lloyd George on Churchill)

    And you realize that Winston Churchill and Princess Diana were related, right?

    Churchills dad: Lord Randolph Henry Spencer Churchill
    Diana, Princess of Wales: Diana Spencer

    Spencer family
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_family

    there are a lot of myths connected to the organs of state and the games played, especially the great game…

    “This movement among the Jews is not new. It is part of a world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, envious malevolence, and impossible equality.” W Churchill

    if you want to really read about myths that are in our souls and the truth behind them try reading

    The Sword and the Sheild

    the “Moscow Patriarchate” on order from Stalin in 1943 as a front organization for the NKVD, and later, for the KGB. All key positions in the Church, including bishops, were approved by the Ideological Department of CPSU and by the KGB. The priests were used as agents of influence in the World Council of Churches and in front organizations such as World Peace Council, Christian Peace Conference, and the Rodina (“Motherland”) Society founded by the KGB in 1975. The future Russian Patriarch Alexius II said that Rodina has been created to “maintain spiritual ties with our compatriots” and to help organize them. According to the archive, Alexius worked for the KGB as agent DROZDOV, and received an honorary citation from the agency for a variety of services

    Support of international terrorism

    The Andrew and Mitrokhin publications briefly describe the history of the PLO leader, Yasser Arafat, who established close collaboration with the Romanian Securitate service and the Soviet KGB in the early 1970s. The KGB provided secret training for PLO guerrillas. However, the main KGB activities and arms shipments were channeled through Wadie Haddad of the PFLP organization, who usually stayed in a KGB dacha BARVIKHA-1 during his visits to the Soviet Union. Led by Carlos the Jackal, a group of PFLP fighters carried out a spectacular raid on the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries office in Vienna in 1975. Advance notice of this operation “was almost certainly” given to the KGB

    And what do we believe the PLO and all that is today? and Islam myths and more?

    Many notable operations are alleged to have been conducted by the KGB to support international terrorists with weapons on the orders from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, including:

    Transfer of about one hundred machine-guns, automatic rifles, Walther pistols, and cartridges to the Marxist Official Irish Republican Army by the Soviet intelligence vessel Reduktor (operation SPLASH) in 1972, supposedly to fulfill a personal request for arms from Cathal Goulding, relayed through Irish Communist Party leader Michael O’Riordan

    Transfer of anti-tank grenade RPG-7 launchers, radio-controlled SNOP mines, pistols with silencers, machine guns, and other weaponry to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine through Wadi Haddad, who was recruited as a KGB agent in 1970 (operation VOSTOK, “East”)

    Thats ok, they are helping kill american troops in the middle east now… and most of the palestine stuff now is birthed in these operations then…

    tons tons tons tons tons of stuff…

    During the Prague Spring events in Czechoslovakia, Andropov was a vigorous proponent of “extreme measures” He ordered the fabrication of false intelligence not only for public consumption, but also for the Soviet Politburo.“The KGB whipped up the fear that Czechoslovakia could fall victim to NATO aggression or to a coup”. At that moment, Soviet intelligence officer Oleg Kalugin reported from Washington that he had gained access to “absolutely reliable documents proving that neither CIA nor any other agency was manipulating the Czechoslovak reform movement”. But, Kalugin’s messages were destroyed because they contradicted the conspiracy theory fabricated by Andropov. Andropov ordered many active measures, collectively known as operation PROGRESS, against Czechoslovak reformers.

    Aids made in a militery biowarfar center in the US is another myth that people believe… in fact, Racialist leaders in the west bring this up claiming it was to kill blacks…

    even CNN foments it!!!
    AIDS: Manmade Biological Weapon
    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-949062

    Disinformation and Dan Rather
    http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/disinformation-and-dan-rather/

    In one of the most notorious examples of Communist disinformation appearing in the U.S. media, Dan Rather reported in a newscast on March 30, 1987, that a Soviet publication had charged that an American military laboratory had developed the virus that caused the AIDS epidemic. He did not accompany this charge with any comment from the Pentagon or the State Department. This story had been exposed as Soviet disinformation before Rather aired it.

    The Soviet Communist officials in charge of propaganda activities must have been ecstatic. The Soviets had placed the charge in over 200 publications, as well as radio broadcasts, in 25 different languages. To get the charge aired on a major American television network was a real coup. One unfortunate result of the campaign was a proposed class action lawsuit by people with AIDS against the U.S. Government, charging that the virus was engineered by the Pentagon and that the government should therefore pay financial damages to the victims.

    Its amazing to compare the two
    which do you believe, the complicated one with all the references.. or the one where the soviets admit they did this? gorbachev admitted it… it was to cover up their Anthrax excape and violation of biowarfar treaties… (so youc an be sure yamentau mountain is not full of weapons as they always follow treaties. like the eight peace treaties they violated in invading latvia)

    oh well..
    i could spend weeks listing out things on both sides..
    and the funnier thing is i read here and people mention lots of myths and dont know it and ignore open facts that what they think is not true, and on and on….

    whatever…

  4. Doesn’t sound like much of a rejection of Churchill to me.

    Of course it was a rejection of Churchill, right after the war he had won. And, to make it even worse, the Brits voted in a party that was dedicated to many of the things that Britain had just fought against in the war. You can’t get much more serious rejection than that.

    I’m not sure why the idea of Churchill being permanently tossed out is a thing. I’ve never heard that even included in any discussion of Churchill and the lunacy of Great Britain following WWII.

    The facts are that Churchill basically won the war for Britain and they thanked him by tossing him out and putting a bunch of brain-dead socialists in power.

  5. the item your referring to with Bobby Fischer is from Seirawan & Stefanovic 1992, p. 22…..

    After the 1972 World Chess Championship, Fischer did not play a competitive game in public for nearly 20 years n 1977 in Cambridge, Massachusetts, he played three games against the MIT Greenblatt computer program, winning them all

    at the time of the actual events, i was part of the manhatten chess club, and used to play ex soviets. i was never that good, but Maurice Seymour and my dad used to make a bit of extra scratch taking on people for money. Maurice was incredible chess player and loved playing me, and both taught me about real art, and such…

    maurice would always beat me… but he loved playing cause of what i would do to desperately stay in the game pushing for 25 turn tie… he said i would make brilliant moves and then not know i did it and so did not capitalize on them… he played for the brilliant flash of ignorant desperation leading to interesting moves.

    my favorite chess style would be Lasker.. incredibly aggressive, and amazingly so…

    i prefer Go to Chess…

    but if you want to understand international intrigue and things that are done, evne here, chess is the game.

    especially the concept of disparate parts that converge over time to be something that is very dangerous or bad, but was thought of as innocuous and nothings..

    you know, like ayers weather undergroud leading to the presidency by such methods…

    an interesting book to read if your interested in how it applies to intrigue

    “The KGB Plays Chess” by GM Boris Gulko, Vladimir Popov (KGB Colonel, retired), Yuri Felshtinsky, and GM Viktor Korchnoi

    Anatoly Karpov turned out to work with the KGB his codename was Raul…

    Possessing a powerful intellect, a great player and a great manipulator, Karpov made splendid use the opportunities which opened up before him as an agent of the KGB.
    – from the Foreward by Boris Gulko, pg 10

    The outwardly quiet Karpov, who spoke in a high and not very manly voice, reeatedly met with Andropov without having any panic attacks. After their first meeting, Andropov, who had received instructions from Brezhvev to use any means necessary to prevent the “traitor Korchnoi” from winning the world chess championship, ordered the creation of an “operational group” of KGB agents to accompany Karpov to the title match in Baguio in 1978.

    P&F, pg 21

    ya have to study it to know, otherwise you wont even know your missing information in your thoughts and assesments!!!! but dont ignore it, as they have had huge influence to things, or havent you noticed that we have fulfilled most of the planks and such as to suskinds warnings?

  6. I would add that the reaction of US politicians after WWII left something to be desired, too. We doubled down on the crazy League of Nations (which was a sick joke and an unnatural entity of the worst kind) and ratified the 4th Geneva Conventions, which basically declared “illegal” all the most effective tactics we had just used to win the war. To our credit, no one really took those conventions seriously (nor the UN, to start) but just giving such hair-brained and nutty ideas life was bad enough and certainly provided decent competition to the stupidity of the Brits in tossing Churchill out.

    Of course, such silliness is to be expected after such traumatic events such as WWII (as when someone wakes up with a crushing hangover and “swears” that he’ll never drink again – LOL) but one usually hopes that such post-traumatic stupidity is restricted to unimportant issues.

  7. IMPORTANT NOTE: The Potsdam Conference in Germany was happening with Harry Truman, Joseph Stalin and Winston when the Labour Gov’t took over. Churchill was replaced at the vastly important table by the far less experienced and Leftward/Socialist Clement Atlee.

    Breathtaking timing to understate it by a mile.

  8. progressoverpeace:

    You are taking my “doesn’t sound like…” quote out of context.

    I wrote “doesn’t sound like much of a rejection of Churchill to me” in this context. This is the quote:

    Many people who seem to know about his 1945 loss seem to regard it as the end of his political career. It was not. He served again as PM from 1951 to 1955, and resigned at that point due to health reasons (he had had several strokes, and the one he had close to his resignation had been relatively severe). What’s more, he was 80 years old by the time of his resignation.

    Doesn’t sound like much of a rejection of Churchill to me.

    I think it’s very clear I’m referring to the entire history of Churchill’s postwar political career.

    Of course the immediate postwar vote was a defeat, and a rejection at least partly aimed at Churchill (although probably more aimed at his party). But that’s not what I’m referring to in that quote, as you can see if you look at where in the post I put it.

  9. Assistant Village Idiot Says:
    June 10th, 2016 at 3:37 pm
    One of the most discouraging things I have become increasingly convinced of over the past decade (or two), is how important narrative is in belief. Important facts are unremembered quickly; others gradually transform so that events of 1987 are re-remembered to 1985, or from Aunt Sophie’s house to Gramma Helen’s. This is not the pathological few. This is how memory works. This is why contact with relatives from different branches, or showing up at a school reunion after a long absence can be both exciting and confounding.

    ***
    I remember many summer afternoons in my grandparent’s yard listening to Granny and Auntie sparring with each other interminably over when or where this or that happened, and they would never agree, and then re-run the same conversation the next week.
    There is lots of research out on how our memory plays tricks on us.

  10. You omit Neo to mention that he second time as PM was a disaster. Glossed over by the Churchill fans.

    The thing is that Churchill was never that popular at the time.

    The popularity is a retrospective thing — basically people’s gratitude for his service in the war. But if you read contemporary documents you can see it shining through.

    There are many pockets that hated Churchill with a passion. His attitude to “colonials” was disgraceful (and ditching Australians in the deep end at Gallipoli and Singapore did little to help that). The Welsh didn’t forgive him for sending in the troops against their striking miners. The Catholic Irish hated him. The Liberal Party didn’t like him as a ship-jumper.

    You are confusing your admiration with what the people at the time felt, which was quite different. I would suggest that he lost the election in 1945 because he was unlikeable and unliked.

  11. Chester Draws:

    I never said he was wildly popular in the Fifties in England, nor did I assume or suggest his PM-ship during the Fifities was especially successful.

    Churchill always had his detractors. During the Thirties, in particular, he was considered at best mildly eccentric and at worst crazy and even dangerous. They called on him during the war because they recognized he would be the best person to lead the nation during wartime, and in particular because it turned out that much of the “crazy” stuff he was warning about during the 30s had been correct.

    What I was trying to point out by this post was that you read over and over about his rejection by the British people postwar (usually the “ungrateful” British people) as though that was the end of the story between Churchill and the British people. It certainly was not. However “popular” he was or wasn’t during the early 50s, he was popular enough to have been the leader of his party as PM once again. That’s almost never part of the “narrative” that’s told by those who talk about the rejection—the fact that said rejection apparently was neither deep nor permanent.

    I grew up during the 50s and 60s, by the way, and well remember when Churchill died (January of 1965). The Brits treated it like a very, very, VERY big deal.

  12. Myths are about what people wish to be true and/or about what they wish other people to believe is true.

    progressoverpeace,

    Perhaps I misunderstand but the League of Nations matter happened after WWI not WWII…

    Chester Draws,

    What colonial attitudes might those be? If memory serves, commenter ‘blert’ recently asserted that Churchill was not responsible for Gallipoli. A reading of the Tonypandy riots demonstrates that the Welsh unfairly held Churchill responsible. The Catholic Irish favored disunion. Churchill right and wisely opposed any movement toward a balkinized UK. Reagan too was a ‘skip jumper’ and each had valid reasons for doing so.

    I’m not disputing that Churchill was disliked by many but as Oscar Wild observed, “You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies”. Churchill was a giant among men.

  13. Churchill was openly advocating sending MORE boys to the Far East to go shoulder to shoulder with America and Russia against Japan.

    THAT’s what did him in — with 14th Army — in particular.

    14th Army’s votes were the last to surge into Britain — as they had to be flown back from the Far East.

    The RN vote from the Far East was also dismal, IIRC.

    ( Oft forgot, the RN was also active at Okinawa, American video histories entirely omit this British Fleet. They did make the USN overnight believers in armored flight decks. )

    What no-one at the time imagined was that the atomic bomb was waiting in the wings to instantly terminate the Pacific Campaign.

    The overwhelming popular consensus was that Japan would be a multi-year campaign. Visions of advancing through Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, China were bouncing through the brains of 14th Army.

    The RN reported back suicidal furies at Okinawa… with no nearby port facilities to support the Royal Navy.

    ( Only the USN had an oceanic floating port. )

    As they retreated, the Japanese left everything devastated — Warsaw, style.

  14. Perhaps I misunderstand but the League of Nations matter happened after WWI not WWII…

    Yes … and after WWII we doubled down on that stupidity by making an even worse entity – the UN. That was my point.

    And neo, I know exactly what that quote I posted was from and referring to but I used that quote to answer your more general point that Churchill had not really been rejected by the Brits because they hired his party back later on. My point was that that later election didn’t matter. The Brits’ rejection of Churchill at the end of the war was the only significant point and it was an unequivocal, ungrateful, insane rejection of “the man” who had just saved them. Their later actions made no difference for this point. His later tenure as PM is totally inconsequential in assessing the mind-numbing ingratitude and stupidity of the British electorate immediately post-WWII.

  15. British politics is not presidential; we vote for parties. In the summer of 1945 the Conservative Party was seen as the party of Appeasement and also associated with ‘The Hungry 30s’ (many a myth there).

    Britain had become a socialist country to fight the war, and it seemed logical that peace time socialism would work even better. Attlee was no Churchill, but he seemed the man to make the transition from wartime to peace time socialism. He is still much admired for his character.

    Churchill’s relationship with the Conservative party was ambiguous. He was far more of a Liberal. Churchill was about all the Conservatives had going for them. He alone was not enough.

    The 1945 Election was a rejection of the past and an affirmation of the future.

  16. We had, in WW II, rationing. There were other inconveniences not directly related to combat. Some rationing involved gasoline, so travel was difficult. Food was not as easily available.
    Dozens, hundreds, of little pinpricks in daily life.
    In the UK it was exponentially worse. Less food. Less energy. Street signs taken down. People looking over your shoulder for “spies”.
    All at the behest of “the government” which, in British terms can mean either the mechanisms of government or the ruling coalition of the moment.
    I’m sure getting rid of those so-and-sos was on everybody’s mind.
    There’s a story that the socialist ministers said, after WW II, that an island made of coal and practically floating on fish can run out of neither. Shortly thereafter, both were rationed. So the government got out of the coal and fishing business and things returned to normal.

  17. “The 1945 Election was a rejection of the past and an affirmation of the future.” Caedmon

    Yes and we can all now see the future it led too; civilizational suicide.

  18. It’s an interesting comparison that here in America, the General who won the war was made President in 1952.

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