Liveblogging the debate
Well, I’ll start out by watching, anyway.
My first question: why is Kasich there? Why oh why? (That’s a rhetorical question; I know the answer).
Christie keeps the focus on Obama and Clinton. Cruz goes right to “radical Islamist terrorism.” Carson goes with “radical Islamist jihadism,” after a moment of silence for the San Bernardino victims.
Bush: “Trump’s a chaos candidate, and he’d be a chaos president.” Trump responds by basically saying Jeb’s a loser. At the moment, Trump is doing nearly the impossible, IMHO: making Jeb look kind of good.
Rubio is doing very well in deflecting a question about Trump’s proposal about banning Muslim immigration, and going on the attack against Obama. And Cruz is Cruz: a carefully composed and completely coherent answer that hits all the salient points.
No comments yet. Perhaps I’m the only person watching 🙂 .
Rubio and Cruz get into an argument about some of the finer points of a Senate battle about collecting NSA data, and Christie uses that as an opportunity to criticize the Senate, which is probably a popular stance. Who likes the Senate? Nobody.
Fiorina gives an eloquent and impassioned answer on why we’re not catching the terrorists, reminding me of why I liked her in the first place.
Trump says he’d shut off some part of the internet to terrorists, or something like that. I can’t say I understand exactly what he’s referring to, maybe because he’s not being exact.
More fighting between Cruz and Rubio about votes they’ve had in the Senate on funding the military. I think this sort of infighting is exactly what CNN would like to see, and doesn’t really help either Cruz or Rubio, because it seems (as Christie indicated earlier) like too much inside baseball. The Democrats would love nothing better than to see Cruz and Rubion destroy each other.
Boy, did Jeb Bush just press a button for Trump, who had a mini temper tantrum and sounded like a seventh-grader. (This was around 10:18 PM).
Cruz: I’ll build a wall, and I’ll have Donald Trump pay for it. Trump seems to find that funny, and he and Cruz have a little bro moment. The bad blood tonight seems to be between Rubio and Cruz.
Now (at around 10:55) we have a few minutes of everyone singing Republican kumbaya. And Trump pledges (seemingly sincerely, but that can change on a dime) to not run as an independent.
Now that the debate is over, I notice that I seem to have missed something Trump said, which is that he would kill the families of terrorists—or, rather, “take them out.” When asked by the moderator, he didn’t deny the charge that he would kill them, or explain exactly what he meant if he didn’t mean that. Why didn’t everyone pounce on this? Only Rand Paul did. I’d have to look at a transcript when it’s available to understand what Trump actually said, but it seems like this may have been one of the most controversial and inflammatory things he’s ever said. And it just slid right by.
And as Ben Carson sinks slowly in the west…..
So far this is a double grudge match: first between Trump and Bush, second between Rubio and Cruz. The latter troubles me because they’re both good men and I’d like to see them both in the Executive Branch. If not at the top, then in various jobs in the cabinet or Supreme Court.
The match between Trump and Bush doesn’t interest me much. I wish they’d both go away. Interestingly, though, I think Bush drew blood from Trump at 9:38. And that is good.
Loved both of Fiorina’s comments until now. I want her in some future government too.
I think Rand Paul just drew blood from Trump. But he’s coming down with a cold or something
Yes, I know the Supreme Court is not part of the Executive branch. Not proof reading.
Kasich just got asked a question. Who knew he was still on the stage?
The overriding theme of tonights #gopdebate is “DOGPILE ON THE DONALD!”
Kasich? Get the hook!
Sadly, Fiorina fades from being a serious contender with every syllable.
Best hair tonight, ranked. #GOPDebate as per @Nero
1. Bush
2. Fiorina
3. Trump
4. Rubio
5. Carson
6. Christie
7. Cruz
8. Paul
Then again Paul would be dead last on hair if the list were 1,000 Rinos long.
The D’Oh Award so far goes to Carson: “I’ve been saying this for over a year, ‘Wee have to destroy their caliphate.’ “”
Cruz ahead on points and speaking off the cuff.
Ben Carson: “Mideast weather, flaming caliphate with a chance of scatted boots on the ground.”
Or “scattered” if the inadvertent shit reference doesn’t help.
Whenever Kasich speaks I always think, “Never a drone with a hellfire missile around when you really really need one.”
Not the candiates on the Donald but the questioners.
Neo you sound like you re calling a boxing match,
very well I might add !
High points for “feckless weakling.”
vanderleun:
I use the kinder, gentler mute button for Kasich.
Anything that prolongs Kasich’s existence is neither kind nor gentle.
Anyway, I can stand the blatherfest any longer. I’m tuning out and going over to the World Wrestling Federation.
And with that I go quietly to sleep on the dulcet weak tones of Ben Carson……………………..
Rubio speaks better than most on that stage, with the perhaps exception of Cruz. But I can’t trust him because of his affiliation with the Gang of Eight. I just realized he’s the son of immigrants! Never heard that before.
10:26: Cruz is showing his debate skills. I wonder if this is winning voters?
Jeb’s beginning to sound like Trump! “We have to secure the border!”
F:
I don’t think so, but I don’t know. My reactions are not necessarily typical. But my impression is that Cruz is coming across as sharp and testy when he spars with Rubio.
Frankly, Cruz frequently sounds testy. Then he throws in those querulous eyebrows. Doesn’t help!
Cruz is sharp, and more than testy. Controlled, contrived, and on the edge of being smartass. He’s showing me the reasons why I’m turned off by him while at the same time I agree with his positions.
Ben almost got their on oil tariff on OPEC.
Turkey buys ISIS oil and we let them.
Chris was good. If Trump wasn’t in, Chris would be much higher.
Kasich and Paul were horrible.
Carly was good, but she could have been better.
Ted had a bad spot. Very surprised.
Cornhead:
I really don’t think anyone except us political junkies were watching, though. For the first few debates there was a big audience, but I expect a big drop-off for tonight.
I think Cruz’s attacks on Rubio might get a sympathy vote for Rubio.
F,
Rubio is one of the coauthors of the “isquared” bill which would grant unlimited Muslim immigration into the US. Demonstrable proof that he hasn’t changed from his “gang of eight” betrayal.
Rubio when first running for the Senate, repeatedly and unequivocally swore to never support illegal immigration. Dupliciously, he is working to make open borders the law of the land.
Unprincipled political opportunists intuitively understand that the ability to fake sincerity, to loudly say one thing while doing the opposite… is an indispensable ‘skill’.
Geoffrey Britain Says:
December 15th, 2015 at 11:44 pm
Anybody who supports unlimited Muslim immigration is a traitor who deserves the gallows. Period. Full stop.
rickl, Geoffrey Britain:
That’s not what the bill says. There was a very lengthy discussion of it on this blog here.
Kill the families of ISIS terrorists, blowup their houses, kill their camels and then salt the earth. Film it all and put it on YouTube.
Sherman would do it.
ISIS doesn’t have any protection under the Geneva Conventions. Same deal with the crew at Gitmo. Why is that so hard for the Left to understand?
Very, very disappointed that Iran’s December 15th deadline was not mentioned. Key detail.
Blown opportunity to shove that fact down Obama’s and Clinton’s throat.Just generalities (i.e. Horrible deal).
I see Hillary tomorrow in Omaha. Report on Power Line. It will be choice.
best Moment:
Carson referring to Priebus as Reince PUBIS!
The GOP is committing suicide with these group gropes where they attack one another and, while many good ideas and proposals are put forth, no one quite remembers who said exactly what. Only the attacks and back-biting stand out.
I thought Rand Paul did a fair job of defending his Libertarian positions and reminding me why I’m less and less enchanted by libertarianism.
Who won? Well, at least a case was made for a tougher foreign policy and stance vis a vis Islamic terrorism. But who had the best ideas and positions? I think I liked Carly’s stance best, but I don’t think she will move up. Christie was focused and direct – he makes me believe in him as a grown up who can do security and defense. Rubio and Cruz both know their stuff and can deliver the lines, but I agreed with Christie – their splitting hairs on policy differences does not get me excited. I think Carson might do an excellent job as President, but he is not convincing me. (He’s the black Calvin Coolidge, maybe.) Kasich could probably do the job. He has the experience, but his charisma is just missing in action. Jeb the same. Trump was Trump. He didn’t understand the question about the Nuclear Triad. If you want to be C-in-C you should know that.
I wish someone would really stand out for me and I could get excited. I’m still watching and waiting.
Cornhead:
Sherman did nothing of the sort, from what I’ve read:
No mention of killing the wives and children of confederate soldiers.
Plus, the entire South was at war with the Union. But terrorists are individuals who act as individuals to either commit murders, or they join terrorist groups to do the same. They often don’t have anything to do with their families afterwards, and their families have often committed no crimes other than the crimes of being related to them.
Israel has had (although I don’t think they do it any more) a longstanding policy of destroying suicide bombers’ homes. That’s as far as Israel goes; they don’t kill famlies.
Would you kill someone like Farook’s brother? What would be the charges? Having a terrorist brother? Or do you suggest no charges?
And I completely disagree with Trump that this would be a deterrent to anyone who joined up with ISIS or supported them. They don’t care who goes down with them. They simply don’t care.
Cornhead, then without Geneva Conventions, this is OK?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/prosecution-cites-revenge-motive-afghan-massacre/story?id=17646561
The soldier offed 16 family members out of revenge for attacks on his unit. He shot them, then stabbed them, then assembled the bodies together and burned them up. It took 2 trips from the barracks. Trump says this is what we should do. No doubt if elected President he will commute Bales life sentence. Go Donald! Yeah, let’s restore America’s greatness. F**k’n A!
Neo, is it my imagination or are conservatives going insane?
The Other Chuck:
It is not your imagination.
And of course it’s not all conservatives.
But it’s something I noticed many years ago, and Trump is just the cheerleader for it, the inciter, the whipper-upper. For many years I’ve been arguing against what I see as an irrational and destructive urge in those conservatives who have been fed up with—whatever you want to call it—the Establishment, the elites, RINOs. They are the “let it burn” people who now think that Trump is the vehicle for a productive burn. They are abandoning the principles they always professed to hold dear, but isn’t that what desperate people often do?
Plus, Trump exerts a sort of hypnotic bandwagon effect, and people are starting to jump aboard. He says something and acts in ways that in any other person would seem abominable, but somehow when he says and does it it becomes not only acceptable but desirable.
I find Trump and the phenomenon terrifying. And I don’t see it abating, either. It’s particularly ironic because we have so many other good candidates. But, as I wrote the other day, Trump is like a drug.
It’s just activism, Neo.
All we Trumped up idiots want is:
A secure border.
No $10/hit heroin sold to our kids by illegals.
All illegal immigrants given a path to citizenship, as in Go Home!
Fair trade, not free trade,
Restored military strength.
The end of billions funding AGW BS. It is BS, because they have to lie to make their case.
Stop Common Core.
Bye-bye Obamacare. I have a cancer scare and my earliest appointment is February?
Fix the VA.
Reduce taxes and simplify the code so that H.R, Block goes out of business.
Improve US competitiveness by lowering business taxes.
Controlling immigration from Muslim countries until a screening process is place.
I don’t see much in that list that isn’t conservative. I think I summarized Trump’s positions, as stated on the campaign trail, fairly.
@neo-neocon: You don’t get how corrupt Washington is. Trump does. He’s had to pay off both sides. As I have suggested, read Peter Schweizer’s book, “Extortion”. Except for Carson, every other candidate is part of the political gang.
My wife just got off a conference call with Tea Party people who are Trump delegates. She’s a Shakespeare scholar and her best friend in politics is a builder’s laborer who is extremely politically savvy and well-connected in our home state. Both for Trump.
Trump is connecting with smart people in the Tea Party movement and beyond. Maybe it is all BS and ego, but why would he bother? He could build 10 more luxury buildings in the time this campaign will last, and make another billion or two.
It’s been said Trump is moving the Overton Window. Topics which used to be Not Acceptable are now discussed. As PatD lists, these topics are not particularly outrageous, but finding them now part of the discussion is disorienting for some.
Many of the issues listed above are concerns for many people but they’ve been made Unacceptable by the Chattering Classes. The CC are losing their grip, which concerns them.
Neo:
I never wrote that Sherman killed Confederate civilians. I wrote that if alive today, he would kill ISIS families.
I got carried away last night. Upon reflection, I don’t think American soldiers would go on murder-revenge missions against ISIS families. And too hard with polygamy where to stop. But we should employ a total war strategy and revise the rules of engagement. If ISIS and AQ knew that they wouldn’t be safe in civilian areas, then things would be different. And I do like the idea of the CIA killing radical imans of their so-called religion. Blow up all of their mosques.
No more Mr. Nice Guy. Adapt the rules of war to present circumstances.
Cornhead Says:
December 16th, 2015 at 12:28 am
Kill the families of ISIS terrorists, blowup their houses, kill their camels and then salt the earth. Film it all and put it on YouTube.
Sherman would do it.
ISIS doesn’t have any protection under the Geneva Conventions. Same deal with the crew at Gitmo. Why is that so hard for the Left to understand?
%%%%%
The 19th Century had the correct popular term: PIRATES
Pirates = Brigands = Villainy.
A pirate does not mean that the fellow has to troll the oceans.
A pirate is anyone that is utterly feral — and recognizes no law above — just animal power from the hand.
Even before Geneva, the Westphalian accords established “unlawful” combatant classes.
There were a number of categories of combatants to be universally denied quarter:
1) Mercenaries. — With the Swiss called out by name — being the single most egregious offenders during the Thirty Years War.
a) Exception: Swiss mercenaries in the service of the Catholic Pope.
2) Combatants committing crimes against non-combatants.
a) This method of compensation had been given a bad name by the players during the Thirty Years War.
With the Swiss the single worst offenders.
[ For those short on memory:
( The reason why Switzerland and Sweden are the most peaceful nations in Europe — is because they burned their reputation down below that of death camp enforcers.
( Not death camp “guards” as no-one was being protected. )
Geneva merely extended the old understanding — the compact — to apply to chemical warfare — bacterial warfare — etc.
It’s been a terrible MISTAKE to grant Pirates any succour.
In particular — absolutely no Islamic anythings ought to have been permitted.
Absolutely no attorneys.
They should’ve been dropped in a black hole…
With nothing released to the outside world at all.
Burial in pig rumors ought to be kicked out.
( Burial at sea being preferred… why make the hogs suffer?
Israel has had (although I don’t think they do it any more) a longstanding policy of destroying suicide bombers’ homes.
There was indeed a long hiatus in Israeli destruction of terrorist’s homes, but about two weeks ago in the midst of the currently renewed (so-called) stabbing intifada, the Israelis began to practice this punishment once again. At this point they’ve demolished a tidy handful, although their courts have rejected a few proposed destructions as well.
I haven’t seen this debate… I’ve been listening to them while working, but your descriptions have been a big turn off.
It sounds like CNN made a big mess of it, which is what we expected. Trump continues to suck all the oxygen out of everything, but this isn’t entirely bad. First off, there’s the whole Overton Window concept many people are mentioning, and second, it lets the liberals have fun with Trump Derangement Syndrome while more legitimate (IMO) candidates are largely getting a pass.
I’m surprised to see that Carson is fading so rapidly. It seemed for a while that the media attacks on him were becoming ferocious, as if they recognized that he was gaining momentum, but now in the last month, I’ve hardly heard mention of him. Of course, I’m not as steeped in the media as Neo, and in fact this blog is one of my main sources of information, but he seems to have practically evaporated.
“ISIS doesn’t have any protection under the Geneva Conventions. Same deal with the crew at Gitmo. Why is that so hard for the Left to understand?”
My question is why does the Right not understand this?
My question is why does the Right not understand this?
One glance at our schools — from the elementary to the Universities — should give you the general answer to that. For how else would one know than to be taught? And what politics governs our schools, i.e., what is taught and what is not?
Pirates = Brigands = Villainy.
If anyone is interested in Trump’s comments about “shutting off the internet” – he pushed back against the idea that he was advocating general censorship of free speech – here is a good technical post on how it could be done to target ISIS specifically.
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/15/heres-why-trump-is-right-about-shutting-down-parts-of-the-internet/
sdferr Says:
December 16th, 2015 at 9:47 am
Pirates = Brigands = Villainy.
Note Ryan’s beard on the pict.
A strong message of dhimmitude as the Moooslime Orcs perceive it …
Not good.
sdferr Says:
December 16th, 2015 at 9:25 am
My question is why does the Right not understand this?
And what politics governs our schools, i.e., what is taught and what is not?
Students practice calligraphy by writing “There is no god but Allah”:
A Virginia school district is defending a classroom assignment that required students to practice calligraphy by writing the Muslim statement of faith, “There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.”
Female students at Riverheads High School in Staunton, Virginia, were also invited to wear Muslim clothing …
We have problems….
PatD, Thank you for explaining why Trump can be supported by conservatives. I do not like everything the man says, but the big, important stuff works for me. I also am in the camp of believing he will not be ‘bought’ by special interests b/c he doesn’t need them.
He is not stupid. He knows how to sell himself and he knows how to negotiate. I have no problems with that. When he comes out with a brash statement, I know that he is attempting to shake up the race and get the attention back on himself.
But every time he has made one of these statements, I actually agree with him! I still believe that the next Republican president needs to go hard right in order to bring us back in line. For too long our party has worried about appearing too right-wing, and we end up with mushy policies that give most away to the left. I am tired of it. Take the hardest right position you can, and negotiate to a moderate right position.
As for the rest of the debate:
1) My teenage son laughed at Carly’s explanation of tech and how she would do it differently. Her ‘algorithm’ comment in particular he derided.
2) Loved Trump bashing on Jeb. I thought it was marvelous! I also loved how Trump called out the booing in the audience. We all know it is packed with a certain number of RNC folks. Heh.
3) I got tired of intricate policy points about what each candidate would do in the Middle East. We all know it will change in a year’s time. To discuss it now with such boring detail was just goofy. Wanted more overall statements, rather than minute explanations.
4) Cruz did great. Liked that he dropped his wooden appearance from the first debate and talked directly to the moderators, other candidates and the audience. I also like that he avoided going after Trump. Smart move.
5) I love having Christie there. He always is entertaining. Too bad he screwed up in 2012.
That’s about all I can think of for now!
Huffington post is ignoring islam and asking why did the republicans not talk about gun control..
i wonder if they realize that if they can crush the 2nd amendment by other means, they make it a lot easier to crush abortion a later lesser amendment than an original one…
as far as the debate, its a wash…
meaningless as what happens later this year will matter more than anythig else, and the whole of the machine is trying to insure that they run against cruz who will be chivalrous and patriarchal and will let Hillary win by not calling her to task… they fear trump, because like reagan, he can roll back 20 years of hard work and games in one term – and they have no strings on him, there is nothing they can do that is dirty and that they can use to influence his choices OTHER than debate merit!!!!!!!!
more than ANYTHING else they fear merit and no dirt to hold against someone…
PatD,
Why would Trump bother (when he simply could go build more buildings/billions?)?
Because, as Neo so aptly put it recently, he’s a self-aggrandizing narcissist, that’s why. We’ve had nearly 8 years of that and look how well it’s turned out.
Not to mention the fact that Trump is basically a lifelong Democrat. I don’t know why that doesn’t raise giant red flags for more of his current supporters.
CV:
I’ve answered PatD that way many times, but have been ignored.
And that’s for the same reason that Trump’s past doesn’t raise red flags with most of Trump’s supporters: they are under a spell and getting a fix. It is essentially the same as with Obama, only with different style and different content. For many of them, anything Trump does goes, as long as he talks tough and mocks the people they want mocked and keeps them entertained.
Cornhead:
I don’t think that, if alive today, Sherman would kill ISIS families. There is no evidence for it, because he didn’t kill the enemies’ families, which is the only historical evidence we have to go on.
How we treat the foreign national families of ISIS fighters in Syria vs. how we treat the families of ISIS terrorists here is different, too (I was assuming you were referring to both). We already kill the families of terrorists abroad if we attack by drone and they happen to be in the vicinity, although that is collateral damage rather than by intent. Here, there is no way it could or should happen, but Trump has never made a distinction as far as I know (that is characteristic of him).
“neo-neocon Says:
rickl, Geoffrey Britain:
That’s not what the bill says. There was a very lengthy discussion of it on this blog here.”
Your prior post does discuss at length the H-1B and Stem programs. The different bill to which I referred covers much more.
“S.153, called the Immigration Innovation Act (or I-Squared)”
It is the contention of many that S.153, if passed into law would essentially result in throwing wide the doors to unlimited Muslim immigration.
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX)97% and Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL)80% are offering an alternative bill, “the American Jobs First Act of 2015.”
Here’s an article describing Ted Cruz’s take on Rubio’s failed “Gang of Eight” bill. It’s damning.
Ted Cruz: Marco Rubio ‘Fought Tooth and Nail to Try to Jam Amnesty Down the American People’s Throat’
In his interaction with other candidates and now as he proposes to kill family members of terrorists, Trump mirrors another politician who admired strength. This quote from Il Duce fits Donald Trump to a T:
We do not argue with those who disagree with us, we destroy them.
All you members of the the TrumpBorg, get used to it. This is what awaits you from the left, and deservedly so. You can go down the list of comparisons, from Trump’s scorn for weakness (see his attacks on Carson and Bush), to his hyper-nationalism, his penchant for large crowds and adulation, and his vanity.
From “WWII: The Essential Reference Guide” by Priscilla Mary Roberts. Page 181-182:
Mussolini’s dominant motivations were his personal vanity and desire for adulation; not surprisingly, flattery was a key factor in his undoing. He became captivated by his own myth of the invincible leader and came to believe his own propaganda that only he could make the right decisions and that his intuition was always correct. Serious discussion and study were not Mussolini’s style. He rushed to rapid decisions, often with unfortunate results. He also changed his mind often and precipitously…
Musollini never accepted responsibility for his failures, but blamed others…To the end, his chief motivation was personal power…
Serious discussion and study – NOT
Changing his mind often – at the drop of a hat
Never accepts responsibility – how man bankruptcies?
Personal power and vanity – his prime motives
Yes, Trump wants to make America great again, as Benito Musollini wanted to made Italy great again.